BMWSportTouring

Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon!

Posted By: KMG_365

Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/22/03 06:10 AM

It's here!! By popular demand! Leslie and Arianrhod show you how easy it is to do your own ABS brake bleed on the '02 BMW R1150RT!

A little background: Leslie bought Marty's 1150RT back in April with 30K on it and named her "Arianrhod" after the Celtic Moon Goddess whose name literally means "Silver Wheel". She has proceeded to become quite the rider and has even recently earned the title "Mama Hoon"! smile Despite still being almost a novice rider (only about two years), she's put well over 16,000 miles on Arianrhod since Easter! The RT just begs to be ridden far, wide, and hard--but putting on those kinds of miles sure can make those expensive services come around quickly! Arianrhod is about two years old now and it's time to bleed the Wheel Circuits and the Control Circuits on the ABS integral linked brakes, as well as the hydraulic clutch.

I had bled the ABS Wheel Circuits last week on my '03 and she observed the procedure closely. She said she wanted to do her own full bi-annual/major service this time. She'd seen it done once before and we have the shop manual from Motobins in the UK to follow along with all the required steps. For the record--I didn't even help (I think I helped break one or two bolts loose)--my hands stayed clean enough to take these pictures. Keep in mind, Leslie went to school in the days when "girls" didn't take auto shop--her only option at that time was Home Economics. She also didn't grow up around a mechanic's shop or hand tools, and is totally taking to this new-found hobby with some trepidation, but a determination that is MOST impressive!

So all you guys and gals out there who have been intimidated by the thought of doing your own services, or consider yourselves not to be mechanically inclined: sign up for the next Tech Daze near you! If there isn't one--start your own! If you schedule it, they will come! But if you've got an 1150 and would like to see what's involved in servicing those mysterious linked, power-assisted brakes (you know, the ones where, if you dare to touch them yourself will set a pox upon your house for generations to come--as well as void your warranty! grin ), set a spell, pour yourself a cold one, and let Les walk you through the fairly simple steps to saving yourself thousands of dollars and keeping your R1150RT running in tip-top shape! cool

This will hopefully be the first in a series of photo-documented service walk-throughs. She also just did her tranny fluids, final drive fluids, and fuel filter change. We forgot to photograph the rest of the annual and major service: oil and oil filter change, valve adjust, TB synch, throttle cable and fast idle cable freeplay adjustment, etc. Maybe next month when we get back from the UnRally! smile

I had made one of rosemab's funnel-thingy's (which he once christened the "Mini-Stan" smile ) from info on this DB. It works like a champ and MAJOR kudos to everyone who contributed to this fascinating discussion! I had ordered a few SpeedBleeders for my bike, but the sizing info on their page is incorrect for the '02's on. Still, I would HIGHLY recommend them! They take an extra step to install the first time, but then--oh, the simplicity of it all! The "Mini-Stan", a syringe with some tubing (and an old stock bleed screw stuck in the end!), the SB's, in addition to the TOTALLY slick catch bag with silicone hose SpeedBleeder sells, makes it an amazingly easy procedure! You should definitely have the BMW shop manual handy and read through all the procedures and cautions before you start! Motobins in the UK sells it on CD for a great price (and they have a great catalogue, too! smile ). I printed out the pages and put them in plastic sheet protectors (back to back! smile ) and placed them all in a three-ring binder. If you're uncomfortable with any of the steps, get help before you screw something up irrepairably! We offer this tutorial merely as a service to the members--don't send your lawyers to come banging on my door cause you got yourself in over your head. laugh RTFM! rofl

Here are the main specialized tools of the trade you'll need to make the job easier:




The Mini-Stan, a 60cc syringe with 8" or so of 1/4" I.D. X 3/8" O.D. vinyl tubing and the stock 8mmX 1.25 bleed screw stuck in the end to keep it from dripping, and the catchment bag SpeedBleeder sells to keep everything neat and clean.

And here is a fuzzy detail shot of the special order ABS "Bleed Plug" Part# 90886342541, Desc: "TOP". You can order one from Marin BMW perhaps you've heard the name S. Cary Littell, Jr.? If you're reading this you owe him more than you'll ever know. I bought a rubber washer (that I had to cut the middle out of to make fit) to seal it well, since it will be holding brake fluid above the level of the reservoir.



I came home from work one morning to find Arianrhod sitting stark naked in the garage! Leslie had already pulled all the Tupperware, glove box, air intakes and even the tank!



The BMW R1150RT uses a new concept in ABS brake technology that is very different from standard brakes, which you may or may not already be familiar with. Without getting into the fact that BMW has not felt the need to allow us the ability to unlink the two brakes--instead of a Master Cylinder mounted on/near the hand and foot controls that actuates the brake caliper(s) directly, the 1150 uses two separate circuits: a control circuit actuated by the hand and foot controls which controls the servo-assisted wheel circuit (under the gas tank) which then powers the calipers at the wheels. This means that the normal reservoirs you might be used to seeing, and the caliper(s) at the wheels are not really directly connected at all! eek The wheel circuits are bled every year (they are under the most pressure) and the control circuits are only bled every two years.

The reservoirs for the wheel circuits are on the left (port) side of the main ABS housing under the tank. The front wheel circuit reservoir is fore, and the rear wheel circuit is aft. The bleed screws for these reservoirs are on the calipers at the wheels themselves. On the right (starboard) side of the main ABS housing are the six bleed screws for the control circuits front and rear. The reservoirs for these control circuit bleed screws are at the right hand grip (in front of the hand brake lever) and at the right side rear (under the black plastic panel).

Here are two shots trying to show the six control circuit bleed screws (with the dust caps removed for clarity) on the starboard side of the main ABS housing under the tank:





See the fuel filter replacement walk-through (coming soon! laugh ) for details on how to remove the tank.

Remember, that since the brakes are permanently linked, all the calipers must be either properly installed (with pads!), or removed and securely shimmed! If you switch the bike on and touch either control, the pistons will otherwise be slammed together! Open the front wheel circuit reservoir with a 19mm wrench and draw off the old brake fluid. (The rear reservoir is shown here, but the front reservoir is immediately to the fore)




Remove the front brake calipers, push the pistons ALL the way out, and shim them securely in
place.




If your front pads are worn, your shims will hit the raised nubs at the ends and bottom of the calipers and they will not be able to keep the pistons fully retracted. If this is the case, place additional shims on the outside of each pair of shims, between the shims and the pads on each side to keep the pistons fully retracted when actuating the servo. Two shots for clarification:






After pushing the pistons all the way out, the brake fluid in the lines will be forced back into the reservoir. This is why you draw off the fluid first--to prevent an overflow. Now draw off this additional fluid in the same way as before, then attach the Mini-Stan and fill the reservoir with fresh DOT4 fluid FROM A CLOSED CONTAINER. When you break the seal on a bottle of brake fluid, the clock starts ticking. You should replace the fluid every year (regardless of miles), so why not start with good, uncontaminated stuff? Here's a picture of the Mini-Stan installed in the front reservoir and filled with fresh DOT4.



Instead of needing a power assisted brake bleeding device like the Mighty-Vac, BMW has thoughtfully provided you with a built-in, servo-assisted, bike powered brake fluid pump! Be vary careful when squeezing the controls! If you pump away like normal brakes, you will empty the reservoir in no time, cavitate the pump, and contaminate the system with air! Remember, air does not compress the way brake fluid does--you need that compressive strength to stop you--air in your brake system is NOT your friend! frown

Switch on the bike and wait for the ABS to perform its initialization and self-check. Crack the bleed screw 1/4 to 1/2 turn and bleed the left side slowly until the fluid coming out is nice and clean, clear in color, free of bubbles, and always keep the Mini-Stan at least partially full of fluid--then do the right side the same way. Remember, if you're doing the bleed with the stock bleed screws, and especially if you're not using the silicone hose, you must close the bleed screw before releasing the lever to prevent air from being drawn back into the brake line (which the SpeedBleeders' ball check valve automatically prevents!). Air can be sucked back in around the threads as well when fluid is not being forced out through the bleed screw, when you release the hand control. When you're done with the right side, bleed enough fluid down just until the fluid disappears from the stem of the funnel-thingy. Remove the funnel, and assure that the fluid level is just below the "MAX" mark. It will drop a bit when the caliper pistons return to their previous position.

Remember, if you are installing SpeedBleeders: since the system is not closed, and the calipers are below the level of the reservoir, when you remove the stock bleed screw, the brake fluid will leak out. Just wrap paper towels around the calipers, quickly swap the stock screw for the SB--being careful to not cross-thread it in the process--and carefully wipe off the spilled brake fluid. The first few threads on the SpeedBleeders do not have any thread sealant on them for this reason. Tighten the SB down carefully, feeling for the difference between thread sealant compound resistance and over-torqueing/stripped resistance. The bleed screws only call for 7Nm of torque to fully seat.

After the front calipers are bled, remove the shims and re-install the calipers. Switch the bike on again, wait for the ABS to cycle and then bed in the pads against the rotors. Depending on the wear on the pads, if the fluid drops significantly in the reservoir, top it off to the "MAX" mark again, then close the reservoir cap. Once the front calipers are completely finished, the back is done the same way.




Stay tuned for scenes from our next show: Bleeding the ABS Control Circuit on the R1150RT! cool


Posted By: Limecreek

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/22/03 12:20 PM

This is excellent Jamie! I am looking forward to part 2 and it's just in time to use for our Austin Tech Days, with your permission of course.
Posted By: Marty Hill

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/22/03 02:42 PM

Great job Les. Mucho thanks but I'm still coming your way to get the job done under proper supervision. Printed out the page. Did I see dirt under the fuel tank. It was clean at 27k.
Posted By: StretchMark

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/22/03 02:56 PM

Well done! Perfect timing!
We will be duplicating this on my at Chis K's Nov 1 tech day in Conyers, GA.

Posted By: MikeC

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/22/03 07:26 PM

Limecreek, what's this about an Austin Tec-day? Tell me more please.
Posted By: mikewarax

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/22/03 07:43 PM

Excellent post! Can't wait to do mine at next service interval.
Posted By: Sean

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/22/03 08:28 PM

Way to go you Leslie, that's excellent! Great write-up Jamie! Very detailed in your documentation of this event.
Posted By: Kenny2

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/22/03 10:14 PM

Great, no EXCELLENT walk through. Thanks, Leslie .....and Jamie for the pictures.


Okay, there is another thread to nominate members for their service "Above and Beyond" to the members of this board. Gee this is the second, no third...wait, mmmmm...fifth reason to nominate Leslie and Jamie.

(not trying to hijack).
Posted By: Haynes

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/22/03 10:15 PM

Thanks for taking the time to post all of this.
My last brake fluid change cost me (AUS)$160.
I'll spend a few hours getting this stuff together and do it all myself next time.
If I have any trouble, can you two come over and help?

Posted By: rozemab

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/22/03 10:16 PM

Nice work!
Posted By: Les is more

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/22/03 10:23 PM

Quote:


If I have any trouble, can you two come over and help?





No problem! We'll just have Jim Moore drop us off!
Posted By: Bill Dennes

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/22/03 11:21 PM

A really fine job of describing that voodoo job! No small effort on your parts to do it that well, I imagine. Thank you!

In the step "draining the rear wheel reservoir," did you take the cap off and dunk the hose end of the syringe into the reservoir?
Posted By: JerryMather

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 01:30 AM

Do you have to do anything differently for the 1100 RT?
If not I'm coming over to your place and doing mine.
Posted By: RightSpin

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 01:42 AM

Excellent job guys! Looks like another "BMW dealer/technician only" myth disappears into thin air.

Hmmmm, what's next? Maybe the clutch replacement is within our grasp afterall.
Posted By: russell_bynum

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 02:10 AM

You two ROCK!!!

Here we have probably the last big mysterious service that the dealers assure you that you need a Ph.D in mechanical engineering, $200,000 in special tools, and a Shaolin Master to do and it turns out that it is a straightforward and simple process requiring only basic tools. (Shaolin Master optional for entertainment purposes only.)

Awesome.
Posted By: Win3855

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 02:22 AM

Quote:

it turns out that it is a straightforward and simple process requiring only basic tools. Awesome.


The only tool more basic than broken chunks of wood,might be a rock. Great photos and write up.
Posted By: KMG_365

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 05:47 AM

Hi Greg!

Glad you like it! Of course you all are free to use the info however you wish! I know I'm by far not the first to have done this and have learned much myself from others who have gone before me. If they hadn't posted their experiences and lessons learned, I probably would've continued to try to "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain . . . . " I would love to see any corrections/cautions/additions/tips/tricks to add to this tome for the benefit of us all! For instance:

I forgot to list the proper SpeedBleeder sizes for the 1150.

Front calipers: 2qty 8mmX1.25
Rear caliper: 1qty 6mmX1.0
control circuits: 4qty 7mmX1.0 (I would use longer ones to make them easier to reach!), and 2qty 7mmX1.0-Extra Long (the long stock ones are almost 5cm long overall--SB doesn't make them--yet!)
Clutch bleeder: 1qty 10mmX1.0

Also, unfortunately, though SB makes some metric sizes, they still use SAE stock to make them, so you need a 1/4" open end wrench for the 6mm rear.

Also, some metric wrench sets sold in the US don't have 7mm wrenches for the stock control circuit bleed screws.

Bill,

Yes, you remove the cap to the reservoir and place the hose (with the old bleed screw on the end as a flow restrictor/drip eliminator) down inside the hole and draw off the old fluid--THEN--push out/shim the pistons and re-draw off as much old fluid as you can get out. Remember the photos are just for reference and are not shown in order. Follow the correct order/procedure shown in the manual. I didn't take pics of each individual step to save time, as they would not look that different anyway.

Here is a detail of the syringe/tubing I made for the job:




And a detail shot of the ABS unit showing the front and rear wheel circuit reservoirs:




A better detail shot of the Mini-Stan:




And detail of it istalled:



And Jerry, if you've got the 1100's manual . . . BRING IT!! (yours are even simpler! ) The 1100 uses different size SpeedBleeders, though.


And lastly, if you want to see the photos from the rest of the control circuit and clutch bleeds before I finish the procedure write-up, go here.
Posted By: mm02czu

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 09:39 AM

Guy's what can I say, a great article and super photos. Why cant "professional" manuals do it like this. This a real service to the BMW community, many many thanks for taking the time to put this together.
I take it from one post I have missed some of your other posts, its time to dig out your others. This is what the web is all about for me.

Thanks so much, all the best from bonnie Scotland.
Posted By: Burt

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 12:05 PM

Jamie & Les,

Great job. I was wondering if it makes a difference if you take the calipers off and shim them, or leave them on the rotor. I just got the funnel and cap to make the mini-stan, and the speed bleeders came the other day. I hope to do mine soon.

Thanks,

Posted By: JerryMather

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 01:44 PM

" Why cant "professional" manuals do it like this. This a real service to the BMW community, many many thanks for taking the time to put this together................................" This is what the web is all about for me."

That says it all right there. This site has helped so many people over the years.

I'm pretty impressed with the two of you guys .
Now all I need to do is get the correct speed bleeders and you're going to see me on your doorstep.
Any idea what sizes I need? And will a Haynes manual do or do I need to borrow the CD from someone?
Posted By: JerryMather

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 04:53 PM

Where can I pick up the speed bleeders after I figure out the sizes that I'll need?
Thanks
Posted By: teecro

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 04:57 PM

Quote:

Where can I pick up the speed bleeders after I figure out the sizes that I'll need?
Thanks



https://www.speedbleeder.com/
Posted By: KMG_365

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 05:49 PM

Quote:

[ . . . ] I was wondering if it makes a difference if you take the calipers off and shim them, or leave them on the rotor. [ . . . ]




BEJ,

I looked into a way to leave them in place--it would be a LOT easier! But I couldn't find a good/safe way to push the pistons out easily while still installed on the rotors. Some folks have mentioned before that they don't bother to push the pistons out at all and just run extra fluid through during the bleed to try to dilute the old fluid trapped in the pistons (you're not going to use that leftover fluid anyway, so why not run it through! ). I'm not sure what the inside of the piston/caliper/brake line anatomy looks like and I'd rather get as much of the old stuff out as I can. I had almost 34K on my brake pads when I did my wheel circuits (about 50% worn) so I actually moved my pistons out a good distance and drew off another 50cc or so of old, nasty fluid after pushing them out, so . . . .

You need to be really careful you don't scratch/gouge the rotor. They are very expensive to replace, very difficult to have M/C rotors turned (but possible I hear), a gouged rotor will eat up pads quickly, and it would seem to me that stopping could likely be adversely affected. I don't think scratching the pads would be as serious, as they are a wear item.

I would love to hear anyone's brilliant methods/tricks for pushing the pistons out without prior removal. Especially with the caliper mounted Motolights, the removal was by far the most time consuming step. To add even more time, the Motolights come with a standard metric hex and the 1150 uses Torx bolts now on the calipers, so I've got one of each bolt on each side! Sounds like another project!

Jerry,

I've also heard that Pep Boys, and NAPA carry some sizes of SpeedBleeders, but I'm not positive on the 1100's sizes. I think the 1100's use 10mmX1.0's in the front, and you wouldn't have any control circuit screws to replace, but maybe someone who has already replaced the 1100's can confirm that here. Re: Haynes vs. Shop manual: I would feel safer having the BMW manual just to confirm everything (torque settings, etc.), but I'm anal, the Haynes doesn't cover my model year, and the Evo-brakes are a whole new animal. If you've got an older 1100 that the Haynes was written for, you might be okay. But that decision depends on your comfort level, they are brakes, after all. Brake bleed Tech Daze here? Say when!

Also an update: Leslie went for a ride yesterday and she really noticed a significant improvement in the responsiveness of the brakes! She said she even almost dropped it once in a tight turn when she used the old, previously automatic amount of pressure on the handbrake. Good idea to practice a few panic stops and tight maneuvers after a brake service till your cerebellum gets re-programmed!

Hi Bob, and back at ya!

Maybe when John Moylan gets home from his Tech Daze field trip to GA, he can set something up in the UK for all you chaps across the pond! Otherwise, I may just have to plan on another European vacation! (Hmmmmm, the European Tech Daze Tour, 2004! Got a nice ring to it, don't you think? ) I've still got to set something up for my mates Down Under as well! Maybe I need to get a side job as a consultant like David, so I can ride and fly all over the world and write it all off on my taxes! LOL!!
Posted By: JerryMather

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 05:50 PM

Mike-
Thanks, I should have thought of that!
Posted By: steveP

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 09:26 PM

Thanks Jamie & Les, this may just get me to try it. Always wondered what one did with old brake fluid. How do you guys dispose of it?

Posted By: Kenny2

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/23/03 10:50 PM

Quote:


...Maybe I need to get a side job as a consultant....so I can ride and fly all over the world and write it all off on my taxes! LOL!!




Hey!!! Putting on or setting up Tech Dazes...

"Will work for Room and Board... "

Let me know when the Tech Daze is for doing Jerry's 1100. I would like to watch.
Posted By: russell_bynum

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/24/03 12:04 AM

Jamie was talking about R1100RT brake bleed and said: you wouldn't have any control circuit screws to replace

There are (I think) 2 bleeders on the ABS module under the tank. I've never bothered to replace them with speed bleeders because I figured I'd get all of the fluid out with the bleeders at the wheels, but I suppose there could be some pockets of air or something hiding in there. The best thing would probably be to replace them with speed bleeders as well just to be sure.

I ordered my speed bleeders from www.speedbleeder.com


Posted By: RightSpin

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/24/03 01:23 AM

Quote:

Thanks Jamie & Les, this may just get me to try it. Always wondered what one did with old brake fluid. How do you guys dispose of it?





Steve, as the consumate environmentalist that I am , I transferred the old fluid from the catch bag back into the now empty bottle and tossed it into the garbage. I'm sure most auto parts stores would know how to "properly" dispose of it.
Posted By: mikewarax

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/24/03 01:55 AM

Quote:

Thanks Jamie & Les, this may just get me to try it. Always wondered what one did with old brake fluid. How do you guys dispose of it?




I usually just dump my used brake fluid in my waste oil container,which goes to be recycled.

Mike
Posted By: KMG_365

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/24/03 05:52 AM

Quote:

I transferred the old fluid from the catch bag back into the now empty bottle and tossed it into the garbage.


Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Forgetting for the moment that I have an obligation to report illegal hazardous waste dumping, I feel compelled to remind you that if you are caught illegally dumping HazMat, the fines can range upwards of $1000.00 (in California, at least).

Every city is obligated to provide you a way to safely dispose of your Household Hazardous Waste. I would contact your local municipality or county waste authority and find out where you can take it. The Fire Station is also a good place to start if you can't get the answers from the desk jockys on the other end of the phone.

My current bugaboo is M/C tire disposal. There are places to take car tires to be recycled, but they don't take M/C tires. You can throw them in the regular garbage if you first cut them into 12" sections (they float to the top in landfills!), but the steel beads are a pain to cut through and cutting through that much rubber is a smelly, stinky mess. A local M/C shop may start taking tires from non-tire customers for a nominal charge, but so far I'm letting them pile up for a while!
Posted By: mm02czu

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/24/03 08:53 AM

Hozabout a video of the tech daze, only the actual service steps to cut down the overall time, or cut into sections such as, valve adjustment, TBS, fuel filter change, etc.

Post it as various MEGs or all on a DVD available to members to encourage registration.

Has someone already suggeted this I don't know, but just think sitting some time before, having a run through some time before doing the biz, a shot of suggested tools, required spare parts, no more getting some way through and finding you don't the thingamy bob you require to complete the task.

It would be a lot of work I know but you end up with a permanent record of the work.

Bob
Posted By: KDeline

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/25/03 02:30 PM

Do any of you gearheads know if this is the same procedure that is used on the K1200RS?
Posted By: JerryMather

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/25/03 03:46 PM

" Hozabout a video of the tech daze "

Great idea! I know that Bid D was doing a video last year at one o these but, I don't know whatever happened to it.

This may be just the sort of thing that could make Jamie more a celeberity than he already is!
So what do ya think big guy you up to being a star?
If you don't host it, maybe we can get Mary Carey after the election to do the honors.

In any case I'll donate my bike for the procedure.
Posted By: StretchMark

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/25/03 05:58 PM

Jamie,
I had ordered from SpeedBleeder before you posted the sizes. They said the rear and the clutch were both 6mm for the 2002. I saw you got the 10mm for the clutch.
I called back again just to confirm the size for the clutch and they said 6mm again. Have you installed the clutch bleeder yet?

Thanks,
Mark
Posted By: KMG_365

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/25/03 08:30 PM

Mark,

The clutch of Leslie's 2002 1150RT IS 10mmX1.0 !! We just swapped it out with one of the extra 10mmX1.0's they sent me for my '03 (cause the 1150's don't use them in the front anymore!!). I don't know what's going on with Speedbleeder re: the 1150's. I've sent them emails with the correct sizes and even talked to them a few times on the phone recently. I can't believe they are still giving you false info.
Posted By: Micks_RS

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/25/03 10:09 PM

It was relief to finally find something about bleeding these power assist integral systems. I have an '04 RS but I'd bet the two systems are the same. Did you ever post the the control circuit bleed?
With your experience I hope you can answer a question. I'm putting a set of barbaks on and this may require changeing or rerouting the hose to the resevoir. What I'm trying to find out is what am I going to have to do to bleed for this situation? Hopefully, I won't disturb the system enough to introduce to much air (I know. Even a bubble is to much), but some bleeding probably need to be done. I haven't got the CD from Motobin but will have it when I do the job.
I'd appreciate any help you can supply. I'm new to BMW and realy want to understand what I've gotten myself into. Rideing is fun. I don't want maintanece to be a nightmare.
Mick
Posted By: Bill Dennes

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/25/03 10:48 PM

Mick - You should be able to install one set of bar-backs on your RT without any cable or hose changes being needed.
Posted By: KMG_365

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/26/03 07:09 AM

Mick,

I wouldn't think the RS would be that different from the RT as far as cable spacing/slack. "kowboy" had TWO sets of barback on his RT without having to move anything. At the most, you might have to move/re-do some cable brackets/zip ties. I'm going in to work tomorrow for a 72 hour shift (gotta pay for Torrey somehow! ), and I'll try to post the control circuits and clutch bleed walk-through this weekend.
Posted By: Uli

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/26/03 09:56 AM

Great post and good pictures!

I've bled the braken on my 1150 before and encountered no problems at all. My biggest concern was (and is) that a little bit of air might get into the circuit. Since the brakes are power assisted you wont't realize it; the pump will build up the pressure regardless of a little bit air in the lines or so. But when the pump failes you loose that and might have big a problem coming to a stop. To make sure that there is no air in the fluid I rode the bike at 60MPH on a staight road, shut off the ignition (the kill switch will not do) and tried the brakes. I was able to lock them at a speed of about 40MPH;so they worked fine.
If you have a dealer nearby let him check it with the MoDiTec. It's worth the little money.

Posted By: StretchMark

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 09/26/03 02:30 PM

Thanks Jamie,

Called Mike at SpeedBleeder and he corrected his documentation and will be sending me the 10MMx1.0 for the clutch. He also said he would get the ordering info on the web page corrected.

Mike also asked if I had any information on a bleeder valve that BMW includes stock on the bike. I'm not sure what he is referring to, but I told him I would send him an email if I found out anything.

Posted By: Micks_RS

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 10/03/03 08:25 PM

I hate to beat a dead horse but I'm back. I put the barbacks on '04 RS and, much to my disappointment, I need to change the the brake line from the handlebars. The 1150R hose is the logical replacement. But I still haven't gotten a clear response from all my research on exactly how much of this system I need to bleed.
I saved your Wheel Circuit bleeding proceedure for changeing the fluid next year. I didn't catch the Conrol circuit method. Did it get posted? Do I realy have to go through all that process just for replaceing this line? Can these thngs really be more work for replaceing a line than a car? As I said in my first post, I'm new to the BMW clan and want to learn all I can about these machines. I just don't want to spend time on extra procedures than are necessary for a given situation. I'd REALLY appreciate some direction. Rideing days are rapidly drawing to a halt in western NY. It would nice to get one or two more spins around the block before I have to stick this blue beauty in the back of the garage for probably 7 months. We tend to go from summer to winter to summer with only brief stops for fall and spring.

Mick

'04 R1150RS Pacific Bue
Posted By: John Moylan

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 10/04/03 10:24 PM

Haynes the dealer here just quoted a potential buyer of my bike Euro500 for this job......
Posted By: John Moylan

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 10/04/03 10:59 PM

Jamie,
This is truly excellent. Good reading in advance of the GA Tech Daze, that's for sure.

Can I ask a question?
  • You mention " push the pistons ALL the way out and using shims to do so, whilstl using 'retract' somewhere else. I presume you just mean pushing the pistons as far back into the calipers as possible. Did you have the cap on the reservoir opened before you did this?

Once again, brilliant post.
Posted By: Zip

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 10/05/03 05:39 PM

Jamie,
Excellent article, thanks. I was able to cut and paste it, color pics and all, straight into a Word document for future reference.

I've been comparing your methods with the BMW CD-ROM. The main difference seems to be that BMW recommends removing the brake pads, instead of removing the calipers, and using spreader tools and adaptors to compress the pistons.

Here are some BMW part numbers, from their CD:

34 1 531 brake resetting tool

34 1 532 locator tool

34 1 533 adaptor

34 1 581 container (for adding brake fluid)

34 1 536 adaptor for rear brake

34 2 532 ring spanner for bleeder nipples (I guess)

Anyway, your descriptions and color pictures are invaluable in taking some of the mystery out this maintenance operation.

I'll probably let the dealer handle this type of work during the warranty period, and pay the big bucks for it. But it won't be long until I switch to doing it myself. As you can see, I am gathering all the information I can to do that, and you have helped in that.

Thanks again,
Posted By: KMG_365

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 10/16/03 03:24 AM

Hey guys,

Sorry this took so long to get up. The Control Circuit bleed post is finished. See the Part II thread.

Mick,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. If you replace that front brake line, I would think you'll need to do a thorough bleed of the front control circuit. You'll be introducing a LOT of air into the control circuit system. You'll probably need a few cans of brake fluid and be sure to get all the air out of the system. I don't think, with the way the control system circuitry is set-up, that you could effectively do the reverse-bleed-with-a-turkey-baster approach that you could do with a directly connected master cylinder. Good luck and let us know how it comes out. It seems to me like the bar backs mod could wait till your riding season was already over, no?

John,

Yes. When I said push the pistons back, you are actually retracting them back into the caliper housing. Also, please be sure to read all of the instructions/steps carefully before proceeding: you first open the reservoir cap and drain off the fluid in the reservoir, then push the pistons back fully (i.e. fully retracted), then draw off the rest of the fluid from the reservoir which is pushed back into it from the pistons. If your pads were worn (and especially if the dealer added any fluid at a previous inspection/bleed), there is the possibility of overflowing the reservoir otherwise and creating a real mess.

Zip,

Glad to help--and nice job on the archiving! Regarding the BMW shop tools--just try to price those items! Just be sure you're sitting down! I would love it if someone came up with Nifty Beemer Trick #687 for fully retracting the pistons "in situ". It would save fully 50% of the work! Perhaps on "Maynard's" control circuit bleed next Fall, I'll look into a way to just take the pads out and shim the pistons out. Perhaps with the pads removed first, a narrower shim could be snuck in between the rotor and the pistons. Hmmmmmmm . . . .
Posted By: ygoslow

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 04/29/04 01:49 AM

Thank you for providing the information on changing the brake fluid. I followed your directions and everything came out great. I surprised the heck out of a BMW dealer in Maryland. I scheduled to have my bike checked by their MoDiTeC to check for faults just to be sure I did everything okay. When I told the dealer why I wanted the bike checked and what I had done you should have seen the look on his face. I was a little nervous while I waited I keep second guessing myself. Anyway it only took them about a 1/2 an hour and it was done. I passed the mechanic on the way back to my bike and asked him how I did, he said I shocked the heck out of him. No fault codes I was so proud. Thanks again you did a great job.
Posted By: ncsonderman

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 10/06/05 01:51 PM

When are the tech days in GA? I'm new to the BMW community and love to work on my own bikes. How many days is the training? Cost? etc.

Thanks
Posted By: ncsonderman

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 10/06/05 01:57 PM

Thanks for the confidence boost! I just bought my bike and it's due for the 12K. I'll probably have that done by the dealer as it is already overdue, but in the future will try to be my own wrench. I've done brakes on sportbikes in the past with nary a problem, but ABS It looks pretty much the same.

Any info. on tech days?

Thanks again for your time.
Posted By: Marty Hill

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 10/06/05 02:59 PM

Look in ride planning for the next atlanta tech day.
Posted By: ncsonderman

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 10/06/05 07:37 PM

Will do, thanks again!
Posted By: JoeV

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 12/19/06 06:44 PM

I have a 2004 R1150r Rockster.

My questions are:

Question 1:
Did you use speed bleeders on the six control circuit bleed screws?

How many speed bleeders do I need?

2 - front break callipers
1 - rear break calliper
1 - clutch
6 - ? control circuit ?

Question 2:

Does anyone know what size SB's I need for a 2004 R1150r Rockster?

Question 3:

Is it worth paying $60 for the ministan funnel thingy at
http://www.diymoto.com/funnel.htm

or is it just as easy to make a good one with from bits found at a local hardware store? I could imagine it might be easier to pay the $60 but what have others discovered?

Question 4:

Is the reason you removed the callipers and shimmed the pads back was to get as much fluid as possible out of the callipers?

Huge thanks for the great post!

JoeV
Posted By: Blue Beemer Dude

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 12/19/06 07:30 PM

Quote:

I have a 2004 R1150r Rockster.

My questions are:

Question 1:
Did you use speed bleeders on the six control circuit bleed screws?






No.

Quote:

How many speed bleeders do I need?

2 - front break callipers
1 - rear break calliper
1 - clutch
6 - ? control circuit ?






We spell it "brake" not break. If your brakes don't work, you break your neck. Get it?

Secondly, that was two questions, not one.

Thirdly, you don't actually need any of the speedbleeders. It makes it a lot easier if you are doing it yourself; but it is possible to do it yourself without them and and if you have a helper, then it's almost a waste of money. But you will need something for the clutch bleed, as I believe that just has some nasty old grub screw or something that makes bleeding difficult.





Quote:

Question 2:

Does anyone know what size SB's I need for a 2004 R1150r Rockster?






No, but I image that it's the same as for the RT.

Quote:


Question 3:

Is it worth paying $60 for the ministan funnel thingy at
http://www.diymoto.com/funnel.htm

or is it just as easy to make a good one with from bits found at a local hardware store? I could imagine it might be easier to pay the $60 but what have others discovered?





A friend made one for me; it's just a funnel, some RTV glue and a special BMW thingie that fits into the servo controller reservoir. That will cost you $50 for two of them, so unless you can find someone to split the cost, the $60 isn't too unreasonable.

Quote:


Question 4:

Is the reason you removed the callipers and shimmed the pads back was to get as much fluid as possible out of the callipers?





It seems to be. I went to a heck of a lot of trouble to make the shims and do all of that crap, but in reality you could just push the suckers back in and chances are that the pressure used to bleed the system won't be enough to push the pads back out, so you'll be fine.

But that's just my opinion.

Michael
Posted By: bmwmick

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 12/19/06 10:58 PM

BMW issued a 'tool' bulletin about wooden blocks that should be used for EVO iABS-I brake bleeds. They use 2" X1"X11/16" thick wooden blocks for all the R-Bikes. The K-Bikes uses 2"X1"X1" thick blocks.
They used these sizes to set the fluid level in the reservoirs. Supposedly, this will cause a low fluid fault once the brake pads are worn out.

Mick
Posted By: Ken H.

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 12/20/06 12:24 AM

1. You can. Personally I think the thread leaking issues with them make them more trouble than they are worth. I've come full circle and no longer recommend or install them.

2. See #1, but all 1150s use the same size as listed in the DIY post.

3. Yup.

4. The goal is to change out as much fluid as possible, and the fluid that gets the most heat abuse is that in the caliper. So yes, it is worth doing.
Posted By: Ken H.

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 12/20/06 12:27 AM

Quote:

BMW issued a 'tool' bulletin about wooden blocks that should be used for EVO iABS-I brake bleeds. They use 2" X1"X11/16" thick wooden blocks for all the R-Bikes. The K-Bikes uses 2"X1"X1" thick blocks.
They used these sizes to set the fluid level in the reservoirs. Supposedly, this will cause a low fluid fault once the brake pads are worn out.

Mick


I understand the thinking of trying to calibrate the fluid level to brake pad wear, but personally I think it is a stretch at best. More importantly IMHO is to extricate as much as the old fluid as possible. And that means pushing back in the pistons as far as possible, not just a predetermined fixed amount.
Posted By: Lineareagle

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 12/20/06 12:44 AM

One question, really only one!

Is the procedure the EXACTLY same for the '04 R1150RT?
Posted By: Ken H.

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 12/20/06 12:49 AM

Yes
Posted By: KMG_365

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 12/20/06 01:56 AM

Quote:

Is the procedure the EXACTLY same for the '04 R1150RT?


The differences are you need to use the later version of the Mini-Stan for the late 2003's and on. You use an allen wrench to open the wheel circuit reservoirs (instead of a 19mm open end for the pre-late2003's) and there is a filter screen that must be removed with a pair of needle nosed pliers.

You can make your own MUCH cheaper funnel by buying the McMaster-Carr funnel (~$5.00) and a #2 rubber lab stopper that you can freeze and drill out slightly to accomodate the funnel without stretching it so much that it no longer fits in the opening. This is a universal design that will work on ANY year BMW.

I also would NOT just push the pads out and bleed them without shimming them as the servos are very strong. If you're not VERY careful on the brake lever (and time it carefully with opening the bleed screw), you could either slam the pads back hard against the rotors (if they're still installed or blow the pistons out of the calipers if not) or the old fluid could also fill back in the calipers' pistons behind the pads--negating any benefit. I've measured as much as an additional 70-80 ml of fluid removed from behind the pistons of the front calipers using slightly worn pads!

I usually time my pad swaps with annual brake bleeds to avoid the low level warning. This is especially important in the pre-late 2003's and the front wheel circuit reservoir holds much less fluid. They increased the holding capacity of the front reservoir in the later models to help avoid this problem. When I finish the bleed, I remove the shims and re-bed the pads in before I do a final top-up of the fluid level. This assures that not only do I get all of the trapped fluid out of the pistons, but I also have the maximum amount of fluid left in the reservoir after the pistons are filled to allow for additional pad wear (important when re-installing worn pads). During an annual service, I also usually pull a set of pads early if it looks like they won't make it a whole year to the next annual service. This way I have a worn set on hand to swap out if I'm heading out across country and am concerned that the existing ones won't make it until the next upcoming annual service. I could also just push the pistons all the way out and shove new ones in, but if I topped it off for worn pads I'll get a LOT of fluid coming out the drain hose by the right footpeg. It'll make a mess and can dribble for days.
Posted By: JoeV

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 12/20/06 04:54 PM

Huge thanks!

Now I can bleed the bloody unbroken brakes so they won't break, when the brake lever is applied, without going broke.

P.S.

breaker. a tool or machine for breaking up flax or hemp, to separate the fiber.

Maybe I could spell better if I hadn't been breaking so much hemp in the '70s!
Posted By: co_g30

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 11/11/07 02:54 AM

Thanks for the information on this posting, the pdf that's mentioned in advrider.com by Jamie, Jim VonBaden's dvds and not a small amount of luck I was able to do the wheel circuit brake bleed on my 2004 R1150RT along with replacing the fuel filter.

Careful of the caps that cover the reservoirs on the abs module, they're delicate and finger tight is definitely enough!

Turkey baster my wife got me eroded rapidly when in contact with the brake fluid, make sure the one you use can take exposure to this stuff.

The stock fuel line clamps from BMW are a pain, replaced them with fuel injection rated clamps that you screw tight.

Don't mix up the two hoses that connect to the fuel pump assembly from within the gas tank! Oh, and a sharpie pen marking on them is useless when you let the hose fall back into the gas tank and the gas that's there.

Great learning experience for me. Thanks Jamie for the posting and the answers you provided via PM.

Details in the blog.
Posted By: prhkgh

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 02/08/09 04:35 AM

BEGIN QUOTE: I had ordered a few SpeedBleeders for my bike, but the sizing info on their page is incorrect for the '02's on. END QUOTE.

Does anyone know the correct speedbleeders for a 2002 R1150RT (or RT-P?)

I tried ordering based on their webpage listing (before I read this post, unfortunately) and got 1010S for the front, WAY too big, and 6100 for back, WAY too skinny. I've written to speedbleeders, but it would help if I knew what sizes DO work on this bike, since apparently they don't!

BTW, this was a GREAT write-up, made my replacing of all brake fluids on my bike a simple process. THANKS!

Paul Hoffman
2002 R1150RT-P
2000 R1100RT
1998 HD Sportster
Posted By: philbytx

Re: Bleedin' 1150's brakes can't stop Mama Hoon! - 02/08/09 03:40 PM

The 1010S works for the clutch bleed. But you will need to "round off" the sharp tip a little for it to work effectively on the clutch adapter.
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