BMWSportTouring

Introduction and O2 Question

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Introduction and O2 Question - 12/12/11 11:16 AM

In August I bought a 2004 R1150RT and for the past several months I've been reading this great Board. It has helped me to do all the regular service required at about 30,000 miles, including a CAM tensioner upgrade to the left side. The summary of what I've been doing is here at, 04 RT Summary. The only thing I haven't tackled is the Spline Lube but will in a couple months. The bike runs great. Thanks to many on this forum and to your great archive.

In the meantime, I am experimenting with a few things. One is a Wideband O2 Project that I've started writing about. My goal is to richen both Open and Closed Loop mixtures a bit to make the bike as strong running hot as it does when cold, before the O2 sensor allows Closed Loop.

Moderator Edit: Please see Ad in Classifieds

I hope to have the chance to add to this Forum.

Thanks,
Roger
Posted By: ednowicki

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/12/11 12:04 PM

I know I'm not answering your question but this will take you a long way without alot of cost or effort.

Ed
Posted By: dan cata

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/12/11 12:22 PM

So you want to use this O2 sensor?



From what I see in there, it only has 2 wires, so it does not have the heating element in it. That one went down on my car and after replacement, the fuel mileage was better. Are you sure you want to do this?

Why don't you mount a 3.5 bar fuel pressure regulator, like I did? You will really feel the improvement then wink

Dan.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/12/11 12:47 PM

Morning Roger

Unfortunately the output waveform from a wide band 02 sensor is totally different than the standard narrow band 02 output so there is just no way your current Motronic fueling computer can in any way use a wide band 02's output.

In a nutshell the current narrow band 02 works more like a switch than a real sensor. The wide band has a more linear output that your current fueling computer will just ignore after a very short time in operation.

Your current Motronic needs an 02 input that toggles across .5 volts as kind of a yes/no signal. So if it sees the input signal from a wide band it will just assume a defective 02 sensor.

If it was an easy thing to fool the older narrow band fueling computers into using a wide band sensor's output the internet would be full of such devices to update older fuel injection systems.

If you want your 04 1500RT to run a bit richer just unplug your stock 02 sensor as that will force open loop operation & take away the stock 02 control. Open loop uses the base fueling map trimmed by input from the other engine sensor inputs (but no 02 sensor control)

Or if you want some control over the fueling richness either add a Techlusion fuel controller or add a Power Commander.

The Techlusion works in conjunction with your present narrow band 02 sensor then spoofs the 02 signal when it needs to add extra fuel.

The Power Commander needs the stock narrow band 02 disconnected to operate. You can add a wide band to the Power Commander but it doesn't use the wide band to fuel to, it just uses the wide band as a input device to initially learn from.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/12/11 03:09 PM

Originally Posted By: dan cata
So you want to use this O2 sensor?


From what I see in there, it only has 2 wires, so it does not have the heating element in it. That one went down on my car and after replacement, the fuel mileage was better. Are you sure you want to do this?

Why don't you mount a 3.5 bar fuel pressure regulator, like I did? You will really feel the improvement then wink

Dan.


Dan, That is the unit. The Bosch Wideband with that is 4/5 wire and plugs into the LC-1.

The LC-1 has a wideband output AND a simulated-programmable Narrow Band output. In order to make use of the Narrow output, I need to attach a connector like the one on the orignial Narrow Band O2.

Boosting the pressure or bigger injector nozzles would richen the Open Loop mixture but once the bike goes closed loop, which it does half or more of the time, the AFR goes back to stoichiometric about 14.1:1 for the E10 fuel we get up here.

I have used a BoosterPlug to slightly enrichen the Open Loop mixture. It is the Closed Loop mixture I'm looking to slightly alter.

Originally Posted By: ednowicki
I know I'm not answering your question but this will take you a long way without alot of cost or effort.

Ed


Ed, Thanks. I've studied the Techlusion products and they're not what I'm looking for. I think the Motronic is pretty good, just a bit lean in Closed Loop mode.

The LC-1 has a Narrow Band output and I'll program Lambda (AFR) down from 1.0 in small steps. This way I'll have control over the closed loop fueling ratio but still keep all the functions of the Motronic intact.

The BoosterPlug is interesting. It only affects Open Loop modes but its 6% enrichment just about matches the 4% enleanment of E10 fuel. So I think Open Loop is good just now.


Originally Posted By: dirtrider
Morning Roger

Unfortunately the output waveform from a wide band 02 sensor is totally different than the standard narrow band 02 output so there is just no way your current Motronic fueling computer can in any way use a wide band 02's output.

In a nutshell the current narrow band 02 works more like a switch than a real sensor. The wide band has a more linear output that your current fueling computer will just ignore after a very short time in operation.

Your current Motronic needs an 02 input that toggles across .5 volts as kind of a yes/no signal. So if it sees the input signal from a wide band it will just assume a defective 02 sensor.

If it was an easy thing to fool the older narrow band fueling computers into using a wide band sensor's output the internet would be full of such devices to update older fuel injection systems.

If you want your 04 1500RT to run a bit richer just unplug your stock 02 sensor as that will force open loop operation & take away the stock 02 control. Open loop uses the base fueling map trimmed by input from the other engine sensor inputs (but no 02 sensor control)

Or if you want some control over the fueling richness either add a Techlusion fuel controller or add a Power Commander.

The Techlusion works in conjunction with your present narrow band 02 sensor then spoofs the 02 signal when it needs to add extra fuel.

The Power Commander needs the stock narrow band 02 disconnected to operate. You can add a wide band to the Power Commander but it doesn't use the wide band to fuel to, it just uses the wide band as a input device to initially learn from.


Good Morning D.R,

There are two outputs from an LC-1:

1) programmable Narrow Band output, sharp transition 0V to 1V, that can replace the stock Narrow Band O2. I need a connector to attach to this wire to plug into the Motronic. If worse comes to worse, I'll cut the connector off my good O2. This has been used on Motorcycles before. Zeitronix also makes a unit I considered, the ZT-3.

2) wide band linear output 0v = 7.35:1 AFr, 5V = 22.39:1. This will drive a small AFR gauge I plan to mount at least temporarily.

The Techlusion boxes are reasonable but affect the Open Loop mode more than closed. And it keeps the Narrow Band sensor so Closed Loop can only be Lambda=1 (14.7 AFR).

The Power Commander III USB is something I seriously considered. It uses the same Wideband Sensor as the LC-1 but adds fuel map modification capability that I'm not looking for yet. By taking control of the Closed Loop mode from the Motronic, it's a bit more invasive than I'd like. It interecepts the TPS, both Injectors and the O2 Sensor and Closed Loop.

One interesting thing I noted while playing with the PC III software, it starts Closed Loop AFR at 13.8:1 (Lambda=0.94) !! This is a big hint to all of us that the bikes run better with a Closed Loop fueling ratio nearer that number. I plan to start Lambda at 0.98 and work downward in 0.02 steps.

If you look toward the bottom of this page: R1150RT Open/Closed Loop Data, you can see how much of the time the bike runs Closed Loop, even going Closed-Loop-lean during acceleration!

I'm excited to see what dropping the Lambda with this sensor will do and appreciate everyone's support and interest. Below is a chart of one of the graphs from the above link.

RB


Posted By: dan cata

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/12/11 03:13 PM

Roger, as a side not, in the future, if you press Alt+Print Screen it will only take a screenshot of just your active window and not of all the comp screen, in case you don't want to share what programs were you running at that time or other info like that wink

Dan.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/12/11 03:33 PM

Originally Posted By: dan cata
Roger, as a side not, in the future, if you press Alt+Print Screen it will only take a screenshot of just your active window and not of all the comp screen, in case you don't want to share what programs were you running at that time or other info like that wink

Dan.


Dan, Thanks. There's no easy way to make a JPEG from a spreadsheet that I know of. I used PrtSc. In the future I'll use Alt-PrtSc. Roger
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/12/11 03:46 PM

Morning Roger

Keep in mind that the Motronic is a basic narrow band fueling computer so is set up to protect the catalytic converter above all else. (keep the fueling stoichiometric in closed loop)

My guess is if you try to drive it to a richer mixture it will assume a defective 02 sensor & quit looking at it then probably fuel to the open loop mapping.

I'm not sure how your add on LC-1 is going to handle the Motronic as far as keeping the 02 crossovers within the believable range. About anything can spoof a narrow band input but when the Motronic sees unexpected 02 response to it's fueling request it will only add so much fuel in a couple of enrichment steps before just going open loop.

I guess I don't understand the requirement to try to keep it in closed loop when you want richer anyhow. Just force it open loop then change the fueling to anything you want at any RPM/loading using a Power Commander.

The only place you really should have some closed loop control is at hot curb idle & then only if you want to maintain catalytic converter integrity.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/12/11 03:55 PM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider
Morning Roger

Keep in mind that the Motronic is a basic narrow band fueling computer so is set up to protect the catalytic converter above all else. (keep the fueling stoichiometric in closed loop)

My guess is if you try to drive it to a richer mixture it will assume a defective 02 sensor & quit looking at it then probably fuel to the open loop mapping.

I'm not sure how your add on LC-1 is going to handle the Motronic as far as keeping the 02 crossovers within the believable range. About anything can spoof a narrow band input but when the Motronic sees unexpected 02 response to it's fueling request it will only add so much fuel in a couple of enrichment steps before just going open loop.

I guess I don't understand the requirement to try to keep it in closed loop when you want richer anyhow. Just force it open loop then change the fueling to anything you want at any RPM/loading using a Power Commander.

The only place you really should have some closed loop control is at hot curb idle & then only if you want to maintain catalytic converter integrity.


For the several percent I'm moving the CL ratio, the Motronic will see this as a usual O2 sensor behaving in the normal way (but I will have moved Lambda and the binary switch point you mentioned in a way that is invisible to the Motronic). I will double check this with the GS-911.

Your comment about Hot Curb Idle is interesting. I've ridden several times with my GS-911 and Computer datalogging info. The Motronic goes Closed loop more than half the time, including during acceleration, once the bike has warmed.

My reason for taking the minimalist approach is that I believe that BMW did a pretty good job designing this engine and its fueling. The difficulties came when the EPA mandated 14.7:1 and the 3-way converter, and then compounded the problem with e10 fuel during Open Loop which needs a richer fuel table to stay on par with pure-gas.

Anyway, I'm taking small steps, will try to stay as close to Lambda=1 as I can. It surprises me how much stronger these bikes are just before they warm up enough to enable Closed Loop.

Thanks very much for your interest and feedback, I really appreciate it. I haven't seen this done on an Oilhead or BMW before but have seen some results of the LC-1 on a Harley and have talked to the shop that did it. We shall see ...
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/12/11 04:32 PM

Afternoon Roger

Obviously the BMW system is programmed to go into & stay in closed loop way more than at hot curb idle.

The reason I mention the hot idle closed loop is at most above idle & road load conditions even a slightly rich running system will run the cat. clean. At hot curb idle there just isn't much engine loading or exhaust heat to keep the converter fired up & hot enough to keep itself clean.

I think you are taking the correct path by installing a wide band fuel/air ratio meter but making it WAY more complicated than necessary by trying to shift the lambda point using a W/B 02 sensor & input spoofer.

Once you get your fuel/air meter installed & the fueling readings believable you should see that just disconnecting the 02 sensor & forcing open loop will get you pretty close to what you are looking for. Then if you still have a few sags in your fueling control just install a Techlusion or Power Commander & trim the fueling a bit closer to what you want.

I have installed quite a few Techlusion's over the years on a single spark BMW system & for the most part they work pretty good. As a rule the twin spark systems can handle the leaner narrow band control (if) all 4 spark plugs are working as intended. Lot of riders riding around with a weak stick coil & don't even know it.

I like the Power Commander better on systems that allow both spark & fuel control but on the BMW the Power Commander only allows fueling control so not a lot of gain from the Power Commander.

The BMW Motronic 2.4 system is still pretty crude in that it isn't a sequential injection system & controls both sides to only one lambda sensor.

On the Harley fuel injected system that is a different system with the newer ones using an Ion Sensing System as well as cylinder head temp input.

I really can't comment on that LC-1 system but if like other similar systems I have seen used on the early fuel injection systems the output is mostly ignored by the fueling computer after a time so the fueling computer goes open loop & the thing runs better so therefore people think the added system is fueling to closed loop & still making it run better.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/13/11 12:21 PM

Yesterday I pulled the tupperware and exhaust, removed the stock O2 and dropped in the wideband LC-1 O2 sensor. Also scoped out how and where I will locate and connect the LC-1 "computer". It looks like it will fit nicely under the tank strapped to the frame, in front of the ABS. Will add a photo later.

There are multiple grounds to connect. Does anyone have experience with the best location to add ground wires?

Also installing Beemerboneyard metal QDs at this time since the tank is off.

Once installed my plan is:

1) Ride with the O2 sensor function NOT connected to the Motronic to get baseline data ON AFR/Lambda.

2) Attach virtual-narrow-band O2 function with Lambda=1 to verify that it runs correctly and stays Closed Loop as per the stock O2 sensor.

3) Adjust Lambda upward and downward in small steps to measure its effect on warmed-up driveability.

RB


Posted By: dan cata

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/13/11 12:45 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt

There are multiple grounds to connect. Does anyone have experience with the best location to add ground wires?



Since you are so close to it, why not run it from the battery? If it was further, I usually find the closest screw that bolts into the frame and connect it there, but the battery terminal is the best way to go here, imho.

Dan.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/13/11 01:05 PM

Originally Posted By: dan cata
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt

There are multiple grounds to connect. Does anyone have experience with the best location to add ground wires?



Since you are so close to it, why not run it from the battery? If it was further, I usually find the closest screw that bolts into the frame and connect it there, but the battery terminal is the best way to go here, imho.

Dan.


Thanks Dan. That's what I was thinking too so that it is electrically closest to the Motronic ground. The main battery ground seems to go from there to the harness ground (buried in covering) and also to a motor connection under the ABS.

Power (12V) will connect to a key-on lead in the electrical box.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/17/11 09:59 PM

Yesterday I finished installing the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband O2 Controller on my 2004 R1150RT. Before describing the project and my first test ride impressions a couple points:

--When the valves are adjusted, idle set and the throttle bodies are balanced my 1150RT runs pretty well.
--My preference is that the motorcycle is as near stock as possible, maintaining EVAP canister and Catalytic converter.
--BMW and Bosch (Motronic, O2 sensor, ABS) design well and know more about these systems than I ever could.
--The aircraft that I flew for a couple decades had three main performance modes: Full Rich (takeoff and climb), Best Power (fastest cruise, AFR< 14) and Best Economy (greatest range, AFR > 15). Although all modes were "smooth", if you over-leaned Best Economy the engine would start to stumble and eventually ping.

--Ethanol fuel: The 2004 RT uses Open Loop fueling tables that were designed for gasoline with a stoichiometric AFR of 14.7:1. In the Northeast US, gasoline with up to 10% ethanol is about all that's available, which has a 14.1:1 AFR. This suggests that the stock Open Loop fueling tables run about 4% leaner than the BMW/Bosch designers planned for. (In Closed Loop operation when the O2 sensor is used for control it automatically corrects for the E10 fuel.)

--My '04 RT feels strong while the engine is cold. After warming up, the motor seems reigned-in a bit from 2,000 rpm to 4,000 rpm (and reminds me a lot of how my plane felt with a too-lean mixture). After warming up the Motronic allows Closed Loop operation with the O2 sensor which means the AFR (in gasoline terms) is toggling between an AFR in the low 14s to an AFR in the low 15s. And since the cylinders are independent of one another, one cylinder is bound to be even leaner than the other.

My project goals:
1) Open Loop: Richen fueling tables to compensate for gasoline with Ethanol added. For this I've used a BoosterPlug which claims 6% richer mixtures; and ethanol fuel is about 4% leaner so I'm guessing about a 2% gain richer mixture overall.)

2) Closed Loop: Richen the stoichiometric target by the smallest amount needed to remove the sense of leanness between 2,000 and 4000 rpm. The Innovate Motorsports LC-1 provides a programmable Narrow Band output to the bike's Motronic ECU input.

Project:
LC-1 Kit: Bosch Wideband O2 sensor, LC-1 Controller, Cables, Programming Software, Serial Bus programming input.
Also purchased: PC Serial Bus to USB Converter (since none of my computers have serial inputs)

1. Pull the fairings, remove the fuel tank (replaced QDs at same time).
2. Drop the exhaust, remove stock Narrow Band O2 sensor, install Wideband O2 sensor.
3. Install LC-1 controller on right side of bike, under tank on frame, near alternator.
4. Connect Wideband O2 to LC-1, routing cable using same path as stock O2 sensor.
5. Route LC-1 cables to left-hand side of bike, along frame, and make connections to power, ground, AFR meter (part of LC-1).
6. Route LC-1 programming cables to area under seat behind electrical box.
7. Connect LC-1 Narrow Band output to Motronic by cutting and splicing into the original O2 sensor leads.
8. Leave O2 heater wires connected to the stock Narrow Band sensor, temporarily, until I can figure out what the Motronic needs to "see" in order to enable Closed Loop and not create a fault code. Tie wrap O2 sensor to frame.
9. Program closed loop AFR target to 14.2 which was a guess about where to start.
10. Start the motorcycle, attach the GS-911, let it warm up, confirm Closed Loop operation and make sure there were no Fault Codes in the Motronic. EVERYTHING WORKED! (Photo below shows #1) AFR switch points, and #2) that the bike entered Closed Loop after warming up.)

The installation took about 6 hours spread over a few days. Someone experience could do it faster but it was the first time I'd pulled the tank and exhaust. I got out for a test ride late yesterday.

Riding Impressions:
The course was over winding, hilly, straight and flat roads for about an hour. I am truly excited by the first results. Knowing that I'm looking for a positive outcome I wouldn't blame you for being skeptical. I haven't collected data yet to back up my impressions. But I'm not selling anything, just trying to enjoy my bike more. Here are some observations.

--No hesitation, no feeling of being reigned-in or surging. No popping, pinging or backfiring. In brief, no negatives.
--Very smooth acceleration in every gear at high and low RPMs.
--Good roll on throttle response at high and low RPMs.
--Very good cruise at low RPMs (2,500 to 4,000). 5th gear was a pleasure at 40 MPH or so. 6th gear, from memory, was easy at 50.
--Smooth at high RPMs.
--Warmed-up bike using Closed Loop modes feels just like the cold engine--strong and smooth.

Still to be done:
--Clean up wiring
--Figure out what to do about Motronic heater wires (cut or add a resistor)
--Try many more combinations of Closed Loop AFR settings
--Carefully monitor Motronic operation with GS-911 (no error codes so far)
--Get an exhaust gas analysis after settling on an AFR.

I'm not sure how much I can get done before the snow starts here in MA. When it does start snowing, the bike will get opened up for a spline lube.


Posted By: dan cata

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/17/11 10:54 PM

Nice work, Roger wink

As for the heating wires, AFAIK, the motronic calculates the time since the engine was started and until it gets info from the O2 sensor, this meaning that it has reached the working temp, being heated by the resistor inside the O2 sensor. If that time amount is > than a predefined value, it will raise an error about the O2 sensor being bad. Not sure if this affects your current setup but you might want to consider this.

Dan.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/18/11 02:22 AM

Originally Posted By: dan cata
Nice work, Roger wink

As for the heating wires, AFAIK, the motronic calculates the time since the engine was started and until it gets info from the O2 sensor, this meaning that it has reached the working temp, being heated by the resistor inside the O2 sensor. If that time amount is > than a predefined value, it will raise an error about the O2 sensor being bad. Not sure if this affects your current setup but you might want to consider this.

Dan.


Dan thanks. The LC-1 is pretty fast. Maybe 20 sec. So I should be able to cut the wires and remove the sensor. How did you figure that out?

RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/20/11 03:00 AM

Over the last two days I've put a few hours on the bike. I have to say, that the slight downward shift of Closed Loop Lambda (AFR) from 1.000 to 0.965, has made a remarkable change in smoothness and low-end power. There has not been any sense of hesitation, in fact quite the opposite. I'm now running RPMs between 2500 and 3500 around town, even in 5th gear.

As far as the Motronic ECU is concerned the data looks like this:

Total data points: 4,000
Percent Closed Loop: 45% (same as before for the local conditions)
Average Closed Loop Lambda Voltage: 410 mV (right where expected, indicating good loop closing)

The new shift plots are looking the same as the earlier stock sensor plots. The big difference being the improved performance and the AFR meter reading 14.2:1 +/-. The above also indicates that the Motronic has been "convinced" to accept the programmable O2 setting and doesn't know that I've richened Closed Loop Lambda.

The next tests will be on the highway.

There are several variables still to be tuned:

High Lambda Voltage: (800 mV to 1V)
Low Lambda Voltage: (0V to 200mV)
Low Lambda Value: (how far below the 0.965 mid-point)
High Lambda Value: (how much above the 0.965 mid-point)
Target Lambda: (is there a better target that 0.965, implied AFR 14.2)

Filter Sensor inputs?
Monitor Sensor waveform.

In spite of what needs to be evaluated still, it looks to me like a slightly lower Lambda target (richer AFR) makes a MUCH smoother bike.

Will post up some charts later.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/20/11 03:36 PM

Here are some plots of several thousand data points acquired while running at 14.2 Air Fuel Ratio (AFR). The key observation is that the Motronic is operating normally, unaware that it has been spoofed to run at Lambda=0.965 which is an equivalent gasoline AFR of 14.2.

This an acceleration through a couple of gears with a warm engine. Notice that just like the earlier chart (a few posts back), the Motronic goes into closed loop while the RPM is accelerating. The Motronic doesn't know the Closed Loop AFR is 14.2, but for the rider (me) the engine feels much stronger and smoother because the AFR is richer.




The next two charts show a before (14.7 AFR with Stock Narrow Band O2 Sensor) and after (14.2 AFR with Wideband O2 Sensor and LC-1 connected to the Motronic in place of the Stock Sensor). Although the shapes of the curves are different due to how I have set up the hi/low transitions (something I will continue to experiment with) the key takeaway is that the Mean (average) and Median voltages are nearly identical (about 20 mV different). This suggests that the Motronic is controlling Closed Loop operation and is satisfied that it is in charge, producing the same average Lambda in Closed Loop.

Stock O2 Sensor


Wideband O2 Sensor


Next I will get some highway riding time in.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/26/11 03:30 PM

For those interested in the most arcane aspects of this project or who might offer some insight:

--Both the heater and the sensor are isolated from the case (meaning they are not grounded to the exhaust). It is a 4-wire sensor.

--The wire called signal ground seems to have a 100 ohm source impedance (more to be confirmed), and the open circuit voltage is 140 mV. Since the sensor is isolated from the case, this strongly suggests that the entire sensor signal is offset by 140 mV. I have read that the reason for this offset is to allow shorted and open leads to be detected by the ECU--makes sense. Right now I may have the +Signal going negative relative to the -Signal.

--I have also read that the ECU builds closed loop adaption tables so I should be doing a full reset of the ECU each time I change an LC-1 parameter.

--This signal + side seems, from research, to be routed to a dual comparator circuit that creates a +/- 25mV hysteresis window.

Although things are working really well, I am not convinced I am getting a good rich/lean toggle yet so I will probably go and get an oscilloscope so that I can look into all this with a bit more certainty.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/26/11 04:41 PM

Morning Roger

All 2/3/4 wire 02 sensors I have ever worked with use an isolated ground for both the heater element & sensor low. The exhaust system hasn't been used for 02 low (or grounding) since the old single wire 02's of the 70's. (it never worked real good as rusty exhaust system parts caused low side resistance issues)

I'm not sure what you are measuring on the sensor low but keep in mind there should be a very low current (@ around .45-.5 volt) output across the (stock) sensor all the time. The fueling computer uses that as a indication of when the sensor is ready to allow closed loop operation. When the fueling computer sees that constant return voltage it knows the 02 isn't producing it's own voltage yet. Seeing as the 02 never stays at a constant .45-.5 volts output when the fueling computer sees the 02 voltage rise or fall off of that .45-.5 volts it knows the 02 is hot enough to use it's output signal.

That is kind of strange 02 signal your graph shows, where are you trapping that signal at?

I would sure like to see the Motronic fueling command vs that 02 output signal.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/26/11 08:27 PM

Yes, that last chart could be confusing. It isn't a real time plot, just an ordered list of all the o2 voltages measured by the motronic as reported to the gs-911. That lets me know that there isn't an unusual signal pattern. I suppose ideally it would be a straight line.

I went back and made some more voltage measurements and sure enough the motronic puts out about 140mV on sensor low. The narrowband sim does go to high impedance and the voltage you mention is there before warming up.

Much earlier in the thread you mentioned that a lot who have tried the narrowband output of WB sensors have had mixed results. I can see why. The motronic takes a bunch of stuff into account to consider the sensor good. Also the narrowband sim is coming from what is in effect another computer so electronic noise has to be managed.

I'll rent a scope and probably look at lc-1 and stock o2 on a running bike.

As an aside, it looks like just a bit of closed loop richening (14.2) is going to yield a very smooth running bike.

Happy Holidays and Thanks
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/28/11 03:49 PM

A bit more info ...

More measurements. It turns out that the sensor does float on a signal 140 mV above ground. And the unwarned-up sensor voltage between sensor + and - is 450 mV. Any O2 sims like mine have to add the 140 mV to the lc-1 or other o2 computer. Although I'm still fine tuning, the bike is running strongly at 14.2:1 (13.7 to 14.7) Closed Loop. Will continue to report the clean-up work. The challenge is getting two sensitive computers, motronic and lc-1 to each love the new environment and for the motronic to be blind to it. I expect to refine:

--Wiring length
--Component positions
--Motronic heater emulation
--Electrical noise
--Simulated o2 rise time.

In spite of these planned improvements the bike continues to be smooth and powerful through all gears over a much wider RPM range.
Roger
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/28/11 11:00 PM

Very interesting discussion with data!!!

Big bucks were spent sorting out the map - can't be bad. Includes minor trimming for altitude, air temp, and oil temp. I'd say for sport bike riding, map is smarter than the O2 sensor.

Yes, Motronic "conserves" .45 volt stoic. So the obvious fix is not wide-band O2 sensor but an op-amp (powered by the sensor heater B+) that scales the O2 output. Simple enough.

I can see how a wide-band sensor can work with an advanced ECU to do tricks our Motronics can't. But I can't see any added smarts when it is connected to the old Motronic?

I wish all this talk about zero-crossings would go away. Yes, the Motronic output can't guess what spritz duration to use while listening to the sensor and so it is all-or-nothing, but the sensor is simply analog and never anything else, within its time-constant performance.

The other thing that really needs data is the continuing debate about just how much time a sport bike spends closed-loop. I think it isn't much for ordinary sporty riding, and that's OK with me. Data?

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/29/11 03:18 AM

Ben,
I have published additional data where I began this thread on another site, Here . Or here .

If there is enough interest I could add the charts here too. Roughly 45% Of the time during a normal ride the bike is closed loop, including to my surprise, during acceleration.

The lc-1 that I used has a simulated narrowband output that is connected to the motronic directly. Then I programmed a lower target AFR. It makes a big difference. So the added smarts come from the innovate motorsports lc-1.

Roger
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/30/11 12:29 AM

That Innovate gizmo sounds pretty helpful.

How do you know when closed-loop? Even on the highway, best place for surging, you find just 47% closed-loop and "only" 80% with a steady hand. I leave it to others to decide if that sounds more like dirtrider's point of view or mine.

Interesting data on the other link. The Motronic is open-loop when you blip the throttle (any idea how much???), But if you hold it steady WHILE accelerating, it will go closed-loop. And, the dumb ECU will be falsely lean: that's why I don't think the feedback Motronic is helpful for sporty riding.

You found the Motronic totally zaps some injections (not smart enough to be proportional, just all-or-nothing). The Motronic acts like a switch and the O2 sensor is tied to it, not the other way around as certain authorities have argued in the past.

Yes, it is a paradox that these boxers need a richer mixture to burn stoich-like. The old Motronic system with a narrow-band sensor has no way to discern what to do, except to have a scaling-circuit like your gizmo or as I posited above. Or.... if Bosch were to make a 14.2 sensor!

Thanks a million. Very glad to have your great work to learn from.

Ben... soon 51 seasons


Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/30/11 12:27 PM

51 seasons, wow, congrats! (I've worn a lot of tread off my tires too.)

The way that I know that it's gone closed loop is after examining the data. I'm riding with a GS-911 connected to the service dongle under the seat, and with a small netbook computer strapped behind me. Then I download the data into Excel and go from there.

It may also be that 14.4 works and I'll be leaning upward to see how close I can get to 14.7:1.

I was looking back at some old R1150RT promotional material. It refers to, and I quote, MOTRONIC with FUEL CUTOFF OVERRUN.

All in all I'm not surprised that 14.7:1 wasn't the best place for this model, it's pretty far off the best power mixture. BMW and users tried a lot of things to improve the bike between R1100 and R1200, careful TB balancing, valves, tuning, Lentini's Zero=Zero tune, fooling with CAT Code plugs, and even second spark plugs. There was also the class of BoosterPlugs, Techlusion, etc. While they can help, those solutions don't change Closed Loop.

When you look at the R1150RT map that comes with a PowerCommander (it has a Wideband Sensor), it starts with Closed Loop set to 13.8:1! For most PowerC users, my data suggests that its richer closed loop is one of its best fixes. Also, with it you can richen the fuel tables by the amount needed to fix the Motronic maps for E10 (or any other Exx) Ethanol-spiked fuel.

The Innovate LC-1 or MXT-L is a good product but NOT plug and play. I will try to write up the easiest way to install and locate it when every thing is done.

Fun Stuff ...
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/30/11 12:55 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
--

Although things are working really well, I am not convinced I am getting a good rich/lean toggle yet so I will probably go and get an oscilloscope so that I can look into all this with a bit more certainty.


Morning Roger

First off, thanks for taking the time to document & share your wide band project with us. This has been interesting reading & I'm sure an interesting project for you.

Yes, I would be interested in seeing that scope data also. From the limited plots I have seen of your 02 as filtered by the LC-1 it looks like there are long periods of the signal going to the extremes with no cross counts for that period. If the Motronoic sees that maxed out 02 signal with no cross counts long enough it will pop open loop & use base mapping trimmed by the sensors. Your LC-1 might be forcing longer open loop periods than the stock narrow band did.

Same with your acceleration closed loop periods. From what I have seen using a duty cycle meter on the (stock) 02 the system goes open loop on throttle movement (difficult to use narrow band 02 input on quickly changing load/rpm) but as the TPS signal goes steady but vehicle still accelerating the fueling quickly catches up to the 02 then the system starts reacting to the 02 again.

It would be nice to see your same route ridden with the stock 02 sensor feeding your Motronic but the wide band watching your fueling control, then the same route ridden again with no 02 input & operating open loop, then ridden again using your wide band system for fueling control.

If you have some riding down time this winter & want to remove your Y pipe let me know as I have some weld in threaded stainless steel 02 sensor "bungs" I machined up for a wide band project I did few years ago. You are welcome to one to weld into your Y pipe so you can add the stock 02 narrow band back into your system along with keeping the wide band in place for A/B comparisons.
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/30/11 03:10 PM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider
From the limited plots I have seen of your 02 as filtered by the LC-1 it looks like there are long periods of the signal going to the extremes with no cross counts for that period.


DR,

Pardon me for jumping in, but I think you are misreading the GS911 plots of RPM, TPS and Lambda. I believe the Lambda traces are not the voltages from the O2 sensor (real or simulated), but simply an indicator of whether the system is operating open loop (output = 0) or closed loop (output = 1).
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/30/11 03:36 PM

Morning Carl

Well that's sure possible. It does look pretty strange for 02 traces.

I would like to see a plot of LC-1 output spoofed 02 voltages as well as the cross counts vs injector on times, vs seconds (or some reference time period).

Hopefully he can get a scope on it then we can see unmolested signals.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/30/11 05:33 PM

D.R.
Karl,

Lots of good ideas and comments in the last three posts which I completely understand.

Karl is right, the GS911 is reporting 1=Closed Loop, 0=Open Loop. And to make matters worse in that sense, it can only take a sample every 650 milliseconds, or so. There are a couple charts that D.R. asked about that are voltages but they are merely a plot of all the voltages captured. I did that to make sure there were no "holes", that is voltages that were never measured. It is a way to check things in a environment where the sampling rate leads to "undersampling".

However, the GS911 has a function that you can use in the garage which shows sequential O2 points. I used that to temporarily fine tune yesterday. On the one hand, I now have the O2 sensor toggling much like it was with the Narrowband or the other hand, I now realize that I could have engineered the installation for less electrical noise and want to do that. Also, I want to see a real time oscilloscope output.

In the meantime, I will try and screen capture the sequential plots.

I can say with pretty good certainty now that I have a functioning solution. I want to work more to make it the best it can be and am thinking about welding another bung into the exhaust system so I can try some of the ideas I've had and the ideas D.R. mentioned.

When I finish, I think this will be a very good tweak for O2 switching point. And as D.R. mentioned, a very fun project.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/30/11 05:54 PM


Afternoon Roger

Here is that 02 threaded bung I was talking about. If you want to add that 2nd bung into your Y pipe just PM with your address & I will send you one. (a donation to your worthy project)

I would like to see a screen dump of your LC-1 induced GS-911 02 real time data. I presume you are getting nice .45 volt crossovers? Without enough cross counts it will drive the Motronic to open loop. If you have that GS-911 captured 02 data maybe you can send that to me in a PM also.

I have some GS-911 stock 02 cross-over screen dumps from a good running 1150 twin spark so I would like to compare yours to that.





Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/30/11 10:55 PM

I suppose any fixed AFR, say 14.4, will not be right for all conditions... and certainly not something fixed at 14.7. "14.7" has no particular sanctity except for lab work, and as you say, nobody ever said it results in max power. But when you install an O2 sensor that is what you must get. So neither closed-loop narrow-band nor wide-band PowerC are perfect so long as they have an set set-point, nor is a set map. The same argument applies to air-mass sensing. Some combination (along with maybe a torque sensor!) makes the most sense.

The "fuel cut-off" refers to a software switch which cuts fueling when the TPS goes below maybe .4 v. Many folks are unaware of that and when their TPSs are ill-set or they don't work their throttles right, get backfiring. It can be you are getting identifying some injector-off periods as arising from closed-loop operation when in fact they arise from that over-run cut-off????

Great thread.
Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/31/11 01:27 PM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider

Afternoon Roger

Here is that 02 threaded bung I was talking about. If you want to add that 2nd bung into your Y pipe just PM with your address & I will send you one. (a donation to your worthy project)

I would like to see a screen dump of your LC-1 induced GS-911 02 real time data. I presume you are getting nice .45 volt crossovers? Without enough cross counts it will drive the Motronic to open loop. If you have that GS-911 captured 02 data maybe you can send that to me in a PM also.

I have some GS-911 stock 02 cross-over screen dumps from a good running 1150 twin spark so I would like to compare yours to that.


Hi D.R., That's a generous offer. A bung came with the LC-1, but maybe not as well made as the one in the photo. For now, I'm going to skip the step of adding the bung. What I will do in the coming week or two is get that 'scope so I can see exactly what each sensor does. Signal quality is important to me. I'm also thinking that an RC low pass filter may get the characteristics to be more like the stock sensor, I'll have to think more about that, maybe something with a 50 mS rise time.

It took some experimenting to get it best for the present wiring, etc. but after adjusting the low voltage and the high voltage (accomodating the O2 low offset of 140 mV), plus adjusting the low lambda and high lambda (0.965/0.975 to get a sharp enough switch point), and setting the LC-1 update frequency--choices of none, 1/12 sec, 1/6 sec, 1/3 sec), I am getting good reliable crossings, stable high and low voltage switching, and good switch through 450 mV--plot to come later.

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
I suppose any fixed AFR, say 14.4, will not be right for all conditions... and certainly not something fixed at 14.7. "14.7" has no particular sanctity except for lab work, and as you say, nobody ever said it results in max power. But when you install an O2 sensor that is what you must get. So neither closed-loop narrow-band nor wide-band PowerC are perfect so long as they have an set set-point, nor is a set map. The same argument applies to air-mass sensing. Some combination (along with maybe a torque sensor!) makes the most sense.

The "fuel cut-off" refers to a software switch which cuts fueling when the TPS goes below maybe .4 v. Many folks are unaware of that and when their TPSs are ill-set or they don't work their throttles right, get backfiring. It can be you are getting identifying some injector-off periods as arising from closed-loop operation when in fact they arise from that over-run cut-off????

Great thread.
Ben


My objective is simply to find the highest Lambda less than 1.0 (AFR 14.7:1 for gas), that results in a motorcycle that performs as well after it's warmed up as before. In particular, no feeling of being "held back" just as it is shifted. A benefit I'm finding is that I have a bike with much more responsiveness at RPMs between idle at 3500 RPM. Something in the Lambda = 0.96 to 0.98 is looking like it will do that. Running with a switch point of 0.97 is giving excellent results no.

Understand about the fuel overrun cutoff. You are right, it is definitely happening on rapid deceleration with the throttle at or near zero. I did a test to see what would happen with the cold-start lever up--it will still go into fuel overrun cuttoff mode and shut off the injectors.

Thank you both for the detailed comments.
RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/01/12 01:25 PM

In the photos below are the settings for the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband O2 Sensor that I used on my R1150RT to drive the stock, narrowband O2 sensor inputs to the Motronic. To summarize the project:

--I wanted to smooth out the performance of my motorcycle at low RPMs and remove all sense of hesitation in the 2000 to 4000 RPM band, even though the bike had already been fully tuned and balanced and didn't seem to have any surging.

--My test runs with the GS-911 showed that the R1150 spends almost half its time Closed Loop, meaning using the O2 sensor and toggling the Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) just above and just below 14.7:1. This is a leaner mixture than the so-called Best Power mixture for most engines, and I felt it likely the cause of a "holding back" or lean-ness that I felt in the 2000 to 4000 range.

--I wanted to allow the Motronic to operate the bike as it was designed to do, including Closed Loop with an O2 sensor and CAT.

--I replaced the stock O2 sensor which only allows Closed Loop AFR of 14.7:1 (gasoline) with a Wideband sensor who's AFR could be programmed to something between 13.0:1 and 15.0:1 so that I could find an AFR near 14.7:1 at which the bike ran its best. The product I chose is the Innovate Motorsports LC-1.

At this point using a target AFR of 14.4:1 (actually Lambda = 0.97), the project seems successful. Now the bike seems smooth and powerful from 1,500 RPM to 6,000 RPM--no surge, no hesitation, no stumbling, no "holding back". I can easily drive local roads in 5th gear and now regularly run RPMs around town between 2,500 and 3,500.

The installation is complete and stable but the LC-1 is not a Plug 'n Play solution. You have to connect it to power and ground, and have to connect it to the narrowband input wires of the stock O2 sensor. I did it quickly and left 5' of cable attached to the LC-1. I will cut that back, reroute the wires and check noise levels with an oscilloscope to determine the best wire routing. I will also rethink where the LC-1 (weatherproof) gets located.

Below are some screenshots of the LC-1 software and also one from the GS-911 showing its reports of how the Motronic sees the voltage toggling. It looks pretty good.

Thanks to everyone for the comments and support.
Happy Riding in the New Year,
RB








Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/02/12 08:53 AM

The cold-start lever is just a mechanical gizmo that tugs the throttle cables and, therefore, opens the butterflies and TPS.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/02/12 12:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
The cold-start lever is just a mechanical gizmo that tugs the throttle cables and, therefore, opens the butterflies and TPS.


Yes, understood. I was interested if quick throttle off but not all the way to idle would lead to "cut off". It did.
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/02/12 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
The cold-start lever is just a mechanical gizmo that tugs the throttle cables and, therefore, opens the butterflies and TPS.


Yes, understood. I was interested if quick throttle off but not all the way to idle would lead to "cut off". It did.


As I understand it, the over-run shut-off is tied to TPS voltage. Couldn't be the Hall sensor speed, as least as the primary determinant.

I've never seen a definitive opinion about the voltage, but I suppose it is around .42 volts (pretty close to tight closed), which provides some slack for mis-adjusted TPSs. Maybe dirtrider knows for sure.

Another factor, a human factor, not introduced so far is just how often and how far riders jiggle their throttles (which opens the loop, if the jiggle is big enough... nobody know how big is big enough). Any time I've tried to judge on, say ordinary highway riding, it is like 8-12 times a minute. Of course, I have a throttle counter-force spring, so my throttle is vastly more fluid than everybody elses and I can smoothly roll-in even fine-tuned throttle corrections. (And my hand doesn't tire for a long time.)

In light of all your work and this discussion, what is your latest opinion on how and when and how much the Motronic goes into closed-loop?

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/02/12 10:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
The cold-start lever is just a mechanical gizmo that tugs the throttle cables and, therefore, opens the butterflies and TPS.


Yes, understood. I was interested if quick throttle off but not all the way to idle would lead to "cut off". It did.

T
As I understand it, the over-run shut-off is tied to TPS voltage. Couldn't be the Hall sensor speed, as least as the primary determinant.

I've never seen a definitive opinion about the voltage, but I suppose it is around .42 volts (pretty close to tight closed), which provides some slack for mis-adjusted TPSs. Maybe dirtrider knows for sure.

Another factor, a human factor, not introduced so far is just how often and how far riders jiggle their throttles (which opens the loop, if the jiggle is big enough... nobody know how big is big enough). Any time I've tried to judge on, say ordinary highway riding, it is like 8-12 times a minute. Of course, I have a throttle counter-force spring, so my throttle is vastly more fluid than everybody elses and I can smoothly roll-in even fine-tuned throttle corrections. (And my hand doesn't tire for a long time.)

In light of all your work and this discussion, what is your latest opinion on how and when and how much the Motronic goes into closed-loop?

Ben



I would class myself as an enthusiastic rider. I like shifting up and down on corners, hills and for speed changes--part of the fun of riding. On the highway, other than when I am logging data to see what will happen if I lock the throttle, I am constantly adjusting to the conditions--the roads are busy around here.

With those provisos, the data I took on the narrowband sensor and then again with the LC-1 shows that my bikeold closed loop 40-50% on local roads and 50-60% on the highway. Enough so that it is a big part of the driveability equation.

Lastly, I'm researching the extent to which the motronic learns info about octane/e10/bike specifics during closed loop that it then uses as a modification to the open loop fueling formulas. Many vehicles do, thus making closed loop doubly important.

Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/03/12 12:57 AM

Thanks for loop update.

From my observations (and from some acquaintance with feedback theory), there's also a period of hunting towards the set-point, once the ECU decides it wants to try closed-loop operation.

Big question about just what is learned by the ECU. For sure, the anchor voltages of the TPS so the ECU can scale it. But quite a mystery what else. Moto One in Australia, my favorite writer, thinks there is a lot recorded. I doubt it but have no way of knowing. Kind of stupid and penny-pinching not to have non-flamable memory.

Ben
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/03/12 01:46 AM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Lastly, I'm researching the extent to which the motronic learns info about octane/e10/bike specifics during closed loop that it then uses as a modification to the open loop fueling formulas. Many vehicles do, thus making closed loop doubly important.


I'm not sure if the MA 2.4 Motronic in your bike stores adaptation values (otherwise known as long term fuel trim) or not. The GS911 web site states that checking and resetting adaptation values for R1200s will be a feature available in future software releases, but doesn't mention the same for the R1150s.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/03/12 03:30 AM

Originally Posted By: TestPilot
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Lastly, I'm researching the extent to which the motronic learns info about octane/e10/bike specifics during closed loop that it then uses as a modification to the open loop fueling formulas. Many vehicles do, thus making closed loop doubly important.


I'm not sure if the MA 2.4 Motronic in your bike stores adaptation values (otherwise known as long term fuel trim) or not. The GS911 web site states that checking and resetting adaptation values for R1200s will be a feature available in future software releases, but doesn't mention the same for the R1150s.


Thanks for the hint. Im going to drop hexcode.za a line. Also the yahoo BoschDME group.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/03/12 12:34 PM

Morning Roger

Thanks for the follow up.

That is an interesting 02 plot. Any idea what the time factor is? Also what was your adjusted fuel air ratio at the time of that data trap?

The cross counts look fairly decent (but still just a bit odd looking compared to stock) as well as the voltages staying within the mid usable range.

That LC-1 must have some very unique programming to use a wide band input but still allow the 02 voltage/crossovers to stay within the range the Motronic can utilize it, maintain adequate cross counts to keep the Motronic from ignoring it, & somehow keep the Motonic from simply chasing the 02 output off to one side of .45 volts therefore nullifying the 02 as a fueling control input.

It would be interesting to see the fuel injector commanded fueling plotted against the cross count swings. My guess is that the LC-1 is artificially producing the cross counts to keep the fueling computer happy then using the wide band input to somehow skew the 02 output signal's time at voltage to achieve the fueling offset.

It looks like the LC-1 has been able to find a way around the pitfalls of using things like voltage generators or op amps by artificially inducing "believable" cross counts that fool the fueling computer into thinking it is in response to it's own fueling command.

That last screen shot shown (advanced analog out setting). (interesting)-- Does that allow you to adjust the warmup output voltage as seen by the fueling computer? That's one of the many problems with using 02 voltage generators or op amps that pull the pre 02 warm up voltage off the .45 null voltage so the fueling computer tries to fuel to a cold unresponsive 02 sensor allowing the engine to run like crap during late stage cold warm up.

I'm also wondering how much your LC-1 adjusted fueling offset is effecting the amount of time the system is staying in closed loop during a normal ride. If you ever get a dedicated ride course set up to minimize the variables on a test ride it would be interesting to see if setting the fuel/air ratio back to 14.7:1 increases the time the thing stays in closed loop operation.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/03/12 03:02 PM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider
Morning Roger

That is an interesting 02 plot. Any idea what the time factor is? I don't know exactly the manufacturer doesn't say but it is faster than 650 mS, I estimate every 200 to 300 mS for a new point. Also what was your adjusted fuel air ratio at the time of that data trap? Lambda was toggling at 0.965 and 0.975 so using 0.97 translates to 14.25 for gasoline or 13.7 for E10.

The cross counts look fairly decent (but still just a bit odd looking compared to stock slight oddness probably due to sampling interval and non-coherence of sample times) as well as the voltages staying within the mid usable range. According to the GS-911 site, this is well within bounds but I want to get a scope on it to get a realtime view and perfect it.

That LC-1 must have some very unique programming to use a wide band input but still allow the 02 voltage/crossovers to stay within the range the Motronic can utilize it, maintain adequate cross counts to keep the Motronic from ignoring it, & somehow keep the Motonic from simply chasing the 02 output off to one side of .45 volts therefore nullifying the 02 as a fueling control input.The LC-1 has two Analog Outputs that you can program. I have one programmed to have high and low voltages that simulate the stock sensor and then I program the voltage to stay at the high number until Lambda = 0.965 then it switches to the low voltage. After staying low for as long is the Motronic wants it too, the Motronic then starts ramping the fuel until Lambda reaches 0.975 at which time the voltage rises again. About like a stock sensor.

It would be interesting to see the fuel injector commanded fueling plotted against the cross count swings. My guess is that the LC-1 is artificially producing the cross counts to keep the fueling computer happy then using the wide band input to somehow skew the 02 output signal's time at voltage to achieve the fueling offset. Not artifically producing cross counts, just staying in the voltage range for the Lambdas I mentioned above.

It looks like the LC-1 has been able to find a way around the pitfalls of using things like voltage generators or op amps by artificially inducing "believable" cross counts that fool the fueling computer into thinking it is in response to it's own fueling command.

That last screen shot shown (advanced analog out setting). (interesting)-- Does that allow you to adjust the warmup output voltage as seen by the fueling computer? Yes it does. However what I set it to is High Impedance. In that case the Motronic pulls the voltage between high and low to 0.45 volts, which I have confirmed by measurement and just what it wants to see.That's one of the many problems with using 02 voltage generators or op amps that pull the pre 02 warm up voltage off the .45 null voltage so the fueling computer tries to fuel to a cold unresponsive 02 sensor allowing the engine to run like crap during late stage cold warm up. I have many sets of before and after data, and the bike warms up producing data just the way it used to. Stays out of closed loop until about 140F and then goes closed loop under the appropriate conditions.

I'm also wondering how much your LC-1 adjusted fueling offset is effecting the amount of time the system is staying in closed loop during a normal ride. I have a lot if before and after ride data. It is pretty much just the same after as before. That was very important to me as I want the Motronic operating like nothing has changed. I just wanted the Motronic to have a "narrowband-type" input that changed under my programming.If you ever get a dedicated ride course set up to minimize the variables on a test ride it would be interesting to see if setting the fuel/air ratio back to 14.7:1 increases the time the thing stays in closed loop operation. I tried that briefly and it seems to be the same before and after. I haven't written much about it but between lambda=.94 and lambda=.97 the bike runs very well. I have also gone above lambda=1 and guess what? It starts to feel like it's running lean!

Morning DR,

Some answers to your questions are above. Also, here is a link to GS-911 Plots from the manufacturer.

There are many positive implications to this project. It is possible that a Lambda range could be found that kept the AFR rich enough to run really well but with a lean period that let O2 reaccumulate in the catalytic converter.

Also, I mentioned that there are two analog outputs. I could use one for idle and the other for everything else. Or I could combine the two in a summing network to get different shape curves. The more questions I answer for myself, the more experiments I think of.

Thanks for the feedback.
RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Updated Photo Comments - 01/04/12 02:45 PM

Here are some update comments to the plots.



Plots and Comments:

The is the plot of the GS-911 toggling O2 around the setting of Lambda=0.97 or AFR 14.2:1. It goes solidly and regularly above and below the Motronic switching levels and produced a steady stream of cross-counts.


This is the LC-1 first setup page. I left Stoichiometric at 14.7 (rather than adjust to 14.13 of E10 fuel) since it's easier to think in those terms. It only affects the display of operation, not the settings.


Here are the voltage and Lambda settings that created the best O2 toggling waveform. They take into account a 140mV low side offset that I discovered in the Motronic, and produce a sharp change from Lambda=0.965 to 0.975.


I selected updating 12 times per second as a way to keep the Motronic from over-responding to the very sensitive LC-1.



Here are some usual plots with stock O2 sensors according to the GS-911 manufacturer. You can see that the usual plots are a bit jagged. This is because the GS-911 doesn't produce realtime data points, just every 200mS or so. If you go their site they also show some others, including bad plots.: [url="http://www.hexcode.co.za/techinfo/lambda"]http://www.hexcode.co.za/techinfo/lambda[/url]




Posted By: roger 04 rt

Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 01/30/12 10:40 PM

Today I got a chance to pull the fairings, lift the tank and disconnect the O2 Sensor input to the Motronic. My goal was to see what the Open Loop Air Fuel Ratios (AFR) for the Motronic 2.4 looked like.

As a reminder, I have a Wideband LC-1 installed in place of the normal Narrowband O2 sensor. Usually it is set to 14.2:1, so when the motorcycle goes closed loop, I can't tell what the Motronic would do on its own, with the O2 Sensor disconnected.

I also pulled the Pink CAT Code Plug and looked at those results as well.

Procedure:
1) Disconnect Motronic O2 Sensor
2) Disconnect BoosterPlug
3) Reset Motronic by pulling Fuse 5, etc.

Results:
From Cold Engine (40F) to Warm Engine (140F-ish): AFR Range 13:1 to 14.7:1
Warm Engine Cruise (3rd, 4th, 5th gears; 3000 to 5000 RPM): AFR Range 14.5:1 to 15.2:1

Comments: There was no sign of a rich Limp Home Mode. Without O2 Sensor connected, mixtures got leaner than 14.7:1.

Next Test:
1)Pulled Pink CAT Code Plug
2)No BoosterPlug
3)O2 Sensor Disconnected
4)Motronic Reset

Results:
Warm Engine Cruise (3rd, 4th, 5th gears; 3000 to 5000 RPM): AFR Range 14.7:1 to 15.5:1.

Comments: Pulling the Pink CAT Code plug definitely created leaner mixtures than with it in, by an amount I would guess was about 0.4 AFR leaner. I would not ride without Pink CAT Code plug installed.

Summary:
It looks to me like the stock fuel tables in the cruise range for the Motronic MA 2.4 are centered around 14.7:1 and get leaner somewhere between 2,500 and 4,000 RPM depending on TPS. I often saw AFR readings in the low 15s.

It may be that without the O2 sensor installed, and with the E10 Premium fuel I'm running, the Motronic stock fuel tables result in leaner than 14.7:1.

As you can guess, I will be reconnecting the LC-1, reprogramming my Closed Loop O2 to 14:2:1 and reconnecting the BoosterPlug for Open Loop enrichment.

PS: I broke a tab on one of the fairings in my rush to open the bike. Any suggestions for how to glue to reattach a piece to the fairing (in the cylinder head area)?
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 01/30/12 10:51 PM

Evening Roger

Thanks for the data update. (good looking cross counts for that much offset)

Years ago when I was playing with CCP's on the 1150 (single spark) different CCPs changed the spark timing trim so maybe that had some effect on your cylinder burn.


Can you post a picture of the broken tab as that will help us understand the best repair for that particular tab.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 01/30/12 11:02 PM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider
Evening Roger

Thanks for the data update. (good looking cross counts for that much offset)

Years ago when I was playing with CCP's on the 1150 (single spark) different CCPs changed the spark timing trim so maybe that had some effect on your cylinder burn.


Can you post a picture of the broken tab as that will help us understand the best repair for that particular tab.


Thank you. Yes, I'll post a couple pictures tomorrow.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--BoosterPlug - 01/31/12 08:35 PM

Ran the same Open Loop tests with the BoosterPlug installed, as expected, about a 6% richer mixture across the board.

Procedure:
1) Disconnect Motronic O2 Sensor
2) Connect BoosterPlug
3) Reset Motronic by pulling Fuse 5, etc.

Results:
Warm Engine Cruise (3rd, 4th, 5th gears; 3000 to 5000 RPM): AFR Range 13.5:1 to 14.5:1

Open Loop, with the BoosterPlug installed, the motorcycle seemed to run strong in all gears and modes (accel, cruise, decel), much better behaved than with stock Narrowband O2.
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--BoosterPlug - 01/31/12 09:42 PM

More great data. Thanks.

Some first thoughts.

Not quite correct to talk about the maps as aiming for say, 14.7. The maps have their spritz durations but your measured A/F also depends on other factors which may or may not be close to the Factory parameters.

Zero crossings in a feedback system are not an essential or even meaningful property of the system but just a consequence of lots of other factors.

Booster Plugs and other foolers are a strange approach. Might be OK in some places that have very steady temperatures.

Ben
Posted By: big-t

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/01/12 01:16 PM

Quote:
Comments: Pulling the Pink CAT Code plug definitely created leaner mixtures than with it in, by an amount I would guess was about 0.4 AFR leaner. I would not ride without Pink CAT Code plug installed.



Interesting.Back a number of years ago I almost holed a piston on my 1100RT. I was experimenting and had cut the signal wire from the o2 and had it connected to a cheap A/F ratio meter and had removed the Cat code plug.

We were on a group ride and really hammering it on a uphill mountain run when I noticed the A/F was getting very lean and at one point went completely off the lean side.

I backed off and let everybody pass and took it easy on the way home,where I pulled the plugs and found aluminum flecking on them.Looking at the piston tops revealed surface blistering on the piston tops. tongue

Put the Cat code plug back in and never had the same problem.I would imagine normal riding would not have been an issue,but pushing it to the extremes puts it outside of the safe envelope
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--BoosterPlug - 02/01/12 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
More great data. Thanks.

Some first thoughts.

Not quite correct to talk about the maps as aiming for say, 14.7. The maps have their spritz durations but your measured A/F also depends on other factors which may or may not be close to the Factory parameters.

Zero crossings in a feedback system are not an essential or even meaningful property of the system but just a consequence of lots of other factors.

Booster Plugs and other foolers are a strange approach. Might be OK in some places that have very steady temperatures.

Ben


Hi Ben, Thanks for the feedback and thoughts.

When the Motronic/BMW engineers set that "spritz" of fuel, they had a hoped-for AFR target in mind it appears to me to be about 14.7:1 in the cruising range, which makes sense since that is where the O2 control program will toggle around. Your are right though that Battery Voltage, Fuel Pressure, Injector performance, etc. effect the actual AFR measured, as does Fuel Composition (e.g. E10).

Zero crossings of the O2 sensor are something that many (most?) ECUs monitor to conclude whether the O2 sensor and software are working correctly, hence why I showed the plot (also, DirtRider asked about it).

BoosterPlugs, as you know, shifts the AIT by 20C which effectively richens all Open Loop fuel "spritzes" by about 6% (confirmed by the tests I just made). For Closed Loop fueling, it effects the starting point used by the closed loop control program. In my application, I want the slightly richer Open Loop and also the shifted Closed Loop starting point. The BoosterPlug is a great choice since it shifts by 20C pretty linearly from 20F to 90F (measured in my test rides).

RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/01/12 01:33 PM

Originally Posted By: big-t
Quote:
Comments: Pulling the Pink CAT Code plug definitely created leaner mixtures than with it in, by an amount I would guess was about 0.4 AFR leaner. I would not ride without Pink CAT Code plug installed.



Interesting.Back a number of years ago I almost holed a piston on my 1100RT. I was experimenting and had cut the signal wire from the o2 and had it connected to a cheap A/F ratio meter and had removed the Cat code plug.

We were on a group ride and really hammering it on a uphill mountain run when I noticed the A/F was getting very lean and at one point went completely off the lean side.

I backed off and let everybody pass and took it easy on the way home,where I pulled the plugs and found aluminum flecking on them.Looking at the piston tops revealed surface blistering on the piston tops. tongue

Put the Cat code plug back in and never had the same problem.I would imagine normal riding would not have been an issue,but pushing it to the extremes puts it outside of the safe envelope


Yup, I've read so many post about richer mixtures with no CAT Plug and richer Limp Home Modes, that I thought I would just run the tests and see.

On my 04 1150RT, reset fuel tables are a bit leaner than 14.7 in the cruising range (maybe due to my running 7% ethanol fuel?) with the CAT Plug in and about 0.4 AFR leaner with it out.

My background is in the electronic Test and Measurement industry so I tend to think in terms of setting up tests and making the measurements when I want to know what's going on.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/01/12 02:13 PM

Morning Roger

The thing that we all need to keep in mind is that you are working on an 1150 2 spark plug per cylinder head BMW with an Ma2.4 system. With 2 plugs per cylinder the open loop air/fuel ratio can be set a bit leaner than on the single plug models as that 2nd plug initiates better ignition at the outer edge. Even the spark tables are different on the twin spark.

The BMW 1100 (2.2 system) had a real open loop (only) fueling map available (no CCP) that didn't use an 02 sensor or catalytic converter.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/01/12 02:55 PM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider
Morning Roger

The thing that we all need to keep in mind is that you are working on an 1150 2 spark plug per cylinder head BMW with an Ma2.4 system. With 2 plugs per cylinder the open loop air/fuel ratio can be set a bit leaner than on the single plug models as that 2nd plug initiates better ignition at the outer edge. Even the spark tables are different on the twin spark.

The BMW 1100 (2.2 system) had a real open loop (only) fueling map available (no CCP) that didn't use an 02 sensor or catalytic converter.



Hi D.R.,

You raise some good points. And I would emphasize that I have only run these tests on a 2004 R1150RT. For that model and for MA2.4, I think my results are fair and representative.

Also I have made the tests with the Pink CCP installed in almost all cases except the one noted in the post just above. There are some other MA2.4 CCP configurations. I took out the CCP because of the number of 1150 owner comments that I have seen where they've pulled the CCP "and thrown it in the trash". I wanted to get an idea what that would do to the fueling tables. My own belief is that the Bosch and BMW engineers are very good and I want to keep as much of what they've done as possible. The areas where they were challenged are fuel mileage and environmental compliance. 14.2:1 which is just a bit richer than stock (14.7:1, which is really Lambda=1 but who talks in Lambda terms) and it makes a world of difference in my 2004 R1150RT performance.

Regarding the MA 2.4 comments: Isn't it likely that they added the dual spark to reduce problems at 14.7:1 (O2 Closed Loop target) more than it was done to get even leaner?

Regarding the MA 2.2 and R1100: None of my tests have been made on that bike. It would not surprise me at all if there was a richer table in there. The best way to determine how much richer would be to ride around a test course (as you pointed me toward) with a Wideband O2 sensor and gauge. If I were to hazard a wild guess, and if I were them I would have made those cruising AFR targets in the 13.8 to 14.2 range, perhaps a bit richer.

I bet that for Closed Loop R1100s, a 13.8:1 target for an LC-1 implementation would yield a great-running, surge free motorcycle, but that is just an opinion.

RB
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/02/12 12:37 AM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt

Regarding the MA 2.4 comments: Isn't it likely that they added the dual spark to reduce problems at 14.7:1 (O2 Closed Loop target) more than it was done to get even leaner?


Yes, that illustrates what is wrong with targeting the lab-rated myth "14.7". 14.7 is too lean for single-plug Oilheads and maybe even a bit lean for dual-plug machines. They just don't burn as well as other contemporary (lean) machines and need a bit more gas.

Closed-loop using a narrow-band O2 sensor, you are pretty much obliged to target 14.7. But there is nothing special about 14.7. Your new gizmo (or the wide-band PCs) over-come that lock-step 14.7.

Ben
Posted By: steelerider

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/02/12 03:31 AM

Hi Guys -
Newbie to the oil head world. I've been following this thread with some interest. I have a new to me 2002 R1150RT single spark - yes, I know, worst of the surge offenders. I am in the process of completing an entire maintenance once over. The bike was babied, and is in great shape, however I am finding a few things that need remedied. I have felt the dreaded surge, and it is my humble opinion (after much research) that the bike runs too lean. We all know the reasons why. My bike does surge, and I believe that it can be made to about 90-95% surge free, I've done all the prerequisite, TB clean and balance, valves, autolite plugs, etc.
I've run the bike without the CCP, it feels smoother, but still surges and is anemic for sure. The question I have for those of you with more experience is:
1: Do you feel that simply pulling the 02 sensor cures the surge issue? Based on the research done in this thread, it would seem that this forces the bike into an open loop table - but richer. Is it enough though?
2: Is it not perhaps better, or have you had more success simply adding a techlusion, and setting it up to a richer fueling state with the O2 sensor in place? I this a better solution? I have a tehclusion Gen3 on the way.

Sorry if I hijacked the thread, but there have been many different options discussed and studied in this particular thread, that is why I asked here.


Thanks for your input.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/02/12 04:39 AM

Originally Posted By: steelerider
Hi Guys -
Newbie to the oil head world. I've been following this thread with some interest. I have a new to me 2002 R1150RT single spark - yes, I know, worst of the surge offenders. I am in the process of completing an entire maintenance once over. The bike was babied, and is in great shape, however I am finding a few things that need remedied. I have felt the dreaded surge, and it is my humble opinion (after much research) that the bike runs too lean. We all know the reasons why. My bike does surge, and I believe that it can be made to about 90-95% surge free, I've done all the prerequisite, TB clean and balance, valves, autolite plugs, etc.
I've run the bike without the CCP, it feels smoother, but still surges and is anemic for sure. The question I have for those of you with more experience is:
1: Do you feel that simply pulling the 02 sensor cures the surge issue? Based on the research done in this thread, it would seem that this forces the bike into an open loop table - but richer. Is it enough though?
2: Is it not perhaps better, or have you had more success simply adding a techlusion, and setting it up to a richer fueling state with the O2 sensor in place? I this a better solution? I have a tehclusion Gen3 on the way.

Sorry if I hijacked the thread, but there have been many different options discussed and studied in this particular thread, that is why I asked here.


Thanks for your input.


Although our bikes differ in number of spark plugs, there is a lot in common--both are MA2.4 Motronics and they use the same CAT Plugs. Here is my 2 cents.

1. Simply pulling the O2 will not lead to a richer mixture. At some RPM/TPS points it may well be leaner based on the measurements I've made so far. When I pulled the CCP it was even a bit leaner. If you pull the O2 and add a BoosterPlug you will end up with a richer mixture and an AFR range of 13.5 to 14.5 in cruise. That may be rich enough but you may need to get a bit richer still. Can't really know without measuring.

2. I've studied the Techlusion but have not measured it. They do not say how the R259 version modifies the O2 sensor signal nor do they say how much richer the "pots" make the mixture. The O2 sensor connects through the Techlusion but it is not clear if it allows the Motronic to run closed loop. It seems you basically use your senses to decide when it is better. If you have it on order, why not try it? I didn't go that route because of their lack of a good explanation of what it exactly does.

Based on what I've measured on the '04RT an AFR of 13.8 to 14.2 should be able to make a surge free 1150.

My RT runs very strong while it is cold (1 bar or less on the RID) are you surge free while cold? The AFRs run between mid 13s and low 14s there.
Posted By: AndyS

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/02/12 11:31 AM

Hi Steelrider, why not start this as a new post as this really does Hijack this post.
Andy
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/02/12 12:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt

Regarding the MA 2.4 comments: Isn't it likely that they added the dual spark to reduce problems at 14.7:1 (O2 Closed Loop target) more than it was done to get even leaner?


Yes, that illustrates what is wrong with targeting the lab-rated myth "14.7". 14.7 is too lean for single-plug Oilheads and maybe even a bit lean for dual-plug machines. They just don't burn as well as other contemporary (lean) machines and need a bit more gas.

Closed-loop using a narrow-band O2 sensor, you are pretty much obliged to target 14.7. But there is nothing special about 14.7. Your new gizmo (or the wide-band PCs) over-come that lock-step 14.7.

Ben


Hi Ben,

Surely you are right about 14.7 being too lean for the 1150 bikes (single and dual sparks) given the hundreds of posts that can be found discussing the subject. There have been many fine mechanical solutions proposed to reduce the problem by "super tuning". Not too long ago I saw that some single spark owners are adding a second spark plug as a fix which seems kind of extreme to me.

My original idea was to find ways to enrich the mixture slightly for all modes and keep the Motronic fully functioning in both Open and Closed Loop.

(As a side note Stephen Mullen at Nightrider.com has produced a product that shifts the stock narrowband O2 for Harleys which need it for the same reason (surging) and also for the heating effect of the lean mixtures. He has several products and patents. He's a good guy and I keep in close touch with him but he doesn't see enough of a BMW market. In this video, he shows a simple install of an LC-1 on a Harley Harley LC-1 Install.)

So after fully mechanically tuning my R1150RT '04, a simple way of describing what I've done so far is:

1) Use a BoosterPlug to shift the Open Loop tables 6% richer across the board. The reason is threefold: E10 fuel needs a 3% richer mixture, to make the fuel tables richer when not Closed Loop, and give the Motronic a better starting point for the Close Loop search. The data I've taken indicates this worked.

2) Use an Innovate Technologies LC-1 to shift Closed Loop to 14.2:1 AFR. I may try a bit richer and a bit leaner at some point. But in doing the recent Open Loop rides I realized how much I like these new Closed Loop settings.

There is another cheaper way to shift the Closed Loop O2 which I will post in a minute but it takes some electronic design know-how and a way to measure the results.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Another Way to shift Closed Loop - 02/02/12 01:05 PM

Originally Posted By: ...
I'm new to this, so forgive my naive questions. As far as I can tell, the O2 sensor returns a voltage-coded signal that indicates the oxygen level in the exhaust and the ECU then uses this return voltage among other parameters to determine fuel injection timing and duration? With your programmable sensor, you are changing the transfer function between O2 and voltage such that the ECU is effectively fooled into thinking there is less/more (I'm not sure which) oxygen in the exhaust and adding more fuel than before?

If you were to take the O2 vs voltage plot of the old and new oxygen sensors and plotted them, would the shape of the lines be the same with a constant offset across the O2 range? (i.e. have you, e.g., lowered the voltage by .1 or whatever V for every O2 level?) Or is it more complicated than that? Could a simple circuit shift the voltage curve?

...



You've got the right idea on how a simpler version could be made. Here are some plots of appoximately how the stock Narrowband O2 sensor works:



The Motronic looks at the voltages coming from the stock narrowband sensor as it ramps fueling up/down, and switches in the vicinity of 450mV or about 14.7:1 AFR. You can see that it is not very temperature sensitive at that point which is a good thing.

If you wanted to use the stock sensor, you would have to design a circuit (probably with dual analog comparators and filters) that switched around 750-900mV and then produced an output centered on 450mV, offset by the voltage on the O2(neg) lead coming from the Motronic (about 140mV). This isn't too hard if you're an analog circuit designer but it would have the difficulty of needing temperature compensation.

All that considered, the BoosterPlug (which is fairly linear with temperature) and LC-1 seemed simpler and you get an AFR gauge included.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/02/12 01:56 PM

Originally Posted By: steelerider
Hi Guys -
Newbie to the oil head world. I've been following this thread with some interest. I have a new to me 2002 R1150RT single spark - yes, I know, worst of the surge offenders. I am in the process of completing an entire maintenance once over. The bike was babied, and is in great shape, however I am finding a few things that need remedied. I have felt the dreaded surge, and it is my humble opinion (after much research) that the bike runs too lean. We all know the reasons why. My bike does surge, and I believe that it can be made to about 90-95% surge free, I've done all the prerequisite, TB clean and balance, valves, autolite plugs, etc.
I've run the bike without the CCP, it feels smoother, but still surges and is anemic for sure. The question I have for those of you with more experience is:
1: Do you feel that simply pulling the 02 sensor cures the surge issue? Based on the research done in this thread, it would seem that this forces the bike into an open loop table - but richer. Is it enough though?
2: Is it not perhaps better, or have you had more success simply adding a techlusion, and setting it up to a richer fueling state with the O2 sensor in place? I this a better solution? I have a tehclusion Gen3 on the way.

Sorry if I hijacked the thread, but there have been many different options discussed and studied in this particular thread, that is why I asked here.


Thanks for your input.


Morning steelerider

On your "single spark" 2002 1150RT (the worst of the 1150RTs to get the surge out of), just removing the CCP will NOT drive open loop. Unlike the 1100 removing the CCP on the 1150 still allows the closed loop operation as long as there is an operational 02 sensor.

A (properly set up & adjusted) Techlusion will in most cases remove most of the light throttle steady RPM surging) as long as the fueling system is operating properly.

One of the issues with installing & using the Techlusion is getting it adjusted properly to remove the surge but still retain decent fuel economy. On the single spark 1150's that I have installed the Techlusion on the adjustment was critical & they didn't all respond the same.
What I do is temporarily mount the Techlusion in (plain sight) easy external access (not under the seat) then also run a remote fuse in place of the #5 (motronic) fuse (remove the #5 fuse & install a remote fuse holder in place of the fuse). That way I can easily remove the remote fuse to clear the Motronic's learned trim off-sets at every new Techlusion adjustment then do a new TPS re-learn.

Also, for the Techlusion to work properly on the 1150 it requires the stock 02 sensor to be healthy & working properly & the engine/fueling system to be in good condition.


Something else to try---- On the single spark 1150's I have also had decent luck in reducing/removing the surge by just disconnecting the stock 02 sensor & leaving the stock CCP (usually pink) in place then clearing the Motronic trim learn. Roger's data doesn't seem to confirm this on the later 1150 twins park but on the single spark 1150's I have done this on it made a noticeable reduction in the light throttle steady RPM surging. This also opens the door for adding an IAT or (Intake Air Temp) tuning resistance system (Like the Booter Plug) or a homemade resistance tuning system.

Some of the early 1150 single spark were REALLY bad for light throttle steady RPM surging & were not easy to get the light throttle surging out of.

If you have a stubborn one you might also try working with single electrode spark plugs in place of the factory dual electrode plugs then opening the electrode gap up to .035"-.040". That can help initiate combustion on the leaner light throttle F/A mixtures.

Also, verify a good base TB balance & clean throttle bores with clean BBS screw passages.
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Another Way to shift Closed Loop - 02/02/12 03:14 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
If you wanted to use the stock sensor, you would have to design a circuit (probably with dual analog comparators and filters) that switched around 750-900mV and then produced an output centered on 450mV, offset by the voltage on the O2(neg) lead coming from the Motronic (about 140mV). This isn't too hard if you're an analog circuit designer but it would have the difficulty of needing temperature compensation.


In my experience with sports cars, it's very difficult to get a good AFR reading with narrow band O2 sensors. I suspect your simpler design will be more difficult to realize in practice.
Posted By: steelerider

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/02/12 07:51 PM

D.R,
Thank you for your excellent reply. I have done all the pre-requisite maint. Last night, I pulled the BBS screws and they were coated with junk, something I missed. They were cleaned and replaced, as well as the port. Injectors were also pulled and cleaned. Perhaps that will help. Will remote mount the techlusion 1332 as per your advice and add fuel as needed. It makes sense that if I add fuel where the bike needs, I will be able to tune out most of the surge. If the techlusion fails to work I will pull the 02 sensor and just ride the bike. The PO put 38K miles on it, so apparently it didnt bother him too much. Coming from my 2009 Triumph Sprint, I felt it right away - of course the Triple is one of the smoothest bikes I have ever owned. Appreciate your advice. I am assuming that pulling the 02 sensor forces open loop operation the whole time? I have yet to see that question answered in this thread.

Cheers.

Posted By: dan cata

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/02/12 09:37 PM

I think removing/disconnecting the O2 sensor would also affect the gas mileage. Before that, try adjusting the TPS, easy to do. Also, try having it close to the 0.4V limit, I have heard that helps too.

My RT is close to yours, the way it is built I mean, and it does not surge at all. What are you using for TB sync?

Dan.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/02/12 09:55 PM

Originally Posted By: steelerider
D.R,
Thank you for your excellent reply. I have done all the pre-requisite maint. Last night, I pulled the BBS screws and they were coated with junk, something I missed. They were cleaned and replaced, as well as the port. Injectors were also pulled and cleaned. Perhaps that will help. Will remote mount the techlusion 1332 as per your advice and add fuel as needed. It makes sense that if I add fuel where the bike needs, I will be able to tune out most of the surge. If the techlusion fails to work I will pull the 02 sensor and just ride the bike. The PO put 38K miles on it, so apparently it didnt bother him too much. Coming from my 2009 Triumph Sprint, I felt it right away - of course the Triple is one of the smoothest bikes I have ever owned. Appreciate your advice. I am assuming that pulling the 02 sensor forces open loop operation the whole time? I have yet to see that question answered in this thread.

Cheers.


Back a few posts to 756667, all those measurements were with the O2 sensor pulled, which keeps the Motronic in Open Loop mode.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Another Way to shift Closed Loop - 02/02/12 09:57 PM

Originally Posted By: TestPilot
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
If you wanted to use the stock sensor, you would have to design a circuit (probably with dual analog comparators and filters) that switched around 750-900mV and then produced an output centered on 450mV, offset by the voltage on the O2(neg) lead coming from the Motronic (about 140mV). This isn't too hard if you're an analog circuit designer but it would have the difficulty of needing temperature compensation.


In my experience with sports cars, it's very difficult to get a good AFR reading with narrow band O2 sensors. I suspect your simpler design will be more difficult to realize in practice.


I'm sure you're right. The results would not be easy to calibrate and would vary with sensor temperature.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/02/12 10:05 PM

Originally Posted By: dan cata
---- Before that, try adjusting the TPS, easy to do. Also, try having it close to the 0.4V limit, I have heard that helps too. ----


Afternoon Dan

That doesn't work on the 1150 with the 2.4 Motronic. The 1150 with the 2.4 uses a "learnable" TPS that learns the low & high threshold then assigns a base voltage.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/02/12 10:48 PM

Originally Posted By: dan cata
I think removing/disconnecting the O2 sensor would also affect the gas mileage. Before that, try adjusting the TPS, easy to do. Also, try having it close to the 0.4V limit, I have heard that helps too.

My RT is close to yours, the way it is built I mean, and it does not surge at all. What are you using for TB sync?

Dan.


Unplugging the O2 sensor might hurt mileage a little but the numbers I measured earlier in this thread suggest that the mixtures could easily be leaner than with the O2 connected.

My 1150RT didn't surge at all. What I wanted to find out was how well it would run with mixtures nearer Best Power levels (mid-high 13s). There is certainly more torque and better drivability even on a non-surging bike when you get the AFRs below 14.2.
Posted By: steelerider

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/02/12 11:58 PM

It would seem that disconnecting the 02 sensor to force open loop, and then adding a booster plug will the bike closer to an ideal mixture.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/03/12 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: steelerider
It would seem that disconnecting the 02 sensor to force open loop, and then adding a booster plug will the bike closer to an ideal mixture.


It looks like that to me too. I might have gone that route but it does take the Motronic's ability to adapt to changes away when Closed Loop is eliminated.
Posted By: steelerider

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/03/12 03:06 AM

I pulled the O2 sensor tonight, got the bike up to temp, and the surging is just as bad (at operational temp.) This would support your data that the open loop is not a as rich as we would like to believe. By your data, it is only marginally better, and perhaps the effects of at are mitigated by E10 fuel. It would make sense that BMW would make an open fuel map that is very lean. There would be no reason for them not to. I would guess that they would try to get its as close to the closed loop mode. Even tried it with the CCP pulled - tiny improvement but not much. IncidentallyI had an older techlusion that I removed since I couldn't stand the manual pots (with screwdriver adjustment) and the bike ran much better with it on - which tells me that more fuel is needed, and the bike runs very lean in all modes. I have the newer version on the way, Will install, and turn up the cruise fuel.

I work in the diesel industry. We don't measure 02 levels as a form of fueling adjustment. We look more at input parameters (boost pressure, ambient temp, engine temp, air intake temp, coolant temp) rather than an output parameters such as 02 levels in the exhaust. Much better way of doing things IMHO.

Thanks for your very detailed analysis. It has been very useful. It seems like you have also come up with a solution that works.



Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/03/12 10:25 AM

I can't recall seeing any /2 boxers with dual plugs but it sure was common on the Airheads from 1970 on. Airhead owners were hopeful the 4-valve Oilheads with a central plug would be great, Odd that the Oilheads still benefited from dual plugging.

Charts I've seen of O2 sensors show more gradual transition than Roger's chart. These are not active devices (please correct me here) and so their voltage behavior is based on their chemistry.

Roger is quite right that it would be a simple matter to boost the O2 signal with an op-amp in-line to the ECU. Just scaling it and without temperature compensation is pretty simple with a four-wire circuit to the O2 sensor.

Rich A/F will destroy the cat converter. I suspect there are no cat converters out there on Oilheads that are working at this point in time... or on any sport bike. Silly to use a cat converter unless you have a sophisticated ECU too, not a Motronic.

While nobody can argue with Roger's evidence about the Booster Plug and similar gizmos, just seems inelegant to crow-bar the ambient temp signal that way.

Sharp pointy tiny permanent never-changing iridium plugs are really great on an Oilhead - saves money on plugs and prolly on gas too. Multi-electrode pretty daft. Be sure to use copper anti-seize since you may not be looking at them again for a lot of years.

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/03/12 12:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts

...

Charts I've seen of O2 sensors show more gradual transition than Roger's chart. These are not active devices (please correct me here) and so their voltage behavior is based on their chemistry.

...


Hi Ben, I always look forward to your feedback since my experience is limited to the one model that I've been taking data on.

You're right about the narrowband O2 sensors. There are no transistors or active electronics. Oxygen chemistry causes them to produce a voltage which is measured by the Motronic as part of the Closed Loop control program. Here is a good description by Bosch of its O2 Sensors.

The O2 sensor chart I picked was simulated but I chose it to show the temperature sensitivity. The main point of the chart is to show how hard (not impossible) it is to shift the stock sensor away from 14.7:1 and why something like the LC-1 is better for shifting the AFR. Below is Bosch's actual chart.

I've read a lot and can't find anything that suggests a slightly rich mixture destroys the catalytic converter. A mis-firing engine that leads to a rich mixture can wreak havoc though. In the first case the exhaust has some unburned fuel but no oxygen so the cat doesn't overheat. In the mis-firing case there is both unburned fuel and a lot of oxygen (because the mixture didn't ignite in the cylinder), when it hits the hot cat it burns, eventually permanently damaging the cat. I have tried to understand this because of concerns about what the 14.2:1 ratio I'm running would do to the cat. (Of course Techlusions and Powercommanders also produce rich mixtures.)

Like you say on the 1150s and 1100s, the cats and O2 sensors are pretty old. One does wonder what they're doing at this point.


Posted By: TeSmSp

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/03/12 03:53 PM

I took this scope shot from the terminals on my car's oxygen sensor. I was traveling at 60 mph, on a relatively flat road surface. This is the real time behavior of the sensor. I am guessing that the computer filters out this signal to provide a smoother control of the gas/air mixture.


Attached File
TEK00002.jpg  (164 downloads)
Posted By: steelerider

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/03/12 04:18 PM


I've read a lot and can't find anything that suggests a slightly rich mixture destroys the catalytic converter. A mis-firing engine that leads to a rich mixture can wreak havoc though. In the first case the exhaust has some unburned fuel but no oxygen so the cat doesn't overheat. In the mis-firing case there is both unburned fuel and a lot of oxygen (because the mixture didn't ignite in the cylinder), when it hits the hot cat it burns, eventually permanently damaging the cat. I have tried to understand this because of concerns about what the 14.2:1 ratio I'm running would do to the cat. (Of course Techlusions and Powercommanders also produce rich mixtures.)

I spoke with one of our staff engineers today about a rich mixture possibly damaging a CAT. He suggested that in fact the opposite is true. A lean mixture burns hotter and is much more likely to inflict damage than a rich mixture that essentially burns cooler. As far as soot and carbon buildup, even at a richer burn the CAT still has plenty of heat to work effectively. He noted that has has seen damage from a coolant or severe oil leak into the engine which plugs the face of the brick and can start a combustible condition.

I have yet to read of a CAT being damaged by a richer mixture.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/03/12 06:47 PM

Originally Posted By: TeSmSp
I took this scope shot from the terminals on my car's oxygen sensor. I was traveling at 60 mph, on a relatively flat road surface. This is the real time behavior of the sensor. I am guessing that the computer filters out this signal to provide a smoother control of the gas/air mixture.


Great photo, thanks. I would love to get a scope hooked up to my motorcycle.

Looking at schematics and write ups, there are both analog input filters and digital switched-capacitor filters that pre-condition the O2 Sensor input to the Motronic Closed Loop program.
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/03/12 07:42 PM

Originally Posted By: TeSmSp
I took this scope shot from the terminals on my car's oxygen sensor. I was traveling at 60 mph, on a relatively flat road surface. This is the real time behavior of the sensor. I am guessing that the computer filters out this signal to provide a smoother control of the gas/air mixture.


Again, I (and I am sure, many others) appreciate the data.

But what the curve shows is the sensor output while operating inside a feedback loop. It is the ECU that is initiating the switching by toggling the spritz in whatever increments Bosch thinks best, not the O2 sensor. The O2 sensor kind of amplifies the effect due to the pretty steep slope, but it isn't the reason for the all-or-nothing pattern.

Feedback is a challenging topic. You usually need to consider phase angle, system gain, bandwidth, and other electronic terms to think productively about feedback. BTW, aged O2 sensors get slow - and that screws up the feedback system.

As I poorly understand it, when you stuff carbon into a cat converter, it has to burn if off and the more carbon the hotter.

Now, I often insert the word "sport bike" into my posts (like the name of this forum) intentionally. Roger, as ever cogently, points out design A/F (whether by map or by feedback) should never be too far from stoich. True, but any time you blip the happy knob, you are dosing the cat converter with carbon and there are many instances while riding along when there's a lot of unburnt stuff passing into the cat converter... in sporty riding. For that very reason, modern cars with modern ECUs and 6 O2 sensors before and after the cat converter don't ever let this happen.

BTW, being stupid about acceleration is one major shortcoming of the Motronics. A shortcoming the CV carbs on the Airheads did not have.

Ben

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/03/12 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: steelerider

I spoke with one of our staff engineers today about a rich mixture possibly damaging a CAT. He suggested that in fact the opposite is true. A lean mixture burns hotter and is much more likely to inflict damage than a rich mixture that essentially burns cooler. As far as soot and carbon buildup, even at a richer burn the CAT still has plenty of heat to work effectively. He noted that has has seen damage from a coolant or severe oil leak into the engine which plugs the face of the brick and can start a combustible condition.

I have yet to read of a CAT being damaged by a richer mixture.


Yup, a rich mixture quickly depletes the CAT's stored O2. Once it is depleted there is no O2 in the CAT or in the exhaust stream to oxide the unburned HCs or CO. No oxidation no heat.

However, when an engine is misfiring you have unburned HCs and Oxygen and the CAT can get very hot. A misfiring engine can be very hard on CATs.
Posted By: steelerider

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/10/12 01:59 AM

Pleased to say I installed the Techlusion 1332 today. No surging at all. Bike is running so much better with a richer mixture. The techlusion does add fuel in closed loop mode. I will likely watch my fuel mileage suffer. No big deal.
I found that there stock cruise mode setting -green ( 1 ) was still not enough. I have it turned up to 4.5 and the it runs very well. I finally feel that I am riding the bike that BMW intended this to be. Cat code plug is installed. I like that the Techlusion works with the 02 sensor. Accelerator pump, and top end fuel are at stock settings. Still running autolite plugs. It started today at 37 deg f and idled right away. Will be nice to be able to concentrate on actually riding for once. Thanks for all your data Roger. I feel like the techlusion is a little easier than your mod though. Cheers
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/10/12 02:45 AM

Originally Posted By: steelerider
Pleased to say I installed the Techlusion 1332 today. No surging at all. Bike is running so much better with a richer mixture. The techlusion does add fuel in closed loop mode. I will likely watch my fuel mileage suffer. No big deal.
I found that there stock cruise mode setting -green ( 1 ) was still not enough. I have it turned up to 4.5 and the it runs very well. I finally feel that I am riding the bike that BMW intended this to be. Cat code plug is installed. I like that the Techlusion works with the 02 sensor. Accelerator pump, and top end fuel are at stock settings. Still running autolite plugs. It started today at 37 deg f and idled right away. Will be nice to be able to concentrate on actually riding for once. Thanks for all your data Roger. I feel like the techlusion is a little easier than your mod though. Cheers


Really glad the data helped you get a good result. The Techlusion is a different approach, an output modifier. It is easier to install but harder to know the AFR you've ended up at. Do you understand how it can close the loop and add fuel. They don't explain that and it's a contradiction. Perhaps they close the loop only under limited conditions.

Posted By: steelerider

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/10/12 04:20 PM

Roger,
It does intercept the 02 sensor to the ECM. So I assume that is how it knows when closed loop mode is engaged. It is also in full control of the inectors. Essentially, all it does is hold the injector open a little longer - and thus more fuel. On the new unit, you can actually adjust the switch point where the closed loop mode engages (by RPM)
I'm not an engineer, but I can tell you that it is very effective.
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/10/12 04:35 PM

My best guess is that you attach the O2 sensor to the Techlusion just to keep the connector from banging against the tank. Otherwise, the Techlusion is mostly just a smart spritz lengthener piggy backing on the ECU map.

The Techlusion might be piggy backing in the closed-loop mode too but I have good reason to think the T. folks prefer not to have that pesky closed-loop mode come into action (since they told me that one day long ago).

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/10/12 05:30 PM

Originally Posted By: steelerider
Roger,
It does intercept the 02 sensor to the ECM. So I assume that is how it knows when closed loop mode is engaged. It is also in full control of the inectors. Essentially, all it does is hold the injector open a little longer - and thus more fuel. On the new unit, you can actually adjust the switch point where the closed loop mode engages (by RPM)
I'm not an engineer, but I can tell you that it is very effective.


I saw that it intercepts the O2 and your explanation has filled in a gap for me. By limiting the times when closed loop is possible, they can add fuel in Open Loop over more of the performance range.

During the times when it is Closed Loop, the Motronic will negate any additions that the Techlusion tries to make since the definition of closed loop is that the Motronic is varying the pulses (and any additions) around 14.7.

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
My best guess is that you attach the O2 sensor to the Techlusion just to keep the connector from banging against the tank. Otherwise, the Techlusion is mostly just a smart spritz lengthener piggy backing on the ECU map.

The Techlusion might be piggy backing in the closed-loop mode too but I have good reason to think the T. folks prefer not to have that pesky closed-loop mode come into action (since they told me that one day long ago).

Ben


It is pesky to what Techlusion does. Believing that steelrider is right, they found a way to maintain some co-existance.

I've started to log real-time LC-1 data and took a ride this morning after the motorcycle warmed up. The plot below gives an idea of just how well the LC-1 can hold the 14.2 target I've programmed it to. This tight band is because the LC-1 approach keeps the Motronic fully "in the loop".

It's also interesting to see spread on a normal ride--most of the points between 12.9 and 15.1.

I'll add some more charts over the next couple days when I get better at using that capability.


Posted By: steelerider

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/10/12 08:08 PM

I beleive the answer lies in the fact that the techlusion actually does modify the input signal from the 02 sensor to the ECM - very similar to your method Roger.
It also then has control over injection duration, and is able to enrichen the mixture. So it seems to be a two part process:
1: Modify 02 signal
2: Control injection duration.
The rest, is magic jooojoo.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Open Loop AFR Results--Surprisingly Lean - 02/10/12 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: steelerider
I beleive the answer lies in the fact that the techlusion actually does modify the input signal from the 02 sensor to the ECM - very similar to your method Roger.
It also then has control over injection duration, and is able to enrichen the mixture. So it seems to be a two part process:
1: Modify 02 signal
2: Control injection duration.
The rest, is magic jooojoo.


It's very hard to shift a narrowband O2 sensor and keep it stable--modify, yes, shift perhaps. And if they did shift the O2 sensor, and keep the Motronic in the loop, the Motronic would be able to add the fuel. So I'd agree to "similar" in the way a cat is similar to a tiger. wink

The joojoo is interesting. Since the Tech doesn't intercept the Fuel Injector (but rather hangs on) and doesn't connect to the TPS, what it does is create a pseudo TPS signal by measureing injector pulse width, it gets RPM information from injector repitition rate--what they call "load based technology".

As a class, the output modifiers (Powercommander and Techlusion) take the Motronic out of the loop. Input modifiers like Nightrider.com, BoosterPlug, Zeitronix or LC-1 sensors let the Motronic do what it was designed to.

I've got some interesting slide coming in another post soon.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

LC-1 Realtime AFR - 02/10/12 10:30 PM

It has only recently dawned on me that in addition to logging samples with the GS-911, the LC-1 wideband sensor is able to log high-speed real-time AFR data. Here is a plot from a ride I took today, Closed Loop AFR still set at 14.2:1.

Some things I would note:

--During the first 2:40 the Motronic is Open Loop and the mixture is richer than 14.2, and climbing. At that point, it goes Closed Loop and the line holds 14.2 for most of the time.

--The Motronic is quickly richening the mixture during acceleration. The dips in the plot correspond to me turning the throttle. The AFR can, during "normal" acceleration (part throttle), get as rich as 12:1

--The LC-1 is very effective at returning quickly to 14.2 as soon as any richer-mixture acceleration ends.

--On the right hand side of the chart, you can see the effect of fuel-cutoff, AFR goes to 22 (full scale). It really does shut of the fuel! However, it gets back to the 14.2 range pretty quickly once it exits fuel-cutoff mode.


Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: LC-1 Realtime AFR - 02/11/12 01:03 AM

Still digesting all this great data but wanted to point out there is no easy or definitive way I can think of for the Techlusion to know when the Motronic is closed-loop. Remotely possible for very smart algorithms. Unless you believe in fairies.

Pretty simple for the Techlusion to scale-up the O2 output before it gets to the ECU - either a fixed amount or proportionally. Piece of cake for an op-amp (of which a couple have to be inside the Techclusion).

Ben
Posted By: steelerider

Re: LC-1 Realtime AFR - 02/11/12 02:01 AM

Honestly, I can't figure out exactly how it works, and I would think for sake of intellectual property, they would like us to keep guessing! I know that it does what it says. Thinking about it though, I think it uses the signal from the 02 sensor simply to detect when the motronic goes into closed loop mode. You can see this on the 1332 module I have. (A blue LED flashes on the display when closed loop is engaged )- At this point, it then adds more fuel simply by extending the injection period. So it simply watches the 02 sensor for its engagement into closed loop. The ECM would ground out that circuit anyway, to close the connection. Remember as well that the injectors are essentially spliced into as well. The techlusion assumes control of injection.
Posted By: steelerider

Re: LC-1 Realtime AFR - 02/11/12 02:02 AM

Roger, You can see how it does a remarkable job of keeping the mixture close to, or at 14.2 Very nice data.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: LC-1 Realtime AFR - 02/11/12 01:40 PM

Thanks, it took some effort and I needed a lot of input from others to be sure it would work and not be bad for the bike.

Cost wise, it is among the least expensive things you can do to richen the fuel: an LC-1 with gauge and wideband O2 sensor is $169.99 no shipping no tax at Amazon.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

O2 Sensor Heater Circuit - 02/16/12 01:24 PM

I've got some cleaned up pictures of the LC-1 Install which I will post soon. Before finalizing the install, I needed to know whether the Motronic MA 2.4 would throw an error code and/or disable Closed Loop operation if it didn't see an O2 Sensor heater.

In many ECUs, the monitor O2 sensor heater current to determine if the sensor is present and if it is working. Since there is no documenation, the only thing to do was cut the O2 heater wires and see what happened. I rode for an hour with the heater disconnected.

The bottom line is, that the Motronic MA 2.4 does not produce any error codes if the heater is missing, and still runs its Closed Loop program.

This was good news for the final installation since it meant that I didn't need to find a place to mount a 10 ohm resistor dumping nearly 20 watts of heat.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Start Up Data - 02/24/12 03:55 PM

Below is a chart of a startup sequence and drive off. You can see the richness starting on the left, moving to closed loop at 14.2:1 AFR on the right. In between are some lean splikes from deceleration enleanment and from fuel overrun cuttoff (biggest splikes). You can also see a restart just right of center where it goes quickly through a rich sequence (idle lever not up). You can also see some rich blips as I roll the throttle on.


Posted By: roger 04 rt

Cold Start Lever - 02/25/12 03:43 AM

Here is a plot of AFR for my '04 R1150RT cold started with the throttle and cold start levers in three positions. Ambient temperature was 35 F.

1) For the left hand third of the plot, the cold start lever is on, the engine is idling smoothly and the AFR is in the 12s. Notice that the mixture is appearing to get slightly richer in the first 40 seconds. This is because the fuel is being atomized and burned better, leaving less oxygen in the exhaust. Less O2 is interpreted by a wideband oxygen sensor as a richer mixture.

2) In the center part of the chart, the cold start lever is abruptly switched off. At first the mixture seems rich due to less air going in. But after a few cycles, with less air going through the TBs and the engine still cold, the rich mixture isn't atomized as well, the engine misfires, and the O2 sensor reads the un-consumed oxygen as a leaner mixture. I will say that a different way: there was enough fuel but not enough air and all the fuel didn't burn, leaving unburned O2 in the exhaust which was read by the sensor as leaner.

3) Cold start lever still off but throttle cracked open for smooth idle. Better combustion so the AFRs return to the 12s as the fuel and oxygen burn more completely.

Bottom line: cold engines need more fuel AND a bit more air to idle well. The oil temp sensor reading tells the motronic to add fuel, the rider uses the cold start lever to add air.


Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Cold Start Lever - 02/26/12 12:16 AM

Still digesting this wonderful real data.

Roger, please excuse me if I mention something you know perfectly well, but the "cold start" gizmo is nothing but a long string that tugs on the butterflies shaft (metaphorically speaking) - and hence the TPS, of course.

It isn't doing anything different than stepping on the throttle would do.

The state of the engine is different and so the two temp trims are a bit off - but the trims are pretty minor unless you live in Canada, of course, and only the engine oil temp is changing during the course of your data run - unless you are heading up a mountain.

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Cold Start Lever - 02/26/12 11:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
Still digesting this wonderful real data.

Roger, please excuse me if I mention something you know perfectly well, but the "cold start" gizmo is nothing but a long string that tugs on the butterflies shaft (metaphorically speaking) - and hence the TPS, of course.

It isn't doing anything different than stepping on the throttle would do.

The state of the engine is different and so the two temp trims are a bit off - but the trims are pretty minor unless you live in Canada, of course, and only the engine oil temp is changing during the course of your data run - unless you are heading up a mountain.

Ben


The idea for taking this data came from a question in another forum. Someone thought the TPS on some bikes was driven directly by the cold start lever (it's not) and whether the mixture was richer if you used the cold start lever versus the throttle (mixture is the same).

Since the LC-1 gives you programmable Lambda AND realtime AFR data I decided to look at what happened under the three circumstances. Beyond the fact that it is the Oil Temp sensor that determines Warm-Up Enrichment which most know, it was interesting for me to see:

1) Just after start, the mixture seems like it's getting slightly richer, it's not. What is happening is the combustion gets better over the first 30-40 seconds, consuming a bit more of the oxygen (which is what an O2 sensor measures).

2) If you try to idle a cold (Canada cold) engine with a rich mixture but not enough airflow (middle of graph) a rich mixture will misfire--and look lean! That's due to unconsummed O2 (and unburied fuel) reaching the O2 sensor. Here is a good example of a rich mixture, with oxygen still in the exhaust that would start burning in a hot catalytic converter. Misfiring can be very damaging to cats.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/08/12 06:25 PM

Now that I can program my Closed Loop AFR where I want, I've started to think about the "best" place. I've been running between 13.8 and 14.2:1. I've also been thinking about why such a small mixture shift, only several percent, makes such a big difference to performance and smoothness. Yesterday I came across an article on EGT, CHT, AFR and mixtures that answered many of my questions.Here is a link to that three part aviation article: Understanding Best Power/Economy -- Back to the Future . The article also explains how you might get a "lean" mixture to run smoothly. (Chart from the article below.)

Some key points from the article:
-- In the engines they have studied, cylinder to cylinder AFR variation can reach 8-12%. So at the extreme, one cylinder could be as rich as 13.8:1 and the other as lean as 15.6:1 at the same moment.

-- Rich of Peak EGT (richer than about 14.7:1) operation is much less sensitive to AFR variation due to the depletion of oxygen by combustion. In other words, once the oxygen in the cylinder is used up, a little more or less fuel doesn't effect the horsepower of the cylinder/engine.

-- When operating Lean of Peak (leaner than 14.7:1), difference in fueling leads directly to differences in cylinder/engine power. There is still oxygen available, adding a little fuel adds a bit of power.

-- Roughness in leaned engines is usually due to cylinder to cylinder power imbalances, not lean misfiring.

-- Motors with very well balanced air intakes and fuel injectors can be run Lean of Peak more effectively.

-- Considering cylinder head temperature, 14.7:1 is the hottest AFR.

Some thoughts after reading the article:

-- A shift of AFR to 13.8:1, will add several percent to BHP in the cruising range, but not at high powers where the Motronic already runs richer mixtures. (N.B. CO pot R1100s are specified to idle between 13.8 and 14.1, so I guess the engine is okay operating there.)

-- After balancing airflow at idle, for motorcycles using a stock narrowband O2 sensor, it might be better to adjust the right cylinder throttle plate for smoothness (equal HP) at 3000-4000 RPM, rather than exactly equal manifold pressure. How could that be done?

-- There is value in having a very well matched set of injectors. What is the best shop for getting these?

-- For a stock setup, Open Loop operation will be smoother than Closed Loop since the fueling isn't varied. Adding a BoosterPlug will add power and smoothness when the O2 sensor is disconnected by getting closer to a best power mixture, also adding some insurance against leanness caused by E10 fuel.

-- My LC-1 Wideband O2 sensor will smooth out Closed Loop operation with a shift to 4-6% percent richer than 14.7:1. Example below.

When the R1100/1150 engine goes into closed loop operation, the fueling is ramped a few percent below 14.7:1 and a few percent above. Given the above points, I can imagine a case as follows:

A) Cylinder left is 5% leaner than Cylinder right
B) Motronic Closed Loop AFR range: +/- 2.5% (est.)
C) Therefore in Closed Loop the left cylinder runs between 14 and 14.7, while the right cylinder runs between 14.7 and 15.4.

Although this is hypothetical, and you could imagine better and worse scenarios, in this case the left cylinder is always Rich of Peak, its power doesn't vary much during the Motronic's Closed Loop operation. But the right cylinder in my example is always Lean of Peak, so as the Motronic ramps fueling up and down, the power in the right cylinder varies. (Sounds like surging.) Even with these imbalances, a shift of 5% to 14:1 Closed Loop AFR will keep Closed Loop operation rich of peak for both cylinders at all times.

Here are some interesting charts from the article:


Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/08/12 07:45 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt


-- After balancing airflow at idle, for motorcycles using a stock narrowband O2 sensor, it might be better to adjust the right cylinder throttle plate for smoothness (equal HP) at 3000-4000 RPM, rather than exactly equal manifold pressure. How could that be done?



Afternoon Roger

Thanks for the follow up info.

As I have posted here a few times in the past-- balancing for matched or even "engine vacuum" is not the best way on the BMW 2 cylinder boxer.

That method is basically used as it is easy, quick, gets it close, & can be done by a method that can be seen & measured by an instrument. Balancing for even POWER is the best way as far as I'm concerned.

Personally on my own BMW's I have used the even-power side to side method for a long time now.

Due to a few people on this site that like to question this method & don't seem to understand it's possibility I will respond to you on a PM so as not to turn this thread into a hijacking.
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/08/12 11:24 PM

About tuning for equal power from the two cylinders (indeed a great idea), I am "a few people on this site that like to question this method & don't seem to understand it's possibility". OK, maybe DR doesn't mean me since I DO think this is a great idea but I have no idea how DR does it.

I have asked DR to explain his method many times and I can not recall ever seeing a description or even a hint about how he does it. If DR will please provide a link to where he explains the method he has advocated a number of times on this forum, many of us will be very grateful for the education, me more than anybody.

Roger -

Although I know a guy who will object bitterly for me to so much as mention a BMW shortcoming, but BMW is especially nasty in having rather loose injector balance requirements. If I recall, it is Adam Wade who says within a broad 10% tolerance. Even a TwinMax can read within that kind of tolerance, let alone BMW who can match injectors that arrive in a big mixed box to 2%, if they wanted to. This is unforgivable for the manufacturer of boxer engines.

BUT... as I discuss in my write-up, when you take your injectors to the cleaner-person (which everybody should do every three years), they will give you before and after flow stats, unless you are not using a qualified shop.

Some smart folks order matched pairs from RJ or some initials like that - the gold-standard of injector companies. Not expensive.

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/09/12 03:20 AM

I plan to send my injectors out this spring out of curiosity. I'll post the report when I get it.

Ben, have you sent yours out? How were they?

A rule of thumb from the curves: at lambda <1 adjust air to balance power; at lambda>1 adjust fuel to balance power. So how do you adjust fuel imbalance? Maybe match them and add a voltage regulator to one of the power supplies!
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/09/12 05:32 AM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
I plan to send my injectors out this spring out of curiosity. I'll post the report when I get it.

Ben, have you sent yours out? How were they?

A rule of thumb from the curves: at lambda <1 adjust air to balance power; at lambda>1 adjust fuel to balance power. So how do you adjust fuel imbalance? Maybe match them and add a voltage regulator to one of the power supplies!


Roger -

My write-up has lots of details about cleaning. Mine went to the cleaners around 25,000 miles on the best gas, if I recall. Not too old, eh. But still needed attention.

Hey, I wonder how many riders out there are complaining about surging when their problem is dirty injectors cutting the fuel supply? The injectors are VERY sensitive to collecting dirt.

"Balance" has two parameters: rate of flow (the cleaning did increase the flow rate of both injectors by a small amount; mine were off balance two percent when dirty and same imbalance after cleaning) and a judgment of quality of spray pattern (slightly impaired when dirty, less when clean). I don't believe 2% is much of an imbalance but then yours could be less or more.

I couldn't detect a difference I'd confidently attribute to the cleaning, as I recall. But then these "tests" are terrible experiments because you are screwing around with a bunch of things at the same time and maybe my injectors were OK to start with.

But I think the RC (Russ Collins) matched injectors are the way to go.

I don't think there are feasible ways to re-shape the injector pulses. These are strong pulses and the "pintle" valves are pretty much all or nothing and not variable in any electronically simple way.

Frankly, I was astonished to learn BMW uses a wasted spritz (analogous to the "wasted spark" design), flushing both injectors even at the perfectly wrong moment for one of them. Very dim, wasteful, silly, and not much trouble to create an ECU that had two power transistors to trigger the injectors separately. I can't wait for what-his-name to tell me BMW engineers always pursue the True and Pure.

Roger - if DR PMs you his method for balancing the jugs based on power output as he promised, please ask him if he gives his approval for you sending it to me too.

Ben
Posted By: Skywagon

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/09/12 06:02 AM

Roger... looke like a fellow 550 Gami guy...Maybe we could start a Mike Busch lean of peak vs rich discussion smile
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/09/12 07:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Skywagon
Roger... looke like a fellow 550 Gami guy...Maybe we could start a Mike Busch lean of peak vs rich discussion smile


Good article, isn't it?

No argument here ... I don't think that these bikes like being lean and having their fuel ramped when they are. I might match the injectors and run lean if there was no O2 sensor. But since rhe fueling varies in closed loop operation, I think I'll just keep running on the rich side where there is much less sensitivity to fuel imbalance.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/09/12 01:15 PM

Morning

Injector spray quantity is effected by commanded length of pulse, current (voltage) at the injector pintel lift coil, any resistance in the injector driver ground path, fuel pressure at each injector, resistance to flow at the injector spray nozzle, & a bit by temperature of the injector.

Even if all is matched per above that still doesn't mean matched fueling as spray pattern of each injector comes into play due to fine atomization of the fuel & how it mixes with the intake air as well as how the air flows past the partially closed throttle plate.

The BMW 1100 Ma 2.2 & 1150 Ma 2.4 system uses an injector spray initiated at bottom of piston stroke on each & every revolution. And if the tuning chart I have is accurate the 2.4 also uses an injector spray at TDC for cold starting enrichment (at least that seems to be available in the Ma 2.4 box)

The one (or 2) spray per each revolution is about all that is available on the 2.2 & 2.4 box as neither have a camshaft sensor input. Without a cam input or other 1/2 engine speed input no good (reliable) way for the Motronic to tell intake stroke from exhaust stroke.
Same with the lost spark ignition system. Without a cam sensor no reliable way to tell intake stroke from exhaust stroke so it gets one-spark-per-rev as the only input is sees is crankshaft position with no stroke definition.

The BMW 1200 with the BMS-K not only uses a cam sensor but uses a separate 02 sensor for each cylinder & the crankshaft input is more precise as it uses an inductive sensor with multi pulse inputs rather than the very primitive hall effect TDC/BDC (only) input of the Motronic Ma 2.2 or Ma 2.4.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/09/12 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts


My write-up has lots of details about cleaning. ...

Hey, I wonder how many riders out there are complaining about surging when their problem is dirty injectors cutting the fuel supply? ...

But I think the RC (Russ Collins) matched injectors are the way to go.

...

I was astonished to learn BMW uses a wasted spritz (analogous to the "wasted spark" design), flushing both injectors even at the perfectly wrong moment for one of them. ...


Hi Ben,
I think the answer is some are having surging due to injectors. It's easy to measure valves and manifold pressure, but hard to measure injector performance--no easy way to do it at home--okay, I can think of some crude ways but for $25 per injector, I'll send them out.

I read your good injector write up and have looked at the RC site, thank you.

BTW, if memory serves me correctly, my 300HP FI aircraft engine has an even simpler injector control. So even if sequential time injection is best, I'm not sure that lack of it's at the route of the boxer's driveability problems.
RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/09/12 02:49 PM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider
...

Even if all is matched per above that still doesn't mean matched fueling as spray pattern of each injector comes into play due to fine atomization of the fuel & how it mixes with the intake air as well as how the air flows past the partially closed throttle plate.

...


Morning DR,
Lots of great detail there. So let's say I get the injectors and manifold balance close ...

Then, if one runs at lambda<1, with all the O2 (okay, most all) consumed by combustion, then I'm not so sensitive to injector variation (even if I add or subtract a little fuel, there's no O2 left to burn it). That means that I can fine tune power by tweaking the throttle adjuster to smooth the engine, relying on my hands, ears and butt.

Then, once adjusted, running in the lambda<1 (say 13.8 where the CO pot bikes run!), the power will be less sensitive to the Motronic Closed Loop fueling ramp. The better I match power the closer I can raise the AFR (lambda, sorry to keep switching between them) toward 14.7 and still stay smooth. That said, I like the feel of the 13.8 I've been running the last couple weeks compared to the 14.2, which was itself a big improvement.
RB
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/09/12 03:42 PM

Morning Roger

Even with the injectors performing as close as possible & all else in the fueling & ignition system as well as compression & valve timing being as even as possible you still have individual combustion chambers that can be a bit different, as well as intake tracts not being perfectly even, & for sure the exhaust flows different side to side just based on it's design of one side flowing into the other. That probably means a bit uneven back pressure & the reversion would definitely be different. If one cylinder has more residual exhaust in it than the other that will definitely effect the next ignition cycle.

Your approach of using something like the LC-1 then setting the entire mixture to a much easier to ignite & better flame propagation is probably the best way to go. As you have mentioned many times a richer mixture covers up a lot of combustion issues.

On your single 02 sensor set up you might be able to install separate 02 sensor bungs up closer to the exhaust valves then add a couple of wide bands there & monitor the exhaust 02 content on each side for comparison.

Your twin spark 1150 isn't too bad as far as runability & surging goes but I have yet to ride an 1150 single spark that is operating in closed loop that doesn't demonstrate some light throttle surging (not a one so far).

Some riders claim no surging in their 1150 single spark but when I ride that same bike I can easily induce surging. Some are definitely worse than others but that could be due to type of fuel used, to tuning issues, to carbon build-up on the valves or ports, to exhaust pipe flow differences, to variances in the combustion chambers or squish heights, to injector flow differences, to TB flow differences, to a multitude of other single or combined possibilities.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/09/12 05:15 PM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider
...

Your twin spark 1150 isn't too bad as far as runability & surging goes but I have yet to ride an 1150 single spark that is operating in closed loop that doesn't demonstrate some light throttle surging (not a one so far).

Some riders claim no surging in their 1150 single spark but when I ride that same bike I can easily induce surging. Some are definitely worse than others but that could be due to type of fuel used, to tuning issues, to carbon build-up on the valves or ports, to exhaust pipe flow differences, to variances in the combustion chambers or squish heights, to injector flow differences, to TB flow differences, to a multitude of other single or combined possibilities.



On my particular 1150, I mentioned at the start of this thread that it was just not a "comfortable" bike in the 3000-4000 RPM range--no surging, just this vague feeling that it wanted the mixture richened, like my plane when it was over-leaned. This was especially noticeable when accelerating through the gears on a spirited, but normal ride. Just reducing the AFR to 14.4 (my first try) took that away.

I read a lot of posts on this site and others where riders comment that the R1150 likes "higher" RPMs, above 4000. Some even suggest that riding in the 2500 to 3500 is "lugging" the engine--perhaps true with the stock sensor, but not at all true with a mixture more to the Boxer's liking.

Back to your point about twin versus single spark, and my link to the GAMI injector article several posts back. The planes I flew all had dual magnetos and two spark plugs per cylinder for redundancy. Part of the run-up checklist is a mid-power test of the magnetos--run with both, then on left only, then on right only. It is amazing how much the power dips on one set of spark plugs.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Sample of Ignition Data - 03/12/12 05:05 PM

Here is the ignition plot from a short ride I took in January.

The left axis is degress for dwell and timing, and also degrees C for engine temperature. The right axis is RPM. The data was taken from my GS-911 and is for an '04RT. It looks like I might have made the ride with the Cold Start lever up all the time.


Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Sample of Ignition Data - 03/13/12 03:58 AM

Idle dwell at 8 degrees. Even spread for most of the ride between 10 and 40 degrees , max advance is 43. Cold spark timing at 12 degrees advance.

Notice that this spirited twisty ride was mostly under 4000 RPM.

Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Sample of Ignition Data - 03/13/12 04:12 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Idle dwell at 8 degrees. Even spread for most of the ride between 10 and 40 degrees , max advance is 43. Cold spark timing at 12 degrees advance.

Notice that this spirited twisty ride was mostly under 4000 RPM.


Maybe you should try a hotter plug.
B.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Fuel Economy and Mixture - 03/19/12 01:32 PM

Here is an example of two side by side, horizontally opposed engines running different fuel mixtures. Power Shot

One engine is running at Best Power and one is running at Best Economy. Stoichiometric mixtures (the point where are BMW Boxer engines run at cruise) are in between--a little closer to Best Power but let's not quibble, and lets work with Stoic is halfway between the two.

In the example of the article, two engines are running side by side on a twin engine, aircraft so the operating conditions are the same. For the exact same power, the Best Power engine is using 20% more fuel than the Best Economy engine! Pretty impressive but our engines won't run there as configured. But it let's us see that for the same power output, a Best Power engine would use about 10% more fuel than a Stoic engine.

Since it is power that produces any given speed, in a side by side case, if you add 10% more fuel you get 10% worse mileage, based on this aviation example.

In my case at 13.8, I am injecting 6% more fuel; and at 14.2 I'm adding 4% more. I know there are many other factors that can be considered but if I add 4% more fuel, I can get no worse than 4% less mileage (since I am still much leaner than the Best Power mixture in the low to mid 13s).
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Fuel Economy and Mixture - 03/19/12 02:09 PM

Actually the operating conditions are not the same. These are turbocharged engines, and the left engine is running with more boost (higher manifold pressure). Higher boost increases efficiency, hence less fuel consumption for the same power.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Fuel Economy and Mixture - 03/19/12 02:23 PM

Originally Posted By: TestPilot
Actually the operating conditions are not the same. These are turbocharged engines, and the left engine is running with more boost (higher manifold pressure). Higher boost increases efficiency, hence less fuel consumption for the same power.


You are absolutely correct. The point is that they are operating at the same power but different fueling. I want to show that even the wide spread of best power to best economy is only 20% and that Best power to stoic is about 10%.

From other threads there is some concern that a few percent richer mixture could lead to 33% higher fuel consumption, which isn't possible in the operating range under discussion.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Oscilloscope wideband O2 - 03/21/12 03:21 AM

Yesterday I was able to borrow an oscilloscope for a few hours. It was very interesting to see the raw waveforms being sent by the LC-1 (Innovate Motorsports) to the narrowband input on the Motronic ECU. The persistence of the scope I used wasn't long enough for photos so I'll just attempt to describe what I measured.

As a baseline, if I was examining a functional narrowband sensor during Closed Loop operation, I would see a waveform that simply alternated between 100mV for half a second or so and then 900 mV for half a second or so, in a repeating cycle until the Closed Loop mode ended--usually due to a change of throttle. The Motronic would be creating this alternation by steadily increasing its injector pulse width until the O2 sensor jumped to 900mV. Then in would start slowly decreasing the pulse width until the O2 sensor voltage abruptly fell to 100mV--this is what creates Closed Loop operation. The frequency of this alternation would be about once per second or so. (As an aside, if the fueling table said that the average pulse width for 14.7:1 was, for example, 2.00 mS; but the average pulse width for Closed Loop was 2.08 mS; then the Motronic would "learn" an "adaptation value" of +4% and it would start there next time, it would also add 4% to similar Open Loop fueling. Also, in Closed Loop I might have seen a +/- 3-4% spread between richest and leanest values, for a 6 to 8% swing in fueling.

What I learned by looking at the LC-1 real time waveforms (there are two analog outputs--one for the motronic and one for the gauge) was the following:

1) As I have the LC-1 set up, the Motronic is able to alternate the mixture once per second, just as with the narrowband sensor--this is good, it means the LC-1 solution is compatible with the Motronic.

2) In Closed Loop, the Motronic tries a new step every 30 to 50 mS (50 thousandths of a second).

3) Each Motronic fueling step is about 1%. So if it started at, say, 2.00 mS it next tries 2.02 mS, then 2.04 and so on, same step size on the ramp down.

4) The LC-1 is nearly instantaneous in its response. As a result, I observed a narrow spread of +/- 1% to +/- 2%. The stock narrowband O2 sensor is 2 to 4 times as large because it responds more slowly, which creates a variation that is probably felt as surging.

5) Because the LC-1 is so fast, the 100 mV to 900 mV transition isn't a single jump from one voltage to another, it is a series of 100 or 200 mV steps. The Motronic handles this difference without a problem.

Going back to point 4) has given me the idea that by using an LC-1, I might be able to run without surge or hesitation or weakness at AFRs above the 13.8 to 14.2 that I've tested so far. Next I will try 14.7:1 (stock AFR) and then 15.2:1 to see how those mixtures run. Maybe we can "create" some more gas mileage for those who aren't interested in the power increase that 13.8:1 brings.

I will probably look at this some more next time I borrow a scope.

RB
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Oscilloscope wideband O2 - 03/21/12 02:33 PM

You mention something in passing that I believe can settle a difference of opinion I've been having with certain important people for years.

I've been saying we ride mostly open loop since each time we budge the throttle, it ends closed loop operations.

No dispute about that. You mention that.

Unless you ride encumbered by a throttle lock or ThrottleMeister gizmo that inhibits free operation of the throttle, we trim and nudge the throttle maybe half a dozen times a minute (twice that for me, by actual count, even on dull roads).

But now you are able to report how big were your throttle nudges that were big enough to return the ECU to the map??????

Ben
Posted By: smiller

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/21/12 02:59 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Now that I can program my Closed Loop AFR where I want, I've started to think about the "best" place. I've been running between 13.8 and 14.2:1. I've also been thinking about why such a small mixture shift, only several percent, makes such a big difference to performance and smoothness.

This is exactly what I noticed while experimenting with a PCIIIUSB (wideband) Power Commander with my 1100. The stock calibration may be good for the cat but it is way too lean for best performance, or even a good compromise. Running at 13.8 shows a marked improvement along with a small hit in fuel mileage. It was a while ago since I last went on an experimentation binge but where I have it set now is 14.2 closed-loop with some additional richening in the open-loop map at the common 'surge' engine speed/throttle position range. An improvement in fueling can transform the oilheads but I've never been a fan of the Techlusion due to it's inability to do anything with closed-loop operation and general lack of control (or lack of precise feedback.) The PCIIIUSB is a great unit but pricey. What you're doing here is interesting.

Hi Dirtrider - I'm confused by the comment 'You can add a wide band to the Power Commander but it doesn't use the wide band to fuel to, it just uses the wide band as a input device to initially learn from.' The wideband Power Commander does indeed fuel from the wideband sensor output. It connects between the Motronic and the injectors/TPS and takes over closed-loop fueling from the Motronic (and adds/subtracts from the open-loop map if desired.) But I may be misunderstanding what you meant.


Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Best Power vs Best Economy - 03/21/12 07:27 PM

Hi sMiller,
As you can see I've tried a few different mixes too. I found that 14.2 worked very well. Lately I've been running on 13.8. At that afr I really like the low rpm pull of the engine. I just went out for a ride on a nice morning here in the Boston area.

Riding along a winding local road at 40 mph, 5th gear, 2500 rpm. I crank the throttle open a quarter or third turn. The bike literally leaps forward, no lugging, plenty in reserve. For reference I weigh a couple hundred pounds.

The stock bike under those conditions is running stoichiometric Closed Loop. That means, in theory, all the fuel and all the O2 has been burned. You quickly open the throttle and the Motronic takes a while to catch up. There is no unburned fuel in the mix and the bike lags.

Running at 13.8:1, there is unburned fuel (about 6%) so when you open the throttle the added air interacts with the unburned fuel that would have gone out the exhaust and produces more power. Then the Motronic catches up. The richer mixtures are in effect a small accelerator pump function.

At least that's my thought at the moment.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Oscilloscope wideband O2 - 03/21/12 07:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
You mention something in passing that I believe can settle a difference of opinion I've been having with certain important people for years.

I've been saying we ride mostly open loop since each time we budge the throttle, it ends closed loop operations.

No dispute about that. You mention that.

Unless you ride encumbered by a throttle lock or ThrottleMeister gizmo that inhibits free operation of the throttle, we trim and nudge the throttle maybe half a dozen times a minute (twice that for me, by actual count, even on dull roads).

But now you are able to report how big were your throttle nudges that were big enough to return the ECU to the map??????

Ben



Hi Ben,
When I get some time I will take a look at how big the TPS deviation needs to be.

What I can tell you from earlier in the thread is that during spirited around town rides the bike is in Closed Loop about 45% of the time, and if it drops out due to TPS input, it gets back to closed loop quickly. Highway rides freehand are around 55% closed loop.

Also earlier in this thread you can see plots where the bike rpm is accelerating and the TPS slows down moving and it jumps back into the closed loop program. This was a real surprise.

So I would say use 50% as a good rough number.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Oscilloscope wideband O2 - 03/22/12 01:09 AM

Ben. Have a look at this chart. Rpm, TPS, lambda. Look at how much TPS is varying in the right hand half of the chart and then see how well lambda (closed loop) stays on.


Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Oscilloscope wideband O2 - 03/22/12 08:37 AM

I have to confess that I don't understand that chart and hope you can take a moment to help me with some baby-steps.

Is it a a time series running from left to right? If that's right, how much time is shown?

RPM - is that running between 3000 and 4800 rpm, roughly? All in one gear?

What is "TPS" - is that voltage measured at the TPS? It seems related to RPM (as it should, of course) but I don't understand why they aren't going up and down together in some more orderly way?

Lambda - how/where do you derive a signal that says "the closed-loop is on or off" since it seems to have only two values like just on-and-off? Or some kind of O2 sensor voltage reflecting lambda value? What scale or just on-and-off?

I notice that after some of the nudges of the TPS curve, the "lambda" goes low (off?). But not after all TPS nudges and not after some slower movements or consistently - is that right?

Maybe stupid of me to not understand, but I would sure like to have your help with this chart.

Thanks.
Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Oscilloscope wideband O2 - 03/22/12 10:46 AM

Hi Ben,

Not a problem, happy to explain. Answers below in parenthesis after each question. As an overview, I took this data using a GA-911 and a Netbook computer, riding from my house to the highway and then down the highway as part of learning before installing the LC-1. Are you a BMW MOA member? This page and the next has some data and narrative you might like: BMW MOA link. One caution, the link and the pasted narrative below had my early thoughts, they have evolves since then somewhat.

This is from a bmwmoa thread with that photo:

Made the highway run yesterday. Data below.

Data Points: 2,100

Driving RPM Range: 3,700 to 5,000 (roughly)
Injectors Fully Off: 3.3% of trip

Closed Loop O2: 47% of trip, up to 80% in steady throttle cruise

I observed two new things from this trip.

1. The highest correlation for closed loop operation is when the TPS (Throttle position) is steady. (I guess that shouldn't be a surprise.)

2. The Motronic will go into Closed Loop mode while the bike is accelerating through the gears. As each new gear was engaged, the Motronic started in Open Loop operation but would go Closed Loop while accelerating. This surprised me. When the bike is cold, it remains Open Loop. My thinking is this is why the motorcycle seems more driveable cold vs hot.

(I can only post one photo at a time so the shifting charts will follow.)

In the chart below (RPM, TPS and Lambda On/Off) you can see the effect of accelerating through a few gears in traffic on the left side (to 5th gear) of the chart (and dealing with changes in traffic speed). On the right half of the chart (to 6th gear). It is in closed loop a lot of the time.


RB


Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
I have to confess that I don't understand that chart and hope you can take a moment to help me with some baby-steps.

Is it a a time series running from left to right? (Correct) If that's right, how much time is shown? (30 minutes, I think io remember.)

RPM - is that running between 3000 and 4800 rpm, roughly? (3700-5000 roughly) All in one gear? (every gear, normal ride, 5th, 6th on highway, which is right hand side.)

What is "TPS" - is that voltage measured at the TPS? (yes, scaled to fit the two axis chart) It seems related to RPM (as it should, of course) but I don't understand why they aren't going up and down together in some more orderly way? (when you open the throttle, it takes a while for rpm to build up. And once opened you can hold the throttle steady and rpm will continue to build.)

Lambda - how/where do you derive a signal that says "the closed-loop is on or off" since it seems to have only two values like just on-and-off? (that is right, it has two values, high is on and low is off. On the 1150 the motronic reports it to the gs-911.) Or some kind of O2 sensor voltage reflecting lambda value? What scale or just on-and-off?

I notice that after some of the nudges of the TPS curve, the "lambda" goes low (off?). But not after all TPS nudges and not after some slower movements or consistently - is that right? (yes, that was one of many things I learned as a took data. Given that an 1150rt ridden spiritedly is in CL half the time, I realized you could "fix" an 1150 without dealing with CL.)

Maybe stupid of me to not understand, but I would sure like to have your help with this chart.

Thanks.
Ben

Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Oscilloscope wideband O2 - 03/22/12 03:09 PM

Roger -

Very nice of you to try to clarify things for me and I had a close look at the link you provided (esp your post at 9:43), but I'd appreciate some specifics. There's no way to judge data except by understanding what is being collected.

Your trace is 15 minutes long? If that long, were you in one gear all that time and held the rpm pretty steady all that time? If it is 15 minutes, then things are happening in very slow motion between the traces?

Where does the "TPS" data come from? Did you measure voltage at a TPS pin? What's the scale or range? Why doesn't "TPS" more closely match "rpm"?

Your reply suggests the "lambda" curve is really some kind of picture of when the whole fueling system is spritzing or in abeyance??? The trace shows it going off for long periods of time while rolling. Do I have that wrong? From that kind of injector information, how can you tell if you are in closed-loop or map?

Thanks for help.
Ben


Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Oscilloscope wideband O2 - 03/22/12 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
Roger -

Very nice of you to try to clarify things for me and I had a close look at the link you provided (esp your post at 9:43), but I'd appreciate some specifics. There's no way to judge data except by understanding what is being collected.

Your trace is 15 minutes long? If that long, were you in one gear all that time and held the rpm pretty steady all that time? If it is 15 minutes, then things are happening in very slow motion between the traces?

Where does the "TPS" data come from? Did you measure voltage at a TPS pin? What's the scale or range? Why doesn't "TPS" more closely match "rpm"?

Your reply suggests the "lambda" curve is really some kind of picture of when the whole fueling system is spritzing or in abeyance??? The trace shows it going off for long periods of time while rolling. Do I have that wrong? From that kind of injector information, how can you tell if you are in closed-loop or map?

Thanks for help.
Ben



Ben,
Did you see my specific answers to those questions, next to your questions in post 767380 in this thread?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Oscilloscope wideband O2 - 03/22/12 07:03 PM

The answers in 767380 are within the box with your post at the very bottom.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Oscilloscope wideband O2 - 03/22/12 07:20 PM

Ben,

Here are the answers from the earlier post below, slightly edited and colored for clarity:

Quote:

I have to confess that I don't understand that chart and hope you can take a moment to help me with some baby-steps. (gladly)

Is it a a time series running from left to right? (Correct) If that's right, how much time is shown? (30 minutes, I think I remember.)

RPM - is that running between 3000 and 4800 rpm, roughly? (3700-5000 roughly) All in one gear? (every gear, normal ride, 5th, 6th on highway, which is right hand side.)

What is "TPS" - is that voltage measured at the TPS? (yes, scaled to fit the two axis chart) It seems related to RPM (as it should, of course) but I don't understand why they aren't going up and down together in some more orderly way? (when you open the throttle, it takes a while for rpm to build up. And once opened you can hold the throttle steady and rpm will continue to build.)

Lambda - how/where do you derive a signal that says "the closed-loop is on or off" since it seems to have only two values like just on-and-off? (that is right, it has two values, high is on (meaning the the fuel is being ramped by the motronic around 14.7:1) and low is off. On the 1150 the motronic reports it to the gs-911.) Or some kind of O2 sensor voltage reflecting lambda value? (not directly from a sensor just a status signal from the motronic saying that it is running the closed loop program) What scale or just on-and-off? (high is on, low is off, off means using MAP, scaled by AIT+barometric pressure+oil temp sometimes+adaptation values+battery voltage)

I notice that after some of the nudges of the TPS curve, the "lambda" goes low (off?). (yes, off) But not after all TPS nudges and not after some slower movements or consistently - is that right? (yes, that was one of many things I learned as I took data. Given that an 1150rt ridden spiritedly is in CL half the time, I realized you could not "fix" an 1150 without dealing with CL.)

Maybe stupid of me to not understand, but I would sure like to have your help with this chart. (if you haven't used a GS-911 it will take a while to get the hang of it but you will. Keep at it.)

Thanks.
Ben


Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Oscilloscope wideband O2 - 03/22/12 10:45 PM

OK.... the fog is lifting. I didn't see your replies at first. Thanks for going to the trouble of putting into red.

How does the GS-911 get a signal the ECU is closed-loop? Does the ECU output that information on a pin???

Then the GS-911 connects to the TPS wires?

I understand the contingency of TPS, rpm, etc. but the time-scale of relations seems odd. Given the half-hour time period, you must have been shifting gears dozens of times but the rpm trace doesn't reflect that any way I can see.

I think what is puzzling, also, is that these traces must be composed of many instantaneous sampled points. That would be 1500 over 30 minutes or once a second, roughly.

But it looks very different from the dyno traces many of us have run over the years; dyno traces have clear gear shifts, rpm changes, and torque outputs laid out in intuitive time sequence and orderly curves, just like riding down the road. But I am not yet able to read this chart as a half-hour trip?

Any further help greatly appreciated and I may be speaking for others who also are puzzled but are more reserved than I am about admitting my ignorance.

Thanks.

Ben

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/23/12 04:11 AM

Good, so let's keep going. You're correct this is much different information than a dyno run/plot. The GS-911 turned out to be a great tool for getting the Motronic to give enough information to learn a great deal about how it works. My aim was to confirm a method for accurately and reliably richening (or leaning) the fueling AFR for both Closed and Open Loop operation, and a method that worked in harmony with the Motronic, not against it.

The Motronic MA 2.4 has a single-wire serial data bus on the service connector. The GS-911 communicates with the Motronic over that bus. About once every 3/4 of a second, the 911 requests a status report from the Motronic of all its important values. Here is that list:

Time of sample
RPM
Oil Temperature
Air Temperature
Ambient Air Pressure
Battery Voltage
TPS Voltage
Ignition Angle
Ignition Dwell Angle
Fuel Injection Pulse Width
Lambda Sensor Voltage
Lambda Status (Closed Loop or Open Loop)
Tank Vent Status (On or Off)

The 911 also has a mode where it only requests Lambda Sensor Voltage so that it can make a pseudo-real time plot of the O2 sensor.

Below are some further answers.

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
OK.... the fog is lifting. I didn't see your replies at first. Thanks for going to the trouble of putting into red.

How does the GS-911 get a signal the ECU is closed-loop? (The Motronic reports it to the GS-911) Does the ECU output that information on a pin??? (Yes, on the serial bus pin on the service connector)

Then the GS-911 connects to the TPS wires? (No, the Motronic reports the TPS value over the serial bus.)

I understand the contingency of TPS, rpm, etc. but the time-scale of relations seems odd. Given the half-hour time period, you must have been shifting gears dozens of times but the rpm trace doesn't reflect that any way I can see. (If you look carefully at the left hand side of the chart you can see several instances of the TPS and rpm going up and down in quick succession, those are gear changes. On the right hand half you can see the rpm step down which was the shift from 5th to 6th.)

I think what is puzzling, also, is that these traces must be composed of many instantaneous sampled points. That would be 1500 over 30 minutes or once a second, roughly. (As I mentioned above it was 2,100 samples during that test ride, each sample being over a dozen different pieces of information.)

But it looks very different from the dyno traces many of us have run over the years; dyno traces have clear gear shifts, rpm changes, and torque outputs (but no motronic status information) laid out in intuitive time sequence and orderly curves, just like riding down the road. But I am not yet able to read this chart as a half-hour trip? (I was using a digital instrument, the GS-911 to get the Motronic to report what it was doing moment by moment--different than a dyno run, for a different purpose. There are some expanded plots over on bmwmoa that are easier to see some detail.)

Any further help greatly appreciated and I may be speaking for others who also are puzzled but are more reserved than I am about admitting my ignorance. (If you haven't used a tool or if you haven't used it for a planned purpose, it can be hard to see what is happening. Thank you for drawing out these answers and clarifications.)

Thanks.

Ben


Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/24/12 07:25 PM

Thanks again for going well beyond the call of duty in patiently explaining things.

I finally got off my butt and read about the GS-911. What a tool!!! And I have to admit, I would never have given the Motronic 2.4 credit for outputting all that data. Amazing.

It would be more judicious of me to say "If true... what a tool" since there are sometimes differences between claims and actual performance.

I sure wish I had one. But not likely I'll have my current OIlhead many more years*, so $300 hard to justify. Sad.

Back to digesting your great information.

Ben
*OK... I rode my 1961 R69s (highly sup'ed up) for 34 seasons. Wish I had it today. If I have my R1100S as long, I'd be selling it at 98 in 2038. Wouldn't that be a hoot.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/24/12 09:24 PM

This is one of those products that does what is says. They have even added features in the year I've owned mine. Last month they added more graphing and they doubled the sampling rate (just saw that today).

But you have to look at the matrix of features, by model. I don't believe that it supports realtime values for the 1100s.
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/24/12 10:06 PM

The R1100S has the Motronic features of the R1150 series.

I am wondering if the GS-911 would reveal a lot about re-chipping - one of the real mod powerhouse methods? BeemershopMan himself mention the BB Powerchip (like I have sitting ready to be installed). Big questions about how chips modify spark, A/F, etc.

It might be possible to investigate these matters but it might be necessary to have some kind of standard "run" and compare before and after chips on that standard run.

A dyno is such a standard run, so to speak, because it programs the load.

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/25/12 02:18 AM



My guess is that a GS-911 wouldn't give that kind of insight as effectively as a dyno.

I went to the BBPowerchip site. It's amazing to me that the chip guys say almost nothing on their sites about how their products work. I did pick up this though since they don't seem to mind talking about why other products don't work:


"Note:
We warn people urgently not to use gasoline pressure regulators with a higher pressure. (from K-model).
The consequences are more excessive fuel consumption and soot formation and thinning of the oil of the engine.
Big air snorkel called air charger worsen the torque in the lower range, these make only sense from stage 4 on.
Pieces of equipment like PowerCommander, Techlusion u. a. work after unfortunately not as desired our experience and almost always supplies drastic disturbances instead of to an improvement.
Special plug leads are insignificant and from our view pure financial waste , absolute no power gai
n."


Also BTW, here is what Dobeck Engineering says about its Techlusion product in its support forum:

"In order to make any fuel adjustment within light loads and normal cruising we must bypass the narrowband O2 system. Without bypassing the system as we add fuel the stock ECU would just pull it back out and cause bad drivability. We can not simply disconnect the O2 sensors because this will throw an [error code] on most vehicles."

So nothing important is being done by its connection to the O2 sensor.
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/25/12 02:38 AM

Right - nice folks at Techlusion told me 5 yrs ago they were negative on the O2 sensor. Should be self-evident when you think about it.

And Bernard Bernt (BB PowerChip) is a pretty helpful guide, even if his English is no better than my German. But rumor has it that BBP is one of the few chips that addresses spark timing with its 6 progressive stages. The folks at Rhineland West (or something like that) kind of told me they also move the spark on their chip.

The folks who promote Laser exhausts on this continent, are low on my list of honorable dealers, and they generally do not claim to influence spark timing. (Maybe that is why BMW used their product - paradoxical as that may sound.)

But spark timing's about the only place to find the horses, aside from major surgery on the engine (like I've done before). BMW has always (speaking only of the last 50 years) kept a large safety margin - at the expense of power. Bless 'em. As long as you are very broadly within the A/F ballpark, it has little influence on horsepower.

If you have the BBP, you can make a handlebar mounted switch tied to the cat code plug socket and try each map as you roll down the road.

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/25/12 02:38 AM

For anyone interested to read about air balancing vs fuel injector balancing vs richer mixtures. The Background on page 7 of this Fuel Injection Patent is interesting reading.

It makes four key points:
--Rough running under lean conditions is caused by power imbalances between cylinders
--Air Imbalance is not the main cause of these power imbalances
--Fuel injector differences directly result in power imbalances.
--Fuel injector imbalances can be solved by carefully matching injectors, or by running mixtures richer than stoichiometric (14.7:1 AFR)

The Wideband O2 project has taken the richer mixtures route so far. Although I'm considering getting a matched set of injectors and seeing how much the AFR can be pushed in the lean direction.




Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/25/12 02:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
Right - nice folks at Techlusion told me 5 yrs ago they were negative on the O2 sensor. Should be self-evident when you think about it.

And Bernard Bernt (BB PowerChip) is a pretty helpful guide, even if his English is no better than my German. But rumor has it that BBP is one of the few chips that addresses spark timing with its 6 progressive stages. The folks at Rhineland West (or something like that) kind of told me they also move the spark on their chip.

The folks who promote Laser on this continent, are low on my list of honorable dealers, and they generally do not claim to influence spark timing. But that's about the only place to find the horses, aside from major surgery on the engine (like I've done before). As long as you are very broadly within the A/F ballpark, it has little influence on horsepower.

If you have the BBP, you can make a handlebar mounted switch tied to the cat code plug socket and try each map as you roll down the road.

Ben


As long as these "rechipped" Motronic run Closed Loop, these chips can only affect:

--fine tuning of the fuel map for a better closed loop starting point. But it's not clear to me why this is of value since the Motronic has a good capture range. Richen WOT.

--Change the spark-timing and dwell maps.

However, they don't say on their site that they do any of these things in the chip.
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/25/12 04:03 AM

Can a "chip" remove the feedback system?

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/25/12 12:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
Can a "chip" remove the feedback system?

Ben


Yes they could disable closed loop. But it would require a bootleg copy of the code or back-translating from the binary--an expensive, time consuming task. It doesn't seem likely to me.

Finding the fuel and spark data tables is certainly easier, unless you have a bootleg copy of the code, than reverse engineering the source code. The gains for an unmodified R11xx, according to their graphs (which also mention the use of cats), are above 6000 rpm. That being the case the chip MIGHT richen open loop mixtures above 80% throttle. They MIGHT also be able to advance the timing. An interesting note is that they mention gas mileage is about the same, suggesting that there is not fuel being added in most of the cruising rannge.

Dirtrider asked to to look at peak advance in my data sets. He thought it would be 43 degrees, sure enough, the peak value I found was 42.96. So do they advance beyond that or just go to that limit more often? It's anyone's guess since they don't say a word.

Other graphs on their site show gains for pistons, cams and exhausts. Believeable, and with closed loop adaptation, the 1150s might even be able to learn the increased VE and apply it to open loop. If that happened, other than for hypothetical spark advance, no modified chip would be needed.

The last possibility, and I want to mention it since I've read it in a reputable publication, is that the replacement chip is merely a copy. Looking at their site they would have to have reverse engineered, and remeasured a lot of VE configurations, given the scope of of their piston, cam and exhaust product line.

You might be able to use the GS-911 to measure before and after spark advance but it could be hard to correlate the data.
Posted By: NJNeal

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/25/12 02:47 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
For anyone interested to read about air balancing vs fuel injector balancing vs richer mixtures. The Background on page 7 of this Fuel Injection Patent is interesting reading.

It makes four key points:
--Rough running under lean conditions is caused by power imbalances between cylinders
--Air Imbalance is not the main cause of these power imbalances
--Fuel injector differences directly result in power imbalances.
--Fuel injector imbalances can be solved by carefully matching injectors, or by running mixtures richer than stoichiometric (14.7:1 AFR)

The Wideband O2 project has taken the richer mixtures route so far. Although I'm considering getting a matched set of injectors and seeing how much the AFR can be pushed in the lean direction.





Where would you get matched injectors? Is there someone that bench tests injectors and offers matched sets?
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/25/12 10:21 PM

Originally Posted By: NJNeal
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
For anyone interested to read about air balancing vs fuel injector balancing vs richer mixtures. The Background on page 7 of this Fuel Injection Patent is interesting reading.

It makes four key points:
--Rough running under lean conditions is caused by power imbalances between cylinders
--Air Imbalance is not the main cause of these power imbalances
--Fuel injector differences directly result in power imbalances.
--Fuel injector imbalances can be solved by carefully matching injectors, or by running mixtures richer than stoichiometric (14.7:1 AFR)

The Wideband O2 project has taken the richer mixtures route so far. Although I'm considering getting a matched set of injectors and seeing how much the AFR can be pushed in the lean direction.





Where would you get matched injectors? Is there someone that bench tests injectors and offers matched sets?


I posted about that recently somewhere around here.

http://www.rceng.com/

or just take three or so to the shop and match.

BMW are rumored to be not outside 10% which is little comfort, eh. Mine are just a few percent apart. Matching of injectors is both in terms of flow and for spray dispersion - so RC injectors might be better quality than stock from the start.

Ben
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/25/12 10:25 PM

Roger -

Your well-informed and well-intentioned posts are a treat. But in your writing, there are times when I have trouble separating statements "that any rational person would certainly agree with as plausible inferences" from things you know for sure as facts or from some kind of intermediate level of certainty.

Given the slippery nature of truth about the Motronics, that can be an important distinction.

An example is your comment about after-market chips and feedback or reverse engineering.

Ben
Posted By: NJNeal

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/25/12 10:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
Originally Posted By: NJNeal
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
For anyone interested to read about air balancing vs fuel injector balancing vs richer mixtures. The Background on page 7 of this Fuel Injection Patent is interesting reading.

It makes four key points:
--Rough running under lean conditions is caused by power imbalances between cylinders
--Air Imbalance is not the main cause of these power imbalances
--Fuel injector differences directly result in power imbalances.
--Fuel injector imbalances can be solved by carefully matching injectors, or by running mixtures richer than stoichiometric (14.7:1 AFR)

The Wideband O2 project has taken the richer mixtures route so far. Although I'm considering getting a matched set of injectors and seeing how much the AFR can be pushed in the lean direction.





Where would you get matched injectors? Is there someone that bench tests injectors and offers matched sets?


I posted about that recently somewhere around here.

http://www.rceng.com/

or just take three or so to the shop and match.

BMW are rumored to be not outside 10% which is little comfort, eh. Mine are just a few percent apart. Matching of injectors is both in terms of flow and for spray dispersion - so RC injectors might be better quality than stock from the start.

Ben


Thanks for the RC Engineering link. I am not sure which injector is the right one for our bikes, but that seems like a reasonably priced solution for balanced, calibrated injectors. If anyone goes that route, I'd be interested in which injector you buy.
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/25/12 11:13 PM

Just a quick comment about balanced injectors. The GAMI article Roger referenced is talking about aircraft engines. These are large displacement, low rpm, low to moderate horsepower engines with mechanical fuel injection designed to run at constant speed for extended periods of time. I have no idea how mechanical injectors compare to our electronic models, but the differences could be significant. Aircraft fuel injection systems have no closed loop operation to try to balance out cylinders, another significant difference. I would be hesitant to go looking for a solution to a problem that may not exist.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/26/12 02:42 AM

I don't disagree with Karl's conclusion but would like to point out some differences.

The author did reference an aircraft engine but he stated that his work was relevant to all spark ignition engines. I don't see that HP or RPM are relevant to the discussion, but I think it is a good point that none of us know whether our injectors match well or not. That is one of the reasons I mentioned the patent a couple posts ago.

Many of us have taken great care with valve adjustments and throttle body balance. At the same time we know little about two equally important parts of the fuel injection process: the O2 sensor and the fuel injectors. (For the O2 sensor we have no way to measure its AFR switch point or its response speed--more below)

Yes, the patent article talks about continuous flow injectors. The imbalance was a few to several percent. The good point of this kind of injector is that it is always on. The injectors we use in the r11xx bikes are turned off and on every 360 degrees. Not only can the fuel injectors have flow mismatch like the aircraft continuous flow type, but the time it takes to turn them on can vary (Edit: see this link that I found just after posting this Pulse Turn On Time), creating the possibility that at light to mid throttle the mismatch can be even greater than just the flow rate differences. But again, there's no way to test or adjust them at home. We adjust the valves and TBs but because we can't measure or adjust FIs, most of us have to ignore that half of the equation.

There are solutions: measure the injectors at a specialized shop, or run richer mixtures so that the engine is operated near Best Power where, due to lack of oxygen, injector imbalance is less significant. Out of curiosity, I'm going to have mine measured--sample of one pair--then decide what I think of any differences. In the meantime I'm running a slightly richer mixture and getting more low RPM torque and smooth running as a benefit.

Here are some additional thoughts on injector imbalance and O2 sensor interaction:

... On our two cylinder Boxers, if one cylinder is leaner than the other due to injector mismatch, three things can happen in closed loop: 1) Because the average of the two cylinders has to be 14.7, one cylinder is leaner than the other meaning the lean one has an excess of oxygen and while the rich side is depleted of oxygen. The spread between them is related to the fuel injector imbalance in a valve/TB tuned engine. 2) The time for the Motronic program to go from lean to rich and rich to lean is extended because only one cylinder is contributing the oxygen that the Lambda sensor responds to. 3) As the time for the cycle goes up, the fuel ramp in closed loop gets larger, meaning there is a greater modulation of the fuel supply.

The consequence in the leaner cylinder to the longer higher ramp of fuel, is a modulation of that cylinder's power output. While that is happening, the richer cylinder, depleted of oxygen, has an almost insignificant change in its power. The peak to peak variation of fuel can reach 8% or more (especially if the Lambda sensor is old and slow). So the leaner cylinder's power is fluctuating several percent. This can be felt.

Since there are still many surging R1100/1150s around, I offer this as food for thought, to be factored into diagnosis, not as a remedy for every bike.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/26/12 03:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
Roger -

Your well-informed and well-intentioned posts are a treat. But in your writing, there are times when I have trouble separating statements "that any rational person would certainly agree with as plausible inferences" from things you know for sure as facts or from some kind of intermediate level of certainty.

Given the slippery nature of truth about the Motronics, that can be an important distinction.

An example is your comment about after-market chips and feedback or reverse engineering.

Ben


Thanks for the kind comments. I try to use words like might or could for inferences or deductions and use words like data, measured or read for things that seem more certain to me.

Regarding the aftermarket so-called performance chips, I have background in control-system source code development and am familiar with the back-translation process. So I know the costs in manpower and time for that effort. So it's not impossible but it's not easy either, and they make so many exhaust types for a large mix of cars.

With so many R bikes around and my work on my own, I'm trying to expand the discussion though measurement, testing and research. How each owner uses the info is enviously up to them.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/26/12 03:51 AM

Here's a curve of injector latency versus battery voltage


Posted By: Alfred02

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/26/12 05:10 AM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Here's a curve of injector latency versus battery voltage

Sorry, how does this relate at the moment?
Anything past 15Vdc is pointless as our systems, bike or car (assuming it's your normal 12Vdc system) do not ever go past these voltages. Otherwise our batteries would be getting "cooked".
Any voltages below 12Vdc are irrelevant as well, as even if your bike/car would be for a short time below that voltage, once the engine is running/ the charging voltage will very quickly go above 12Vdc and head towards +13Vdc in the moment the engine get's revved above idle speed.

So our interested area of concern should be 12~15Vdc, where we are looking at around a 0.4ms window.
This latency would have a larger influence at higher rpm (at which the battery voltage/charging voltage will be higher and as such latency will be reduced again), due to the possible higher change in % angle before/after TDC.

I don't think that there is any relevance as if it would have...then I am sure the manufacturer would(uses) use a Regulator in the injector circuit to keep the voltage stable and as such have a "known" percentage of latency.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: GS-911 wideband O2 project details - 03/26/12 11:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Alfred02
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Here's a curve of injector latency versus battery voltage

Sorry, how does this relate at the moment?
Anything past 15Vdc is pointless as our systems, bike or car (assuming it's your normal 12Vdc system) do not ever go past these voltages. Otherwise our batteries would be getting "cooked".
Any voltages below 12Vdc are irrelevant as well, as even if your bike/car would be for a short time below that voltage, once the engine is running/ the charging voltage will very quickly go above 12Vdc and head towards +13Vdc in the moment the engine get's revved above idle speed.

So our interested area of concern should be 12~15Vdc, where we are looking at around a 0.4ms window.
This latency would have a larger influence at higher rpm (at which the battery voltage/charging voltage will be higher and as such latency will be reduced again), due to the possible higher change in % angle before/after TDC.

I don't think that there is any relevance as if it would have...then I am sure the manufacturer would(uses) use a Regulator in the injector circuit to keep the voltage stable and as such have a "known" percentage of latency.


Hi Alfred02,

All good questions. My main reasons for showing that curve was to confirm the approximate turn on time, and to show that it varies with battery voltage. And of course I know as well as you that the higher and lower voltages on that chart are mostly irrelevant, although cranking voltages do drop, especially if you have a weak battery, I saw 11V the other day on mine (I need a new battery).

I'm going to answer your questions/comments in the context of an R11xx engine that doesn't run its best at a 14.7:1 closed loop mixture unless things are really well balanced. That's why we get our valves to less than one thousandth, and balance our throttle bodies at multiple RPMs, with a precision differential instrument. I noted earlier that we give almost no attention to fueling imbalances which are just as important to total cylinder power balance. (Nor the O2 sensor)

Your last point, if battery voltage variation was an issue the manufacturer would use a regulator, is valid. And it turns out the manufacture does regulate for battery voltage at the fuel injector. The way it is done is: the Motronic measures the battery voltage, and then looks up in a table what the "net dead time" is and adds that into the fueling calculation.

I added the curve to this thread becasue it shows just how large the "net dead time" meaning the time that the Motronic must add can be--roughly 1 mS at 13.8 volts. At idle, the injector fuel pulse is in the vicinity of 2 mS and at 3500 RPM cruise, about 3.5 mS. So the net dead time is half the idle pulse and almost 1/3 of the 3500 RPM cruise. Any net dead time difference between the injectors will have a significant difference: a 0.1 mS difference would be 10% of the fuel on time at idle, and 4% at 3500 RPM cruise.

Here is a picture that gives an even closer look at how they work.



In the picture you can see that net dead time is comprised of:
--delay to start turning on
--time to ramp up
--delay to stop
--time to ramp down

Another point: the 7 mS time is the total injector time in my example too since our Boxers fire the injectors twice per combustion cycle--half the fuel twice, with two dead time cycles. So my 3.5 mS per injection, doubled is very close to the example given above.

So my points on injector imbalance are that there can be different flow rates and different net dead times, and both are important. And for those of us trying to balance our cylinder power AIR (valves and TB) are one side of the equation and FUEL accuracy is the other. Both are equally important, UNLESS you run a mixture richer than 14.7:1. If you run at 13.8, where all the European CO potentionmeter motorcycles were set, you are almost insensitive to small fueling differences, up to several percent. Then a good TB and Valve job gets it about right.

More food for thought.
RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/29/12 12:01 PM

Yesterday afternoon I disconnected the Wideband O2 sensor so that I could measure the "raw" or Open Loop, Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) of the Motronic MA 2.4., with Pink Coding Plug. And then measure the Open Loop effect of the BoosterPlug. The motorcycle is running 93 Octane E10 fuel, which is important since it has shifted the curves upward by about 4%, meaning running 4% leaner.

In all the charts, there are two marker lines, one is at 14.7:1 (normal Closed Loop stoichiometric) and 13.8:1 (my richer Closed Loop target that creates more power). In the first photo there are two charts: the top chart is Open Loop, the lower Open Loop plus BoosterPlug.

The top chart below shows Open Loop AFR, after the Motronic is reset, and from a Cold start. For the first three minutes, you can see the AFR moving from 13:1 to the low 15s as the bike oil warms up. If I were running pure gas, the warmup would be in the 14.7 range, but E10 leans out the mixture. Much of the cruising time, the AFR is between 15:1 and 16.5:1--fairly lean. Notice in the histogram inset chart that the bulk of AFRs are between 14:1 and 16:1, even including acceleration.

The in the lower chart, the bike is warm, the Motronic is still reset but a BoosterPlug has been connected, dropping the air inlet temperature (AIT) signal to the Motronic by 20C. There is a similarly large spread of AFRs, but now they run between 13:1 and 15:1, about 6-7% richer. I was surprised at how much the AFR varies in Open Loop operation.



For comparison, look at the next photo, the conditions are reset Motronic, no BoosterPlug and Closed Loop at 13.8:1. The upper run is the first test run after reset and the lower run is the second run after reset. Since the Motronic is only Closed Loop about half the time in these charts, and comparing these two runs to the first photo (Open Loop conditions), you see Adaptation, the learning of Closed Loop applied to Open Loop conditions, and in the second run looking at the even tighter spread of AFRs, further Adaptation.



Some conclusions:

1) E10 fuel results in leaner Open Loop operation
2) Open Loop fueling results in a wide variation of AFRs
3) The BoosterPlug does enrichen the fueling tables by 6-7%
4) Closed Loop operation tightens the fueling range
5) Closed Loop operation allows the Motronic to correct for E10, aging injectors and air filters, and variations in battery voltage and fuel pressure.
6) The Motronic is a learning, adapting engine controller that takes what it measures in Closed Loop operation and applies it to adjust Open Loop fueling. (The mechanisms and degree could be examined further.)
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/29/12 03:45 PM

This is most interesting Roger. This data has convinced me that I want nothing to do with late model Beemers or late model anything when it comes to motorcycles. At yesterday's Big Twin airhead get together several guys expressed their opinions pertaining to ECU controlled motorcycles and I must say I mostly agree with them.
Must be my age is showing. laugh
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 11:35 AM

Originally Posted By: JamesW
This is most interesting Roger. This data has convinced me that I want nothing to do with late model Beemers or late model anything when it comes to motorcycles. At yesterday's Big Twin airhead get together several guys expressed their opinions pertaining to ECU controlled motorcycles and I must say I mostly agree with them.
Must be my age is showing. laugh


Bosch and others have done themselves a disservice by being so secretive. At their cores, ECUs are fairly simple:

1. Read TPS (or Manifold Pressure) and RPM, look up an injector on-time
2. Adjust for air temperature, air pressure and battery voltage
________Adjust for Oxygen Sensor feedback
________Add fuel if the oil is cold
3. Fire the injector

The devil here is servicing the needs of the catalytic converter. It needs to get a flow of exhaust gas with a little bit of oxygen followed by no oxygen to keep the cat happy. That means constantly varying the fuel by a several percent around a 14.7:1 air-to-fuel ratio. A good byproduct is that as the ECU (Motronic) learns how much adjustment is needed to hit 14.7:1, it learns about engine "wear" (injectors, air filter, throttle bodies, cylinder carbonizing, etc.) and adds some corrections.

Although the engine is happier with the excess fuel of a 13.5:1 mixture, the cat is happy only around 14.7:1 with the result that the cylinder head and exhaust gas temperatures are hottest and the mixture is just lean enough to be sensitive to small changes in air and fuel--and we can feel it. At this point there are a couple choices:

--Keep our bikes super-tuned and live with the rough edges.

--Find ways to richen the mixture and enjoy performance more like "the good old days". (But knowing that the Motronic will do everything in its power to negate your attempts.)

I'm starting to grow fond of the Motronic 2.4 and think of it as the new, old days.


Posted By: smiller

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
... At this point there are a couple choices: ...

Or install a Power Commander USBIII with a wideband O2 sensor. In that case the Power Commander will take over closed-loop operation so you can set the value to be anything you like, and you also can tweak the open-loop map if desired. All easily settable by a laptop computer, and you can save and apply various configurations at will making testing very easy. You can even directly read realtime A/F ratio (as read by the wideband sensor), injector duty cycle, rpm, throttle position,. etc. on the laptop, or an external gauge.

As for me I ended up with a 14.2:1 closed loop setting (best compromise I could find between throttle response and fuel economy, and even at that it is notably better than the very lean stock setting) and I richened the open-loop mixture a bit in the 'surge range' (<5% throttle position and between 3-4000 rpm.) Everything else stock. This has worked well for me on an 1100RT.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 05:58 PM

Originally Posted By: smiller
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
... At this point there are a couple choices: ...

Or install a Power Commander USBIII with a wideband O2 sensor. In that case the Power Commander will take over closed-loop operation so you can set the value to be anything you like, and you also can tweak the open-loop map if desired. All easily settable by a laptop computer, and you can save and apply various configurations at will making testing very easy. You can even directly read realtime A/F ratio (as read by the wideband sensor), injector duty cycle, rpm, throttle position,. etc. on the laptop, or an external gauge.

As for me I ended up with a 14.2:1 closed loop setting (best compromise I could find between throttle response and fuel economy, and even at that it is notably better than the very lean stock setting) and I richened the open-loop mixture a bit in the 'surge range' (<5% throttle position and between 3-4000 rpm.) Everything else stock. This has worked well for me on an 1100RT.


I agree with you that the PowerCommander III is one of the good ways to achieve a richer mixture. I have been thinking about going back to 14.0 to 14.2:1 although my economy is good. Something in that range will pretty much insure that the leanest cylinder has some excess fuel.

Two things are unclear about the PowerCommander to me:

1) When you add a percentage to the fuel, does it know to take injector on-time and off-time into account (matters for small pulse widths)? I guess one could do that manually as values were put in the Open Loop table.

2) In addition to Close Loop (and I think it does that on the BMW versions, though not all), does it also create Adaptation Values as it learns about fueling through it's own Closed Loop, since the Motronic will no longer perform that function (since its O2 is disconnected)?

Other than those questions, and its price ($495 vs $170 for an LC-1), I think it is one of the better solutions.
Posted By: smiller

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 06:12 PM

1. The Power Commander sits between the Motronic and the bike, meaning it has its own O2 sensor, connection to TPS, and takes over control of the injectors (the Motronic injector connectors themselves are left disconnected after a PC install.) So in closed loop it becomes the ECU, and in open loop it passes through Motronic commands to the injectors, modifying them at certain throttle position/rpm ranges if and only if you have entered any changes.

2. Good question, I do not know if the PC maintains fuel trims. And you are right that only a subset of Power Commander BMW applications provide full closed-loop control. The PCIIUSB 'Wideband Power Commander' series for the oilheads does, but not necessarily others.

You can get them for maybe $100 off of list so more like the high $300 range, but yes, not the least expensive solution. But it is effective, supported, and plug-and-play for the less technically inclined so that's some of the things you are paying for I guess.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: smiller
1. The Power Commander sits between the Motronic and the bike, meaning it has its own O2 sensor, connection to TPS, and takes over control of the injectors (the Motronic injector connectors themselves are left disconnected after a PC install.) So in closed loop it becomes the ECU, and in open loop it passes through Motronic commands to the injectors, modifying them at certain throttle position/rpm ranges if and only if you have entered any changes.

2. Good question, I do not know if the PC maintains fuel trims. And you are right that only a subset of Power Commander BMW applications provide full closed-loop control. The PCIIUSB 'Wideband Power Commander' series for the oilheads does, but not necessarily others.

You can get them for maybe $100 off of list so more like the high $300 range, but yes, not the least expensive solution. But it is effective, supported, and plug-and-play for the less technically inclined so that's some of the things you are paying for I guess.


A slight correction, the stock TPS and at least one of the Injector connectors do connect to the PCIII, perhaps one of the injector connectors is left unattached.

That said, I agree that PCIII USB is a more standard, supported, plug and play approach to the challenge of richening the mixture. Unlike the Techlusion, when you program the PowerCommander you have a pretty good idea of how much fuel you're adding and where you're adding it.

Posted By: bmwnomad

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: smiller
1. The Power Commander sits between the Motronic and the bike, meaning it has its own O2 sensor, connection to TPS, and takes over control of the injectors (the Motronic injector connectors themselves are left disconnected after a PC install.) So in closed loop it becomes the ECU, and in open loop it passes through Motronic commands to the injectors, modifying them at certain throttle position/rpm ranges if and only if you have entered any changes.


That's incorrect.

You have to think of the BMW Power Commander as 2 distinct pieces of hardware. The original PC3 is still there reading the injector duty cycle and then outputting a modified duty cycle based on a percentage in its map. The other part works exactly like the LC-1, it reads the wideband O2 sensor and using the user defined AFR then outputs a signal to the BMW ECM thru the original O2 sensor connector that it is richer or leaner than that value. The BMW ECM still thinks its receiving a narrowband O2 signal.

As for injector on-time/off-time, it modifies the duty cycle from the previous injector pulse.

You are still able to enter a value into each cell (for example, add 5%) but since the BMW ECM will usually be in closed-loop operation, the value doesn't "stick". I've found that the BMW ECM will compensate for up to +/- 25% change, tested in my driveway. I added 25% to the idle, bike ran rough for a few secs and AFR was very rich and slowly the bike came back to it's 14.0:1 AFR I had set, anything farther out than that and the ECM didn't correct it.

The BMW Power Commander doesn't learn anything, btw.

There's also a hidden menu that you can add an offset to the closed loop area* of the Power Commander map, I've added 5% on mine. IMHO, the BMW Power Commander is a much better solution than a booster plug since it modifies only the fuel injector output, spoofing the inputs is risky since no one actually knows what the BMW ECM is doing with that info. We can assume, but you know what that means.

*The Closed Loop area on the BMW Power Commander map is for show only. The BMWPC doesn't actually know when the system is in closed or open loop, it simply outputs a signal to the BMW ECM O2 line all the time, it's up to the BMW ECM to react to it. Through careful testing, similar to my idle test above, you can see where the BMW ECM reacts or doesn't react to the O2 sensor signal.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: bmwnomad
... The other part works exactly like the LC-1, it reads the wideband O2 sensor and using the user defined AFR then outputs a signal to the BMW ECM thru the original O2 sensor connector that it is richer or leaner than that value. The BMW ECM still thinks its receiving a narrowband O2 signal.

As for injector on-time/off-time, it modifies the duty cycle from the previous injector pulse.

You are still able to enter a value into each cell (for example, add 5%) but since the BMW ECM will usually be in closed-loop operation, the value doesn't "stick". I've found that the BMW ECM will compensate for up to +/- 25% change, tested in my driveway. I added 25% to the idle, bike ran rough for a few secs and AFR was very rich and slowly the bike came back to it's 14.0:1 AFR I had set, anything farther out than that and the ECM didn't correct it.

The BMW Power Commander doesn't learn anything, btw.

There's also a hidden menu that you can add an offset to the closed loop area* of the Power Commander map, I've added 5% on mine. IMHO, the BMW Power Commander is a much better solution than a booster plug since it modifies only the fuel injector output, spoofing the inputs is risky since no one actually knows what the BMW ECM is doing with that info. We can assume, but you know what that means.

*The Closed Loop area on the BMW Power Commander map is for show only. The BMWPC doesn't actually know when the system is in closed or open loop, it simply outputs a signal to the BMW ECM O2 line all the time, it's up to the BMW ECM to react to it. Through careful testing, similar to my idle test above, you can see where the BMW ECM reacts or doesn't react to the O2 sensor signal.


You've made a lot of interesting comments. I hadn't realized the PCIII sends the signal back into the Motronic. That's not clear from the documentation.

And I fully agree that it's a better solution (by far) than a BoosterPlug for richening the mixture. By feeding the Wideband signal into the Motronic, it keeps the Motronic doing all its good things.

Based on what you've said, if you attach the Wideband, you can only influence Open Loop fueling in areas where the Motronic doesn't use Closed Loop, near WOT.

Although you have to do the power wiring yourself (I bought a small plastic utility box) and you have to harvest the O2 connector from your old Narrowband sensor, the LC-1 seems to do most of what's needed at about half the price. But, I agree that the PCIII is more plug and play.
Posted By: smiller

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: bmwnomad
You have to think of the BMW Power Commander as 2 distinct pieces of hardware. The original PC3 is still there reading the injector duty cycle and then outputting a modified duty cycle based on a percentage in its map. The other part works exactly like the LC-1, it reads the wideband O2 sensor and using the user defined AFR then outputs a signal to the BMW ECM thru the original O2 sensor connector that it is richer or leaner than that value. The BMW ECM still thinks its receiving a narrowband O2 signal.

No, the PCIIIUSB does not spoof the BMW O2 sensor input (other than to provide voltage cycling to keep the Moronic happy.) Otherwise the WB-PCIII is in total control of closed loop. This information is from multiple conversations with their tech support, including on one occasion the engineer who wrote the firmware.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: smiller
...
No, the PCIIIUSB does not spoof the BMW O2 sensor input (other than to provide voltage cycling to keep the Moronic happy.)...


That's what the Techlusion does. Connects to the O2 sensor input just to keep the Motronic from throwing an error code.
Posted By: smiller

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 07:20 PM

Yes, and in addition the PCIII provides true closed-loop control rather than removing it. It operates similar to other alpha-n systems in that it looks at TPS and engine speed and determines when closed-loop operation is appropriate. If so it operates as the ECU using the replacement wideband sensor to maintain set A/F ratio and when in open loop it uses the Motronic output as a baseline. The reason the previous poster saw a correction at idle is probably because the thing decided to settle into closed-loop and corrected to the set ratio. To provide cold-start enrichment they use an algorithm based on number of revolutions since start, etc., and allow the Motronic to control during that time (since the PCIII can't know things like engine temp.) They wouldn't go into the details of that with me as I guess they consider it proprietary.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: smiller
Yes, and in addition the PCIII provides true closed-loop control rather than removing it. It operates similar to other alpha-n systems in that it looks at TPS and engine speed and determines when closed-loop operation is appropriate. If so it operates as the ECU using the replacement wideband sensor to maintain set A/F ratio and when in open loop it uses the Motronic output as a baseline. The reason the previous poster saw a correction at idle is probably because the thing decided to settle into closed-loop and corrected to the set ratio. To provide cold-start enrichment they use an algorithm based on number of revolutions since start, etc., and allow the Motronic to control during that time (since the PCIII can't know things like engine temp.) They wouldn't go into the details of that with me as I guess they consider it proprietary.


That all makes sense to me. The PCIII has to get RPM information from the injector pulse rep rate which it can measure. Then measure pulse width and use it as a starting point to add/subtract fuel to.

There are three types of start up enrichments that I've read about, two of which I've seen in my measurements:

Cranking: A few shots of a lot of extra fuel
After Start: Extra rich for the next 150-200 cycles
Warm-up: From about 13.0 to 14.7 while the engine warms to 55-60C. This takes about 3-5 minutes. So the PCIII probably waits for that amount of time since it doesn't tap into the Oil Temp sensor.

Good stuff.
Posted By: smiller

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 07:58 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Warm-up: From about 13.0 to 14.7 while the engine warms to 55-60C. This takes about 3-5 minutes. So the PCIII probably waits for that amount of time since it doesn't tap into the Oil Temp sensor.

Yes, except from watching operation the PC seems to come on-line faster if the engine is already warm so it may be a little more sophisticated than a simple wait, such as the PC may be looking at A/F ratio and thus detect when the Motronic comes off of cold enrichment.

I think what they are doing is a Cadillac solution but is also complex and costly, and maybe overkill if all you want is to get rid of the worst of the Motronic lean-fueling issues. But a great option if you want to spend the $$.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: smiller
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Warm-up: From about 13.0 to 14.7 while the engine warms to 55-60C. This takes about 3-5 minutes. So the PCIII probably waits for that amount of time since it doesn't tap into the Oil Temp sensor.

Yes, except from watching operation the PC seems to come on-line faster if the engine is already warm so it may be a little more sophisticated than a simple wait, such as the PC may be looking at A/F ratio and thus detect when the Motronic comes off of cold enrichment.

I think what they are doing is a Cadillac solution but is also complex and costly, and maybe overkill if all you want is to get rid of the worst of the Motronic lean-fueling issues. But a great option if you want to spend the $$.


That would be a clever and entirely plausible thing for it to do. Here is a possibility:

--Wait for the Bosch Wideband Sensor to heat up. It know when this occurs since the PCIII controls the heater.

--Then wait for a number of cycles for the AFR to stabilize. Sometimes the LC-1 reports a high AFR just after warm-start.

--Then watch until AFR crosses up to 14.4:1 (?? a guess).

--Then start its Closed Loop or whatever routines it runs.

I still see it as one of the better ways to get the job done. At least you have a good idea how much fuel it is adding and when, unlike some other approaches.

Posted By: bmwnomad

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 08:07 PM

I use the PC in multiple configurations and on numerous bikes on a daily basis. Talked to and met many of the people at Dynojet and have a $250,000 dyno room to play in whenever I need to. The BMW PC works exactly as I described. I have disconnect the fuel injectors and TPS input and left only the Wideband sensor and BMW O2 sensor connectors (9v battery for power) attached the unit "will" spoof the user defined AFR. I have done the reverse and the BMW PC works exactly as an ordinary PC3. That's all I will say on this subject, I've been following this thread and thought I would throw in a correction, nevermind then.

Steve
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 08:10 PM

Originally Posted By: bmwnomad
I use the PC in multiple configurations and on numerous bikes on a daily basis. Talked to and met many of the people at Dynojet and have a $250,000 dyno room to play in whenever I need to. The BMW PC works exactly as I described. I have disconnect the fuel injectors and TPS input and left only the Wideband sensor and BMW O2 sensor connectors (9v battery for power) attached the unit "will" spoof the user defined AFR. I have done the reverse and the BMW PC works exactly as an ordinary PC3. That's all I will say on this subject, I've been following this thread and thought I would throw in a correction, nevermind then.

Steve


I think your additions to this thread have been good. Part of the problem with the Motronic, PCIII, Techlusion and many other products is that there is little documentation on how they work. That has left it to the user to conduct experiments to figure out what is what.

I'm just a bike rider/owner that likes to know how things work and has the time to experiment.

RB
Posted By: smiller

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 08:16 PM

Yes, when it was finally explained to me how it works from someone who knows (took a while to get there) I found myself asking but... but... if it wants to be the primary ECU 'how do it know' how to handle out-of-range engine temp conditions such as cold start? That's when they explained the above but weren't too forthcoming on the details, I think purposefully, even though I was being a minor PITA in trying to get through to engineering. Maybe they thought I worked for the competition and I should have just explained I was a BMW geek... then they would have understood. grin


Edit: Steve, I am only detailing what I was told on multiple occasions and how it seems to work from my own experimentation. If your experiences have been different I have no explanation. We are all just discussing here and disagreement is not meant as an offense.

Posted By: smiller

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 09:19 PM

And a question (and I do hope you won't bow out of the thread)... if closed-loop operation does work as you describe with the PCIII, what would be the functional difference either way? Meaning, from your description of operation the operator sets the desired closed-loop value and when the Motronic decides closed-loop is appropriate it is spoofed into providing that ratio. In what I was told the PC decides, but does it really matter? The objective is to allow the user to set open and closed loop fueling values and that is what occurs regardless of which device decides when to enter closed-loop. As an aside, what I find confusing is that even if either the individuals I spoke to didn't understand (which I would find surprising given who I spoke to, but I'll leave it at that) or I myself misunderstood, where did the description of cold start operation come from? If the Motronic is in control then there would be no need for the cold start functionality at all and it seems a little complex for someone to have just made up. Just a rhetorical question since there's no way either of us could know the answer, but all somewhat perplexing.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 04/30/12 09:28 PM

Tempted by JamesW's OP here, I programmed lambda on my LC-1 to 0.92 this afternoon and went for a ride. If I were running pure-gasoline like JamesW that would be an AFR of about 13.5:1, same as the Dyno measured his bike. But since I'm running what the pump says is Premium E10, my AFR is nearer 13.0:1.

I collected and plotted the data as usual, and the Motronic locked onto the new AFR setting as usual. Because of the E10, in order to get to lambda=0.92, the Motronic had to add about 13% more fuel than the base map calls for.

The ride was terrific, the engine seemed somewhat smoother than lambda=0.94 where I've been running lately and at 2600 RPM, 40 MPH in 5th gear, the 1150RT had no problem smoothly climbing a medium grade hill. I wonder when the power stops getting better? I must be about there but I'm thinking there must be someone who races and knows better than me.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 05/10/12 08:59 PM

Today I had the chance to answer a question that's been on my mind, how would my 04 RT run if I programmed lambda from 0.94 where the Wideband O2 has been (13.8) to a leaner than stock setting of lambda=1.06 (15.6:1)? The answer: Not Terrible.

After programming the LC-1 to the leaner setting, and then resetting the Motronic and removing the BoosterPlug, I ran a 10 mile test loop. At first, during the warm-up phase with enrichment by the Motronic and Open Loop, it seemed fine. But as I passed through 4 bars on the temperature gauge, it was apparent that the motorcycle was noticeably less responsive to the throttle. Then, fully warmed up, I started a climb through the gears, guess what? The motocycle surged around 3000 RPM in second, third and fourth gears--not a pronounced surging, just subtle modulation of the torque and shifting note at the exhaust. I couldn't wait to get back and reset to lambda=0.94.

So what did I learn? There is definitely an AFR component to the Boxer surging phenomenon: 6% leaner than stock is too lean for sure, and I know that 6% richer is great. Where is the spot in between the two ends that is just rich enough? Just a guess, somewhere between 14.0 and 14.4.


Posted By: Carl U

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/13/12 02:17 AM

A little history, I bought my '02 Rt in '04 and immediately put a Techlusion R259 on it in an effort to eliminate the dreaded surge. After playing for eight years, I bought the Booster plug and also disconnected the 02 sensor. Just wanted everyone to know that it was like I bought a new Bike! It now rides as the bike BMW should have produced.

Just wanted to advise and thank those who did all the hard work in sorting things out for those of us that do not have the expertise!


Carl U.
PCU9000@Yahoo.Com

'02 RT
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/13/12 05:19 AM

Hello Carl,
I basically did the same thing you did with my '04RT only difference is I use a home made booster plug which I believe closely performs like the real thing. The other thing I have done is connect a jumper from pin 30 to pin 87 of the code plug socket thereby simulating a yellow code plug. I had been simulating a green code plug which I preferred over the stock pink plug. Also, have disconnected the O2 sensor. My bike now runs and performs perfectly with the smoothest idle I have ever seen on a motorcycle. Acceleration is great and it cruises effortlessly in 6th gear yet. In 8 years I have never used 6th gear as the bike always felt like it was laboring below 4.5K RPM in 6th. Now all that has changed as it feels great at 3.5K in 6th no less. I decided to try the yellow CCP configuration based on a suggestion made by this threads starter, that being Roger, to another poster. It certainly did work for me. I wish I knew more about the different code plugs and how the different fueling maps function in the motronic 2.4 as they are selected by the different code plugs. I should also say that I did balance the throttle bodies using the TB stop screws with both brass air bypass screws set 1-1/4 turns out from fully closed. This after careful cleaning of throttle bodies.

That pretty much sums up the alterations I have made and I am very satisfied with the results. We shall soon see what a dyno run shows. smile
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/13/12 10:34 AM

I'm really pleased for Carl and James. The research in this thread is built on the tall shoulders of others who have made hundreds of posts in this forum and others. We are grateful to them.

Here are two others who have used the same solution:

WJ IN Ohio: 2001 R1150GS w Richer Mixture

N in NJ: 2003 R1150RT w Richer Mixture

I'm aware of a couple other trials. A key to the success of this approach is that the bike be well maintained and tuned in all the ways that are so well described in this forum, including a well done TB balance and cleaning if needed. Getting an equal amount of air in each cylinder is critical.

Here, again, is what happens when you disconnect the O2 sensor and add a BoosterPlug or an equivalent. The top chart is the open loop AFR and the bottom is open with the BoosterPlug added (AFR improves from about 15:1 to about 14:1). Both charts would be an additional 4% richer if pure gas were used rather than the E10 I have to run:


Lastly, again the chart of a stock O2 sensor replaced by an LC-1 which is then programmed to 13.8:1. In this config I can easily cruise at 2600 RPM in 6th gear, a bit over 50 MPH, there is that much torque there.

Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/13/12 02:50 PM

I bought a second IAT sensor and received it last week to replace the 2.2K resistor i placed in series with the IAT on the bike. Now there's two IAT sensors in series to simulate the Booster plug. When replacing the resistor for the second IAT sensor I discovered that the 2.2 K resistor was bad. It was open. I was riding the bike without any IAT sensor. I loved my bike with the bad (open) resistor and O2 sensor disconnected. The low end grunt was there like I loved.
I had the torque feeling of old air head BMW motors.

Yesterday when placing the second IAT sensor in series with the one on the bike, I made a Motronic reset and made a ride, Now, it seems that the low end torque I loved so much disappeared, Acceleration is good but the torque feeling I loved so much is gone.

Without any IAT sensor and O2 disconnected, what is the air/fuel ratio I had with this bike ?

Now the bike has better idle but I miss what I loved previously without any IAT sensor.

My bike is a R1150RT twin spark which didn't have any surging problems.
Posted By: taylor1

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/13/12 04:01 PM

I have been following Rogers posts from the start and now think I have a decent understanding of what he is doing and how the montronics work on these bikes THANKS !
I have a 2002 RT that very noticeable surged when I first got it. After a very careful TB, valve adjustment, along with changing to Iridium plugs, a great deal of the surge was eliminated.
After reading a bit and talking to which I believed well informed people, I did a few other mods. I was able to find a used Lennys induct and purchased his rocket sprockets. Along with that, I purchased a Laser power chip and cat.elim. exhaust. I was told by Laser to pull my ccp and disconnect the O2. After doing this it totally transformed my bike. I have to work hard at trying to find any surge. The low end grunt is almost to much. When I crack the throttle in first the front end wants to come up.I believe the cam sprockets and the Laser chip made the most difference.I was told that the chip was double layered.I could not get an answer from Laser for exactly what that meant, or how and why the chip changed the fuel maps, but I do know it really improved the performance.I ride with a friend on an 04 RT and every time we have switched bikes his comment is on how great mine runs. I know this is not a race bike and do not want it to be, but it is certainly alot of fun to tinker with and feel the differences. I have been told that there are know real gains to be had with the mods out there ,in which I regard as hogwash. I find it very interesting what you guys are doing and the results you are achieving. Please keep it up and keep us posted
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/13/12 04:29 PM

Originally Posted By: legarem
I bought a second IAT sensor and received it last week to replace the 2.2K resistor i placed in series with the IAT on the bike. Now there's two IAT sensors in series to simulate the Booster plug. When replacing the resistor for the second IAT sensor I discovered that the 2.2 K resistor was bad. It was open. I was riding the bike without any IAT sensor. I loved my bike with the bad (open) resistor and O2 sensor disconnected. The low end grunt was there like I loved.
I had the torque feeling of old air head BMW motors.

Yesterday when placing the second IAT sensor in series with the one on the bike, I made a Motronic reset and made a ride, Now, it seems that the low end torque I loved so much disappeared, Acceleration is good but the torque feeling I loved so much is gone.

Without any IAT sensor and O2 disconnected, what is the air/fuel ratio I had with this bike ?

Now the bike has better idle but I miss what I loved previously without any IAT sensor.

My bike is a R1150RT twin spark which didn't have any surging problems.


Posted answer in the AIT thread.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/13/12 04:31 PM

Originally Posted By: taylor1
I have been following Rogers posts from the start and now think I have a decent understanding of what he is doing and how the montronics work on these bikes THANKS !
I have a 2002 RT that very noticeable surged when I first got it. After a very careful TB, valve adjustment, along with changing to Iridium plugs, a great deal of the surge was eliminated.
After reading a bit and talking to which I believed well informed people, I did a few other mods. I was able to find a used Lennys induct and purchased his rocket sprockets. Along with that, I purchased a Laser power chip and cat.elim. exhaust. I was told by Laser to pull my ccp and disconnect the O2. After doing this it totally transformed my bike. I have to work hard at trying to find any surge. The low end grunt is almost to much. When I crack the throttle in first the front end wants to come up.I believe the cam sprockets and the Laser chip made the most difference.I was told that the chip was double layered.I could not get an answer from Laser for exactly what that meant, or how and why the chip changed the fuel maps, but I do know it really improved the performance.I ride with a friend on an 04 RT and every time we have switched bikes his comment is on how great mine runs. I know this is not a race bike and do not want it to be, but it is certainly alot of fun to tinker with and feel the differences. I have been told that there are know real gains to be had with the mods out there ,in which I regard as hogwash. I find it very interesting what you guys are doing and the results you are achieving. Please keep it up and keep us posted


If the Lazer chip is richer, and you pulled the O2. The richer settings would be effective. Good to hear it worked for you. It would be interesting to know how much fuel they add. 13:1, 13.2:1, 13.8:1, etc. Thanks for posting.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 05/14/12 12:07 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Today I had the chance to answer a question that's been on my mind, how would my 04 RT run if I programmed lambda from 0.94 where the Wideband O2 has been (13.8) to a leaner than stock setting of lambda=1.06 (15.6:1)? The answer: Not Terrible.

After programming the LC-1 to the leaner setting, and then resetting the Motronic and removing the BoosterPlug, I ran a 10 mile test loop. At first, during the warm-up phase with enrichment by the Motronic and Open Loop, it seemed fine. But as I passed through 4 bars on the temperature gauge, it was apparent that the motorcycle was noticeably less responsive to the throttle. Then, fully warmed up, I started a climb through the gears, guess what? The motocycle surged around 3000 RPM in second, third and fourth gears--not a pronounced surging, just subtle modulation of the torque and shifting note at the exhaust. I couldn't wait to get back and reset to lambda=0.94.

So what did I learn? There is definitely an AFR component to the Boxer surging phenomenon: 6% leaner than stock is too lean for sure, and I know that 6% richer is great. Where is the spot in between the two ends that is just rich enough? Just a guess, somewhere between 14.0 and 14.4.



After making this test run at 15.6:1, I turned off the motorcycle, quickly reprogrammed the LC-1 to 13.8:1 which is an instantaneous change for it. I also reconnected the BoosterPlug. Then I quickly reset the Motronic, twisted the throttle twice and restarted.

The motorcycle immediately went into Closed Loop mode (see the chart photo below, top line is 15.6:1 lower line is 13.8:1) but was running still at 15.6:1 ! Apparantly I was too quick with Fuse 5 and the Motronic didn't reset. It still had its adaptation values for closed loop idle at 15.6.

After about 10 seconds after start, it caught on that the mixture was too rich and by about 15 seconds after start had locked to the 13.8:1. This is the clearest example of Closed Loop Adaptation Values that I have spotted. (And it seems it takes more that 20 sec. to reset the Motronic--or I only think I reset it and forgot.)

I programmed it to 13.8:1 but it ran for short time at 15.6:1, it had to have remembered it from a few minutes earlier!



Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 & Open Loop Fueling - 05/14/12 03:28 PM

Interesting, I have suspected that removing F5 to reset the motronic after making a change like to a different ccp is largely a waste of time as the ecu will very quickly adapt. Also shows that there is much yet to learn about the workings of the ecu aka motronic. If I had a scope I would try different code plugs and look at the time on of the injectors to get an idea how fueling is affected by different maps.

Going off into the wilds of eastern Oregon for 3 days on the '04RT today so will find out how some of my mods perform or not. Yes, I will have a milk shake when I get to Fields, OR. Steens Mountain beckons. laugh
Posted By: roger 04 rt

GS-911 as Intertia Dynomometer - 05/19/12 09:39 PM

The GS-911 time stamps, to the millisecond, all the data it collects. Somewhere along the line it hit me that it could be used as a Inertia Dynomometer since it collects RPM data and the transmission ratios are printed in the R1150 BMW Repair Manual.

I've also been curious about the 1150 Torque at 2000 RPM at a 13.8:1 mixture. The final piece of the puzzle was using some of the HP physics that I boned-up on for the R1150 Gas Mileage thread.

A couple key (rough) numbers:

--8 to 12 ft/sec-squared is a decent rate of acceleration for town and highway driving.

--R1150RT and rider (in my case) weigh about 800 lbs.

--It takes 25 to 30 horsepower to accelerate bike and rider at 8-12 ft/sec2 plus 2-10 horsepower for aerodynamic drag between 30 and 60 MPH

--25 Horsepower corresponds to 65 ft-lbs of torque required at 2000 RPM. But 40 HP translates to only 52 ft-lbs. at 4000 RPM.

Have a look at the chart and data below which were taken in 4th and 5th gear, starting at 1500 RPM and 2000 RPM respectively and with Wide Open Throttle. It looks like (and felt like) there was just enough torque to meet the HP/Torque/Acceleration targets above at about 2000 RPM in 4th gear and about 2500 RPM in 5th.

There's lots to discover but, for instance, look at the 81 degree TPS angle and the 60-70 ft-lbs of torque. Notice too, the relatively flat rate of acceleration from 2000/2500 to 4000 RPM. It's making more HP as it accelerates but air-related drag is increasing too.

The graphs are choppy because I didn't use a high enough sampling rate and drop off at 4000 RPM or so because that's where I let go of the throttle on the in-town road where I was trying this out.


Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: GS-911 as Intertia Dynomometer - 06/26/12 07:24 PM

Now that I have about 2000 miles on my '04 1150RT, wanted to see how things have settled in. It has been a couple of months since I last reset the Motronic and cleared any Adaptation Values that might have been "learned" by the Motronic. So I made a couple checks.

First I measured the warm-up transition from start to running closed loop. As mentioned, I haven't reset my Motronic for over a month and have taken many, varied rides. I wanted to see how things looked and whether there was clearly ADAPTATION going on. The results are that the Motronic has "learned" about the BoosterPlug, E10 fuel I run and Wideband O2 set at 13.8:1.

The result that can be seen from the chart below is that everything has been shifted to the desired afr of 13.8:1, including the cranking and warm up period. Booster, E10 fuel and LC-1 are operating in harmony with each other.

Below is the warm-up from a cold (85F is cold today) to hot (Closed Loop) motor. You can see the cranking and afterstart enrichment on the left at about 12-12.5:1, the initial warmup at 13.1:1 (about 5% below 13.8), final warmup enrichment at 13.3:1 (3%) for a few seconds and then smoothly transitioning into closed loop for the right hand half of the chart. The Close Loop AFR spread is a mere 2.5% because of the speed of the LC-1. Gas mileage from for the most recent tank of fuel running premium E10 was 44 mpg(235 miles and 5.3 gallons).

The lines on the chart are blue 13.8:1 and red 13.3:1.


Here is an Autolite Plug with 2,000 miles of mostly local driving at 13.8.

Posted By: legarem

Re: GS-911 as Intertia Dynomometer - 06/27/12 12:10 AM

Hi Roger

I love your graphs but can you give me your feeling about driving the bike at 13.8. Acceleration ? Torque ?

Is it really different from my setting with O2 disconnected with BP ?

Is there more difference between 13.8 operation and my setting than my setting vs stock condition ?

Thanks a lot
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: GS-911 as Intertia Dynomometer - 06/27/12 03:18 AM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Hi Roger

I love your graphs but can you give me your feeling about driving the bike at 13.8. Acceleration ? Torque ?

Is it really different from my setting with O2 disconnected with BP ?

Is there more difference between 13.8 operation and my setting than my setting vs stock condition ?

Thanks a lot


On my bike the torque range has been extended downward. The other day I was in traffic going 75 in 6th, traffic slowed to 45 and then reaccelerated to 75. I never downshifted. In most gears there's a lot of muscle at 2000-2500 rpm, by 2700 rpm it's flying. I run one gear higher than before most of the time.

How is the LC-1 different from open loop and booster? It may not be. If your injectors have average flow rate, fuel pressure is average and you run fuel without ethanol, you get a similar result either way. The curve above shows that with an LC-1 wideband, even if fuel pressure and injectors are on the low side, battery voltage is low and you're running E10 fuel, you are guaranteed to get 13.8 or whatever you've programmed. This happens because with the LC-1 you continue to use the Motronic's powerful closed loop adaptive algorithms.

Because we haven't put measurement instruments on your bike it's hard to say what the difference would be. But I can imagine this Open Loop scenario: E10, low fuel pressure, low injector flow leading to 12% leaness. So if the BoosterPlug adds 6% richness you would still be 6% leaner than closed loop. In other words the actual Open Loop improvement is bike dependent.

You can usually get a smooth running engine by equalizing the air at all RPMs and then injecting enough fuel to burn 100% of the oxygen in the cylinder. The stock closed loop at 14.7 does that in theory. In practice, best power mixture is nearer mid-low13s.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Wideband O2 Project - 08/06/12 01:37 PM

After my recent Fuel System Failure, I decided to further richen the mixture of my R1150RT from 13.8 (where it had been for several months) to 13.5. 13.8 was good and a bit smoother after the injector cleaning but I wanted to see what 13.5 was like.

I didn't make any quantitative measurements yet but it seems that the engine is smoother and has even a bit more pull than at 13.8.

I don't think I'll go much further than 13.5 because the warm-up fueling has gotten richer through adaptation, but I am testing some other ideas.

Most of the time I've been using a BoosterPlug that I already owned to pre-offset the fuel table to be 6% richer. This meant that the Motronic had to do less work to adapt from its basic setting at 14.7 (which is more like 15.4 on E10), to get to 13.8 and now 13.5.

This weekend, I disconnected the BP, left the LC-1 at 13.5, and reset the Motronic. Then took a couple long rides at various RPMs and loads to help the Motronic re-learn the corrections. Some quick measurements show that it has Adapted. When I have a chance I'll publish a graph or two.

The other thing I'm thinking about is changing my fuel injectors. After having them cleaned and tested. I have the Bosch P/N and believe that these are 325cc per minute injectors. I'm going to try and find some exact replacements that are 360cc. That would be 10% more fuel, 4% for ethanol and 6% for 13.8. The idea is that the Motronic would have to do much less work to rebuild the adaptations after a reset.

Anyone have any thoughts on this bigger injector idea?
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/06/12 01:47 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Most of the time I've been using a BoosterPlug that I already owned to pre-offset the fuel table to be 6% richer. This meant that the Motronic had to do less work to adapt from its basic setting at 14.7 (which is more like 15.4 on E10), to get to 13.8 and now 13.5.


Since you're running open loop, won't the Motronic eventually adapt for the Booster Plug and make it redundant?
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/06/12 01:55 PM

Morning Roger

Are you seeing 100% injector duty cycle at any point now? If so then you might see some gain from larger injectors.

Your other choices are raising the injector supply voltage maybe using a battery direct power relay.

Or adding an adjustable pressure regulator in the fuel return line or even cobbling in a k1200rs (50psi) fuel pressure regulator.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/06/12 03:41 PM

Originally Posted By: TestPilot
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Most of the time I've been using a BoosterPlug that I already owned to pre-offset the fuel table to be 6% richer. This meant that the Motronic had to do less work to adapt from its basic setting at 14.7 (which is more like 15.4 on E10), to get to 13.8 and now 13.5.


Since you're running open loop, won't the Motronic eventually adapt for the Booster Plug and make it redundant?


Thanks for responding.

The simple answer is yes it will adapt it out based on my experience and measurements--although some still disagree.

The more complex answer is that a BoosterPlug can be valuable to what I'm doing. Let me explain.

The basic fuel table in the Motronic is something like a 12 X 12 or 16 X 16 table, the exact number isn't important for this explanation. The adaptation table could be the same size, but it is just as likely that it is smaller, perhaps 4 X 6 or smaller, using calculated estimates for areas where the Motronic cannot make measurements with the O2 sensor.

In my case running E10 fuel (4%), and targeting 13.8:1 (6% below 14.7:1) I would ideally like every cell of the table richer by 10%. By using a BoosterPlug, dropping the IAT sensor 20C, I've in effect richened the 12 X 12 table 6%. This means the Motronic doesn't have to Adapt the entire 10%, just the last 4%. And the BP effects every cell, not just the cells in the Adaptation table.

This may seem hypothetical, but I've measured it and it's not. It takes much longer to get a fully adapted 13.8:1 when I don't start with the BP installed, several additional rides. When I dropped to 13.5:1 which is 12% below the 12 X 12 fuel table plus E10 it was a couple long rides before the bike felt its best in all gears at all RPMs.

So to get a 10% shift to every cell in the 12 X 12 table, I'm considering 10% higher flow rate (360cc injectors) or adding my stock IAT in series with the BP. I like the injector idea better because it's hard to measure everything the Motronic might do with a 30C air temp shift.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/06/12 03:46 PM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider
Morning Roger

Are you seeing 100% injector duty cycle at any point now? If so then you might see some gain from larger injectors.

Your other choices are raising the injector supply voltage maybe using a battery direct power relay.

Or adding an adjustable pressure regulator in the fuel return line or even cobbling in a k1200rs (50psi) fuel pressure regulator.


Hi DR,

Not seeing 100% duty cycle yet but per my Adaptation tables above, I'd like to bring Open Loop fueling closer to Closed Loop fueling so the adaptation range is smaller.

The idea of the bigger injectors is 10% more fuel from the stock fuel table numbers and less adapatation.

A 15% boost in the pressure regulator makes sense, it would create about 8% more fuel. It's just awfully hard to get at. The battery idea sounds a little harder to implement.
RB
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/06/12 06:46 PM

Good morning Roger,
I see this thread has resurrected itself once again lol.. I guess my memory isn't what it once was and this question or assumption was probably addressed before but in case it wasn't my question Is: If one is running always in open loop as i do with the O2 sensor disconnected, then the "learning" ability of the Motronic becomes a non issue, correct?

Thanks Roger, DR, all.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/06/12 08:46 PM

JamesW, Yes, this thread has reared its ugly head because I'm trying another experiment.

Your memory is perfect. Once you disconnect the O2 sensor, the Motronic will never change its Adaptive Values. They remain either what they are, or if you reset the Motronic, all multipliers become 100% (1).

That said, your bike will never again correct for low/high fuel pressure, a partly clogged fuel or air filter, or any other wear items (e.g. Carbon build up in the cylinders). It remains up to you to be aware that something has changed. This is why I'm a fan of Closed Loop solutions like the LC-1. RB
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/06/12 10:33 PM

Afternoon Roger,
Yes, that is what i thought and I am perfectly OK with the Motronic not being able to adjust or trim the state of tune to compensate for lack of preventive maintenance. Kind of becomes like my '81 R100RT which to me is a really big plus. Thanks smile
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/07/12 12:14 PM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider
...

Or adding an adjustable pressure regulator in the fuel return line or even cobbling in a k1200rs (50psi) fuel pressure regulator.


Good Morning DR,
Finding a replacement 360-ish cc injector doesn't seem as easy as I thought.

Do I have to lift the tail to get a 3.5 bar k1100rs regulator into the r1150rt?
RB
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/07/12 02:08 PM

Morning Roger

Yes, no, sort of!

You need to lift the rear enough to get the lower air box out. That isn't as easy as it sounds.

On installing the K-RS regulator you m-i-g-h-t be able to get that in by just loosening the air box & moving it around in place as I "believe" the stock K-RS plastic injector lines won't work without cutting so maybe with cut lines you can wiggle it in (probably won't get the stock one out without cutting the lines).

Have you thought about trying an adjustable pressure regulator in the fuel return line. If you jack the pressure up post stock regulator that will drive the drive the injector pressure up to that same pressure.

If you find new higher output injectors make sure the resistance is close to what you have now (not all injectors use the same resistance as some are quick rise that use a different ( 2 stage) power supply and/or different drivers in the fueling computer.

Added: To find the flow difference between the old (original) & newer (higher) pressure-- find the square root of of the new pressure divided by the old pressure, then multiply the result by the cc's of the injectors at their old pressure.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/07/12 03:39 PM

Hi DR, and thanks again.

I think the adjustable regulator in the return line is the way to go--maybe hard to get he K-RS in, and injectors have so many variables (flow, resistance, height, etc.). I've got some QDs that I could use for temporary insertion to try this out.

Using your formula, 53 to 55 PSI would get me right where I want to be. A bit more than the 3.5 bar of the K-RS.
RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/09/12 12:57 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
... I decided to further richen the mixture of my R1150RT from 13.8 (where it had been for several months) to 13.5. 13.8 was good and a bit smoother after the injector cleaning but I wanted to see what 13.5 was like. ... Most of the time I've been using a BoosterPlug that I already owned to pre-offset the fuel table to be 6% richer. This meant that the Motronic had to do less work to adapt from its basic setting at 14.7 (which is more like 15.4 on E10), to get to 13.8 and now 13.5. ... This weekend, I disconnected the BP, left the LC-1 at 13.5, and reset the Motronic. ... When I have a chance I'll publish a graph or two. ...

Here is a graph that I plotted a few days ago after fully reseting my Motronic, settting the LC-1 to 13.5. It took several rides at many RPMs, gears and TPS positions to relearn the Adaptation Values. Here's the plot, made after a warm restart, meaning that the bike was at temperature and was back in Closed Loop quickly.



What you can see is that for the first 12 seconds (until the 2:27 mark) the bike is Open Loop. In that period there is the After Start Enrichment and Warm-up Enrichment--the up-slope that levels at 13.2. Then at 2:27 it snaps into Closed Loop at 13.5.

What is noteworthy about this plot is that the entire curve has been shifted down by 12% or said another way, the Motronic has added 12% more fuel to both Open Loop and Closed Loop--4% more fuel because I run E10 and 8% more because the LC-1 is programmed to 13.5:1.

If the Closed Loop learning had not been applied to Open Loop (and you can see where Open Loop starts after a Motronic reset in plots from earlier in this long thread, here), The Open Loop phase would have started about 8% higher at 13:1 and the pre-closed-loop plateau would be at about 14.3:1, then it would have snapped down to 13.5 for the Closed Loop phase.

For me, this pretty fully settles the question of Adaptation and whether the Motronic MA 2.4 has that ability or not. Sometime when I get a chance I'll also measure the WOT AFR to confirm Adaptation there as well, but as an Anti-Knock measure, it's just as important to have Adapted there so I don't expect any surprises.

RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/13/12 02:06 PM

In the prior post I showed that the Motronic had Adapted Open Loop fueling, without a BoosterPlug or any other modifications, to the 13.5:1 AFR that the LC-1 Wideband O2 replacement is set to.

Because the move from 14.7 plus the leanness of E10 requires the Motronic to add 14% to the stock fuel tables to reach 13.5, and because adaptation is deliberately a slow process, it took several rides over several hours for the Motronic to dial itself in.

Next I wanted to see how quickly it would Adapt if I shifted the IAT sensor by 30C, an 11% increase in fueling, such that the Motronic only had to move the last 3% (14% - 11%).

I bought a few EV1 connectors and wired them in series so that the BoosterPlug output had the stock IAT added to it. I then checked with the GS-911, the series pair did shift them temperature -30C. Next the Motronic was reset and I went out for a test ride. (LC-1 still set to 13.5.)

The result was that the bike needed little adaptation to get Open and Closed Loop fueling in sync. This produced the smoothest engine performance in all the testing I've done, and kept the point at which I've got strong roll-on throttle at about 2600 rpm.

My next test will be to remove the BoosterPlug, run with only the stock IAT and boost the fuel pressure to 50-55 psi using an external fuel pressure regulator from Aeromotive, installed in the return line to the tank. I will select and measure a pressure that boosts the fuelIng by about 12% and test ride to confirm similar results to the 30C temperature shift.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/26/12 03:59 AM

Today I got around to boosting the fuel pressure to match my Wideband O2 setting of 13.8:1. I used an Aeromotive 13301 (picture below) and increased the fuel pressure from 43.5 (3 bar) stock to about 52 psi. I'll post a photo of the install later.

Bottom line: My R1150RT is running its strongest and smoothest yet. The pull from 2,000 RPM on up in 4th gear is terrific. Fifth and Sixth gears are similarly strong. The bike is stock except for the Wideband O2 and the increased fuel pressure.

Here's why I have decided to boost the fuel pressure. First, I believe that BMW has done a good job designing the basic fuel map for the 1150 and I don't want to lose their design knowledge. Look at the fuel map for a Ducati that I linked from Brad the Bike boy's site. This is not the same map as an R1150RT but it can illustrate some points.

You can see that it has 16 RPM columns across the bottom and 16 throttle angles up the side. This table holds 256 values that specify how long, in thousandths of a second, to turn on the injectors for certain RPM and throttle positions. These values are only valid for gasoline without ethanol, and for one air temperature, one barometric pressure and for 43.5 psi fuel pressure. The R1150 has sensors for actual air temp., barometric pressure and battery voltage. Then it uses the O2 sensor in Closed Loop to determine the actual fuel pulse needed to correct for againg and component tolerance and E10 fuel. It compares the actual pulse calculated by Closed Loop to the fuel table and comes up with a correction factor. BMW calls these correction factors: Adaptation values. From all the reading I've done there is probably no better than a 4 X 4 table of Adaptation values, maybe fewer. And these values change slowly. And while you're waiting for the slow change your bike doesn't run it's best.

The numbers in the table have been designed for a Closed Loop mixture of 14.7:1. When I fill up with E10 fuel, it would be better if every number in the table were 4% larger since ethanol is a leaner fuel than gasoline. Moving the Closed loop to 13.8 means the numbers should all be 6% higher. So 6% for my AFR change and 4% for ethanol means I would like every number in the table to be 10% larger.

It's not really possible for us to go in and change the numbers in the table to make them 10% bigger. But you can boost fuel pressure by about 20%, and the injectors then squirt 10% more fuel using the stock map numbers. This means the fuel table now matches my wideband O2 setting of 13.8:1. And that means the Motronic doesn't have to work hard to Adapt the two to match.

The fuel pressure regulator has done away with the need for a BoosterPlug to richen the Fuel Map (by lowering the temperature the Motronic sees and I'm running without one.

I'll add some adaptation tables in the next post.

I've only had one day of running but the combo of wideband and add-on fuel pressure regulator look like a winner.
RB






Posted By: legarem

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/26/12 12:38 PM

Great Roger

It is a tempting mod if it is easy to use this device without too much fuel tube alterations.

Could you give us the mpg your doing with this mod ?

Thanks
Posted By: legarem

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/26/12 12:49 PM

It would be great if you could also try it in open mode with the BP connected.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/26/12 01:19 PM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Great Roger

It is a tempting mod if it is easy to use this device without too much fuel tube alterations.

Could you give us the mpg your doing with this mod ?

Thanks

Mileage at 13.8:1 with BoosterPlug was about 50 highway cruise and 43 mpg (US) combined. I'll be checking the mileage but I don't expect it to be much different maybe a couple miles per gallon.

Originally Posted By: legarem
It would be great if you could also try it in open mode with the BP connected.

From earlier in this thread, here is the 1150 twin spark, on E10 fuel, with and without the BP in Open Loop. http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=777434#Post777434
Posted By: legarem

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/26/12 04:55 PM

Open loop with BP and with fuel pressure boosted ?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/26/12 07:56 PM

There's really no point in a BP when you boost the fuel pressure. They do the same things in different ways. Whatever additional richness you want from the BP, just dial it in as added pressure.

A BP and 52 psi would add 16% to Open Loop fueling, much more than I was looking for.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/27/12 12:09 PM

I mentioned a couple posts ago that I would show where I've temporarily fit the Aeromotive 13301 Fuel Pressure Regulator (those of you who are more natural mechanics, try not to cringe at the tie-wraps). In the photo below you can see it in position below the right-hand throttle body intake-tube (where many have installed an external fuel filter).

The Aeromotive 13301 has four inputs (three of which are plugged) and a return. I've attached 18" lengths of fuel line hose with QDs on each end of the hose. This has allowed me to snap it in series with the return line from the R1150's fuel distributor, returning to the tank. The input of the 13301 is QDed to the fuel distributor and the output of the 13301 is QDed to the tank return line. The excess hose is looped around, staying clear of the moving parts of the throttle body.

The experiments have gone very well. The 52 psi setting adds almost 10% to every fuel pulse (that's 4% for E10 fuel and 6% for my Wideband O2 shift to 13.8:1). It does it reliably, allows me to remove the BoosterPlug so the Motronic knows the actual intake temperature and without waiting for the Motronic to go through a lengthy Adaptation Cycle (more in a coming post).

Because I have the Wideband O2 installed and can connect an AFR gauge at any time, I could confirm that 52 psi brought Open Loop fueling to about 13.8:1 on my motorcyle--an unexpected advantage of using the Innovate Motorsports LC-1. If I were to go leaner or richer with the Wideband O2, I will change the fuel pressure up or down as needed so that Adapation is nominally ZERO.

As for a final home I'm planning to get some proper clamps and make it look like the external fuel filter installation (or if I can find a spot under the tank, perhaps there. When I do that the hoses will be shortened and the extra pair of QDs will be removed in favor of Oetiker clamps.

Any suggestions on how or where to locate the 13301 would be welcomed.


Posted By: mneblett

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/27/12 02:48 PM

To be clear: Is it correct that this approach still requires the LC-1 to spoof the engine computer to get to the 13.8:1 AF ratio? In other words, no Booster Plug, yes LC-1, yes fuel pressure regulator?

BTW - thanks again for your continued investigations -- this appears to be the "cleanest" set-up so far. I'm about to rebuild my 95K '04 RT-P, so this could not be any more timely for me!
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/27/12 05:56 PM

Good questions.

Before answering, and I'm sure you know this, I can only answer this question in the context of a stock motorcycle--stock intake, stock exhaust, stock Coding Plug, no other fuel injection changes. A bike should be well tuned, have good coils, good compression, good fuel hoses and pump and no defects.

With that proviso:

1) Closed Loop operation brings many benefits that have been discussed throughout the thread. The Motronic fuel tables are designed for an AFR of 14.7:1 but the Motronic algorithms are designed to converge around ANY transition point of the O2 sensor. The stock sensor transitions from 200 mV to 800 mV at an air-fuel ratio of 14.7:1. The LC-1 can be programmed to make that transition at ANY air-fuel ratio. Therefore to keep Closed Loop but move to another AFR you need something like the LC-1. A point I will make is that this is in no way "spoofing" the Motronic--it giving it a different switching point and working within it's design parameters.

A side benefit to the LC-1 is that you can always read your motorcycle's AFR. I have found this to be a very helpful diagnostic tool.

2. Since the stock fuel map is set for 14.7:1 at cruise, whether you shift the map using a fuel pressure regulator or an IAT shifting device is mostly a matter of choice. The closer your fuel table is to the O2 switch point, the smoother your engine runs while you wait for the Motronic to create its Adaptation Values.

Running the leaner E10 fuel, the Motronic has to adapt 10% to get from 14.7 (where it is starting) to 13.8. A BoosterPlug shifts things 6%, a fuel pressure regulator can shift things 10%.

Another example though would go like this, you're running gasoline with no Ethanol and moving from 14.7 to 14.1 (4% richer, it runs nicely there too). For this, you need only a 4% move.

3. Lastly, there is the Open Loop option. You lose the regulating benefits of Closed Loop. If you run gasoline, without ethanol, a BoosterPlug will get you about 6% richer, good enough for some.

If you run fuel with ethanol and add a BoosterPlug you only end up 2% richer than 14.7. I doubt you would notice the difference.

So running E10 and looking for a richer mixture Open Loop, I would go the fuel pressure route.

The problem with all the Open Loop options is that you have no way for sure to know what AFR you've ended up at. And like running a Techlusion, you have to use the "butt dyno". method.

My favorite for E10 Land:
LC-1 and Fuel Pressure boost to 52 psi

My favorite for Gasoline Land
LC-1 and a BoosterPlug because the BP is easier to install.

A compromise for E10 Land
LC-1 and BoosterPlug

This is probably a longer answer than you hoped for but there are several things to consider.

RB
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/27/12 08:37 PM

Top of the afternoon to you Roger,
Thing I am having trouble with is this: You have an LC-1 installed with associated wideband O2 sensor. With this combo you can select an A/F ratio of say..13.8/1 which will be the A/F ratio when the Motronic goes into closed loop, all well and good. Now you have increased the fuel pressure to the injectors which will result in a richer mixture both in open and closed loop. Seems to me that the Motronic will simply overcome the extra fuel added by pressure by shortening the on time of the injectors when in closed loop thus returning the A/F ratio to 13.8/1 so not much is accomplished when in closed loop over just running with the LC-1. I can see where the extra pressure will richen things up when running in open loop but I can't see how this would benefit actual performance over the Booster Plug and adjusting the TPS to .40 volts at idle. Am I coprrect in assuming that you are increasing pressure only to richen things up further when in open loop? You know I honestly can't tell much if any difference in performance between E10 and non-ethanol which I use most of the time mainly because my motorcycles are not ridden in winter and the corrosive effects of ethanol I can live without. Even use non-ethanol in my lawn mower (Honda). rofl Just got back from a couple day ride where I used whatever gas was available and did not notice a decrease in performance or any surging. Was on my R1100RSL for this ride. Oh, I should also mention again that I have the O2 sensors disconnected thus am always in open loop.

As a side note: I might just part with my '04RT as I seldom ride it after finding the '94RSL. The RSL is really growing on me. I like the light feel and superb handling in the twisties.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/27/12 08:38 PM

Hi Roger

For testing purpose, here is an idea.

if we know how many millivolts the O2 sensor sends to the Motronic to get a air/fuel ratio of 13.8, Could it be a good idea to build a precise regulator to feed the Motronic O2 inlet to the required voltage to get a 13.8 AFR ?
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/27/12 10:51 PM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Hi Roger

For testing purpose, here is an idea.

if we know how many millivolts the O2 sensor sends to the Motronic to get a air/fuel ratio of 13.8, Could it be a good idea to build a precise regulator to feed the Motronic O2 inlet to the required voltage to get a 13.8 AFR ?



That won't work. Feeding the ECU a constant voltage from the O2 sensor means the ECU will thing the AFR is correct no matter what it really is.
Posted By: smiller

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/27/12 11:20 PM

Originally Posted By: TestPilot
That won't work. Feeding the ECU a constant voltage from the O2 sensor means the ECU will thing the AFR is correct no matter what it really is.

Since a constant voltage is illegal the ECU wouldn't think the AFR is correct, rather it would think that the O2 sensor is faulty and set a fault code and stay in open loop.

But either way, no, it wouldn't work. You maybe could build a circuit that spoofed the ECU by mimicking the correct O2 duty cycle.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/28/12 03:05 AM

Originally Posted By: JamesW
Top of the afternoon to you Roger,
Thing I am having trouble with is this: You have an LC-1 installed with associated wideband O2 sensor. With this combo you can select an A/F ratio of say..13.8/1 which will be the A/F ratio when the Motronic goes into closed loop, all well and good. Now you have increased the fuel pressure to the injectors which will result in a richer mixture both in open and closed loop. Seems to me that the Motronic will simply overcome the extra fuel added by pressure by shortening the on time of the injectors when in closed loop thus returning the A/F ratio to 13.8/1 so not much is accomplished when in closed loop over just running with the LC-1. I can see where the extra pressure will richen things up when running in open loop but I can't see how this would benefit actual performance over the Booster Plug and adjusting the TPS to .40 volts at idle. Am I coprrect in assuming that you are increasing pressure only to richen things up further when in open loop? You know I honestly can't tell much if any difference in performance between E10 and non-ethanol which I use most of the time mainly because my motorcycles are not ridden in winter and the corrosive effects of ethanol I can live without. Even use non-ethanol in my lawn mower (Honda). rofl Just got back from a couple day ride where I used whatever gas was available and did not notice a decrease in performance or any surging. Was on my R1100RSL for this ride. Oh, I should also mention again that I have the O2 sensors disconnected thus am always in open loop.

As a side note: I might just part with my '04RT as I seldom ride it after finding the '94RSL. The RSL is really growing on me. I like the light feel and superb handling in the twisties.


The easiest way to think of this is that the Motronic requires the least Adapttion when the switch point of the O2 sensor 13.8:1 and the fuel maps (factory set to 14.7 at cruise) are the same. By boosting the fuel pressure I've made the times in the stock fuel map produce fueling like they had been designed for 13.8.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/28/12 03:12 AM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Hi Roger

For testing purpose, here is an idea.

if we know how many millivolts the O2 sensor sends to the Motronic to get a air/fuel ratio of 13.8, Could it be a good idea to build a precise regulator to feed the Motronic O2 inlet to the required voltage to get a 13.8 AFR ?



It would be great if it worked that way but the only thing the Motronic tries to figure out from the O2 sensor is whether the mixture is richer or leaner than the switch point of the O2 sensor. To change that switch point you need a different O2 sensor, one that switches at other than stock 14.7:1.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/28/12 03:17 AM

Originally Posted By: smiller
Originally Posted By: TestPilot
That won't work. Feeding the ECU a constant voltage from the O2 sensor means the ECU will thing the AFR is correct no matter what it really is.

Since a constant voltage is illegal the ECU wouldn't think the AFR is correct, rather it would think that the O2 sensor is faulty and set a fault code and stay in open loop.

But either way, no, it wouldn't work. You maybe could build a circuit that spoofed the ECU by mimicking the correct O2 duty cycle.


That's right, a constant voltage looks like an error. Based on how the Motronic uses the O2 sensor, it can't be spoofed into a different target AFR. You really need an O2 sensor with a different switch point.

Nightrider.com has a patent on something that shifts the stock O2 sensors on Harleys but it won't work on a Beemer.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/28/12 09:42 PM

Dirtrider asked me the other day to take a test ride with fuel pressure set to 52 psi, Motronic reset and in Open Loop mode (Wideband O2 sensor unplugged). I got out yesterday and made the run.

My report is simple, the bike runs great--smooth, good power, very responsive to throttle from 2000 RPM or so on up, even in 4th gear. A lot like the Closed Loop test rides at 52 psi and Wideband O2 set to 13.8:1. It's not really a surprise to me that it ran well in Open Loop. But I want to point out one thing: because I had the Wideband O2 installed, I knew that my setting of the fuel pressure was producing the enrichment I was looking for. Without the Wideband O2, you can crank up the fuel pressure, but you can't say for sure where you are with the enrichment.

If you go back earlier in this thread to here: Open vs Closed Loop, notice how much flatter the Closed Loop curve looks and how much tighter the histogram distribution of AFRs is in the smaller plots.

The same thing happened yesterday when I rode at 52 psi, reset Motronic, Open Loop. The range of AFRs, rather than being tightly centered on 13.8:1 where mostly around 14.3:1 and 13.3:1 (the two horizontal dashed lines in the plot below). My educated guess is that this is how the Motronic tries keep the Catalytic converter running even if the O2 sensor is dead. Normally in Closed Loop, with a stock sensor, the Motronic runs fueling a few percent above and below 14.7:1. (Snooze alert: The reason for going to the lean side of 14.7 is to allow Oxygen to recharge the Cerium in the three way converter.) So now, Open Loop the Motronic makes big moves in the fueling, still hoping to create a lean-of-14.7/rich-of-14.7 scenario. This way too rich/way to lean is a sort of limp-home-mode. (It's noteworthy that this will be how many PowerCommander and Techlusion curves would look if anyone plotted them.) I think it is very likely that this causes more fuel consumption than the Closed Loop case.

So here is the Open Loop 52 psi plot with all its "wildness".




My favorite configuration remains:
LC-1 set to 13.8:1 with Fuel Pressure boosted to 52 psi (for E10 fuel).
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/29/12 12:28 AM

Roger,

With your LC-1 setup, do you command a particular AFR or a particular lambda? Put another way, do you adjust the AFR for the fuel you burn (pure gas vs. E10), or do you simply command a lambda value and let the AFR take care of itself?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/29/12 01:29 AM

Originally Posted By: TestPilot
Roger,

With your LC-1 setup, do you command a particular AFR or a particular lambda? Put another way, do you adjust the AFR for the fuel you burn (pure gas vs. E10), or do you simply command a lambda value and let the AFR take care of itself?


Karl,
That's a very good question. I should mention that my answer will sound like double talk for those not conversant in stoichiometric ratios and Lambda.

The LC-1 is an oxygen measuring device and you can optionally program in AFR or Lambda and you can tell the LC-1 what the stoichoimetric ratio of your fuel is. I write my reports in AFR for these threads and normalize them to gasoline at 14.7:1 (as you know, E10 has a stoichiometric ratio of 14.13:1). However, on the LC-1, I actually program in Lambda and have it set to switch at Lambda = 0.94. When I say I've got the AFR set to 13.8:1 I'm really saying that I'm running 6% richer than stoic.

A key thing I've measured is that the Motronic MA 2.4 with Pink Coding Plug has fuel map time values which correspond to Lambda = 1 for gasoline (in the cruising part of the map). If you put E10 in your tank, the pulses are only long enough to produce Lambda = 1.04, fairly lean. And it also requires the addition of 10% more fuel to get from 1.04 down to 0.94. That's a big adaptive move for the Motronic, hence the boosted fuel pressure to minimize the amount of adaptation required.

The other thing I just realized yesterday, as I mentioned above, is that the Motronic MA 2.4 no-O2-sensor limp-home-mode is to vary the AFR widely to try and keep the Catalytic Converter, converting.

RB
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/29/12 03:54 AM

Roger, if in open loop with the O2 disconnected to maintain open loop why then do I not feel the motor responding to a varying A/F ratio? As you know I am always running with the O2 sensor disconnected and all I get (seat of pants) is super smooth operation and good gas mileage. Now, if I remove the CCP I get what is usually referred to as a "limp home" mode of operation with very rich running evidenced by much back firing. With the O2 disconnected I thought the Motronic would simply look at the various sensor inputs and maintain a constant A/F ratio based on input from the TPS sensor, IAT sensor, elevation sensor, oil temp sensor. At least this is the impression I get strictly based on how the bike runs and feels.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/29/12 06:57 AM

JamesW,
Which of your two motorcycles are you referring to the 1100 or the 1150? And is th IAT sensor modified?
RB
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/29/12 03:25 PM

Hi Roger,
Both MC's operate in open loop with O2 sensor disconnected. The '04RT has a modified AIT sensor the '94RSL has stock AIT sensor. Both MC's have the TPS sensor adjusted to .4 volts. The RSL has no code plug and has a 1K CO potentiometer installed adjusted for best idle. The '04RT has a yellow CCP installed as it definitely likes this config over a pink CCP. Also, the '04RT has had the cat converter removed from the stock exhaust system. I would not remove the cat again as about all it accomplishes is increasing the noise level which can be annoying at times. The cat converter does not diminish performance in any way as it is totally non-restrictive. I removed it because at the time I thought it maybe tended to heat up the trans. Kind of doubt that happens as I give BMW engineering more credit than that.

That's about it.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/29/12 04:45 PM

When working on Earle's MC in Driggs, ID to smooth out the motor and eliminate surging I finally adjusted the TPS while running the engine at 2K RPM then shut down and checked the TPS voltage and found it to be .410 volts. His motorcycle has a booster plug which made no discern able difference at all in actual observed performance. His O2 sensor is disconnected. I left Earle with a very smooth running MC and the thing that made the big improvement was the adjust to the TPS.

When I returned home I set the TPS on both my 1100 and 1150 to .4 volt. There is no doubt in my mind that this adjustment to the TPS has the desired effect of richening the AF mixture sufficiently to produce good smooth performance in open loop. After making this adjustment to my "94RSL I found I had to re-adjust the CO POT to slightly lean the mixture.

Conclusion: I think it possible to correct lean burn surging on these oilheads by making only a few minor adjustments and modifications. The main adjustment is to the TPS and major mod is disconnect O2 sensor and experiment with different CCP configs. I question the need for a modification to the AIT sensor. I also believe any spark plug with the same electrode config be it Autolite or NGK or whatever will work the same to improve combustion efficiency. Just not a lot of rocket science here.

Now, all that said there is no doubt that one can achieve great results by going the LC-1 wideband O2 sensor route as well. I don't know if modifications to increase fuel injector pressure is really necessary from a purely practical standpoint but it is certainly an interesting experimemnt.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/29/12 05:13 PM

Afternoon James

On the 1100 a slight TPS adjustment can improve fueling a bit.

On the 1150 with the Ma 2.4 system the TPS is a learnable TPS system so the Motronic doesn't use the TPS voltage as set but instead uses the low & high threshold as the absolutes. Bet if you put a GS-911 on that 1150 you will find the TPS voltage as seen by the Motronic the same as it was before your adjustment after a bit of riding.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/29/12 07:40 PM

Hi DR,
Yes, that would be right on the 1150. I had to remove F5 and re-program the upper and lower limits of the TPS. That said it would seem to me that you would still get the same richening effect as on the 1100 or at least it certainly appeared that way when I fired it up and went for a ride. The 1150 idle is smooth as can be and there is plenty of low end snort with no trace of surging. I don't think the 2.2 Motronic must be reset after TPS adjustment or put another way it doesn't learn but just looks at new TPS setting and responds accordingly. Don't have a GS911, to expensive for my blood and yet I didn't bat an eye yesterday when I forked over $129 for a fifth of Crown Royal ER, go figure.

Oops, you say "after a bit of riding", interesting. Why would this phenomena occur after removing F5 and setting the limits. Also, I thought this learning ability was disabled if one disconnects the O2 sensor. Am I missing something here?
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/29/12 08:25 PM

Afternoon James

When you re-program (teach) the TPS you are teaching the Motronic the High & Low limits of the TPS movement. So (within reason) the Motronic uses the lowest limit as the initial & the highest as the high limit. Unlike the 1100 Ma 2.2 the Motronic doesn't directly use the TPS output voltage but uses the voltage CHANGE from low threshold to high threshold to figure throttle plate position.

When I spoke of riding it for a while in the above post that was in case you didn't do the TPS re-learn. Somehow they eventually seem to figure out the highest & lowest & learn from that.

What you did when you removed #5 fuse is you allowed the Motronic to lose any of it's stored adaptives. That usually makes them run better for a while & seeing as you are not running the o2 sensor I doubt it re-leaned any new adaptives.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/29/12 10:39 PM

OK DR, thanx for clarification.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/30/12 04:26 AM

A couple posts ago I said I would explain the connection between Closed Loop, Adaptation Values and Fuel Pressure increase.

There is no easy way to think of or explain the full operation of the Motronic. That is especially true when you get into one of the Motronic MA 2.4 strongest abilities: Value Adaptation.

Assuming you maintain Closed Loop operation by keeping a valid O2 sensor in the system, there are many examples in this thread which show the following:

1.) If you leave the stock O2 sensor (programmed by physics to an AFR of Lambda = 1 which is 14.7:1 for gasoline) through the process of Adaptation the Motronic will, over time, create Adaptation Values which eliminate the affect of fuel pressure changes, input air temperature changes, etc. In other words it reverts to the AFR dictated by the O2 sensor--including during Open Loop operation by applying the learned adaptation values as corrections.

2.) If you put in an O2 sensor that shifts Lambda (in my case programmably to Lambda = 0.94 which is 13.8:1 for gasoline) you don't require a change to air temperature or fuel pressure. But a pressure increase can still have value as you will see.

The reason for the behaviors in 1.) and 2.) are because the Motronic can use its O2 sensor to learn in Closed Loop corrections to the Open Loop Fuel Map. For example, the Fuel Map value for 3500 RPM and 6 degrees on the TPS might be 3.5 milliseconds. In Closed Loop, the Motronic and O2 sensor might "see" that it actually takes 3.675 milliseconds. If that actual value is the case over the long term, the motronic might start with a 1% Adaptation Value, that creeps its way to a full 5% over time. This is a simple picture of how Adaptation Values get learned. (When you pull Fuse 5 or a battery lead they get erased.)

In case 2.) the Motronic must create Adaptation Values like the ones below (I can't find the R1150 Bosch/BMW's adaptation table but the table illustrates the point). Because the stock Fuel Map values in the Motronic equate to lambda = 1 for gasoline but Lambda = 1.04 for E10 fuel and because I've programmed lambda to 0.94, the Adaption Values inside my Motronic will be about +10%. These values will be in something like the 4 X 4 matrix at the top of the table below.

A few things about Adaptation values: they bridge the gap between the stock Fuel Map and reality as defined by the O2 sensor; it is hard to drive in Closed Loop in some of the areas of the adaptation map, e.g. high manifold pressure or high RPM; and these values can take hours of driving to build up.

So the reason to boost the fuel pressure or move the IAT sensor colder, is to bring the stock Fuel Map closer to the final AFR so that the Adaptation Values can be small. One last note, the Fuel Map might be a 16 X 16 table where the Adaptation Map might only be 4 X 4, much coarser. So all things considered there is real value to getting the Fuel Map shifted close to the final values.

An adjustable fuel pressure regulator does a great job of invisibly aligning the Fuel Map and a Wideband O2 sensor, and does a great job of taking care of the extra fuel needed for E10.

Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/30/12 11:15 AM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
A few things about Adaptation values: they bridge the gap between the stock Fuel Map and reality as defined by the O2 sensor; it is hard to drive in Closed Loop in some of the areas of the adaptation map, e.g. high manifold pressure or high RPM; and these values can take hours of driving to build up.


Actually, closed loop operation, and therefore adaptation, may only occur in a small portion of the total map. Those areas you describe as "hard to drive in Closed Loop in" may be areas where closed loop operation never occurs by design.

For example, look at Brad Black's excellent article on open and closed loop fuel injection at Brad the Bike Boy. About half way down he presents a Ducati 916 fuel map which shows that closed loop operation only occurs in about 30% of the total map. In the other 70% of the map (high rpm or large throttle opening) only open loop operation occurs. Without the ability to reprogram the map, your air temperature and fuel pressure adjustments would be the only way to change the fueling from stock in these areas.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/30/12 01:09 PM

Yes, good points, let me amplify some.

Many adaptation strategies that I've read through, find a way to make measurements in the Closed Loop region which can cover larger or smaller parts of the fuel make, and then apply those learned factors to parts of the map that don't go closed loop--high RPMs, wide throttle openings. If your ECU algorithm learned that you needed 7% more fuel in most cells (say you were running E10 fuel and had injectors/pressure a few percent low) it would certainly be beneficial to apply that increased fuel at WOT. Looking at the adaptation chart (repeated below) you can see that for RPMs above 2200 and manifold pressure above 77 kPA (about 3/4 throttle opening) they continue to use the same factors.

I just looked through some data files I have and there are points above 5000 RPM that show Closed Loop. I don't know where the top is but that would be roughly 100 miles per hour in 6th gear!

Moving from the theory to test runs, I've run at Lambda = 0.96 (13.8:1 AFR gasoline) using 4 scenarios:

1) No BoosterPlug or FP increase
2) BoosterPlug (20C shift, 6% more fuel)
3) BoosterPlug in series with IAT sensor (30C shift, 10% more fuel)
4) Fuel Pressure at 52 PSI (aboute 10% more fuel)

It took hours of driving for case 1) to feel really good at all speeds and gears. Case 2) seemed pretty good right away but improved with driving (shown in some earlier posts in this thread, here), and cases 3) and 4) seemed really strong as soon as I drove off. So in practice the feeling of the motorcyle was as the theory would have predicted. Cases 3) and 4) idled well immediately (as you would expect) cases 1) and 2) idled well after the first test ride. The thing I don't like about 3) is that you don't know what else changes (if anything) when you signal air temperature 30C low.

Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/30/12 04:42 PM

Roger,

I would be very surprised if adaptation values are extrapolated into regions where only open loop operation occurs. There is no feedback if an error is made.

To what bike does the long term fuel trim table in your last post refer? Most BMWs use N-alpha control strategies, not MAP.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/30/12 05:22 PM

This is all most interesting bu for me the bottom line is to just KISS (keep it simple stupid) and disconnect the O2 sensor and operate in constant open loop. Oh, and don't forget to perform good regular preventive maintenance as in air filter change, spark plugs, oil changes.....then just ride. smile
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/30/12 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By: JamesW
This is all most interesting bu for me the bottom line is to just KISS (keep it simple stupid) and disconnect the O2 sensor and operate in constant open loop. Oh, and don't forget to perform good regular preventive maintenance as in air filter change, spark plugs, oil changes.....then just ride. smile


Of course the very simplest thing to do is leave one's bike in totally stock condition and tune it up by the book. So I don't think we're really talking about what's simplest, at least what I've been trying to find is what makes the 1150s run their very best, in harmony with the Motronic and with the least change. That goal is achieved simply with the replacement of the stock O2 sensor, with a Wideband sensor system like the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 ($145 at Amazon).

Beyond that, you can choose to speed and smooth the Adaptation Process with the addition of a BoosterPlug or increased fuel pressure.

Once the LC-1 is added, you have a full-time AFR monitoring system which can quickly lead to diagnosis of a range of problems.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/30/12 06:58 PM

Originally Posted By: TestPilot
Roger,

I would be very surprised if adaptation values are extrapolated into regions where only open loop operation occurs. There is no feedback if an error is made.

To what bike does the long term fuel trim table in your last post refer? Most BMWs use N-alpha control strategies, not MAP.


Karl,
Most of my information has come from the measurements and data that I've taken, explained by follow-up research.

The basic data that shows the Closed Loop adaptation process applied to Open Loop fueling is scattered through this now-long thread. This post is one where you can clearly see the entire start-up enrichment, warm-up enrichment, early Open Loop and Closed Loop all shifted. I chose the Adaptation chart a couple posts back only as an illustration of one way Adaptation can get applied. Here is another type of adaptation:


This is interesting because it shows 3 types of Adaptations: a short term fuel trim (Lambdaintegrator) and two long term fuel trims. One long term fuel trim is additive for short injector pulses the other is multiplicative for longer fuel pulses. This is from an early 2000s BMW car, I believe.

The Long Term Fuel trims are most advantageous to areas not covered by Closed Loop operation simply because the areas covered by Closed Loop get frequently adjusted by the short term trims. The two areas that most benefit from Open Loop, Long Term trimming are starting/warm up, and Wide Open Throttle. The target WOT AFR is somewhere around 12.5-12.9; now imagine you ran E10 and had a fuel system that was several percent low on delivery (reasonable assumptions). The AFR could quickly jump to 13.8:1 at WOT, not where the engine designers want it. Use the Long Term trim, scale the fuel up or down, protect the engine.

Here are a couple displays from PowerCommander software which give an idea how much of the Alpha-N table is covered by Closed Loop in their system (the dark areas, quite a lot). I would assume that their selection of Closed Loop areas mimicks BMWs but that is just a guess on my part. As I said earlier I have data showing Closed Loop above 5500 RPM. I can also confirm that at low TPS angles, Closed Loop stops around 3000 RPM (like the PC chart below).




In any event, your contention a couple posts back that fuel pressure increases are a sure way to boost AFR everywhere (provided you also have a Wideband O2 sensor so that it doesn't revert) is sound based on the actual data I've measured.

One last point, I began this effort about 9 months ago with the intention of smoothing out a minor roughness that I attributed to leanness in the neighborhood of 4000 RPM. I've ended up with the LC-1 and FPR producing a bike that pulls with gusto from 2000 RPM on up in 4th gear and 2500 RPM on up in 5th and 6th gears. This is a tremendous driveablility improvement.
Roger
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/30/12 08:40 PM

Roger,

The Power Commander displays are very interesting. If you're right, BMW's system operates closed loop in a larger area than I expected.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/30/12 09:10 PM

Originally Posted By: TestPilot
Roger,

The Power Commander displays are very interesting. If you're right, BMW's system operates closed loop in a larger area than I expected.


Although I think that I've pretty well wrapped up with this project, I may attach the GS-911 and take a ride in every gear from 1000 RPM to redline and see which areas have closed loop coverage. As I mentioned I sifted through the data this afternoon and found Closed Loop flags in the data up to 5500 RPM. When I do I'll makes some notes and post them.

Since the GS-911 doesn't report real time data for the 1100 series, when someone eventually attaches an LC-1 to an 1100, it will be interesting to see the AFR data. Until then ...
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 02:06 AM

Evening roger,
I would be interested in seeing the results of a dyno run on your '04RT. I would also like very much to take a ride on your mc. Maybe we could meet half way like say.... Minot, ND or some other forsaken place. You choose.

I guess the final outcome is one doesn't really need a modified AIT and the LC-1 is the recommended way to go at least on an 1150? Or should one consider a modified AIT to cover the open loop bases as well?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 02:47 AM

Originally Posted By: JamesW
Evening roger,
I would be interested in seeing the results of a dyno run on your '04RT. I would also like very much to take a ride on your mc. Maybe we could meet half way like say.... Minot, ND or some other forsaken place. You choose.

I guess the final outcome is one doesn't really need a modified AIT and the LC-1 is the recommended way to go at least on an 1150? Or should one consider a modified AIT to cover the open loop bases as well?


A before and after Brake Torque plot (as opposed to a usual inertial run) would be interesting. There's no doubt it's got more get up and go between 2000 and 3500 RPM at the usual TPS angles as opposed to a WOT run. I don't think there is any reason I would have more maximum horsepower, just more get up and go in the driving range.

My thoughts on best configurations are here .
RB
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 03:28 AM

Dyno testing is the gold standard (or maybe the only standard).

Ben
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 10:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
Dyno testing is the gold standard (or maybe the only standard).

Ben


If all you're after is more power.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 11:12 AM

Here is a neat small fuel pressure regulator that I came across after I bought mine. Higher price that others but small, with a good range of pressure variation.
RB

Varireg

Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 12:20 PM

Originally Posted By: TestPilot
Originally Posted By: Peter Parts
Dyno testing is the gold standard (or maybe the only standard).

Ben


If all you're after is more power.


Good dyno testing - which can include using an A/F probe - tells you lots of stuff about the character of your engine when interpreted by capable people.

Further, you are mistaken about "power," The analytic parameter to eyeball is torque at different rpm's certainly not just peak power and in comparison to the "before" condition. For example, low-end torque is what we are hearing about in this thread now.

Sure, I can joke that I "feel" all the great power improvements that occur every time I change the tranny oil*. Instead of "feel," many of us have worked through several cycles of modify-and-check dyno testing in enhancing our engines. As many tears as cheers in the process. And dyno testing quite literally measures just where the rubber meets the road.

The alternative is the "butt-dyno". For sure, the dyno charts change the whole basis of claims from subjective judgment (very subjective, however well intentioned) to objective measurement.

There are bike dyno testers in every region and the price is right. You download the "reader" software and away you go with the data.... if you have the plain courage to subject your claims to testing.

Ben
*the improvements only happen when I buy really expensive tranny oil but I am certain they would also happen TWICE as big if I distilled an additive myself from organic coconut juice, locally sourced.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 01:27 PM

Morning Ben

I have to disagree with you on using a dyno for complete motorcycle tuning. It is obvious that you haven't spent any time on a chassis dyno doing motorcycle tuning.

First off, you can't just say DYNO as there are different types of dynos used for motorcycle tuning work.

The more common inertia types (like the common Dyno Jet) that most motorcycle shops have are a great tuning aid for roll-on power tuning, WOT acceleration tuning, & other acceleration type tuning, or even fuel/air ratios under different forms of acceleration. They are sadly lacking for steady state fuel/air ratio work, diagnosing steady throttle anything, & steady state engine surging or fueling tuning. They do have a good base program for adjusting for ambient temp, humidity, atmospheric pressure, etc. so most data is repeatable day to day & week to week even with changing atmospheric conditions. This is my Dyno of choice for power tuning & roll-on acceleration tuning. They just plain suck when trying to do any steady state tuning or constant throttle work. I have experience with this type of Dyno as one of my friends used to have one in his shop.

The other type is the a pump or electric current (basically a brake dyno). These do lend themselves to more steady state engine loading but this type is very difficult to set up for motorcycle usage. Such as how much load to dial in for a specific motorcycle at a specific road speed in each gear. I basically have no experience with this type of dyno for motorcycle usage other than some of the difficulties I have seen with experienced users trying to get back to back credible data from a motorcycle. (why most motorcycle shops have inertia type dynos).


For (one off) tuning for normal riding other than WOT accelerations & heavy throttle roll-ons you can't beat real world road data with the bike being ridden at actual road load type situations as long as you have proper instrumentation in place to measure & data log what is happening engine & fueling system wise.

Even a butt Dyno isn't too bad in some situations as that is what makes the rider happy not some random numbers or an adjusted for??? plot on a nice shinny graph sheet.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 04:04 PM

Hello D.R.,
I do agree with the "butt" dyno method for steady state running evaluation for sure. This method is also most cost effective, imo. Bottom (no pun intended) line is this method is for me the end all test.

I took my '94RSL to Boise for 3 pulls on the dyno for $20 as I wanted to find out what my A/F ratio is after modifications and what the torque/HP curve looked like as well. It was $20 well spent. That plus a few miles of good old butt testing to see if there was any surging and there isn't.

I think it would be interesting to see how Roger's machine performs on a dyno with different a/f settings using the LC-1. This kind of tuning would no doubt cost a bit more than $20 but would be interesting. Again, imo. It would just be a bit more data to add to the mix he has already collected.

I would be interested in the LC-1 especially for the reduced price but what bothers me is how would the motorcycle idle and perform when it comes to smoothness while in open loop and not looking at the wideband sensor? Seems this is where a modified AIT or readjusted TPS might come into play.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 05:44 PM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Great Roger

It is a tempting mod if it is easy to use this device without too much fuel tube alterations.

Could you give us the mpg your doing with this mod ?

Thanks


Legarem,
Trying to clean up the loose ends on this thread, I did take a trip today and carefully filled the tank in the same place at the same station to the same level, twice. The trip was about half local roads with occasional traffic lights and stop/go and half highway, posted speeds 45 - 50 miles/hr, I was about 10% over the speed limit, with a couple stretches of 70 mph.

My odometer said the trip was 71.9 miles. The second fill-up was 1.496 gallons. That calculates to about 48 mpg. I don't know what the "before" would be, I'm not trying to indicate that this is good or bad. For me this type of mileage is fine.

RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: JamesW
...

I think it would be interesting to see how Roger's machine performs on a dyno with different a/f settings using the LC-1. This kind of tuning would no doubt cost a bit more than $20 but would be interesting. Again, imo. It would just be a bit more data to add to the mix he has already collected.

I would be interested in the LC-1 especially for the reduced price but what bothers me is how would the motorcycle idle and perform when it comes to smoothness while in open loop and not looking at the wideband sensor? Seems this is where a modified AIT or readjusted TPS might come into play.


The area that I wanted to address with this project was 0 to 20 degrees TPS and 1500 to 4500 RPM since that's where most of my driving/cruising is done (but like everyone else I enjoy letting it rip in the turns on occasion and running WOT for stretches on the highway too). I've often wondered how torque would look in that range as a function of AFR. Between 13.5 and 14.1 I couldn't tell much difference, it just runs well. At 15.6:1 (I've tried that) it runs with some strain. For me, I can't see the bang-for-the buck of Dyno studies although I've called a couple guys.

As far as Idling, Warm-Up and WOT the bike is very smooth and responsive. I've wondered what it would feel like if I dropped to 13.2:1 but that will await someone else to take this further.

The next thing I'd like to do, as TestPilot suggested, is to map the RPMs where the Motronic uses Closed Loop. I think for a few weeks though, I'm just going to ride.

Oh, and if it's of any interest, the last time the valves were adjusted was about a year ago and I balanced the TBs at the start of the project. Plugs and air filter were done then too. I've just let them be since then.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 07:11 PM

Hello again Roger,
Not a bad idea to just ride especially as the days are getting shorter.

When I had the dyno test done on my 1100 I had the tester hold RPM steady at about 4K RPM and we observed a steady 13.8 A/F ratio with nice torque and it held steady RPM with no throttle change. Good enough for me. I was going to take the 1150 in for a test run but the cost is now $70 for 3 pulls and extra for any tuning so decided seat of the pants is good enough for me.

Must admit I am tempted to spring for an LC-1 out of curiosity but then I would be tempted to buy a GS911 and on and on. Not worth it too me especially since I am thinking of selling the 1150 as I much prefer riding the '94RSL. I just love this bike! The leaned forward riding position is good for my back and I discovered that if I lower the wind screen so that the wind blast hits my entire helmet my body is in equilibrium which eliminates the strain on my arms provided I can ride above 60 mph. Only down side is the bugs but oh well, it is a motorcycle after all. wave
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 07:44 PM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider
Morning Ben
snip It is obvious that you haven't spent any time on a chassis dyno doing motorcycle tuning.
snip


I've spent hundreds of dollars and dozens of hours working with dyno testing on two boxer engines - both types of dyno too. And many runs with a Tesla g-meter.

Your gratuitous insult does not enhance the credibility of your post.

Ben
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 07:53 PM

I also have an interest in audio design. Funny, there are the "golden ear" crowd who believe their judgments are free of bias and that they ears are super-sensitive beyond the limits of meters and microphones and there are the "measurement" crowd with calibrated microphones and trick software.

I am truly surprised to hear people on this board defending subjective testing and pooh-poohing measurements.

Are they the "golden butt" crowd who believe they are free of subjective bias?

Show us the dyno results.

Ben
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 10:11 PM

Afternoon Peter,
I don't think D.R. meant to offend. He is a valuable resource for informed information here and I for one appreciate and respect his input on matters oilhead. Same goes for Roger.
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 08/31/12 11:45 PM

Originally Posted By: JamesW
Afternoon Peter,
I don't think D.R. meant to offend. He is a valuable resource for informed information here and I for one appreciate and respect his input on matters oilhead. Same goes for Roger.


1. I fully agree the DR is a valuable resource here and doubly-so for more experienced tinkerers (ahem, ahem) who rely on his advanced knowledge than for others.... as I have said many times.

2. It should be "obvious" that I do have experience with dynos even from a fast peek at my previous post as do many others at this forum and that the remark really was insulting and uncalled-for, although I am certain it was never meant to be so.

And like the old joke line, "I've been insulted better"... no problem. Let's get on with seeing some dyno testing of impressive claims about air temp foolers and trick wide-band O2 sensors mods.

And lots more posts from DR.

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 09/01/12 09:14 AM

Hmmm ... Seems like this Wideband O2 thread has been hijacked by the Dyno Corps. Rather than name-calling and credential-posturing here, I've started you a new thread. I look forward to new insights there.

Everything You Wanted to Know About Dynos but Were Afraid to Ask

Let's keep this thread for Wideband O2 retrofitting and get things back to a respectful dialog.

RB
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 09/01/12 01:13 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Hmmm ... Seems like this Wideband O2 thread has been hijacked by the Dyno Corps. Rather than name-calling and credential-posturing here, I've started you a new thread. I look forward to new insights there.

Everything You Wanted to Know About Dynos but Were Afraid to Ask

Let's keep this thread for Wideband O2 retrofitting and get things back to a respectful dialog.

RB


NO hijack what so ever. Just a request to see some documentation for your progress. Fair enough?

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 09/01/12 01:28 PM

I apologize to everyone that for some reason a fair amount of personal disrespect has crept into this thread.

I hope that it's very clear to everyone else that I've shared copious amounts (most would say too much wink ) information in the 245 posts that form this thread.

For anyone who wishes the time and expense of dyno testing, you are welcome to do that at your own.

As for my thoughts on the value, I am happy to participate here: Dyno Thread.
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 09/01/12 02:16 PM

Accusing someone of malfeasance who just asks for data is disrespectful; creating a false dust-up where none existed before is questionable behavior.

Posting dyno charts on a bike website is appropriate, routine, sensible... and expected.

I have been following this very interesting thread. Great data. Very valuable to see the results of using the wide-band A/F tool providing fresh information. Not least in value are Roger's excellent discussion and analysis posts. We need more of the same.

But now we need to see performance results from a dyno documenting progress.

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 09/01/12 02:24 PM

So it would be great if you installed one and did the Dyno testing!
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 09/10/12 01:59 PM

I've now logged about 500 miles on my pressure regulator and LC-1 combo (no BoosterPlug or other change), all tuned for a gasoline AFR of 13.8:1 using E10 fuel. The mileage includes almost 100 miles between 70 and 85 mph. Lambda on the LC-1 is now set to 0.94 and the fuel pressure regulator (FPR) is set to 52 PSI, correcting Open Loop for both the change in Lambda and the leanness of E10 fuel. As setup now I would say that the Boxer engine is as responsive, smooth and powerful (for the bike's weight) as any engine I've owned. It's interesting to duck down below the windscreen at 75 in 6th gear, these 1150 engines at 3700 RPM really purr.

On the last series of Open Loop tests that I made, I attempted to set things up in the garage while on a conference call. Cradling the phone on my shoulder, taking the bike off the center stand and dodging some stuff piled on the floor in front of the bike led to a slow motion tip-over and a couple of deep scratches on the windscreen as it hit an adjacent bicycle. I've bought a Micro-Mesh kit and some coarser (320 & 600) sandpaper. That seems to be going pretty well. Scratches are gone, polishing it up. wink

When I have time, I'll take a look at the speeds and RPMs where the Motronic is Closed Loop.

RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 09/18/12 03:13 AM

I got out today with the GS-911 attached and a PC in the Top Case for a 100 mph run up a section of posted 50 mph highway that runs through a flat swamp nearby. I didn't get past fifth gear before running out of highway. I continue to operate at 52 psi fuel pressure and a mixture of 13.8:1 no BoosterPlug or any other modification to my '04 RT.

The idea was to see when and where the Motronic runs the Closed Loop program. I've got some charts coming but here are a few observations. Keep in mind that the max 95HP is at 7250 RPM.

--Closed Loop was operational at 100 mph (The engine seemed very smooth here)

--Closed Loop was operational in 2nd, 3rd, 4th gears at nearly 6500 RPM.

--Closed Loop was operational at 48 degrees throttle (80 degrees is wide open) going 100 mph

--In 3rd gear, while accelerating to 70 mph the Motronic was Closed Loop a lot of the time. Same in 4th gear to 90 mph.

--In 5th gear, WOT Motronic stayed mostly Open Loop from 65 mph to 100 mph. But as soon as I "relaxed" the throttle to about 3/4 open at 6400 RPM, Closed Loop kicked in. Amazing!

Given the amount of time and operating areas where the Motronic will enforce lean Closed Loop, I think it gets easier to see the advantages of mixture richening by using a Wideband O2 to shift Lambda from 1 to something less--0.94 in my case.

--At 6000 RPM & WOT the injector was on for 7.2 milliseconds. One revolution of the engine only takes 10 milliseconds at that RPM. At 7250 RPM (max horsepower) each revolution is only 8.3 mS. The injectors would be open 90% of the time!

(The air temperature was 90F today; had it been 20F the 7.2 mS injector pulse would lengthen to 8.1 mS. Were I to boost my fuel output using a -20C air-temp shifter on a 20F day, that pulse would lengthen to almost 8.6 mS. More than 100% on-time! Fuel pressure is a better method for boosting injector output (compared to IAT shifting or PCs or Techs) since it doesn't require the injector pulse to be lengthened.)

That's the raw data. I'll try and post a chart tomorrow after I've thought about it further.
RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 09/18/12 12:46 PM

I thought some might like to see the chart but I don't have time to provide the detailed annotation yet. Briefly, the Green line has two states: Closed Loop program running is the HIGH state but forget the label on the right side of the graph, it's just used to shift the 1/0 to the top of the chart. The red and blue curves use the left axis labels.

There are 6 RPM peaks. They are gears: 1st/2nd, 2nd, 3rd/4th/5th. I'll not them on the photo later when I get time for further detail but for now the comments in the prior post apply to this chart.

In first gear, Closed Loop seems to stop at 4000 RPM. In Neutral (not on the chart) Closed Loop ends around 3000 RPM, or maybe lower.

As I mentioned in the prior post, not that in 5th gear, 6350 RPM and 45+ degrees of throttle, the Motronic goes Close Loop!

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 09/30/12 04:20 PM

How the Motronic handles spark advance has been something of interest. When the data in the last post was collected, I also collected ignition timing data, plotted below, for reference and for those who are interested. This data is for the Motronic MA 2.4, Pink Coding Plug.

Unlike fueling which can be modified externally, spark advance is under the control of the Motronic's internal program so can't be modified without an ECU chip replacement.

The charts below show spark advance compared to RPM and to throttle angle. In the RPM chart you can see that advance is increased with RPM, reaching a maximum of about 43 degrees above 4000 RPM.

In the TPS chart though you can see that the maximum advance is only for throttle angles below 18 degrees (80 degrees is WOT), and is then reduced for wider throttle angles. From 50 degrees to wide open throttle the advance is limited to 20 degrees.

The other thing worth noting is that while the spark is advanced with RPM up to certain throttle angles, there are a lot of points scattered well off the curve. This shows that there are other factors that the Motronic uses in its timing calculations.

Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/01/12 01:22 AM

Interesting plot.

I believe the plots would be quite orderly if your software took the first chart and plotted separate lines for a few TPS angle on it. Can also be experimentally by doing runs at a fixed TPS angle as the engine speeds up.

I've been wondering for a long time if the AIT influences spark timing? Never got a good answer. Not that the other sensors might not also have an influence in a perfect world.

The BBP chip has a choice of step-up mod levels with, I assume, hotter and hotter spark advance.

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/01/12 05:14 PM

Is it just me or does anyone else see the possibility of getting more power at using 5/8 throttle if RPMs are low? There is 10 degrees more advance there.
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/02/12 03:26 AM

A scatterplot doesn't show it, but those curves (as I described) should be quite orderly (but not monotonic). If BMW left 10 degrees sitting around, I assume they felt they had good reason to fuss (like detonation).

After doing carb switcheroos on two BMW models (with good results), I believe it is very hard to modify fueling and spark without the resources a manufacturer has available. So an LC-1 maybe be a fun research tool, I doubt a Power Commander is likely to beat BMW's tuning.

Ben
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/02/12 04:21 AM

Hello Ben,
Say what you will but I for one am completely convinced these oilheads will perform far better with a richer air fuel ratio than what they come with from the factory. The factory guys are trying to reduce emissions and in so doing tradeoffs are made with performance. The LC-1 is a favorite tool of the automotive tuner because it just works and is hardly a toy. In my case I chose not to use an LC-1 to obtain a richer mixture mainly because I don't own a PC and the LC-1 software just won't run on a Mac and I am one of those stubborn Mac users that would rather return to an all analog world than own a PC. All this said, I think the LC-1 is probably the best way to richen the mixture because it allows the Motronic to do its thing as it normally would in closed and open loop. Best way to go, imo. Oh, and the data gathering capability of the LC-1 is super and takes much of the guess work and seat of the pants feel out of the equation.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/02/12 11:08 AM

Hi JamesW,
Yup, I think it's earlier in this thread but here is one of the most well known curves is internal combustion engine tuning. An aircraft readily and simply shows this effect. Climb to cruising altitude, lean your mixture to stoichiometric (or peak EGT), record speed. Richen mixture to Best Powe, fly faster (due to increased HP), and run with cooler exhaust temperature. The LC-1 is a mixture controller, directly using BMWs well designed fueling tables.

Further, it turns out that every engine has a leanness it doesn't really seem to like. For our Oilheads that often seems to be stoic. Run richer, run smoother.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/02/12 12:36 PM

Just a couple more points for those interested. The LC-1 let's you slide the vertical line labeled Stoic to the left or to the right--richer or leaner. What it does together with the Motronic is really that simple.

Slide the Stoic line right (which I experimented with and showed earlier in the thread) and the Boxer engine starts to stumble.

Slide the Stoic line left and the engine is smoother and stronger, especially cruising at speeds between 35 and 100 mph (closed loop range). It only takes a few percent. In addition you end up cruising in a higher gear a lot of the time because of the additional power and smoothness. Although I've shown a lot of data in this thread, this mod is not rocket science, the boxer runs better with a bit more closed loop/cruise fuel.

One thing you don't get though is more horsepower at WOT. In that condition BMW has already set the mixture to Best Power. You might if you advanced timing but I leave that to others who are interested.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/06/12 03:22 PM

Here is the final mounting of the Aeromotive 13301 adjustable fuel pressure regulator that I used to richen Open Loop fueling 10% (20% increase in pressure to 53.5 psi).

It is mounted to the frame using an included mounting bracket, on the right hand frame near the alternator. (I misread the torque value and broke the bolt which led to having to drill it and back it out.)

The mounting bracket is soft steel and was easy to twist with a vise and adjustable wrench. You can see the fuel line routing in the photo below. After taking the photo I realized that I could attach the battery vent hose (no longer needed with the Odyssey battery) to the regulator atmospheric vent.

Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/06/12 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Hi JamesW,
Yup, I think it's earlier in this thread but here is one of the most well known curves is internal combustion engine tuning. An aircraft readily and simply shows this effect. Climb to cruising altitude, lean your mixture to stoichiometric (or peak EGT), record speed. Richen mixture to Best Powe, fly faster (due to increased HP), and run with cooler exhaust temperature. The LC-1 is a mixture controller, directly using BMWs well designed fueling tables.

Further, it turns out that every engine has a leanness it doesn't really seem to like. For our Oilheads that often seems to be stoic. Run richer, run smoother.



I wish people would stop talking about stoich as some kind of important benchmark. First of all, there are various criteria of performance and each has its own different best A/F and even that criterion and that A/F changes with RPM.

Whatever chemical ideal in the lab is stoich, it is different in engines and different in each engine.

The BMW boxers have never been great breathers and so stoic A/F has never been of much significance.

Narrow band O2 sensors have traditionally come in only one form and that is stoic rated. If you know feedback theory, you know a sharp sensor of the sort used on the Oilheads funnels you in a narrow direction which is not easily manipulated by electronics smarts.

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/09/12 08:05 PM

In the spirit of a picture is worth a thousand words, I've added a block diagram of the Motronic MA 2.4. This is my interpretation from research, the data I've taken throughout this thread and some deduction. I believe it to be a good-fit, functional representation of how the Motronic does it's job as a fueling and spark computer. As I find errors, I'll correct the diagram. (i.e. I don't know if there is a cold oil temperature spark timing adjustment.)

Next I plan to post other diagrams showing how the Wideband O2 mods of this thread affect the system, as well as diagrams of how the PowerCommander and Techlusion interact with the Motronic MA 2.4. Eventually I'll add all four diagrams with a PDF link.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/10/12 02:11 PM

Before going to the diagrams of the Wideband modication, here is a view of the differences between the Open Loop and Closed Loop fueling.

Open Loop fueling starts with the TPS and HES signals and proceeds through adjustments for air temperature, barometric pressure, etc., proceeding to a fuel pulse being injected into the engine (ignoring the Adapt box for a minute).

Closed Loop fueling is a software program that begins with an Open Loop fuel pulse but then quickly uses measured Oxygen from the exhaust (the O2 sensor) to determine whether the mixture is richer or leaner than the target set by the O2 Sensor (switch). With a bit of trial and error, it locks into a range of fuel pulses that alternate between being a bit rich and a bit lean. The Closed Loop program is an aggressive "enforcer" of the mixture specifed by the O2 sensor. In a stock system that mixture is a lean 14.7:1 (for gasoline).

The Closed Loop program also has another activity which is to compare (the Compare box) the Closed Loop result with the Open Loop calculation. Over time, if these fuel pulses are different, the Closed Loop program "teaches" the Open Loop program some adjustments (the Adapt box). This means the Open Loop program gets corrections that can take into account: fuel type (e.g. E10 or gasoline), fuel pressure, air filter restrictions, fuel injector contamination, and throttle body, valve & cylinder accumulations. A weakness of the 1150 Motronic is that it treats both cylinders equally, which means we have to manually balance (left and right cylinders) the air (TB and valves) and fuel (injector cleaning and matching).

The diagram below can give an idea of which engine modifications will have a long-term effect on engine performance and which will be "learned out" by the Motronic's Closed Loop program.

My objective with the Wideband O2 project was to leave the many functions of the Motronic intact even while richening the overall mixture.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/11/12 09:18 PM

Before posting the next few diagrams, I spotted a function that I'd left off the Motronic that is relevant to any fueling modifications that disable the Motronic's Closed Loop operation (1150 Motronic MA 2.4). If you look back at the previous two charts, they've been amended to add a "Limp" function to the final fueling decisions.

The Limp box is now the final step in Open Loop fueling, just after Adapt values have been applied. The Limp function as I have measured it (plot below but no BMW documentation that I can find) expands the variation of Open Loop fueling to a 10% range. That is twice the amount of mixture variation that occurs in Closed Loop. The full post was here, Open Loop fueling variation. Although there is speculation that Limp Home is a rich mixture, the measurements say that it is 5% richer than normal and 5% leaner than normal.

What that means on an 1150 is that if you disconnect the O2 sensor and run a Powercommander, Techlusion, 3.5 Bar pressure regulator or BoosterPlug as an Open Loop fueling enhancement you can count on the Motronic to vary the fueling in a 10% range, like the plot below.

The next post will be a block diagram of the Wideband O2 system.

Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/12/12 01:47 AM

OK, but in the real world if you run open loop with a 3.5 BAR fuel pressure regulator with a Booster Plug and get from 43 to 49 mpg with absolutely no surging or backfiring just nothing but smooth stable performance what, in practical terms, is gained from allowing closed loop operation? Of course you eliminate the ability of the Motronic to learn from open loop operation and pass on to closed loop but what's the harm? Especially if you get great performance.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/12/12 12:22 PM

Most of what I've written about is from measuring the 1150 motor and Motronic, so I'd say that's real world.

You've gotten a good result and when I rode Open Loop I thought the result was good too. Going further, many Techlustion and Powercommander implementations leave the Motronic in Open Loop. That said, there is a difference and I wanted to document what that was.

With a programmable Closed Loop implementation, you can set a mixture (e.g. 13.5 or 13.8 or 14.1) and know what it will be. With an Open Loop solution, you estimate how much fuel you'll be adding and how the result turns out. Using an Open Loop implementation, the Motronic will assume that it has to take measures to deal with a non-functioning O2 sensor and move the mixture in a 10% range around your target. For the same feel, I believe that will take more fuel.

My point is not that it is a bad thing to do, only to describe the differences of operation.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/12/12 12:49 PM

Here is the block diagram showing how I've installed the Innovate Motorsports LC-1. The stock Narrowband O2 sensor has been removed, and it its place the LC-1 is installed. With months of measurements under my belt, I'm now confident that the Motronic functions the same with this sensor as it does with the stock sensor, it just programs and enforces a richer mixture.

Looking at the diagram you can also see that I've boosted the fuel pressure. This is an optional enhancement. When you shift the )2 setting from Lambda = 1 (stock) to Lambda = 0.94 as I've done, if you do nothing else the ADAPT box in the diagram will learn over time how much it needs to adjust the fueling to get the L=0.94 result. It takes time to adapt but eventually it does. Every pulse it sends out becomes several percent longer.

The other option is to give the Motronic a headstart. One way is to add something like a BoosterPlug. It tells the Motronic the air is 20C colder and that results in a 6% richer mixture. The Motronic then has less adapting to do and gets to the final result faster.

The option I choose was to boost the fuel pressure by an amount that was equal to the shift in Lambda (plus an amount for E10 fuel) so that the Motronic would have almost no Adaptation work. (Fuel Pressure balances Lambda shift.) That means two practical things: as soon as you fire up the Motronic it's in the right ballpark; and every cell of the fueling table has been corrected (every pulse is affected by the increased fuel pressure), versus the coarser correction of the Adaptation process.

It seems like I've made a lot of measurements and tests to arrive at a simple solution for mixture enrichening but a side benefit is that a lot was learned about how the Motronic does its job and I've got a good confidence that the LC-1 implementation is compatible and that the Motronic is fully functional and operating as intended by the designers, just richer.

Tomorrow I'll add a block diagram for a Powercommander and Techlusion implementation.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/12/12 01:51 PM

Hi Roger, e-mailed the LC-1 folks to see if they can pre-program an LC-1 to 13.5:1 AF ratio as this might be a good option for us non-PC users.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/12/12 01:57 PM

JamesW, If you look through LC-1 Wideband Installation R1150, there are a few settings that need to be programmed. I could probably arrange to program it for you eventually decide to go that route. Let us know if Innovate will do it.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/12/12 02:41 PM

Just heard from Inovate and they won't pre-program.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/16/12 04:44 PM

Another way to add fueling to an 1150 (or 1100) is by using a PowerCommander III, block diagram below. This product includes a Wideband O2 sensor and an Add-On Fuel Table computer. It is a standard product, that can easily be added to an 1100 or 1150. Many believe that it is necessary to "Dyno Tune" the Powercommander after installation, but you could richen the mixture without having to go to that expense.

One reasonable way to use the PC III would be to install it along with its Wideband O2 sensor, use the included software to program the O2 sensor Lambda to 13.8, and fill in the fuel table with 6% everywhere, perhaps tapering off toward the high RPMs and high TPS angles. In this mode it would be similar to the LC-1 and somewhat easier to install.

With the O2 sensor programmed to 13.8, the Powercommander claims to operate its own proprietary Closed Loop program (see the shaded Closed Loop area in the second chart). That said, major parts of the Motronic are disabled when the PC III is installed, particularly the Adaptive ability. Powercommander makes no claim of Closed Loop adaptation within its module. Also, the Limp function of the Motronic is enabled when the O2 sensor input is disconnected. This means the pulse stream going into the PC III will have the 10% variation I wrote about a couple posts back.

The PC III looks pretty straight-forward to install but you do have to disconnect the O2, add two connectors to each injector, and install a piggy-back onto the TPS connector. So I would say it's fairly invasive to the Motronic system--if that matters to you. The PC gets its throttle position information from the TPS piggy-back but doesn't seem to have a TPS learn function like the Motronic. The PC III gets its RPM information from the injectors by measuring the frequency of fueling pulses. That works well but during Overrun Fuel Cutoff, the PC III doesn't have an RPM input. I think that might be a nit, but I mention it.

At its list price of $495.95, it's about three times the cost of an LC-1 but it is a Plug and Play solution. In terms of software, it's not clear to me whether the PC III has the logging capability of the LC-1 which I see as an important diagnostic tool. All the AFR charts of this thread have been made using that capability. It does come with a good suite of software for populating and managing the fuel tables should you wish to adjust them.



Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/16/12 06:00 PM

A further note on using the PC III for richening:

I mentioned that a simple way to use the PC III would be to program the Wideband O2 that comes with it to (say) 13.8:1 and fill in the fuel table with 6% (maybe tapering to a lower number at the high RPMs and high TPSs). However, 6% is only the right number if you're running pure gasoline.

Since I haven't seen any documentation on the PC III's Closed Loop capability and haven't measured it; and since the Motronic's Closed Loop ability (and therefore its Adaptation capability) is disabled by a PC III; I believe that the fuel table should have 10% added for motorcycles that run E10 fuel. That would be 4% for E10 and (say) 6% for the richer Lambda setting on the Wideband O2.

The PC III may incorporate Adaptation capability but it may not. Many PC III installations don't seem to have Closed Loop but, from the software I've downloaded at their site, the 1150 has a Closed Loop function.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/17/12 02:23 AM

I looked at the PC and the Techlusion and decided not worth it, to me anyway. I'm happy with my homemade booster plug and increased fuel pressure regulator. Couldn't ask for better performance. Oh, I bought a 3.5 BAR regulator but I think there is also 4 BAR unit that is used on a late model R1200. I'll stick with the 3.5 BAR. Still like the yellow ccp. Also, use an AP3923 primary plug with a one range hotter secondary NGK. Both plugs run dry and slightly dark, just right.
Posted By: smiller

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/17/12 04:40 AM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
The PC gets its throttle position information from the TPS piggy-back but doesn't seem to have a TPS learn function like the Motronic.

Just FWIW the PCIII does indeed have a throttle position learn facility. It is not automatic though and must be activated while you have a laptop connected.


Quote:
Many PC III installations don't seem to have Closed Loop but, from the software I've downloaded at their site, the 1150 has a Closed Loop function.

Their model naming conventions are a little confusing, there is the standard PCIII USB model with no O2 sensor (and thus no closed loop) and the PCIII Wideband (for BMW models) which does have a wideband O2 sensor.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/18/12 08:01 PM

Originally Posted By: smiller
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
The PC gets its throttle position information from the TPS piggy-back but doesn't seem to have a TPS learn function like the Motronic.

Just FWIW the PCIII does indeed have a throttle position learn facility. It is not automatic though and must be activated while you have a laptop connected.


Quote:
Many PC III installations don't seem to have Closed Loop but, from the software I've downloaded at their site, the 1150 has a Closed Loop function.

Their model naming conventions are a little confusing, there is the standard PCIII USB model with no O2 sensor (and thus no closed loop) and the PCIII Wideband (for BMW models) which does have a wideband O2 sensor.


Thank you for the feedback. I went back and reread the PC III manuals and installation instructions and found the Set-Up tool that let's you calibrate the TPS to the PC III, as you said. The installation instructions leave the O2 disconnected so the Closed Loop is function is within the PC III and their documentation doesn't mention long-term Adaptation.
Posted By: smiller

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/18/12 09:19 PM

Yes, the PCIII Wideband model does disable Motronic closed-loop and substitutes its own closed-loop control (as I described earlier in the thread.) The manual isn't very technical (certainly nothing at the low level that we're interested in) and most of what I've learned has come from conversations their tech staff (actually their first-line tech support can't give you much engineering detail but you can get to the right guys if you're patient.) I never asked about whether the PC could maintain fuel trim info but I rather doubt it.

The PCIII is not inexpensive and probably overkill if all you want to do is richen things up a bit at part throttle (which is all the oilheads really need) but once you pony up it does have a lot of nice features if you want to tune the fuel map precisely, or want to have true (plug-and-play) closed loop control. I just don't like the way the Techlusion does things pretty much in the blind, but if you don't mind fiddling with them they seem to do the job.

And BTW, the Power Commander software does more than it seems (by just starting the software on a computer) as additional info appears once the computer is actually connected to the PC, such as real-time readout of A/F ratio, etc. But alas as far as I'm aware there is no logging function.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/18/12 09:26 PM

Originally Posted By: smiller
...I just don't like the way the Techlusion does things pretty much in the blind, but if you don't mind fiddling with them they seem to do the job.


I have the same reaction to the Techlusion product. Here are some notes I prepared that go along with the block diagram.

Another method for richening the mixture is through the use of a Dobeck Engineering product. I'm aware of a couple: one disables Closed Loop (Techlusion) and the other allows Closed Loop in part of the RPM range (Electronic Jet Kit). Both products use the same technical approach of monitoring the injector electrical pulse. By measuring the time between injector pulses and their inection-on-time, the Dobeck technology can approximate the Load and RPM of the motorcycle. Neither product employs a Wideband O2 sensor like the LC-1 or PC III (although a gen 4 version does use a Wideband O2, I don't see it listed for the 1100s or 1150s).

The rider can then add fuel (lengthen the pulses) using three/four rotary dials (or plus/minus buttons) that allow different amounts of fuel to be added in cruise, acceleration or WOT. For me, the challenge of this approach is you can't specify how much fuel to add with a concrete setting (e.g. you can't specify 4% more than Closed Loop), and their is no Closed Loop monitoring of the result of the adjustment. However, with skill, I'm sure it can be made to work--provided that Closed Loop is disabled. With Closed Loop disabled, the fueling additions are made to the Limp Home pulse train with its 10% fueling variation that I showed a few posts back.

Looking at the block diagram below, the Narrowband sensor to the Techlusion but there is no indication in the documentation that suggests the O2 sensor signal is used to calculate the fueling addition:

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 10/20/12 01:13 PM

Below are plots of Motronic Ma 2.4 injection times. The top plot is Injection vs RPM and the bottom is Injection vs TPS. I've added these to the thread as a reference. Looking at them:

1) The injection time increases with increasing throttle opening. So as you want more acceleration, it adds more fuel.

2) The injection time stays fairly constant when compared to RPM. In the crusing range between 2000 and 4000 RPM, injection times are 2 to 3mS (thousandths of a second). This means within that range they are on for somewhere between 6% of the time and 20%.

3) At WOT and 7250 the injectors are on roughly 100% of the time--8.1mS on pulse and 8.2mS time between pulses.

4) There are no Zero pulses (Overrun Fuel Cutoff) below 1800 RPM.

5) There are no Zero pulses above a couple degrees throttle opening. Taking point 4 into account OFC kicks in during deceleration when the throttle is below 2 degrees (idle is 0.32 degrees) and until RPM is below 1800 RPM.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/16/12 01:34 PM

I've been doing some further research on the Powercommander III for Oilheads and now have a much different view of how the PC and Motronic work together. My prior view that the PC didn't drive the Motronic's O2 sensor input was wrong and was due to a lack of documentation. But that said, here is an update for those interested:

I've heard from Dynoject and although I'd like some further clarifications, I don't think I'll hear more. The product was designed nearly 10 years ago and as you would expect the designers have moved on.

" the testing was done so long ago I may not be able to answer your question thoroughly."

The BMW Powercommander III USB Wideband is essentially a Wideband Commander coupled to a Powercommander III USB.

The essence of what I've heard fro Dynojet is:

"The connection to the stock ECU narrow band input is tied to our Wideband sensor. We are able to offset the narrowband signal based on our wideband input."

This is how the Innovate LC-1 works, although the LC-1 is a later, better performing design with data logging capability.

The BMW Powercommander and Motronic runs closed loop and develops Adaptation values everywhere the Motronic would on its own. That's because the Wideband signal, converted to narrowband format, is "Always connected". The shaded area on the PC fuel map (see photos several posts back) is just a guess on PC's part about where the Motronic is in closed loop.

"The highlighted area is what we have interpreted as the closed loop area of the stock ECU."

I have many measurements that show the closed loop area of the Motronic is up to 62.5% throttle and up to 6250 RPM. I think we should expect that it is closed loop everywhere below those numbers.

I did some digging and found letters from Dynoject to Harley forums where there was a clamor for this capability. Here is part of what the design manager wrote:

"Let us start with why the BMW uses a wide band O2 sensor as part of the unit. The bike already has a "closed loop" circuit as part of the OEM injection system. It does not "auto map" the entire rpm/throttle position range of the fuel map. Generally speaking, the closed loop system only adjusts the fuel curve below 40% throttle. Above that the system is "open loop". The new Wide Band BMW unit only controls the stock "closed loop" area. Outside of that the bike is mapped in the normal fashion, on the dyno.

We would actually prefer not to maintain the closed loop section. Due to the design of the OEM injection system it is not possible to bypass it as we do with other models. Closed Loop systems are not the "magic" that most people believe they are. There are a number of problems that keep it from being the best choice for high performance applications."

This all means that the PC III for USB works very differently on an Oilhead than on any other motorcycle most Dyno tuners work on. It also means that the WOT "pulls" aren't likely to provide an optimal tuning since most dyno tuners don't seem to understand the interaction with Closed Loop Adaptation Values. There's no reason that they should be familiar since this product works differently than most every other PC they would work with.

With this information, it is now pretty clear to me how the Powercommander and Motronic work together. My plan is to update the block and show a recommended fuel map for implementation. I am a lot more positive on the Powercommander as a tool now than before. It can be implemented on the majority of BMW Oilheads with NO Dyno tuning.

If anyone reading this would like to loan me a PC for a couple weeks I'd like to run some tests. In the meantime I'm going to try and buy one used. Then later I'll resell it, all set up for installation.
Posted By: smiller

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/17/12 12:03 AM

Roger just want to say thanks for all your research here. Even though there aren't a lot of comments I'm sure there are many who are following this thread with interest and I know your efforts and detailed posts are being greatly appreciated.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/17/12 01:42 AM

+1
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/17/12 04:04 AM

+2
Posted By: Peter Parts

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/17/12 09:17 AM

You say the PC makers argue that for a sporty bike, riding on an open-loop table leads to better performance. I agree with that and agree with Tom Cutter that BMW spent a fortune in testing time to develop a good map.

And the only influence the PC has is by substituting its fudged O2 signal to the Motronic (based on a short-lived and expensive wide-band sensor). This fudged signal can only influence the Motronic's fueling during those periods when the Motronic has chosen to run closed-loop (not over 62% throttle, not just after the throttle has been jiggled, not at very low throttle or idle....).

So why not just disconnect/disable the stock O2 sensor and force the Motronic to be open-loop all the time so you don't need a PC? (Assuming the health of your cat converter, if any, isn't an issue.)

Or just broadly but mildly enrich using a Techlusion or use a simple O2 sensor scaling circuit?

Ben
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/17/12 02:02 PM

I think it's interesting that PowerCommander III for Oilheads includes a Wideband O2 for Closed Loop with the Motronic; and PowerCommander V for the R1200s includes a Wideband sensor for tuning but not for Closed Loop.

The engineers at Dynojet realized that the Motronic doesn't run it's best without an O2 signal and added the Wideband. The reaction of the Harley crowd at the time (2004) was to petition Dynojet to make a Wideband PC III for Harley's. The problem Dynojet was trying to solve is that the Motronic MA 2.4 (and probably 2.2) goes into "limp home mode" (LHM) when deprived of an O2 signal.

Many believe that LHM on the Motronic is richer. What it actually does is vary the mixture about 5% leaner and 5% richer than gasoline 14.7 in an attempt to keep the catalytic converter charged with oxygen. That means the approximate Open Loop fueling swings are 14.0:1 to 15.4:1 while cruising with no O2 connected. If you run E10 fuel with no O2, the mixture varies from about 14.6:1 to 16:1. It's tough to tune in the presence of a 10% swing. So they added a Wideband sensor and allowed the Motronic to run in Closed Loop. And to make it interesting, the only documentation they provide is to say--connect our cable to the O2 input.

BTW, the data I've taken shows Closed Loop in the presence of throttle motion, during acceleration once the throttle movement has slowed, at idle and even cruising at 100 mph. It is Open Loop during warm-up, over 60% throttle (>48 degrees from what I've seen so far) and during large throttle movements.

I'm in the process of updating the Motronic/PC III Wideband block diagram and will have some more comments then.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/17/12 05:22 PM

I think that the 2.2 Motronic simply looks for the presence of a CO potentiometer when it doesn't see an O2 sensor and a cat code plug. Also, I think the 2.2 Motronic has a fueling map (European) that is activated when no code plug is detected. In the case of the 2.4 Motronic if you remove the code plug what you refer to as "limp home mode" is activated and this mode of operation does not produce ideal fueling and is intended as a temporary condition only. Therefore, the 2.4 Motronic must see a code plug or proper fueling will be inhibited. So, I guess what I am saying is I don't think the 2.2 Motronic has a "limp home" mode. Also, when the O2 sensor is disconnected the 2.4 Motronic does not look for the presence of a CO potentiometer but rather remains in open loop with inputs from the other remaining sensors used to determine the fueling mixture. So, the long and short is I think the 2.2 does not have a limp home mode only the 2.4 does and I'm not at all sure why the difference. I also think there may be differences in the 2.2 Motronic beginning with production in 1996. My experience with the 2.2 Motronic is limited to my observations and experiments to my '94 R1100RSL which was produced in 06/93. I operate my '94 R1100 with the code plug jumper removed and a CO Potentiometer (9 turn 1K POT) connected and O2 sensor disconnected basically a European configuration. With this set up I get no surging and a 13.5/1 air/fuel ratio as measured on a dynamometer at Big Twin BMW of Boise, ID.

Early on when my '04RT was less than one year old I tried removing the code plug like so many R1100 owners had done with good results. I quickly replaced the code code plug (pink) as it was obvious removal did not result in improved operation in the '04RT at all! My nose told me that without a code plug the mixture had become extremely rich and over the road operation resulted in very loud periods of backfiring. One short ride was all it took and the code plug was re-inserted posthaste.

In the case of my '04RT with the 2.4 Motronic I performed the Rob Lentini zero-zero adjustment to the throttle bodies as described on the IBMWR web sight just to see what would happen and I am very pleased with the result especially at idle. I have never seen a 2 cylinder motor idle so smoothly. I know the 0/0 procedure is recommended for the R1100 but I thought it should work just as well on an 1150 and in my case it certainly did. I set the TPS at .390 volts. I also constructed my own booster plug (AIT sensor) and installed a later fuel pressure regulator to increase pressure by about 7 or 8 psi. Also, I have disconnected the O2 sensor to avoid closed loop operation. I would install an LC-1 with wideband sensor but my computer is a Mac and is not compatable with the LC-1 otherwise I would be using the LC-1. Oh, I settled on a yellow CCP after experimenting and test riding with the other configurations. Fuel economy varies between 43 and 51 mpg depending on variables like terrane and wind speed/direction.

Long and short is I am very satisfied with both my oilheads as they are configured. I must confess however, that I kind of wish I owned a pc. smile
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/17/12 05:54 PM

Afternoon James

The 1100 (Ma 2.2 system) doesn't look for the CO potentiometer when it doesn't see an O2 sensor present.
The CCP (coding plug) determines IF the Ma 2.2 uses a Co pot to fuel to at idle or not.
Actually it (the Ma 2.2) only uses the Co pot when CCP terminals 30 to 87 are open.
So, no CCP fulfils that open between 30 & 87, as well as the light green CCP (no 30 to 87), & light Brown CCP again no 30 to 87).
I don't know how your 94 Ma 2.2 system fits in here as that has no CCP but has in-harness jumpers.

On the 0=0 for the 1150 MA 2.4 system. --0=0 really does no good on the Ma 2.4 system as the 0=0 is used to skew the air flow through the throttle plates vs TPS voltage seen by the Motronic. Seeing as the Ma 2.4 uses a LEARNING TPS when doing the 0=0 procedure on the MA 2.4 system any gain is negated as soon as the 2.4 re-learns the TPS low & high threshold as the air flow vs voltage skewing is right back to where it was before the 0=0.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/17/12 06:58 PM

Hi D.R.,
Yes, the in cable jumper which I cut produced a yellow code plug configuration according to the factory manual I have for the '94 R1100RS. Maybe I didn't have to actually be concerned with this jumper but the factory manual showed a set up without code plug and the jumper simulates a physical code plug which is missing in the European configuration. I'm fortunate the motorcycle came with the factory manuals or I would have had problems as the schematic in my Haynes manual is very different for the R1100RS. That's what makes me think the 2.2 changed in 1996 and is different from the early version.

The 2.2 Motronic doesn't learn the limit points of the TPS as does the 2.4 but it seems to me the end result is the same in that both Motronics recognize the TPS limits and apply this data in the same fashion. The 2.4 apparently stores these limits in memory and this memory must be cleared in order recognize a new set of limits whereas the 2.2 doesn't have a memory that must be cleared and then new data entered but the end result, after re-entering the new limit data, is the same in both the 2.2 and 2.4 units. Hope I'm making sense here. In other words both Motronics use the same TPS output in the same fashion to perform the same purpose. Therefore, why wouldn't the 0/0 procedure also function the same with both units? Just that one system stores the TPS limits data in memory and the other always looks at the raw data as it comes directly from the TPS. I hear what you are saying but I just can't see it. Nor can I see why the difference between the 2.2 and 2.4 Motronic.

I wish Bosch offered a seminar on Motronic theory of operation because I would pay to attend.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/17/12 07:04 PM

Earlier in this thread I presented an incorrect explanation of how the Power Commander III USB with Wideband O2 operated when integrated with the Motronic MA 2.4. The reason for this error was an omission in the Power Commander installation manual for R1150RT. Here is the correct explanation, please refer to the diagrams at the end of the thread.

The Power Commmander III with Wideband O2 for BMW R1150 and R1100 is actually two different functions in one package. One function is that of the Power Commander III USB an Add-On Fuel matrix of values according to RPM and TPS. The second function is much like that of the Innovate Motorsports LC-1. Rather than recapitulate the Add-On Fuel function you can read about it here: Power Commander III USB .

The second function, Wideband O2, functions just the same as an LC-1 Wideband O2 controller. You can read about that in detail earlier in the thread. In short, you replace the stock Narrowband O2 sensor that has a fixed transition point at 14.7:1 AFR (actually Lambda = 1, meaning that theoretically all the oxygen has been consumed) for a Bosch LSU 4.2 Wideband O2 sensor which has a programmable transition point. By selecting a Lambda value less than 1, the Motronic will automatically richen the mixture in the Closed and in the Open loop fueling calculation. I'll rephrase that: if you drop Lambda to 0.94 the Motronic will run Closed Loop at 13.8:1 which is 6% richer than stock 14.7:1. Then through the magic of the Motronic's Adaptation Values capability it will also add fuel to all Open Loop fueling calculations after a "learning" period.

The "learning" period takes some time and is not quite perfect because you have to drive your motorcycle at steady throttle for enough time in Closed Loop at a range of throttle openings and RPMs for the Motronic to "learn" the full adaptation map. It is likely that there are fewer Adaptation Values than cells in the Base Fueling Table of the Motronic, which means that there is likely a coarser correction. But I've measured it, and Adaptation works effectively, it just takes a while. The bigger the shift in Lambda that you're making, the longer it seems to take to "Adapt".

There is a way around the "learning" time. In short, find a way to either a) add a percentage of time to the pulse coming from the Motronic; or b) increase the fuel pressure so that the pulses coming from the Motronic deliver a percentage more fuel than stock. Since the Innovate Motorsports does not have an Add-On Fuel map I added a Fuel Pressure regulator and boosted the fuel pressure. However, if you use a PC III USB, you can add the fuel through the fuel table function.

Looking at the sample Add-On fuel tables below, if you fill in the fuel matrix with a 6% addition in every cell at 60% throttle and below, and then reduce to 4% more fuel at 80% throttle and 2% fuel at 100% throttle you will have a sound starting point. Note that this approach acknowledges the great work that BMW has done in their design of the Base Fuel Map in the Motronic; it just adds a proportional percentage to account for the amount of richness you want to add. I'm sure this seems like a simplistic use of the Add-On Fuel function of the PC III but it will work and you won't need to add a BoosterPlug or Fuel Pressure regulator.

I'll end with a short comparison of LC-1 and PC III. Both are technically sound methods for controlled richening of the Oilhead's mixture, leading to much better driveability and a bit more power in the mid-band (2000-5000 RPM) which it achieves by moving up the AFR vs Power Curve earlier in the thread. (There will not be an increase in WOT horsepower because the BMW fuel tables are already near Best Power Mixture there.)

Advantages LC-1:
--Lower cost: $170 for the LC-1, $395 for PC III (although I've seen PC III for $285)
--Calibration function for the Wideband O2 sensor
--Datalogging of the realtime stream of O2 readings
--AFR gauge included in purchase price. It is an add-on for the PC III.

Advantages PC III:
--Plug & Play: The PC III has all the connectors you need to plug it in out of the box. For the LC-1 you need to wire your stock O2 sensor connector and also power leads to its cable.
--Built in Add-On fuel capability. If you use the LC-1, you either wait for Adaptation, add a BoosterPlug which shifts fueling a fixed 6% or, as I did, increase the fuel pressure. A good fuel pressure regulator costs around $100.

RB

Notes
1) I am trying to get a PC III w/Wideband but have not run one yet.
2) The fuel table on the PC III allows you to enter percent increase/decrease. Typical injectors have a 1 mS dead (on/off time), I don't know if the dead time is taken into account by the PC III.
3) At 7250 RPM the injectors fire every 8.3 mS. The longest injection pulse that I've seen is 8.2 mS. This points out that you can't add 5% to the longest pulses with making them longer than the frequency of rotation in some cases. (However, the vast majority of the time injection pulses are less than 4 mS.)
4) I don't think there's a problem but I can't tell how the PC III responds to Overrun Fuel Cutoff when no pulses occur (i.e. the PC III isn't getting any engine speed info during that time.)





Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/17/12 07:05 PM

Afternoon James

We are starting to step on Rogers 02 sensor thread here so I will respond to your questions if you start another thread on this.
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/18/12 01:37 AM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
The second function, Wideband O2, functions just the same as an LC-1 Wideband O2 controller. You can read about that in detail earlier in the thread. In short, you replace the stock Narrowband O2 sensor that has a fixed transition point at 14.7:1 AFR (actually Lambda = 1, meaning that theoretically all the oxygen has been consumed) for a Bosch LSU 4.2 Wideband O2 sensor which has a programmable transition point. By selecting a Lambda value less than 1, the Motronic will automatically richen the mixture in the Closed and in the Open loop fueling calculation. I'll rephrase that: if you drop Lambda to 0.94 the Motronic will run Closed Loop at 13.8:1 which is 6% richer than stock 14.7:1. Then through the magic of the Motronic's Adaptation Values capability it will also add fuel to all Open Loop fueling calculations after a "learning" period.


How does the Motronic calculate an adaptation value for an area in the map where closed loop operation never occurs? With no actual data, there is no basis for selecting one value over another. Do you have a reference that explains how this is done?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/18/12 03:34 AM

Originally Posted By: TestPilot
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
The second function, Wideband O2, functions just the same as an LC-1 Wideband O2 controller. You can read about that in detail earlier in the thread. In short, you replace the stock Narrowband O2 sensor that has a fixed transition point at 14.7:1 AFR (actually Lambda = 1, meaning that theoretically all the oxygen has been consumed) for a Bosch LSU 4.2 Wideband O2 sensor which has a programmable transition point. By selecting a Lambda value less than 1, the Motronic will automatically richen the mixture in the Closed and in the Open loop fueling calculation. I'll rephrase that: if you drop Lambda to 0.94 the Motronic will run Closed Loop at 13.8:1 which is 6% richer than stock 14.7:1. Then through the magic of the Motronic's Adaptation Values capability it will also add fuel to all Open Loop fueling calculations after a "learning" period.


How does the Motronic calculate an adaptation value for an area in the map where closed loop operation never occurs? With no actual data, there is no basis for selecting one value over another. Do you have a reference that explains how this is done?


A couple things:

I should have added a comment in the Notes section of that post to the effect that the shaded area of the Map attachment above is only Dynojet's estimate of the Closed Loop area. I have data that shows Closed Loop operation up to about 6500 RPM and up to about 50 degrees of throttle out of 80 which is about 60%.

I have measured Warm-Up, WOT and other Open Loop values as having been Adapted. As far as the algorithm, I don't know it exactly for the motronic but have read descriptions a few places, they're all similar, I'll try and find one for you. The idea is that the Motronic compares it's Closed Loop calculation of injector-pulse-width to its Open Loop calculation. Close Loop operates over a large fraction on the map, at higher RPMs and throttle angles I've read that the usual approach is the extrapolate from the nearest values. So if 50 degrees throttle had a +3% Adaptation it might carry that amount to 60, 70 and 80 degrees, as an example.

The main purpose of Long Term Adaptations is to calculate corrections that take cylinder dynamics, fuel pressure, fuel flow, air flow, fuel ethanol content, etc. into account. One of the big side benefits of having an O2 sensor for controlling mixture for the catalytic converter is that it can create Adaptation Values.

EDIT
If you google Long Term Fuel Trim you can find some other references. Here is an example: Long Term Trim Explanation . There are others. I remember that Bosch/BMW sometimes use percent trims and sometimes use additive/subtractive values depending on RPM. On our Motronic MA I know it occurs and have measured it but I've not found the formula.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/18/12 04:46 AM

Some discussions on fuel trim.

http://www.hdforums.com/forum/sportster-models/823246-very-confused-stage-1-a-3.html

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h44.pdf

http://www.unofficialbmw.com/images/BMW_Adaptation.pdf

Here's an interesting explanation
http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/FAQ/How%20GM%20Electronic%20Fuel%20Injection%20Works.htm
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/18/12 12:02 PM

Roger,

Those are all good references, but they still don't really answer my question. I understand how long term fuel trim is calculated and applied in those regions of the map where closed loop operation takes place. I also understand that LTFT is applied in those regions even when the engine is operating open loop. But none of the references provide any concrete evidence that LTFT is applied in regions where the engine only operates open loop and never uses O2 sensor feedback,
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/18/12 12:35 PM

Originally Posted By: TestPilot
Roger,

Those are all good references, but they still don't really answer my question. I understand how long term fuel trim is calculated and applied in those regions of the map where closed loop operation takes place. I also understand that LTFT is applied in those regions even when the engine is operating open loop. But none of the references provide any concrete evidence that LTFT is applied in regions where the engine only operates open loop and never uses O2 sensor feedback,


Karl,
You'll have to look around some then but you will find it. One of the most valuable places to apply Long term trim is 80 and 100% throttle and systems are never Closed Loop near WOT. If the long term trims weren't applied at WOT you could have a lean mixture due to E10, low fuel pressure or flow, etc. just when you wanted the mixture to be on target.

If you look at the table here you will see examples of the trims that extend up into the WOT range, e.g. 77%+ kPa, 2200+ RPM.

I've measured it on my motorcycle so I know it exists. But it is disappointing how little clear info is out there, BMW/Bosch treat their EFI info like a state secret. If I come across something I'll add it.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/18/12 03:57 PM



If you go to the detailed write up in the middle of this explanation of GM's system you'll see this equation:

BPW = BPC * MAP * T * A/F * VE * BVC * BLM * DFCO * DE * CLT * TBM

And BLM is the long term trim. It is part of the basic Open Loop fuel calculation (including WOT and warm-up)

Later it explains:

"BLOCK LEARN Block Learn is a term that is related to closed loop mode, but continues its influence during all modes."

Granted this is for the GM system but since Bosch is secretive we have to learn about these things other places and confirm the behaviors by measurement.
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/18/12 05:07 PM

While the equation may be used everywhere in the map, not all terms have a non-zero value everywhere. The discussion in the article about BLOCK LEARN states that "Over time, the BLM numbers will settle at a value that gives a 14.7 A/F ratio with no closed loop term correction." To do this, BLOCK LEARN needs to know when an AFR of 14.7 has been reached. The ECU cannot do this in areas of the map that are always open loop, since O2 sensor feedback is not used in these areas.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/18/12 05:22 PM

Right it does that in the Closed Loop area but the applies the "learning" in "all modes", and where it is most import, at WOT. And in any case, I've measured it happening.
Posted By: TestPilot

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/18/12 08:46 PM

With all the variables in the equation, how can you really tell that there is an adaptation at WOT?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/18/12 10:35 PM

Originally Posted By: TestPilot
With all the variables in the equation, how can you really tell that there is an adaptation at WOT?


Good question, and skepticism has been important as I've tried to coax the Motronic into giving up its secrets.

If you were to read some of the other articles on the carprogrammer site and work down to this article, here, you would come to this next part which talks about BLM 15 the WOT BLM.

... Your BLM cell 15 used in WOT was actually learned under a non-WOT condition, not representative of WOT at all. ...

Taking a different tack, let's assume there was no BLM for WOT, and the target afr in the fuel table was 12.8:1. With no long term trim, as soon as you put E10 in the tank, WOT would be 13.3:1. Then say your fuel pressure was 6% on the low side. Now your WOT would be 13.7:1. Then go one more small step and your injectors were on the low side and a bit dirty and were 4% low. Now your WOT afr would be 14.2:1. You see where I'm going. It would be unquestionably bad.

Still, if you were to believe that WOT was not influenced by long term trim then anyone who runs E10 should install a 3.5 Bar fuel pressure regulator, and everyone should clean injectors periodically and check fuel pressure annually. Luckily, because of long term trims which come for free with a learning, closed loop ECU, we don't have to do that.

RB
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/18/12 10:44 PM

Evening Roger

I don't know how the Motronic 2.4 does it but here are the basics on the Delphi system block learn & integrator from about that same era.

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/faq/BLMINT.html
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/19/12 03:07 AM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider
Evening Roger

I don't know how the Motronic 2.4 does it but here are the basics on the Delphi system block learn & integrator from about that same era.

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/faq/BLMINT.html


Thanks DR, for posting this ... again. I now remember that you posted this in a long forgotten thread I started called Long Term Trim ...

I reread it and although not a Motronic, it shows one way that the effect I've measured gets implemented.

I haven't mentioned it yet but lambda-shifting with a Wideband O2 as a strategy produces generally good results. However, it does have a couple problems in concept.

For instance, although cruise AFR seems too lean on the Oilheads (surging, leanness, straining at some RPMs, all due to the needs of the catalytic converter) it could be that WOT and warm-up enrichment is okay. When you lamda-shift, everything gets richer by the percent that you make lambda richer. In my case that's 6%. WOT has moved from roughly 12.8:1 to 12.1:1, and the cold-start enrichment is 6% richer too. During testing I've kept checking WOT and cold start. My bike still runs great but if I made cruise any richer I'd have WOT in the high 11s.

Using the PC III USB you can limit the WOT enrichment as I showed in an earlier table. Interestingly if you left the cells all at 0 on the PC III, then the Motronic would adapt everything up by 6%. By filling in the table as I showed with 6s except at 80 and 100% throttle, the Motronic doesn't have to do much adapting and WOT won't get too rich. Warm-up enrichment will climb though, that's unavoidable.

The warm-up problem could be negated by a second, capacitively coupled IAT sensor or by a switch but there hasn't been a need for that yet.

One other thing, its interesting to watch the AFR on a cold day on cold-start. The mixture looks ver lean for the first 10 seconds due to fuel condensing and not being burn. Then as it warms up, the mixture seems to be getting richer. Not more fuel, just more fuel getting burned in the cylinder and not condensed onto the engine components.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/19/12 12:30 PM

I've been doing some more research on the Power Commander so I'd like to update the Notes section but can't go back to edit it. Here are the notes with updates, 5) and 6):

Notes
1) I am trying to get a PC III w/Wideband but have not run one yet.
2) The fuel table on the PC III allows you to enter percent increase/decrease. Typical injectors have a 1 mS dead (on/off time), I don't know if the dead time is taken into account by the PC III.
3) At 7250 RPM the injectors fire every 8.3 mS. The longest injection pulse that I've seen is 8.2 mS. This points out that you can't add 5% to the longest pulses with making them longer than the frequency of rotation in some cases. (However, the vast majority of the time injection pulses are less than 4 mS.)
4) I don't think there's a problem but I can't tell how the PC III responds to Overrun Fuel Cutoff when no pulses occur (i.e. the PC III isn't getting any engine speed info during that time.)
5) Because the Powercommander gets its +12V from the injectors/fuel pump and since the fuel pump goes off after a couple seconds, Dynojet recommends hitting the starter button before the fuel pump cycles off.
6) The Powercommander may not take injector dead-time into account (seeking clarification from Dynojet. If that is the case, I will update the sample fueling tables. For example, since there is 1 mS of dead-time in a 2mS injector pulse only a +3% is needed to get 6% enrichment.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Wideband O2 Project - 11/19/12 06:33 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt;20075209
FF and MrC, FYI, here are a couple notes I add to the PC implementation:

5) Because the Powercommander gets its +12V from the injectors/fuel pump and since the fuel pump goes off after a couple seconds, Dynojet recommends hitting the starter button before the fuel pump cycles off.
6) The Powercommander DOES take injector dead-time into account.

In my case since I've boosted fuel pressure to shift the tables, the dead-time is automatically taken into account.


I just heard back from Dynojet. They do take dead-time into account within the PC III USB, they said. So no special provisions are needed and the tables would work as posted.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 11/26/12 03:37 PM

With the help of a Mechanical Engineer in Greece who is running Alientech software to build his own fuel and spark tables, here is some spark data for the R1100GS. He and I have been going back and forth on some points and his software seems to misinterpret the axis for throttle/vacuum but it seems to match up with what I've measured.

Below, his table and my measurements.


Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/04/12 02:41 PM

An update and some new info:

Lately I've moved my Lambda setting from 0.94 to 0.92 which is another couple percent richer. I did this because I noticed that just as the bike was finishing warm-up (while riding) I liked the cruise performance just a bit better than once it went Closed Loop. The biggest difference between a minute before to after Closed Loop is a few percent more fuel. I'm not sure just where I'll stop adding fuel.

There are a couple IC engine performance curves I've found that you might find interesting. Although NOT specifically for an Oilhead, interesting nonetheless.The first is HP vs AFR at various power levels:


The second is flame front speed as a function of mixture (note that it is Fuel Air ratio not AFR). This shows pretty clearly that as you richen the mixture, you speed up combustion. It looks to me to be the equivalent of 2-3 degrees more advance for an AFR of 13.8 compared with 14.7, at 3000 RPM. At 6000 rpm it might be another 4-5 degrees if I'm doing the math right. Because of this effect I have been paying close attention to any hint of knock. There doesn't seem to be any probably because even though the timing advances some, knock resistance of richer mixtures is better.



So the bottom line is that when you richen the mixture several percent you're probably getting a triple benefit: a bit more torque from the extra fuel, a bit more torque from the more advanced (relatively) timing, and better efficiency due to better running and therefore into higher gears a several hundred RPM sooner than at 14.7:1.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/13/12 04:01 PM

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I realized several months ago that a GS-911 can be used as a personal Dynomometer. The key things you have to know are the vehicle's weight including rider (~800 lbs.) and aerodynamics (Cd=0.66, Frontal Area 8 sq-ft), gear ratios, and rear tire diameter (25.59" for PR2 in motion). You log the GS-911 to a data file, import it into Excel, run some math on the numbers and you have Torque, Horsepower and Acceleration. Working out how many feet/second of velocity are created per RPM in a gear is tedious but not difficult (0.01956667 for 4th gear).

It has been my belief based on the feel of my 2004 R1150RT that it has gained torque in the lower RPMs from running Closed Loop at 13.5:1 and fuel pressure at 52 psi. Spend some time looking at the charts below. The Excel chart is a scatter plot of 6 test runs that I took in 4th gear, no wind, 3 in one direction on the highway, 3 in the opposite. Some runs were better than others but I used them all. There are significant torque gains below 3500 RPM, especially between 2000 and 2500--this tracks my driving experience. My RT produces about 55 lb-ft at 2500 RPM compared to 45 lb-ft on Ron's sample. Note: The numbers I measured are actually 5% higher but, as with a Dyno, I reduced them by a factor of 0.956 to account for weather conditions.

Between 3000 RPM and 5000, my bike accelerates at about 12 ft/s. Anything over 10 ft/s gives you reasonable acceleration. In fourth gear that requires 48 lb-ft of engine torque, the curves on my RT show that at 2000 RPM. There are also gains at higher RPMs.

While I believe my data is accurate, the one thing I would say is that I was careful to get the run prepped for low RPMs by running along at idle in 4th or 5th gear, then crank open the throttle. I did not run quite to the Rev Limiter, choosing to let go of the throttle at around 7000 RPM. So my numbers might be a bit better due to the care of low RPM starting but I don't think that explains it all.

Enjoy the curve, I've got some more coming.



Stock bike from Ron Hankison's web site.

http://www.r1150rts.com/DynoData/Dyno_004b.htm
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/15/12 04:37 AM

Well, I took the plunge and installed an LC-1 on my '04 R1150RT. Installation was a snap in part thanks to Roger's excellent research and information. I borrowed a PC laptop to do the programming as I am a Mac user and the LC-1 software is not Mac compatible, wish it was. So, I went right for the gusto and programmed AFR to 13.5:1 and fired it up. Now, it is cold and snowing here today so I couldn't go for a ride but I can say the bike has never idled more smoothly. Was neat to watch it go closed loop with the display gauge showing 13.5:1 The idle was noticeably smoother than it was at the LC-1 default AFR of 14.7:1 Roger's thread convinced me that in the case of the Motronic 2.4 the only way to operate is with this wideband O2 sensor or just stick to the OEM narrow band sensor and put up with a bit of surging and never experience the performance these machines are capable of.

-Thanks Roger smile
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/18/12 03:00 AM

JamesW, Hope you get out to try the Wideband O2 before the spring. It has to stop snowing sometime. We're in a run of bad weather here too.

Being weather bound, I figured how to have excel create two scatter plots on the same chart. If you look back two posts the graph now shows Wideband and Stock Dyno runs. At some point I will program my own R1150RT to 14.7 and see now it "dynos".
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/18/12 04:47 AM

Hi Roger,
That chart really makes me want to take a ride. The stock bike graph is pretty close to the dyno chart on my 1100. Hard to believe that much of an increase in torque. Yes, would be interesting to see what your own results would be at 14.7:1 Wish I had read a thread like this about 8 years ago. At least I got back half what I paid for a Techlusion when I sold it a couple years ago. No question in my mind the wideband is the way to go. More cost affective and easy to install and set up especially if you are a pc user, not so easy if you favor Apple. Just thought I'd throw that in. smile

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/18/12 11:43 AM

I have Apples and PCs for just that reason.

Regarding the improved Torque, riding the bike is consistent with the improvement on the chart I've shown although I agree they are different bikes on different dynos.

I know my numbers are valid because I know the rate of acceleration (will plot soon), the weight of the bike and its resistance in the air. Even if you were to say that the torque numbers above 4000 RPM needed more analysis, riding my motorcyle makes it clear that the torque comparison at 4000 RPM and below is valid. I'll be interested to hear how yours rides when you get the weather. It's pouring here for the third day.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/27/12 04:11 AM

In the interest of documenting what the Motronic does under various conditions, I've added a plot of fuel injection time and spark advance logged during the WOT runs I made to produce the torque curve posted above.

(Below the advance/injection plot I've added a summary of the GS-911 data log for anyone interested in what's being collected. A typical test run has several thousand lines of data that gets imported to an excel spreadsheet. The first two columns of time and RPM are used to calculate acceleration, and from that torque and HP.)

The conditions for the WOT runs were: shift the bike into fourth gear; running along at 1500 RPM; and then open the throttle fully until about 7000 RPM.

Looking at the plots below a couple things stand out. On the injection time plot you can see the Motronic fire off 7 mS shots of fuel right away to get the acceleration goingvery rich, and keep in mind that each injector fires twice per combustion cycle. Then from 2200 to 4000 RPM, still WOT, the pulses drop to about 5.8 mSstill rich but a little less. From 4000 RPM to 5500 the injection time lengthens to 7.5 mS which is nearly on continuously at 7000 RPM. Between 5500 and 7000 RPM the engine is putting out 70 - 94 HP so the Motronic is keeping the mixture very rich. AFR on my bike is in the low to mid 12s for these WOT runs; by comparison the stock setting is in the 13s.

The Spark advance plot is interesting too. Although at mid RPM cruise the advance gets to about 43 degrees or so, you can see that the Motronic is more conservative with advance until 5500 RPM where for peak HP the Motronic brings in a few more degrees of advance to about 23.



Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/28/12 09:01 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
...

The Spark advance plot is interesting too. Although at mid RPM cruise the advance gets to about 43 degrees or so, you can see that the Motronic is more conservative with advance until 5500 RPM where for peak HP the Motronic brings in a few more degrees of advance to about 23.

...


Someone pointed out to me that this explanation is unclear. Nowhere on the spark advance plot does the advance get to 43 degrees. It probably should have read something like:

Looking at the Spark Advance plot, under the Wide Open Throttle conditions of this series of measurements, the Motronic is conservative with Spark Advance, holding it at 20 degrees or less until 5500 RPM. By comparison, under partial throttle cruising conditions the Spark Advance gets as high as 43 degrees.

In this forum, you've got to live with your mistakes unless you catch them quickly!
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/29/12 03:22 AM

That sounds much better. I didn't say anything but thought 43 degrees advance was a bit much.

Thanks for the correction.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/29/12 10:02 PM

A couple posts ago I showed the GS-911 data which is the source for the Dyno calculations that I've made. If you look at the first column there is a six digit number in milliseconds, and in the second column the RPM reported by the Motronic. By taking any two adjacent RPM differences and dividing it by the difference between the times for those two RPM values, you get a direct measure of acceleration. The formula for calculating the acceleration in feet per second-squared is:

Acceleration = (RPM2-RPM1)/(Time2-Time1)*19.6852 ... ( 19.6852 is equal to 1000 times the 4th gear drivetrain ratio including transmission, final drive and tire diameter)

In the chart below you can see the actual acceleration I measured for my R1150RT (the Blue Wideband line), five runs in fourth gear. These were 5 Wide Open Throttle runs after the Motronic had adapted itself fully to the Lambda = 0.92 setting (gasoline AFR 13.5:1). This acceleration data was the basis for the Torque curve I showed a few posts back. 12 feet per second-squared means the motorcycle accelerates by 8 MPH each second.

For the stock bike (Red line) I used the torque curves I showed earlier, and boosted them about 5% for the temperature and pressure conditions of the day; then calculated the acceleration that torque curve would produce in fourth gear. If you ignore the red (stock) line altogether, the Wideband acceleration is very good from 2000 RPM on up. And at 2400 RPM (11 fps2) the acceleration is nearly as good as at 5000 RPM (11.8 fps2). The boxer doesn't have to be a bike that only performs well at high RPMs.

Comparing the Red and Blue lines, there is a significant rate of acceleration advantage in favor of the Wideband curve between 2000 and 3000 RPM, which is what I experience while riding.

There's a saying, "There are three great lies ... lies, damned lies and statistics". That said, I'm pretty certain with all the measurements made and data collected, that the Oilheads run better with a bit more fuel. And given the number of comments you can find about bikes with Catalytic Converters running lean and the negative effects of that, it shouldn't be a surprise that a few percent more fuel improves them measureably.

Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/30/12 02:20 AM

Evening Roger,
Have you had a chance to test ride or experiment with a little richer mix around, say, 13:1? Have a copy of windows7 coming to install on my MacBook Pro so I will be ready to try some variations of AFR when weather improves.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/30/12 03:00 AM

Hi JamesW, I've tried mixtures from Lambda = 0.92 to 1.06 (yup, 6% leaner than stock). Most of my riding has been at 0.94 (13.8 for gasoline) and 0.96 (14.1). Lately I went from 0.94 to 0.92 because I noticed that immediately before Closed Loop was still a bit better than Closed Loop--the difference being that pre-Closed Loop was a few percent richer.

Having run 0.92 (13.5:1) for a while now, warm-up is no longer better than Closed Loop so I think I've hit the point of diminishing returns.

Some other things happen as you reduce Lambda. First, cold-start and warm-up enrichments, which are a percentage below Closed Loop, also get richer--you could get too rich on Cold Start although I made a couple starts at 20F recently without problem. Second, WOT gets proportionally richer. I have seen WOT AFRs below 12:1 occasionally--plenty rich enough.

For these reasons, I will probably stay at 13.5 but in the spring I will likely try 14.1 (lambda=0.94) again.

Have you got out to ride yet?
RB
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/30/12 05:31 AM

Nope, no riding. Nothing but cold (single digits at night) and snow/ice covered roads. Supposed to be cold and clear for next week or so but roads will be way to slick and then there is all the road sand. No salt just sand which is not the thing to be riding on. Probably will have to wait until March. frown

Thinking about moving to western Oregon, just rain there. mad
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/31/12 04:03 AM

We finally got snowed in here too. I'm thinking of pulling the exhaust and having a second 02 sensor bung welded on so that I can see what the stock O2 sensor does. I've got an idea how to reduce the lambda of the stock sensor.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/31/12 04:35 AM

Now that would be interesting and the wideband would let you know how successful you are.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/31/12 04:41 AM

That's the thought process. I'll have to do some hunting though to find a good neat welder in eastern Mass.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/01/13 09:34 PM

Just curious Roger but are you thinking about adding or inserting a DC bias voltage to skew the narrow band O2 sensor waveform as presented to the Motronic?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/03/13 04:58 PM

Originally Posted By: JamesW
Just curious Roger but are you thinking about adding or inserting a DC bias voltage to skew the narrow band O2 sensor waveform as presented to the Motronic?


Hi Jim, I'm analyzing 10,000 or so narrowband data points that I captured using the GS-911 before I mounted he Wideband O2 sensor. These points give me a good idea of the voltage range of the stock sensor in normal (14.7:1) open loop, closed loop and warm-up operation.

Although theory (and a lot of experience) suggest that there isn't enough useable AFR info at the rich end of of the narrowband curve, www.nightrider.com has a range of products that it (convincingly) claims will shift narrowband O2 sensors to 14.2:1. My experience with the LC-1 says that a lot of the richening benefit to driveability occurs at the 14.2 (lambda = 0.965) level.

What I'm not sure is whether there is any interest in a plug in adapter for the stock sensor. RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/04/13 09:37 PM

Replacing the stock narrowband O2 sensor with a Wideband O2 Sensor and Controller may be more of a project than many would undertake. The more I've worked with it the more comfortable I've become in saying that it's quite straightforward and without complication. It's also possible though that you could get a modest shift of Lambda with the stock narrowband sensor.

If you go back to page 1 of this thread you will find the chart that I'm reposting below. This is a plot of all the O2 sensor voltages that the GS-911 acquired during an extended test run. It is that known that something in the vicinity of 450 millivolts (0.45 on the chart) corresponds to a Lambda of 1 (meaning an AFR of 14.7:1). What is not so well documented is what is the AFR on an Oilhead when the O2 sensor voltage is between 650 and 900 millivolts. If the AFR is only 1% richer in that range then there's not much that can be done with the Narrowband sensor. However if those voltages correspond to a mixture that is 3-4% richer then there is probably a circuit and set of bias voltages that would allow a slightly richer operation of the Oilhead with the stock O2 sensor.

Since I'm planning to have the LC-1 initiate a recalibration of the Wideband Sensor (another neat thing about the Wideband O2), I'm thinking of putting my Narrowband in temporarily to see what the Motronic will do with a modified sensor. In other words will it hold Closed Loop if I alter the biases and voltages?

If that worked, then I might take my exhaust to a welder and have a second bung added so that I can accurately measure the Stock O2 sensor under standard and modified conditions.

If anyone knows of a good quality welder in the Metrowest Boston area I would gladly take the recommendation.

Stock O2 Sensor
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/04/13 10:44 PM

My gosh, I would think in your area good stainless welders would be easy to find. How about the yellow pages under metal fabricator or machine shop?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/05/13 04:07 AM

That helps, so I'm looking for a SS fabricator.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/06/13 05:16 AM

AEM makes a No-Weld O2 Sensor bung that is a clamp with bung and strip of adhesive. I thought about it for a while and decided against it.

There are surprisingly few good spots on the R1150RT to mount a second bung but It looks like the weld-in bung will fit on top of the cat/muffler about a half inch back from the attachment clamp. I found a photo (below) that shows the stock O2 sensor mounted on the inner side of the feed tube to the cat. It appears that there's clearance if I mount the bung on top and near the front.

An advantage of that spot is that it will free-up about a foot of the wideband sensor's cable that is used now to reverse course and clear the transmission. A downside is that I think the sensor would need to be removed before removing the exhaust.

Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/06/13 05:28 AM

While you're at it you could live dangerously and take your grinder with a thin cut-off wheel and open the top of the cat chamber and cut out that offending piece of crap called the cat converter. Then you would have lots of places to mount a bung.
Of course you would still have to find a stainless welder but think how wonderous it would be to just get rid of that offensive mechanism. Nope, haven't been drinking.

Took the grinder to my '04 when it was but a youngster. laugh
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/06/13 03:51 PM

I'm concerned that removing the cat material would alter the balance of the VE (fuel) table by changing the pressure at the exhaust outlet so I'll keep the Cat for the time being.

Here's where I'm thinking of mounting the bung and second sensor. If it works out, it might become the final home for the wideband.

Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/06/13 04:44 PM

That looks to be a good place and better than stock for sure and you could remove and replace much easier. Might be hard to remove exhaust assembly without first removing the O2 sensor but these are motorcycles not cars so nothing is easy due to compactness.

I don't think the cat converter is at all restrictive so about all you get with removal is a somewhat more mellow exhaust note. I wouldn't be concerned with changing back pressure. As I've said before the reason I opted to remove was the heat directly below the transmission but I really wonder if that's a valid issue. Guess I just had 50 bucks burning a hole in my pocket so I gave it to a welder. Guy did a neat job and you would never guess the catectomy was done. I do wonder how a richer mixture over time would affect free flow through the cat?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/12/13 03:45 AM

I've added a second O2 bung so that I can use the LC-1 Wideband sensor at the same time that the narrowband stock sensor is installed and feeding the Motronic.

The exhaust is back on with the Wideband sensor in the position near the catalytic converter, and the Narrowband sensor mounted in the new bung near the clamp. By connecting the Narrowband sensor to the Motronic and using the LC-1 as a recorder, I'm already getting data on the Narrowband/Motronic combo.

The first things that jump out at me:

The stock Narrowband sensor is much slower than the Wideband, no question. That means the Motronic takes a lot longer to make corrections.

The AFR spread is much larger with the Narrowband sensor. The larger spread plus the slower response shows fueling patterns that take seconds to change direction. Even in the quick data I've taken I've seen the mixture take 4 seconds to go from 15.4 to 14.2 while in closed loop. This is a long time and a fairly large change of mixture. The mixture change is large enough and slow enough that I'm sure it could be felt as su----g.

I'm going to do some riding with it tomorrow if the rain holds off and then post some plots and photos.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/12/13 05:15 PM

Well, that right there is reason to forget about using the narrow band sensor for anything but a bung hole plug. To do it right go to the wide band with LC-1. Somewhere I recall reading about slow response of the narrow band sensors. I think it was on some auto forum.

Windows7 on my MacBook Pro works great for making adjustments to my LC-1. Wasn't hard to install Windows7 in its own partition. The hard part was the time it took (6 hours) to download and install all the software updates. Made me appreciate the Mac OSX all the more. That said, I think when you marry the superior quality of Apple hardware with Windows you end up with a very fast and overall not bad computer system. Oops, forgot this is a mc forum, sorry.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/14/13 05:42 AM

I picked up my exhaust Friday afternoon after a local welder with TIG capability cut a hole an inch and a half in front of the stock bung, and then welded in a stainless steel bung.

Next everything was put back together with the Wideband O2 in the usual bung and a stock Narrowband Bosch O2 in the new location. The Narrowband O2 got connected to the Motronic. In order to return the bike to stock operation the fuel pressure boosting regulator was removed from the fuel return line. While the Wideband O2 was removed from the exhaust and in free-air, the LC-1 was recalibrateda nice feature it has.

Everything worked and the LC-1 and GS-911 started recording data on the stock setup. The LC-1 is a great tool for analyzing the stock sensor, coupled with the GS-911 you can clearly see what the engine is doing with mixture. Several test rides confirmed what I reported earlier, that the high/low AFR range during closed loop is between the low 14s:1 into fairly lean territory in the low 15s:1. Any injector mismatch would widen the range. The average AFR in Closed Loop was 14.7:1 as expected.

My test rides yesterday did remind me how differently the R1150 runs on the Narrowband sensor. When fully warmed up, with a light load in 1st, 2nd or 3rd gear in the 3000 to 3500 RPM range the motor feels on the edge of stumbling. On a slight downward grade in those gears/RPMs I could feel a light surging. I also found that I was shifting at higher RPMs than with the Wideband connected to the Motronic. Later when I pulled into the garage after the rides I could "smell" a hot-exhaust odor.

The richer mixtures (13.8:1) I had been running with the Wideand O2 connected for most of the past year improved driveability, softened the response to throttle and added muscle between 2000 and 3500 RPM. The richer mixtures were also reducing exhaust temperature. When I have time I will try and measure the temperature difference Wideband vs the stock O2.

Over the next few days I plan to see if the Narrowband sensor can be nudged to several tenths richer AFRwith a first target of 14.2:1. I'll report how that goes.

RB
Posted By: wallyging

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/21/13 01:41 AM

Ive been following roger04rts posts on enriching oilhead fueling using the LC-1 by Innovate Motorsports, and I finally installed one on my 2001 R1150GS (72,000 miles). I also installed a 3.5 bar k-bike fuel regulator. On Rogers advice I programmed the LC-1 at lambda .96, or 14.1:1 afr.

I took the bike out for several test rides of 30-40 miles, and monitored the AFR using the gauge included with the LC-1. Here are my seat-of-the-pants impressions. I dont have the experience with engines running at different AFRs that Roger has, and I did not do any data logging, so these are my non-technical, subjective impressions.

The best way I can describe the engine is it just feels more frisky to me, as if it is breathing easier (or, more correctly, less starved for fuel). It definitely has better torque in the 2500-3500 rpm range, and the on/off throttle is less abrupt. The bike surges less, but that is not completely gone (more on that later).

The bike switched to closed loop right at 3 bars on the RID. Since the 3.5 bar regulator was already producing fueling equivalent to lambda .96 the bike ran at 14.1:1 in closed loop immediately. It looked like the open loop tables had pretty much adapted to the richer closed loop mixture after a half hour of varied riding.
The bike seems to run in closed loop more than open loop. Under steady throttle on the flat and up and down moderate hills it stays in open loop 14.1:1. I was surprised to find that when slowing down (reduced but not closed throttle) the afr went richer (in the 13s) rather than leaner. It only goes leaner under closed throttle.

My bikes surging is most pronounced under steady throttle at 2500 3000 rpms in the lower gears, when the engine is transitioning from power to no power (fuel to no fuel) on a level road or very slight downhill. As noted above, the afr during these periods is actually richer than 14.1:1, which suggests the surging is not the result of an overly lean mixture. Rather, it seems to this non-techie guy that the surging is the result of the Motronic going from a somewhat abrupt power to no-power, rather than the mixture being so lean that any unevenness in the afr of the two cylinders produces uneven power. I rode an hour this afternoon with lambda .94 (afr 13.8:1) and there was no noticeable change in the surging.

Id like to thank Roger for doing all of the research and experimentation, and so generously sharing it with us. Roger was also very helpful during installation and tuning of the LC-1.

It has been a fun project! It took me more than a few hours to figure out where to put the LC-1 and the junction box on the GS since it uses the under seat space differently than the RT, and then do the actual installation and wiring, not to mention installing the 3.5 bar fuel regulator. Im happy I made the modification, however, and Im looking forward to warmer weather and more experimentation with the LC-1.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/21/13 02:22 AM

Hello Wally,
Well, that makes two of us that have installed an LC-1 mainly, in my case, as a result of Roger's thread and his research. I have mine programmed for 13.5:1 but must wait for a spring melt to try it out but I can't wait! About all I can say is that my '04RT idles much smoother in closed loop at 13.5:1 than idle at 14.7:1 which is the default AFR with the LC-1 before any programming. I am also running with the 3.5 BAR regulator. Thanks for your post, I don't feel alone anymore. wave

Jim
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/21/13 03:40 AM

Hey Wally, Thanks for the post. I've been curious to hear how it worked out. And yes it is in closed loop a lot, roughly 50% of the time.

If memory serves me correctly, the 1150GS is different in a number of ways:

--lower compression
--different intake tubes, exhaust, heads, cams
--different coding plug
--and yours is a single-spark model year

It'll be interesting to hear about your longer term experience.

RB
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/21/13 05:34 PM

Hello again Wally. You mentioned your bike seemed less sensitive to throttle input after installing the LC-1. One thing I found that was helpful in reducing low RPM slow speed surge was increasing throttle cable slack. I loosened the cable adjusters on the TB's so that the twist grip had about a 1/4" of free travel before lifting the throttle butterfly valves. This made the throttle less sensitive to small movements of my wrist while riding on roads that are even very slightly rough or bumpy. Seemed to help. I made this small adjustment before I ever heard of the LC-1.
Posted By: wallyging

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/22/13 02:57 AM

James, the less abrupt throttle on/off that I refer to is a positive -- the bike responds to throttle inputs just fine, but it is not as "jerky" as it was before the richer mixture with the LC-1.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/22/13 04:08 PM

Yeah, I got that Wally. I think I wasn't too clear. I refer to the jerkiness produced when trying to go from closed (no) throttle to slight throttle as in slowing down and needing to modulate the throttle slightly. This is where having some slack in the throttle cable comes into play. Probably not too helpful when riding along at constant speed in lower RPM ranges though.
Posted By: wallyging

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/24/13 01:24 AM

Thanks, Jim. I think mine has very little slack, and I'll try it with a little more.

I'm really itchin' for some reprieve in the weather so I can play around more with different settings on the LC-1. I'm going to set it back to 14.7 for a while to let the Motronic correct for the increased fueling from the 3.5 bar regulator. Then I'll set it back to 14.1 or less, to which the Motronic should adapt quickly, so I can get a better A/B comparison.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/24/13 03:34 AM

I've been studying the response of the Motronic to the standard Narrowband O2 sensor over the past couple weeks now that I can run two sensors at the same time.

It turns out that one of the Motronic's interesting characteristics is that it adapts to the O2 sensor voltage swing. That is, as the O2 sensor swing gets smaller, the switching threshold inside the Motronic gets lower. Also, the O2 inputs to the Motronic are, in electronics terms, floating. A result of these two issues is that the Motronic appears, incorrectly, to run closed loop a little leaner than lambda=1.

Looking at 1000 closed loop voltages, 55% of them are "lean" voltages and 45% are rich voltages. (The median narrowband sensor voltage in closed loop was 360 mV. To be at lambda=1 you would expect the median to be 450 mV.) This bias toward lean was a surprise, and one that I've triple checked. I have to look at it more but I'm inclined to think that the 1150, in closed loop, might be running about lambda=1.01/1.02 when it should actually be 1.00.

The second thing I can see is that the afr variation using the narrowband sensor is roughly twice as large compared to the LC-1 closed loop. So the narrowband AFR swing goes from 14.4:1 to 15.0:1 whereas the LC-1, when setmat lambda=1, is 14.5/6 to 14.8/9.

At least for now, it looks to me like a better A/B comparison would be to use 0.94 and 1.02/3.

Posted By: wallyging

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/24/13 11:31 PM

Very interesting data, Roger. It's great to have you doing all of the research on this. When it warms up a little I'll set lambda to 1.02 for a while, then switch back to .94. That should make for quite a difference in performance, I suspect. It will be interesting to compare with your experience.

The GS is a little different beast than the RT, and mine does not have the dual plugs like your's, but I expect I'll see a similar difference in performance.
Posted By: wallyging

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/29/13 02:02 AM

It warmed uo to 40 degrees today so I reset the Motronic, programmed the LC-1 to lambda 1.01, turned on the "choke", started the bike and let it warm up. I have the 3.5 bar fuel regulator installed, so the bike was running about 6% richer than stock during open loop. While the RID was still at 2 bars the Motronic went closed loop, and I noticed an immediate and marked reduction in rpm. At closed loop the afr was right at 14.7:1 or a little leaner. (I am monitoring afr on the gauge included with the LC-1.)

It was dark, so I didn't go for a ride, but I should be able to do that tomorrow. I'll be interested to see if I can replicate this evening's results, and I'll take careful note of actual afrs during warm-up and at the switch to closed loop.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/29/13 03:16 AM

Glad to hear you're getting some rideable weather. We've had really cold mixed with snow and cold. May just catch a warm wave.

Your idle experiment matches mine. I incremented lambda in 0.01 steps from 0.92 to 1.02 while taking data on another idea. At the end I moved lambda back to 0.94 from 1.02 and the idle picked up 150 RPM.

Your work on the GS with its different gearing, intake tubes, cams, heads and compression will give everyone a good idea how this will work on the single spark GS. Thanks for the effort.
Posted By: wallyging

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/30/13 04:10 PM

I took advantage of our 60 degree weather today and took the GS out for the afternoon to experiment with different lambdas.

Taking Roger's advice I first programmed the LC-1 to lambda = 1.04 to get the bike back to what stock would be with the original O2 narrow band sensor. The engine felt more anemic, and the surging returned in the 3000 5000 rpm range and was noticeable during most driving conditions except for WOT. It didnt take me long to realize I didnt want to keep it at 1.04.

Next I set lambda = .92, and that did away with most of the surging, although a minor amount of hunting was detectable in the range of 2500 3500 under ideal circumstances (steady throttle on level or slight downhill grade on smooth road).

I thought .92 might be a little too rich for the cat and for mileage so I bumped it up to lambda = .94 to see if I could tell much difference. I couldnt. The bike runs much better at .94 than it did at 1.04 I guess that is not much of a surprise. But it definitely is more lively I had to watch it to keep the front wheel on the ground in 1st and 2nd gear!

The Motronic adapted to the new lambda values quite rapidly. Closed loop adaptation was immediate, and open loop values seemed to change somewhat over the first 20 miles or so. It is difficult to tell what exactly what is happening just looking at the gauge.

I noticed a curious thing when reducing the throttle, but not closing it completely, the bike ran richer. At a steady throttle on slight downhills the mixture would hold steady at the closed loop value, but if it was a steep downhill the mixture got richer the Motronic wasnt able to get back to the set lambda value. My only explanation is that the Motronic must not realize the bike is going downhill, and since the engine isnt pulling as hard and not taking in as much air, the mixture becomes richer. Ill be interested to hear other opinions on this.

Additional info: valves were adjusted within last 1000 miles, new plugs were installed, and the TB sync is spot on verified again today. Could the bike possibly have dirty injectors (bike has 70,000 miles), or are GSs more prone to surging?
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/31/13 12:35 AM

Are you using the fabled Autolite 3923 plug by chance?
Posted By: wallyging

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/31/13 08:25 PM

I had been using Bosch 4417's, but put in Autolite 3923's before going for a nice ride yesterday afternoon. I also put some Techron in the tank. Instead of focusing on how the engine was running I just decided to ride -- took some nice secondary roads, a few curves, a fair amount of hills, and 20 miles of freeway.

Boy what a difference compared to the "old" bike! There is a goodly increase in torque, particularly noticeable in the 3000-4000 rpm range where I often ride. I found myself giving it lots of throttle whenever there was the slightest opportunity, and had to be careful in 1st and 2nd gear not to let the front wheel come off the ground! I never had that "problem" before the LC-1. The "surge" seemed a little less than the day before, but I could still feel it. The wideband O2 modification is definitely a keeper. I'm running at lambda =.94 (13.8 AFR), and plan to just leave it there for a while.

A little reflection on my experience and exchanges with Roger leads me to wonder just what constitutes a surge? We talk about "surging" as though everyone knows what we mean, but I suspect it means somewhat different things to different people. Do conditions matter, for example, is it detectable in normal riding vs. optimal conditions for surging? Is there a way to quantify the surge -- how strongly it is felt, at what rpms, in what gears, etc.? Yesterday I could detect what to me was a slight surge, but I suspect others may not notice it or think of it surging. Since we use surging as one criterion of how our bikes are running it might be good to be more specific about what we mean.
Posted By: tallman

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/01/13 02:08 PM

And, being redundant, 3-4krpm is where a lot of "hunting" happens.
Keep the revs higher and the bike runs better in almost every case.
YMMV
Not a criticism, ride your bike the way you want to but torque/hp/smiles happen higher up the rev curve on a boxer.
Best wishes.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/01/13 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By: tallman
And, being redundant, 3-4krpm is where a lot of "hunting" happens.
Keep the revs higher and the bike runs better in almost every case.
YMMV
Not a criticism, ride your bike the way you want to but torque/hp/smiles happen higher up the rev curve on a boxer.
Best wishes.


You're right, that's the way the lean-fueled boxer performs. The point of adding some fuel by way of shifting Lambda, changes the game. Where the stock boxer appreciates higher RPMs, you can see from the chart below and others a couple pages back in the thread, that the well-fueled R1150 accelerates just as well (11 fpss) at 2300 RPM as the stock boxer does at 3800 RPM.

Posted By: tallman

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/01/13 02:32 PM

Roger,
Yes.

But many/most will not go that route for whatever reason.
Hence, rev it and ride the boxer is good for them.
For anyone as informed and interested and willing to do the work/mods a different road.

Like I said, not criticizing.

Must have had hundreds of test rides with new to the boxer rider.
Too many wanted to ride it like a cruiser and park in the 2500-3k range in 5th/6th.
Their comments about the response/feeling etc would lead to another ride w/explicit shifting rev suggestions.

Most of them bought after that.
thumbsup

Appreciate all the time and work some of y'all do to explore the parameters.
Might even do that if I go back to a boxer.
Best wishes.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/01/13 03:05 PM

Thanks tallman. I didn't take it critically but wallyging is the first to my knowledge to try this on the GS with single spark and lower compression, etc. He's getting the same low end boost that JamesW and I've reported on RTs. Interesting data point: when I switched back to the stock sensor I found myself shifting 800-1000 RPM higher than with the Wideband at 13.8. Like most, I shift by feel, not by the tach.

The question wallyging asked is interesting, what is surging and what is hunting, what are the exact processes happening? With that knowledge there might be a solution. Recently, with the stock sensor installed and connected to the Motronic but with the LC-1 and GS-911 recording, I was able to create the light-throttle, low-gear, slight-downhill symptoms (very subtle) wallyging mentioned but I couldn't see a pattern in any of the data. When I get time and interest I'll look some more.
Posted By: tallman

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/01/13 03:30 PM

And some heat for the work area...
grin
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/06/13 03:58 AM

Changing the subject back to my Wideband and O2 research, I've been looking at the signals going to and from the O2 sensor.

This is just some, "isn't that interesting" stuff. The stock O2 sensor is two devices in the same package. One device is a heater to make sure the second device, a lambda cell, is hot enough to function properly.

Stock O2 Sensor Heater
On the R1100 and R1150, +12V to the heater in the O2 sensor comes from the same circuit that powers the fuel pump and fuel injectors.

The ground connection for the O2 heater is hardwired to ground on the R1100 so the heater comes on as soon as the engine starts.

On the R1150 the "ground" wire for the heater is connected to a switch in the Motronic that waits the motor to be running for a minute or two before it turns the heater on. I can only guess why. It may be for reliabilityheater is off till it is warmed by the exhaust so the heater isn't cold shocked at startup.

A malfunctioning heater could keep the sensor from working well. In my test setup I keep an LED connected to the heater so I know if it's on.

Stock O2 Sensor Lambda Cell
When hot (750F or more for a workable signal) this cell puts out about 800 mV when there is no oxygen in the exhaust (mixture richer than 14.7:1). When it detects any oxygen in the exhaust, mixture leaner than 14.7:1, it outputs only 100mV. So the O2 sensor only tells the Motronic if the exhaust gas has, or does not have any oxygen in it

On the R1100, the low side of the lambda sensor is connected to ground. The high side connects to the Motronic.

On the R1150 (and 1200s too) both the high and low wires connect to the Motronic. There is no direct connection to ground. Inside the Motronic is a very clever circuit that "adapts" to the signal swing. Even if the lambda sensor isn't working well the Motronic manages to find the 14.7:1 changeover point. I've cut the signal by 2/3 and the Motronic MA 2.4 manages to find a workable signal.

I'm wondering how many 10-20 year old lambda sensors are still functioning properly. It really is a part of the bike that we're blind to. And to make matters worse, not only Re we blind to what it's doing, it is the Motronic most important sensor for good running qualities. If its bad you'll run badly.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/07/13 12:53 PM

Morning Roger

On the 1150 holding the 02 heater ground until the engine has been running for a short while I can only guess.
I don't believe it is for 02 protection as most older narrow band automobiles brought the 02 heater on as soon as engine starts. Also the 1100 brought the (basically same) 02 on as soon as engine started & those 02 sensors are hearty as paper clips.

The thing that comes to mind here (just a guess though) is the 1100 had a stalling issue (in stock unmolested form) under some slow cold ride off conditions just about the time the 02 sensor started reacting. That problem usually went away if the 02 was disconnected. If the 02 operation could be delayed until the engine was a just bit warmer that stalling issue might be prevented.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/07/13 09:21 PM

I don't have the data yet but I'll bet that the heater is triggered by the oil temp sensor. One thing I know is that the heater comes on minutes before closed loop starts. The LC-1 install wants the sensor mounted betwee 10 and 2 o'clock so that condensation doesn't build up. Come to think of it there is extra spark advance during the time when the heater is off. I don't know if the extra advance termination and heater on are coincident but I'll check.
Posted By: wallyging

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/13/13 10:44 PM

Here's an update on the LC-1 on my 2001 R1150 GS:

The fuel injectors I had sent off for cleaning (RC Engineering) came back today. The report showed they had flow rates of 315 and 294 cc/min before cleaning; and 321 and 319 cc/min respectively after cleaning. The 21 cc/min difference between cylinders before cleaning seems like a lot, which I believe could account for the slight surge I still had after installing the RC-1.

So I installed the cleaned injectors and went for a ride, syncing the TBs after the engine was fully warmed up. The surging is now gone! I had forgotten just how smooth and torquey the GS is with the richer fueling. The LC-1 transformed the bike. I rode like a hooligan coming home big smile on my face, 30 degree weather notwithstanding.

Thanks Roger for your help every step of the way. For me, this is a modification well worth doing.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/13/13 11:08 PM

Well, going to take my first ride with the LC-1 tomorrow or Friday, can't wait! If I pull a wheelie with my RT...... rofl
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/14/13 11:21 AM

Originally Posted By: JamesW
Well, going to take my first ride with the LC-1 tomorrow or Friday, can't wait! If I pull a wheelie with my RT...... rofl


My '04 RT doesn't pull wheelies, at least I can't make that happen ...
Posted By: dan cata

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/14/13 11:27 AM

It won't happen using just the gas, you need the clutch too laugh

Dan.
Posted By: Boffin

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/14/13 11:30 AM

Originally Posted By: dan cata
It won't happen using just the gas, you need the clutch too laugh

Dan.


Mine does not need the clutch, roll in 1st gear at about 20mph, dip the throttle then gas it with a tug on the bars...

Not a massive wheelie - just a few inches off the road...

Andy
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/14/13 12:23 PM

Originally Posted By: wallyging
Here's an update on the LC-1 on my 2001 R1150 GS:

The fuel injectors I had sent off for cleaning (RC Engineering) came back today. The report showed they had flow rates of 315 and 294 cc/min before cleaning; and 321 and 319 cc/min respectively after cleaning. The 21 cc/min difference between cylinders before cleaning seems like a lot, which I believe could account for the slight surge I still had after installing the RC-1.

So I installed the cleaned injectors and went for a ride, syncing the TBs after the engine was fully warmed up. The surging is now gone! I had forgotten just how smooth and torquey the GS is with the richer fueling. The LC-1 transformed the bike. I rode like a hooligan coming home big smile on my face, 30 degree weather notwithstanding.

Thanks Roger for your help every step of the way. For me, this is a modification well worth doing.


That is a fairly large injector mismatch for a lean-fueled engine as yours was with the stock O2 sensor installed. When using the stock sensor I see AFRs move between 14.3:1 and 15.1. Since your cylinders had a 7% fueling imbalance so taking half that amount and adding another 3.5% to the 15.1:1 your leanest cylinder was at times in the vicinity of 15.6:1, a very lean mixture.

Also, around stoic, the fuel is converted to power at about half the difference of 7%, so one cylinder was producing 3-4% more or less power than the other. Your engine should be somewhat smoother now.

As you richened the mixture with your LC-1 but before you cleaned the injectors, you adding fuel and consuming the excess oxygen. As you do that your bike became less sensitive to the injector imbalance because once you've consumed all the oxygen the excess fuel can't be burned and the power differences diminish.

Glad it is working out for you.
RB
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/15/13 11:30 PM

At long last the day finally came today to fire up the R1150RT (04) and go for a ride to test the LC-1 with wideband O2 sensor. I am running with 13.5:1 AFR dialed in on the LC-1 along with a 3.5 BAR fuel pressure regulator.

I did most of my run on I84 from Baker City to Ontario and back a distance of some 135 miles with some pretty good 6% grades. The temp was 45F sunny with calm wind.

After giving the Motronic time to "learn" I began doing some 6th gear roll ons allowing the revs to drop to 2500 then rolling on the throttle and all I can say is WOW!! It is like having a completely re-tunned motorcycle. I have always felt like I should be in 5th gear for most all of my riding on freeways as well as secondary roads but no more. She would pull effortlessly in 6th from 50 MPH right up to 100+ MPH and RIGHT NOW with no sensation of needing to be down shifted at all. In fact, I found myself having to really pay close attention to my speed because the motorcycle performs so smoothly and effortlessly. Also, it has never idled so smoothly, kind of reminded me of a multi cylinder auto engine. I makes these comments honestly without exaggeration, I hope.

Was installation of the LC-1 worth it? Not only yes but HELL YES! I would gladly pay double the price for this kind of performance.

Thanks Roger smile smile
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/17/13 04:43 AM

Really glad to hear that it's working out.

Since this thread is very long now I'd like to mention that although I made several dozen tests to make sure that the LC-1 worked harmoniously with the Motronic, the installation is in most ways pretty easy. Anyone wishing to make this mod doesn't need to remake any of my tests.

If you get an O2 sensor connector, wire it per the diagram below and program 6 numbers with a PC, it will just work.

I would be happy to provide e-mail support this year for anyone who wants to give it a go. The outlay for all the parts is less than $200.

I know that this is not within everyone's skill set but the diagrams below are what needs to be done. Pull the various LC-1 cables into a plastic box and connect the wires.
RB


Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/17/13 12:25 PM

Hi James and Roger

This topic is always fun for me to look

This spring i will certainly buy a lc1 and install it. Presently, I have a homemade Booster plug and my O2 sensor is not connected

Here, there's about 3 ft of snow (for me it's white shit) so my bike will go outside at the end of april.

James, as you previously had a homemade BP, I would like to know if the 3.5 bar pressure regulator makes a big difference about the results you get. There's two things I would like to know.

1- If the wideband O2 can adjust the AFR to 13.5:1, why use more pressure if I can get the right AFR with only the Wideband O2

2- Is there a big difference to use the LC! with (A) a BP or (B) a 3.3 bar regulator

My main spark plugs readings always showed a coloration difference between the two cylinders so I will probably also do an injector cleaning.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/17/13 04:18 PM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Hi James and Roger

This topic is always fun for me to look

This spring i will certainly buy a lc1 and install it. Presently, I have a homemade Booster plug and my O2 sensor is not connected

Here, there's about 3 ft of snow (for me it's white shit) so my bike will go outside at the end of april.

James, as you previously had a homemade BP, I would like to know if the 3.5 bar pressure regulator makes a big difference about the results you get. There's two things I would like to know.

1- If the wideband O2 can adjust the AFR to 13.5:1, why use more pressure if I can get the right AFR with only the Wideband O2

2- Is there a big difference to use the LC! with (A) a BP or (B) a 3.3 bar regulator

My main spark plugs readings always showed a coloration difference between the two cylinders so I will probably also do an injector cleaning.


Hi Legarem,
I use the 3.5 BAR regulator to richen things up when the bike is running in open loop and the O2 sensor is not providing feedback to the Motronic. You could accomplish the same thing by just using a BP without the 3.5 BAR regulator to richen in open loop. I found that with the 3.5 BAR it was not necessary to fudge the air input temperature. Before installing the LC-1 I ran with a homemade BP with O2 disconnected so the BP was always in the circuit. It always seemed like I couldn't really find a good value for the BP. It seemed like the bike was always running a bit too rich or lean and seldom just right. I haven't switched back and forth between the 3.5 BAR and the BP to compare because it is such a hassle to swap out the regulator and I would still use the regulator over the BP anyway. Roger totally convinced me with his extensive tests and data that the best solution was to not attempt to fool the Motronic or restrict its operation by disconnecting the O2 sensor and thereby preventing closed loop running.

Another interesting thing I observed the other day when I did my first test run with the LC-1 was how the bike started cold after not be started since installation of the LC-1 several months ago was the very quick start up. All I did was punch the start button and she started and ran like it was a summer day and already fully warmed up after a several hours run. The LC-1 in combination with the 3.5 BAR regulator simply transformed my motorcycle. Now my '04RT actually starts and runs better than my '94 R1100RSL, a complete reversal of what was. I said I wasn't going to fool with the 1100 but now.......

Oh, forgot to mention..I suspect that if the only mod to my bike was the LC-1 without the 3.5 BAR regulator or BP that I would be very satisfied with its performance. If I was going to try any further mod it would be to replace the regulator with the stock 3.0 BAR and stock AIT sensor.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/17/13 04:25 PM

The only reason to boost the fuel pressure or shift temperature down by 20C is to reduce the amount of time the Motronic spends adapting to the richer lambda. For example if you set the LC-1 to lambda = 0.94 (13.8:1) the Motronic has to learn (and fill in) a table of 6% correction values (Adaptation Values) since the basic tables have values (in the lambda control range) corresponding to 14.7:1 gasoline. That takes time for it to learn. And if your fuel has ethanol (4% leaner) it has to make a 10% Adaptation.

Also, the basic map has something like 12X16 values (192) whereas the adaptation table is perhaps 4X6, certainly much coarser. When you boost fuel pressure, you affect the amount of fuel injected by every one of the 12X16 values in the table. The boosterplug will do the same thing but no one knows if the Motronic puts any limits on temperature adjustments nor do we know if there are any affects on timing from the lower temperatures--none have been reported but it is an open question.

Hope that is clear.
RB
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/17/13 04:59 PM

Forgot to mention that i am going over to Big Twin at Boise this spring if they have another dyno day because I am very curious about how the torque curve has been affected by installation of the LC-1. This obvious torque increase at lower RPM which makes 6th gear so usable is just hard to describe in words. If there ever was a farkle worth purchasing it would be the LC-1 no doubt about it!

Now, I admit when this thread began I was very skeptical and even somewhat argumentative, but not anymore because I saw for myself and I just can't believe it!

Hope it warms up today as I feel the need to ride on my new '04RT.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/17/13 07:52 PM

Thanks a lot guys

As my shed is not heated, in about one month (I hope) I will have to renew the gas hoses in the tank and the fuel filter, I will install the LC!,the regulator and makes the injector cleaned. I also have to replace the swing arm rear bearings for bushings. After that, my bike should be ok for a lot of time.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/20/13 01:02 PM

James

I know you're using a R1200xx fuel pressure regulator. I looked at R1200RT fuel regulators and saw that there's a 3.5 bar regulator and after 2010 they used a 4 bar fuel regulator, Which one do you use ?

If I use a BMW part, do I have to change the fuel regulator housing or just the clipped fuel regulator that goes in the housing ? I would be happy to keep my hoses as stock as possible.

Thanks
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/20/13 02:53 PM

I'm sure Jim will comment but he and wsg used the 3.5 bar regulator, and just replaced it. There are two O-rings that may need replacement.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/20/13 04:31 PM

Roger is correct, am using the 3.5 BAR regulator and it seems to be a good choice with the LC-1. In fact if I had it to do over I would just install an LC-1 and maybe think about the fuel pressure regulator. But the LC-1 for sure without any doubt.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/24/13 01:11 PM

Just to be sure they are the right kits before ordering.

Are they ok ?

Did you buy one with a meter or not ? For the price difference, i'm tempted to buy the kit with the meter. Thanks


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Innovate-Motorsp...69a&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Innovate-3795-Mo...17c&vxp=mtr
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/24/13 02:51 PM

Either of these will work. A gauge is a "nice to have" but you don't have to have it. I didn't permanently mount the gauge but I think some will want to.

Over the long run, buying a serial to usb cable which you will need in order to set 4-6 simple parameters, will give you a gauge on your PC and a graph of AFR which is much more revealingand a super diagnostic tool. Never again will you have to guess is my engine running rich or lean.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/25/13 12:00 AM

Thanks Roger

Item with meter bought. For an added amount of only $15, I decided to take it with the meter.

Now I have to wait warm days to install it and test it at the end of april to feel the results.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/25/13 02:29 AM

Hi Marc,
I think you will be surprised.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/04/13 04:41 AM

A couple of months ago I installed a second bung in the exhaust of my R1150RT. I wanted to have both a Wideband O2 and a Narrowband O2 installed and running at the same time. The idea was to let the Motronic use the Narrowband in the usual way while I recorded the results of Motronic/Narrowband by monitoring the Wideband. In other words using the Wideband to spy on the Narrowband. Second Bung Install.

The Wideband showed that the Narrowband/Motronic pair kept the Closed Loop fuel right at lambda=1 (AFR 14.7:1).

Then I wanted to see if there was some kind of circuit that could be inserted in series with the Narrowband to richen the mixture without having to add an LC-1. The Narrowband sensor is well designed and has a big change of voltage right at Lambda=1. Just a bit leaner and its output drops to 100mV. Just a bit richer and its output jumps to 800mV.

The exact rich output voltage increases from about 700mV at 14.6:1 to about 900mV at 13.8:1. That is a small voltage change for a large mixture change, which means it is too small a change for the Motronic to work with.

Compounding matters, in the rich zone, from 700 to 900mV, the voltage changes as the exhaust gets hotter from higher engine load. Another way to say the same thing is that the voltage that corresponds, for example, to 14.1:1 (slightly rich) changes with engine loading. Compounding the problem further, the Motronic has a clever circuit that figures out if the voltages have been shifted. It uses that circuit to ignore simple shifts of the O2 signal.

I also built a test harness which allowed me to add circuits in series with the the stock O2. I tried a dozen different ideas, including some patented circuits from nightrider.com that work on Harley Davidsons. Nothing worked.

Over the last year, I've gotten to know the owner of nightrider, Steve Mullen. One of his Harley O2 richening products has a microprocessor inside. As designed for the Harleys, it didn't work either. But a couple weeks ago, we discussed and agreed on a different algorithm. Steve coded it up and sent me a new "chip" just for BMWs.

To make a long story short, the new "chip", with some other circuit changes, will pull the Narrowband sensor several percent into the rich zone. The way it works is that the microprocessor module measures the stock O2 sensor voltage, filters it to reduce noise, and then alters the voltage transfer function so that the signal it sends to the Motronic looks like a normal Narrowband sensor that is switching at a richer lambda (range is 0-6% richer).

As it is designed (proto with many extra wires, below) you unplug the stock O2 and plug this device between the two stock connectors. There is a ground wire to connect also. There is already power in the O2 sensor cable so no power connection or new fuse is required. The final product will be about 1/2" x 1" x 3" with two OEM connectors, plus one ground wire.

I have test ridden this circuit at 13.8, 14.1, 14.3 and 14.45 and will post some charts and other data tomorrow.

For those interested, PM me. We will build a couple of modules for pre-production trials for R1150XX with Motronic MA 2.4. Assuming everything works it will then go into production.

RB

Prototype test cable harness and small O2 processor device. Final product would be just the processor, two thin cables with OEM connectors and a ground wirea simple plug 'n play solution.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/04/13 11:50 AM

Quote:
Any reason this wouldn't work on an 1100RT as well? Its Motronic is not as smart but you are spoofing the signal before it ever gets there. And it uses the same narrow band sensor setup.

Nice work BTW. Enjoyed following.


There's every reason to believe that the Lambda shift circuit (or an LC-1) would work just as well on an R1100. One the R1150 is off the ground one of two things needs to happen: a) find a source for the male and female O2 sensor connectors used on 1100s; or b) make it with a new OEM Narrowband O2 sensor.

If you know of a connector source that would speed things up.
RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/05/13 03:15 AM

Below is a plot of the O2 Circuit with Narrowband at the bottom of the chart, and an LC-1 at the top. The LC-1 is set to 13.8 (the red line) but it would have the same look at any programmed AFR. The thing that jumps out is how solidly the Motronic locks the LC-1 onto the target AFR.

In the bottom chart the O2 Circuit & Narrowband was set to 13.8:1. The result was 14.0:1 at hot idle (the red line) and 13.6 (the blue line) at 80MPH cruise. Different loads resulted in different Closed Loop AFRs. Interestingly higher loads lead to richer mixtures which isn't terriblesome might even say it's a good feature. (Hotter exhaust makes the O2 sensor produce a given voltage at a richer mixture.)

This means the spread was 0.2 AFR between idle and 80 mph and that was with the narrowband pulled a long way off its design point. There are some additional data sets below the charts. (Note that the first few minutes is very rich. That's the Open Loop Cold-Start Fueling.)



After two more test rides, I have a good data base at three settings. Setting 5, 7 and 8 are actual and setting 6 is estimated but I will ride it later. The data look pretty good. The curves for the various settings all look like the one above. Here are the different results:

S8: 13.8 0.2 AFR
S7: 14.1 0.2
S6: 14.3 0.15 (estimated)
S5: 14.45 0.125

It is my opinion that most bikes will run great at setting 6 or 7. An important point here is that when you richen closed loop AFR, the open loop fueling gets richer too, coming along for the ride through a process known as Adaptation.

As I said earlier, because of the heating, the mixtures get a little richer with higher loads. Looking at those numbers above, the lean end of the range occurs at idle and the rich end of the range happens at 80 mph.

There are still a few small adjustments to make to voltage levels and to the algorithm. Then we find sources for the OEM O2 connectors, then a few pre-production units.

RB
Posted By: dan cata

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/05/13 12:44 PM

Looks interesting. I wonder if that works on my 1100rt.

Dan.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/05/13 01:49 PM

Originally Posted By: dan cata
Looks interesting. I wonder if that works on my 1100rt.

Dan.


Hi Dan, I haven't tried it on an R1100 but it should work. In order to make it plug 'n play for the R1100 there needs to be a source for the male and female O2 connectors (looking now) used on the O2 sensor. It could be made with crimp connectors and use the bike's existing O2 sensor cable/connector. RB
Posted By: dan cata

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/05/13 01:58 PM

The connectors on my bike are just like the ones in your pic above.

Dan.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/06/13 03:12 AM

Originally Posted By: dan cata
The connectors on my bike are just like the ones in your pic above.

Dan.


Hi Dan,
I didn't know that I thought the r1100 used a different O2 connector. Can you tell me which years or models used which of the two styles below?

R1150



R1100 (I thought)

Posted By: allynr1100

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/06/13 08:21 PM

The sensor on my 1999 R1100RT looks like the bottom picture.
Posted By: wallyging

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/12/13 02:11 PM

Roger and others...

I noticed something interesting on my LC-1 equipped 2001 R1150GS. I have Lambda set at .94 (13.8:1 AFR). As long as I ride below 4000 rpms the engine hovers right around 13.8 on level going and modest uphills. However, above 4000 rpm the AFR goes up to 14.4 on level going while maintaining steady speed. If I increase throttle enough for the engine to pull a little, the AFR drops back to 13.8.

I've ridden several hundred miles, so I wouldn't think the Motronic is still learning. And even if it was, I would expect steady speed on level going to be running in closed loop, which should be 13.8. I've observed the above pattern in gears 1, 2 & 3. I'll need to get on a bigger highway to test it out in the upper gears.

Could it be that the Motronic is designed to lean out the mixture when it thinks the bike is cruising (steady throttle, above 4000 rpms)? I have no way of knowing for certain when the bike is in closed vs. open loop, since the only feedback I'm getting is the AFR gauge.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/12/13 02:41 PM

Hi Wally,
I've noticed that on my bike, in neutral, Closed Loop stops just above 2000 RPM. Perhaps lighter loads exit CL earlier than I've seen.

This could be a difference between Closed and Open Loop areas for the RT and GS models. I can tell you for sure that my RT remains in Closed Loop up to something like 6000 RPM and at speeds over a hundred miles per hour. I've got lots of plots and data showing the Closed Loop status (GS-911) and AFR (from the LC-1).

Can you connect a PC and get a running log of the data. (I strap my PC to the rear seat). You run with the serial cable connected and a program you got with the LC-1 called Logworks. That will tell us a lot.

If you can, try running the same test with the Pink Coding plug instaleled (30-87-87a) we could figure out whether it is coding plug related, or whether the difference is my MA 2.4; or whether it's something else.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/12/13 10:03 PM

Wally,
This is very very interesting data. I hope that you can do some logging.

It now seems to me that the Motronic might be executing a Deceleration Enleanment program in Open Loop. If that's the case, we'll need some more data to figure it out. That 14.4 is 6% leaner than your target AFR. If you had a narrowband sensor it would be 15.3:1 or leaner!

It is tempting to think about what it would feel like if under these conditions the Motronic was going back and forth between Closed Loop and Decel enleanment. Or what it might feel like if your bike was not running 13.8:1 but 14.7. Might it feel like sur.....

Okay, well let us know when you have more data.
RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/16/13 02:59 AM

Originally Posted By: wallyging
Roger and others...

I noticed something interesting on my LC-1 equipped 2001 R1150GS. I have Lambda set at .94 (13.8:1 AFR). As long as I ride below 4000 rpms the engine hovers right around 13.8 on level going and modest uphills. However, above 4000 rpm the AFR goes up to 14.4 on level going while maintaining steady speed. If I increase throttle enough for the engine to pull a little, the AFR drops back to 13.8.

I've ridden several hundred miles, so I wouldn't think the Motronic is still learning. And even if it was, I would expect steady speed on level going to be running in closed loop, which should be 13.8. I've observed the above pattern in gears 1, 2 & 3. I'll need to get on a bigger highway to test it out in the upper gears.

Could it be that the Motronic is designed to lean out the mixture when it thinks the bike is cruising (steady throttle, above 4000 rpms)? I have no way of knowing for certain when the bike is in closed vs. open loop, since the only feedback I'm getting is the AFR gauge.



Hi Wally, I went out and did some quick datalogging in first, second and third gear. The Motronic does go Open Loop at small TPS angles and RPMs above about 4K--but that's what your numbers 14.4 were saying.

If there is a slight acceleration my mixture at 4500 RPMs got richer than the closed loop target (acceleration enrichment) but with even the slightest deceleration in 3rd gear the mixture got slightly leaner (deceleration enleanment).

This provides a possible model for 4000-rpm-and-above, small-TPS-angle, driveability problems. The Motronic is a) Open Loop; b) in low gears with lots of deceleration/acceleration torque, and c) in some cases not too far from triggering the abruptness of Overrun Fuel Cutoff.

The interesting thing is that with my 13.8:1 Closed Loop AFRs I can see these effects in the data log but I don't experience the effect as a driveability problem. If I cut the mixture to stock 14.7:1 I can start to feel the effect as well as see it in the log.

BTW, since it was connected (testing proto 2 now) I made these runs using the prototype narrowband-shifting device I mentioned a few posts back. So it seems to be doing just as effective a job as the LC-1 (which I still prefer for datalogging).
Posted By: wallyging

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/16/13 04:39 PM

Roger, I was away for a few days but now back home, and as soon as the weather clears I'll get out for more runs and will log data using LogWorks3.

By "small-TPS-angle" do you mean small differences up or down from current speed? My experience was at steady throttle above 4000 rpm on level going the AFR would drop to 14.4, and I experienced just what you describe, as if the Motronic cut off the the fuel completely but then decided not to, all in a split second. Not a big "surge", but detectable. Below 4000 rpm when the AFR is at 13.8 at steady throttle I didn't notice the problem.

I'm relieved to know you observed the same pattern on your RT - it assures me I wasn't just imagining this! Any guesses about why the Motronic is programmed this way?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/16/13 06:49 PM

By small TPS angles, I mean in absolute terms. I went back and looked, and in third gear at about 4500 RPMs the throttle is only open about 7.5 degrees, Overrun Cuttoff is only 5 degrees of throttle rotation below that. The other interesting note is that the injector duration is about equal to that at idle, only 2 mS, half of which is dead time.

I also looked through other data for the 3rd gear, 4500 RPM period. It was all open loop. And the injectors pulses started dropping in duration when I dropped the throttle from 8.32 degrees to 7.68 as reported by the motronic leading to injection times dropping from 2.3 mS to 2.18 then to 1.73 mS and the AFR going from slightly rich to slightly lean.
Posted By: wallyging

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/18/13 02:07 PM

I had a chance to get out yesterday afternoon for a brief ride on the Interstate where I could get the bike into the upper gears. In 4th, 5th and 6th above 4000 rpm the AFR never got above 13.8, unlike the lower gears.

Does anyone have an idea why the Motronic apparently goes open loop (AFR 14.4) above 4000 rpm in the lower gears, but not in the upper gears? AFR stays right around 13.8 at steady speed on level going all of the time except above 4000 rpm in 1st, 2nd & 3rd!

I did observe a couple of times at higher rpm in the lower gears yesterday when the AFR dropped down to 13.8, but didn't get enough riding in to be able to replicate the conditions.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/18/13 04:52 PM

At 4000 rpm, small throttle angles, the 1150 appears to be open loop. In the higher gears because you're going faster, the engine has to produce more power and your throttle is more open. At higher throttle angles the Motronic applies closed loop control.

I've spoken to the guys at PC and asked them about the chart below which shows where they believe the Motronic is closed and open loop. According to them, it is their understanding of it but they can't say for certain that it is accurate. The dark area is closed loop and the white area is open loop.

Why BMW has designated the various areas open and closed is harder to work out but it is either because closed loop is unreliable at those RPMs and throttle angles, or because they always want either leaner or richer operating conditions that closed loop would allow.

Back when I began this project it was partly because when shifting up in the low gears, I experienced roughness when the engine was warmed up, right at the "top" of the shift. It now appears that this is an area of leaner open loop

Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/19/13 10:53 AM

I just received my LC1 so I'll install it as soon as the temperature will be ok

Someone here has a scrap R1200RT which I could buy the fuel pressure regulator (3.5 bar) He also has injectors for sale. The 1200 injectors don't have the same part # as the 1150. I was asking myself if it could be a good thing to also try 1200 injectors. Physically, they appear to be the same.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/19/13 12:41 PM

As long as the for part number is 13531465107, that will be good. I have found it difficult to compare injectors. For a while I tried to find some that had 10% more fuel flow. But I wanted: same exact physical size, same connector, same number of orifices, same spray pattern and angle and same impedance. I eventually gave up after many hours of web research and contacting suppliers.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/23/13 04:01 PM

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've been experimenting with some options for shifting lambda. A fully programmable, accurate solution, with the ability to datalog, is a Wideband O2 Sensor with a Wideband Controller like the Innovate Motorsports LC-1. (As a note, there are other manufacturers of this kind of product: Zeitronix, PLX, & wbO2. Also, I'm still working on a device that can pull a Narrowband O2 Sensor several percent to the rich side (this is looking pretty good).

The other day, I had someone build me a Wideband O2 Sensor (Bosch LSU 4.2), with a fixed-AFR shift Wideband Controller built into the cable (photo below, small controller not shown). At the moment it's not quite compatible with the Motronic MA 2.4 and it ends up running 9% richer than stock when it is set to 6% richer--still looking into it.

What was interesting was at 13.4:1-ish my bike's hot idle had increased to 1400 RPM from about 1200. I also noticed on a local trip to the Post Office I was in a higher gear (6th) than usual (5th). Like everyone, I shift by feel and was quite surprised that I was going 48 MPH at 2400 RPM.

While it's probably too rich (?), it seems the 1150RT likes its fuel.

RB

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/28/13 03:07 AM

Narrowband O2 Closed Loop Shift, progress report.

Proto 2 of the Narrowband shifter seems pretty well set for the R1150 series. I have found an interim connector supplier at a too-high-price but it does allow me to have some preproduction units built. (Proto 2 Photo below, it needs to be prettied up with black cable, etc. Also, there is no exposed chip on the production unit).

For installation: the idea on the 1150 would be to pull the tank, connect the connectors in-line with the stock O2 sensor, run the grey cable along the right side, place the O2 circuit on the air filter cover, and attach a ground to the battery.

The specs look about like this:
(S1 means setting 1)

S1 14.7:1 (stock)
S6 14.35 0.15 AFR (2% richer)
S7 14.15 0.15 AFR (4%)
S8 13.8 0.2 AFR (6%)
(S9 13.55 0.25 AFR (8%) possible setting)

There are a lot of steps to get a product to production and to market but There are some resources to work those issues, can't say yet on timing.


[/quote]
Posted By: Oldironken

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/28/13 11:14 AM

I've been following (reading but understanding only about 25%) this thread from the start, but to be honest the science of it escapes me...

What is the 60 second pitch on what this product is and what advantages it will offer over a stock setup?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/28/13 12:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Oldironken
I've been following (reading but understanding only about 25%) this thread from the start, but to be honest the science of it escapes me...

What is the 60 second pitch on what this product is and what advantages it will offer over a stock setup?


That's a very good question.

It adds a controlled amount of fuel (adjustable between 2-6%) to the entire fuel map of the motorcycle. It does this by slightly altering the reference point of the oxygen sensor. As you know, in a Closed Loop motorcycle like our Oilheads, the oxygen sensor is the final authority on fueling.

The stock sensor is set to an air-fuel ratio of 14.7:1, fairly lean. The advantage of a slightly richer mixture over stock is smoother engine operation between 2000-4000 RPM and a modest increase in torque between 2000-3000 RPM.

The reason it smooths the engine is that although we can balance air flow fairly well between the left and right sides, we can't balance fuel flow since that is set by the injectors. Adding a few percent to the fueling makes the motor much less sensitive to injector imbalances. And for reasons I don't fully know the answer to the R1150 just "likes" a little more fuel than the stock oxygen sensor mandates. Pilots would say the mixture is shifted toward the Best Power Mixture.

The Innovate Motorsports LC-1 is an excellent device for shifting the oxygen sensor and adding fuel. Those who have installed one say it has transformed the smoothness of their R1150. But the LC-1 is a project to install. The LC-1 is accurate and stable and outputs a data stream for diagnostics, whereas this device, which is based on the nightrider.com AF-XIED (but with a different software program, different electrical voltages and BMW OEM connectors) is easier to install.

There are other ways to add fuel like a Techlusion or Powercommander. They have to disable the oxygen sensor and tend to work in opposition to the Motronic. A shifted oxygen sensor works together with the Motronic to arrive at richer fueling by simply giving it a new, richer reference point.

Of course, as the fine print says, these devices are for off-road use only since they diminish the effectiveness of your catalytic converter, to the extent that 10 year-old cats do anything.

I hope this is clearer since I'll have to learn how to explain what it does more simply. I only intended to install the LC-1 for my own motorcycle but then saw some simpler possibilities that others might like to try.
Posted By: Oldironken

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/28/13 07:21 PM

OK, i followed that enough to ask some follow-up questions.

- How would this unit affect MPG? (I'm cheap when it comes to gas, my cars get 45 and 48 MPG)

- What do you think this unit will sell for?

- Do you need a Beta Tester?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/28/13 08:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Oldironken
OK, i followed that enough to ask some follow-up questions.

- How would this unit affect MPG? (I'm cheap when it comes to gas, my cars get 45 and 48 MPG)

- What do you think this unit will sell for?

- Do you need a Beta Tester?




--I believe that at a maximum, for each 2% you add to fuel, you will see a 1% reduction in gas mileage. So if you added 4%, you would at worst see 44.1 to 47 mpg. On my bike, with an LC-1 at 6% and a 21% fuel pressure increase, I got 50 MPG on the highway at a steady 60-65 MPH.

Typically, though I think it will be fuel neutral between 4-6% added fuel. The reason I believe this (and it will take many riders to know for sure) is that the low-rpm is improved enough that you will often ride in one higher gear. Not all the time, but often. This has been the experience of those who installed LC-1s.

Your mileage possibly could get worse if you up your "fun factor". It is so pleasing to crank on the throttle at 2500 RPM that you may just find yourself accelerating more often, until the novelty wears off.

--I'm talking with the manufacturing organization now and working out a price with them. I'm guessing around $150, perhaps a little more, depending how the discussions go.

--We're thinking of a pre-production run of 25 units. I think for the first 25 buyers I might offer some special terms and return rights.

This is all new to me. As I said, I didn't really plan to do this, just kind of fell into it.
Posted By: Oldironken

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/29/13 11:54 AM

Gotta love the fun factor...
Posted By: taylor1

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/29/13 12:12 PM

Roger Am anxiously waiting for your project to come to fruition. Years back I installed a Laser power chip, pulled my ccp and disconnected the O2 as per Lasers instructions. I did gain performance , but am now very curious with what you are doing as it works along with the motronic and not over rides it, if my understanding is correct. I really enjoy the tinkering, so I will gladly switch back to stock along with adding your enrichment prototype and comparing the difference. If there is a line when you roll out the first production parts , please put me close to the front!
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/29/13 02:02 PM

Originally Posted By: taylor1
Roger Am anxiously waiting for your project to come to fruition. ... but am now very curious with what you are doing as it works along with the motronic and not over rides it, if my understanding is correct. ...


taylor1, the project is grinding to conclusion with some final decisions about connections, and connectors. I'd like, if possible, for there to be either one wire (ground) or none, other than the O2 connectors.

Your understanding is right. Most solutions for adding fuel disable the O2 sensor because it enforces stock fueling and cancels any fuel additions.

By changing the O2 sensor reference point from 14.7:1 (stock) to something slightly richer, the Motronic actually becomes your ally rather than your adversary. The Motronic then cooperates and figures out how to get the extra fuel delivered, lengthening the injector pulses to do so. And last but not least, it is very precise.

I'll keep updates on this thread for a while but when we're ready, product specific info will be on a web site and this thread will just be for research and data on using O2 sensor to enrich fueling.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/29/13 08:58 PM

Today I began to work on my bike to install the LC1 and the R1200RT 3,5 bar fuel pressure regulator. I will also check the hoses in the fuel tank. For the fuel pressure regulator access, do I have to lift the tail and take out the air box ? If yes, i'm not sure i'll do this job, I've done it last year for clutch spline lubrication and I am not really tempted to do it again. I looked at the spark plug colour and since I have this bike, one side is always darker than the other. Stick coils were changed by new ones and even if I change them from one side to the other one, this situation remains the same. I seriously think that I will have to check the injectors if they deliver the same amount of fuel.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/29/13 09:09 PM

Hopefully someone else can comment on the difference in spark plug color side to side.

It is my understanding that the regulator can be removed by fiddling the fuel distribution unit out from behind the airbox but I'm told it is tricky, you have to loosen the airbox and then squirm the plastic distributor about.

WJG and Jammess each put the regulator in but I think that is optional. Adding the 3.5bar regulator only speeds the adaptation time. (You can also do with a boosterplug or equivalent.)

If I were to prioritize, I would put cleaning and checking the injector flow ahead of the regulator.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/29/13 10:14 PM

Afternoon legarem

I have heard of some installing a new fuel pressure regulator without removing the air box but I can't see how they are doing it without kinking one or both of the plastic distribution lines. Those plastic lines kink real easily & once kinked then that crease will always be there.

I do know some have cut the plastic lines then used rubber hose & clamps to piece it back together. That, I highly recommend you don't do, as fuel injection operates at a fairly high pressure.

On the spark plug color difference side to side? -- That is fairly normal & common if the bike wasn't ridden 20 miles or more then had the engine shut off with little or no idling before plug removal.

If you want good plug readings then take a new set along & ride the freeway at 75-80 mph for about 20 or 30 miles, then pull the clutch in, hit the kill switch & coast into a rest area.

Then allow the engine to cool & remove & mark the plugs for removal position. Then install the other set & ride on.

When you get home use a good glass & read the plugs (bet they look the same side to side).

You just can't get a decent spark reading if much engine idling involved & almost impossible if a cold start & cold engine idle is involved without a high speed run to clean & re-color them.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/30/13 02:33 AM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Today I began to work on my bike to install the LC1 and the R1200RT 3,5 bar fuel pressure regulator. I will also check the hoses in the fuel tank. For the fuel pressure regulator access, do I have to lift the tail and take out the air box ? If yes, i'm not sure i'll do this job, I've done it last year for clutch spline lubrication and I am not really tempted to do it again. I looked at the spark plug colour and since I have this bike, one side is always darker than the other. Stick coils were changed by new ones and even if I change them from one side to the other one, this situation remains the same. I seriously think that I will have to check the injectors if they deliver the same amount of fuel.


When you are ready to program your LC-1 please see this note: Programming the LC-1.

Also, I need to make some slight changes to the documentation on the programmed values. Let me know when you're ready if I have updated the thread by then.

RB
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/01/13 01:27 AM

Today I lifted the bike tail to reach this damn fuel pressure regulator. Don't think to get it unless you do this job. I really can't think there is any other way to do this job. Wiring the LC! will be done tomorrow. I have to wait to receive my 3.5 bar (R1200RT) fuel pressure regulator bought on eBay and finding a shop to clean and test the injectors.

I also try to find a place on the bike to install the little round meter I got with the kit. It seems that there's not enough place on the dash to find a good place for it.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/01/13 02:01 AM

Sounds like you're making headway, look forward to hearing as you progress.

There's no harm in installing the meter but it is only a snapshot of what's happening. I occasionally mount mine temporarily. When you really want a picture of what's happening connecting logworks3 and getting a datastream captured give much more insight.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/01/13 03:52 PM

Roger

How about the stability of the LC1 system ? Do we have to reset the LC! after some time or it always stays at the setting we program ?

Thanks
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/01/13 04:38 PM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Roger

How about the stability of the LC1 system ? Do we have to reset the LC! after some time or it always stays at the setting we program ?

Thanks


It seems that the LC-1 holds its programmed values very well. I've quized Innovate about this and they say it is essentially permanent but that some kinds of static could change the programming.

I have never found the values to have changed even after mounting/dismounting, recalibrating, etc.

I've also posted this answer in the install thread.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/01/13 06:15 PM

Over the past couple of weeks I've been working with the riders of a 2007 R1200GS and a 2011 R1200GSA (terryofperry) to help them with their installations of dual Innovate Motorsports LC-1s. To my knowledge they are the first to install the LC-1 systems on the R1200. I'm taking this opportunity to preview the results.

There has been a lot we've learned about the installation and there is probably a small amount of fine tuning that will get done over the next month. The R1200 required different program settings but terryofperry has a GS-911 and was able to rapidly create the data that was needed to debug the installation. He's in Georgia and I'm in chilly Massachusetts so the work was done by phone and e-mail. I'm surprised by how quickly this was accomplished. (And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that DR was there, in the background, helping.)

The bottom line is that the 2011 R1200GSA has two Innovate Motorsports LC-1s installed and fully operational.

Just as a reminder, using the LC-1s results in a fully-functional Closed Loop integration with the BMS-K and requires no Dyno tuning to make it work, it leverages the full capability of the R1200, as designed.

Below is a chart of the two LC-1s, logging AFR data simultaneously, with histograms showing distributions of each independent cylinder's combustion, as measured by the LC-1, in the exhaust stream where the Wideband O2 sensors get installed in place of the stock Narrowband unit. From the results we have so far, the BMS-K is working, without the knowledge of the shift in Lambda (that's good), delivering richer fueling, and performance improvements similar to those of the R1150 installations.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/07/13 03:06 AM

Originally Posted By: wallyging
I had a chance to get out yesterday afternoon for a brief ride on the Interstate where I could get the bike into the upper gears. In 4th, 5th and 6th above 4000 rpm the AFR never got above 13.8, unlike the lower gears.

Does anyone have an idea why the Motronic apparently goes open loop (AFR 14.4) above 4000 rpm in the lower gears, but not in the upper gears? AFR stays right around 13.8 at steady speed on level going all of the time except above 4000 rpm in 1st, 2nd & 3rd!

I did observe a couple of times at higher rpm in the lower gears yesterday when the AFR dropped down to 13.8, but didn't get enough riding in to be able to replicate the conditions.


Last week I took some data from the LC-1 to see what was happening. The conditions of the plot below were:

Idled to log closed loop AFR.
Road in second gear between 4000-5000 rpm, throttle locked
Road in first gear 4000-5000 rpm, throttle locked.

Conclusions:
Above 4000 rpm in 1st or 2nd gear, the Motronic is Open Loop even if the throttle is locked-steady. Depending on throttle angle and load, the Motronic is leaner or richer than the lambda switch point, up to 4% lean.

On my bike 4% lean is 14.4; on a stock bike it would be 15.3:1, very lean. Add in some cylinder mismatch and the leanest cylinder could get close to 16:1certainly in surging territory. This is the best measured evidence I've seen of surge-able conditions being created by the Motronic. This is much leaner than anything observed so far. As more bikes run LC-1s the Motronic will give up more secrets.

Also since the bike is Open Loop above 4K, the chart shows pretty good evidence of Adaptation being applied in the Open Loop area as the Open Loop AFRs seem well correlated to the lambda 0.94 target (13.8:1).

RB

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/19/13 02:07 PM

Although this is R1200 information, I'm adding the data to this thread because I think many readers have older and newer bikes.

Terry is in the midst of a several hundred mile trip into the mountains on his 2011 R1200GSA with dual LC-1s and has sent me hours of very impressive data that I've been going through. I'll add some of it to the thread later today or tomorrow. A few things stand out:

1) The BMS-K spends much more time in closed loop operation than the Motronic MA 2.4. After acceleration or deceleration it returns to closed loop rapidly.

2) After the Adaptation Values are reset there are very obvious imbalances between the AFR of the Left and Right cylinders. It seems to take quite a bit of time and driving for the BMS-K's full adaptation matrix to be populated. During that time the L/R imbalances persist.

3) After hours and a hundred miles or more of riding, the L/R cylinders seem nearly identically matched. The BMS-K has a very potent ability to balance the two cylinders through it Adaptation Strategy.

4) The quality and consistency if the data is high and the BMS-K is not issuing any error codes. The BMS-K is fully functioning and fueling the motorcycle at the programmed lambda of 0.93 (as Terry has programmed it).

Overall I'm very impressed by effectiveness of dual LC-1s on the R1200 and also the power of the BMS-K to manage fueling and to balance the L/R cylinders.

There are some implications: 1) if you change the intake or exhaust, the BMS-K will fuel to the set-point of the O2 sensor; eventually adapt to it fully. There could still be different exhaust resonances for aftermarket systems which would result in richness or leanness at specific engine RPMs and loads. 2) Simple attempts to alter fueling will be negated by the BMS-K over time. However, reprogramming the value of lambda through the O2 sensor are not negated. In fact the BMS-K is fully engaged in the process of shifting fueling. 3) The BMS-K with adaptive fueling and adaptive spark is so powerful that Closed Loop should not be disabled without a lot of consideration. Disconnecting the O2 sensor, as with a Power Commander, will leave the motorcycle without its most important cylinder balancing tool.

RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/19/13 09:09 PM

Here is a link to some of the fine detailed data from the R1200: Dual LC-1s.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/19/13 11:50 PM

Hi Roger

I powered my bike with the LC! installed. Everything seems to work great but I am unable to operate the software to configure it. The computer doesn't recognize the device even if usb to serial software was installed. USB device is detected by the computer ( I hate PCs to die ) but something doesn't work to detect the LC1. I tried with XP and Vista and got the same results. Can you help me

Thanks a lot
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 02:09 AM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Hi Roger

I powered my bike with the LC! installed. Everything seems to work great but I am unable to operate the software to configure it. The computer doesn't recognize the device even if usb to serial software was installed. USB device is detected by the computer ( I hate PCs to die ) but something doesn't work to detect the LC1. I tried with XP and Vista and got the same results. Can you help me

Thanks a lot


They can be finicky to get the software to connect.

Here are some instructions I posted in the install thread: LC-1 Software Sequence.

Make sure that you are connected to the correct serial plug, one is IN the other is OUT. Refer to the instructions for which is which.

Make sure you have the terminator plug installed.

When you insert either plug or cable, twist it a bit to make sure the connections are good.

If you have trouble send me a PM and I'll give you a call.
Roger
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 11:14 AM

I used your instructions sequence and after trying 10 times I stopped. I will look again at that this afternoon.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 11:47 AM

That's pretty frustrating. So I take it you've done the heater calibration and the free air calibration already?

Also where did you connect +12 V?

Last question for now, when you turn the unit on does the red LED flash for about a minute and then go steady red?

When LM Programmer 3.29 starts it often issues me a message saying it won't connect, but then after another 15-20 seconds it does.

If you want me to call you let me know.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 11:59 AM

Originally Posted By: EKinOR;21228335
Any updates on the plug and play LC1 (almost) equivalent? I'm either going to buy an LC1 or your new plug and play device, but I'd rather buy something plug and play.

Any updates are appreciated!


Back a couple of pages ago I posted a short update, [url="http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21060343&postcount=168"]here[/url]. The Proto 2 photo is below, a product for all R1150s, R1100S and K-bikes as well--any BMW that is fueled by a Motronic MA 2.4.

The key pieces are the two BMW OEM connectors for which we now have a supply, you can see them in the photo. The connectors are what make it plug 'n play. Our manufacturing subcontractor has begun production on the first 25 units. Then after we've built the first couple dozen, we will gear production for a higher volume. Sometime in the next month I'll launch a web site that will allow the product to be delivered, the web site will be simple at first.

Because I also have the LC-1 installed that the same time I can compare Proto 2 to the gold-standard LC-1. For the past week, I've continued to ride Proto 2 which works very well. This weekend I'll be removing Proto 2 from my bike and sending it to a beta-rider.

I've also built an R1100, Motronic MA 2.2 proto which I'll post later this morning.

So progress is good, I'm evaluating thoroughly so that when we turn on production buyers will be able to expect prompt delivery.

Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 12:29 PM

Everything is connected as your published schematic

The led is first flashing then after some time it stays red

No I didn't do free air calibration and heater calibration. I thought it was optional. Do I really have to do it ? I'm not tempted to take out the gas tank again and clipping the tie wraps.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 01:06 PM

You don't have to pull the tank unless it covers your LC-1.

First, let me ask, where did you connect +12V?


Here are some thoughts from Terry who also had some startup problems with the LC-1 software.

I am familiar with the USB to Serial communication problems so I will give my thoughts to Legarem when I have a chance. XP and Vista can be difficult regarding the drivers. I have two different USB to Serial adapters, one will work on certain programs and not others while the other works on another program even with Windows 7, 32 or 64 bit. I can use only one manufacturer with the Logworks strange as it seems. Stranger still is I need to use a certain usb port although I have several. Plugging into a different port and it is not recognized. I also had to go to the manufacturers website and pull down a specific driver. Then there is the sequence issue you have posted, allowing about 15 seconds between powering up the bike to opening the software. I do not know how familiar he is with device manager but that can be a good troubleshooting step.



I dont know if your set up does this but after I turn off the key my LC-1 LED lights stay powered from the heater + for about 5-7 seconds and I need to wait until they go out before unplugging or the programming may not take.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
You don't have to pull the tank unless it covers your LC-1.
First, let me ask, where did you connect +12V?


12 volts supply is taken from the White +12V on the old oxygen sensor wire. The other white (ground) is unused.

My LC1 is under the tank so the new oxygen sensor has the same wire path as the old O2 sensor.

Yes, i'm unfamiliar with device manager because i'm a Mac user.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 07:24 PM

So in order to communicate with the LC-1, you have to have your motor running. And your ground is two wires running to the battery?

Assuming that your motor is running while you're trying to connect I think you should at least do a heater calibration which means disconnecting the LSU 4.2 from the LC-1.

Although their documentation doesn't say so, Jammess had a problem with his unit and the Innovate Motorsport people told him to do a heater/free air calibration.

Terry has found out that some Serial to USB cables only work with some serial devices.

Mine's been finicky at times but always works. Two other guys have had no Serial to USB issues.

I guess if it were me, I'd bite the bullet, do the heater and free air cal, or find another serial to usb cable. The one I (randomly) bought is a Trendnet TU-S9.

BTW, a guy in Denmark just finished an install on an F800S. Turned it on, programmed it and went for a ride. But even for him he said the following: "I actually managed to finish the installation work on the bike - only a faulty USB cable and a missing driver for the USB to Serial converter took some time to figure out."

RB
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 08:24 PM

Problem is solved

After googling, I found many peoples having the same problem with their Usb to serial adaptor. I installed this software which everybody seems satisfied and it worked at the first time.

http://www.winchiphead.com/download/CH341/CH341SER.ZIP

I used custom value of 13.7

As it is now raining with melt snow, I can't try the bike.

I'll publish the values it gave with this setting.

Thanks again for your help.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 08:54 PM

Here is a graph picture
Does it seems to work correctly. The setting is 13.7
Will I have to do a free air and heater cal ?

Attached File
m.jpg  (73 downloads)
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 09:00 PM

The picture doesn't seems to work after downloading it

Here are the values I got

1 volt at AFR 13.12 lambda .958
0.100 volt at AFR 13.99 lambda 1.022
Posted By: chrisolson

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 09:09 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Back a couple of pages ago I posted a short update ... a product for all R1150s, R1100S and K-bikes as well--any BMW that is fueled by a Motronic MA 2.4.


Roger, any speculation of how beneficial (or not) the device might be for an '02 K1200RS ?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 09:11 PM

I can't understand what you're seeing from the post. Please email the pictures to me or an LC-1 log file at pametfisher@hotmail.com
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 09:16 PM

Originally Posted By: chrisolson
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Back a couple of pages ago I posted a short update ... a product for all R1150s, R1100S and K-bikes as well--any BMW that is fueled by a Motronic MA 2.4.


Roger, any speculation of how beneficial (or not) the device might be for an '02 K1200RS ?


I've got a lot of irons in the fire at the moment but I'm pretty sure that it would work about he same for your K1200RS.

At this moment we have 4 LC-1s install on 1150s, twin and single spark, GS and RT. It is also installed on two R1200s and an F800S.

It will richen the mixture on your bike by a programmable amount of your choosing. The question then becomes will the K respond as favorably to the enrichment--bet it does.
RB
Posted By: chrisolson

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/20/13 09:51 PM

About what I figured. In line then for a unit when available.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/21/13 11:58 AM

Originally Posted By: chrisolson
About what I figured. In line then for a unit when available.


What's involved in getting access to the O2 connector on your bike?
Posted By: chrisolson

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/21/13 02:30 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Originally Posted By: chrisolson
About what I figured. In line then for a unit when available.

What's involved in getting access to the O2 connector on your bike?

I assume you want to see the style of connector, yes? I'm not where I can check right now, but found this on ebay ... Its an '01 but I believe the '02 is the same
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/21/13 05:01 PM

The connectors are the same, which is good. I was more interested in how much dissassembly is required to get to it.
Posted By: chrisolson

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/21/13 06:46 PM

Ahhh .... never having traced it, don't know. Difficult or not, still count me in for a unit. smile The bike and I are not currently in the same city, so it might be next weekend before I can report back.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/24/13 01:24 PM

Although I'm posting this in the Oilhead forum, I am doing so because it further shows the benefits of installing something like an LC-1 on a another model of motorcycle. In this case it was a friend's 2007 F800S. We began discussing the project about a month ago and it is now complete. Most of the installation took place over about a week.

The F800S has a BMS-K the same as Terry's installation last month on the R1200GSA. The same software settings worked but rather than a single load resistor to satisfy the BMS-K that an O2 sensor was installed, seven 1/4 watt 1000 ohm resistors were installed in parallel which you can see in the box below(he's a very neat craftsman) . His reasoning was that this would save space and slightly warm the box insides to keep it dry.

There are also two relays added inside the box. The first was a relay to switch the power, rather than use the O2 sensor Heater+. The second was a relay controlled by a panel switch to allow selection between the LC-1's two analog outputs. He has one setting at lambda 1.00 (14.7:1, stock) and a second setting at lambda 0.94 (13.8:1, 6% richer). This was a clever idea and he can switch mixture on the fly. (He comments on below.)



Hi Roger,

I managed to finish the installation work on the bike - only a faulty USB cable and a missing driver for the USB to Serial converter took some time to figure out.

And the first road tests (100 km today) have been really promising.

First, I'm happy and proud that everything worked in the first attempt.
--Function is easy to check with out lifting the seat to see the status led - what you do is to ride the bike at a steady speed, fix the throttle, read the current fuel consumption in the extended dashboard display, and flick the switch on. Two seconds later, the fuel consumption has stabilized it self at a slightly higher level.

--Your calceulations were spot on: 4,4 l/100 km became 4,7 l and 3,3 l/100 km became 3,5 l when the richer mode was switched on. I know the dashboard reading is not 100% accurate and there's only one digit after the comma, but both tests are indicating a 6% increase in fuel consumption - or something close to that on a spot measurement.

--So I'm not seeing a reduction in fuel consumption like you do, but it may be related to the non-ethanol fuel we got over here? (Editor's Note: I believe I get about the same fuel mileage overall at 6% richer due to being in one higher gear much of the time.)

The F800 was never surging badly at constant speed, but with the richer mixture, it's definitely running smoother and feels stronger in all closed loop conditions. Quite funny actually, because now you can really feel how hard the lean burning engine was [struggling] before.

I would like to take the bike to a Dyno at some point to have a performance run on both settings to compare them. My butt feeling says that the engine is a couple of horses stronger all the way from 3500 RPM to redline, and the torque dip around 4000 RPM seems to be gone. But a dyno run will tell if my butt is right.

So it seems that your recommendation of the LC-1 complimenting my BoosterPlug installation very nicelyOpen & Closed Loop. It's a real pleasure to ride the bike now with balanced richer fueling.

This setup is a keeper and is staying on my bike, and I'm happy that I have the capability to chose between fuel saving mode for cruising and power/fun mode for backroads and mountain riding.

I'm taking the bike to a rally tomorrow that will involve 70-80 km backroad riding, so I will get a good chance to test the LC-1 further.

Please accept my compliments for a bright idea and thanks for sharing it with me.

All the best.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/26/13 02:15 AM

R1100 Prototype Lambda plug n play device.

Today I got out for a test ride with an R1100 prototype device. It's appearance is just like the R1150 verson except the connectors are different so I built up it up with salvaged R1100 connectors on either end. Then I took a used R1100 (thimble style) O2 sensor, lambda element grounded to the case, different from the R1150 style, and installed the R1100 O2 sensor in my R1150RT's second O2 bung.

Lastly I built an adapter cable to convert the R1100 style output connector to the R1150 connector. So the build-up was:

R1100 O2 sensor, connecting to:
R1100 Proto lambda device with R1100 connectors on either end, connecting to:
R1100 to R1150 connector cable so that I could plug it into my R1150

It worked as well as the R1150 version, maybe a little better. I believe that is due to the R1100 O2 sensor having a more powerful heater (guess?). There was no discernable temperature effect, meaning it was less sensitive to exhaust temperature than the R1150 sensor.

It works well enough now that I will send it to a few R1100 owners soon for their feedback.

The R1100 OEM connectors are decades old. It may be that the package will be a lambda shift device and a new R1100 O2 sensor, as a way of getting the needed OEM connector. It will add to the cost but many R1100 O2 sensors are very old and would probably benefit from replacement.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/03/13 12:14 PM

Here another LC-1 install on a GS. The idle AFR variation he refers to was due to misadjust throttle stops. The throttle stop issue might not have been apparent for a while and it preceded the LC-1 install. One of the nice benefits here is that the constant AFR monitoring is a terrific diagnostic tool.


Originally Posted By: FlipJr;21265716
I've been following your threads extensively regarding the wideband 02 sensor installation on your R1150RT. All the data and discussion you posted in the forum really got me interested so I went ahead and got the LC-1 kit for my '02 R1150GS.

Installed it on Sunday, everything worked as planned. I put the 14.2 AFR tune you had posted on the installation guide in, adjusted the TB's for idle and balance again (idle was at like 1500 after the bike warmed up as it should). Today I took it out for an extended ride, about 250 miles.

WHAT A DIFFERENCE.

Acceleration across the board is better. Even starting out in first gear, the bike doesn't feel like it wants to stall below 1700 RPM. I can easily use one higher gear in all my driving, and there's no more pinging if I crack the throttle at low RPM.

Cruising at 75 mph was so much more enjoyable as well. The buzzing in the hand grips was drastically reduced, and the throttle seems a lot more forgiving. Before the mod, the throttle was so sensitive it was like a balancing act between accelerating and decelerating, very hard to maintain a set speed (a lot of people call this surging, maybe, or lack of throttle finesse. It's hard to keep steady even with everything setup perfect ). After the mod, I feel that the throttle is more forgiving, much easier to control. Much more like my old R65 used to handle.

I just wanted to say thanks for all your hard work and dedication to this project! It made the install a breeze.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/08/13 01:17 AM

I installed a LC1 to my R1150Rt and I will never return with the bike in stock condition. With the LC1 you discover the virtues of the boxer motor. Torque is there and so you can drive the bike in 6 th at 2500rpm and when you open the throttle, it can rev without downshifting. Power is becoming smooth and torquey like it should be with this kind of motor. If you want to ride hard, the motor revs fast and without any hesitation. One word to describe the modified bike is: FUN

I want to thank Roger a lot for the research done and for the great help he gave me to make this thing work. It is fairly easy to install but the LC1 software and the serial port to USB port adaptor software gave me some headache.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/08/13 01:53 AM

Hello Legarem,
I can confirm everything you say about performance after install of the LC-1. I get the same results as you with my '04 R1150RT. Never was comfortable using 6th gear until the LC-1 and that alone is worth it. What AFR are you using? I have mine set at 13.5:1 and I hesitate to change from 13.5 because I can't believe the performance could ever be better. I did have my injectors cleaned and flow tested and that was like frosting on the cake. My bike has never run better in its 9 years of life. Before the LC-1 I was thinking about selling but not anymore. The difference is just amazing.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/08/13 02:14 AM

Hi James

My injectors were checked and there was 1cc of difference during doing a test at 35 psi so they did not clean them. With the LC1 software, I had some difficulties to adjust it by the AFR. I adjusted it by the advanced method settled at 0.92. I think is is doing 13.5. I also use a 3.5 bar fuel regulator coming from a R1200RT. This fuel reg. replacement was the worst job to do with the air box we have to move. Really not funny !
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/08/13 04:38 AM

Hi Legarem,
Yes, I set my AFR with Lambda numbers as you did. I also have the 3.5 BAR fuel pressure regulator but my installation was simple because a couple years ago I got really pissed off at my ABS brakes so I removed all traces of the system including pressure modulator or whatever they call it (can't remember now) so there was plenty of room to work. My injectors were in dire need of cleaning so I really noticed an improvement in engine smoothness. I could actually see more clarity in the rear view mirrors. It only took 9 years and help from Roger for me to finally end up with the kind of motorcycle I thought I paid for. But, all is certainly well now. clap
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/08/13 12:13 PM

While you guys are talking about what AFR to run I'll mention Terry's experience on his 2011 R1200GSA. He started at lambda 0.96 and got a good improvement. Then over the course a month he tweaked it from there to 0.91 (9% richer) in small steps. It becomes addictive. Terry runs stock fuel pressure but already had a BoosterPlug.

Another guy with a 2006 1200GS runs 0.94 now, no FP boost or BoosterPlug. I was looking at his AFR plots and its clear his bike has built up a good set of adaptation values because the data looks the same as Terry's.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/08/13 05:04 PM

Hi Roger,
A target lambda of .91 works out to an AFR of 13.4 which is close to the 13.5 I use so doubt I could tell much difference and I'm afraid to go much richer for fear of carbon build up that and you can't really argue with success.

Wish we knew more about the early 2.2 Motronic and if it has adaptability capability as I am thinking about an LC-1 for my '94 RSL. My '94 runs and performs just about perfect as it is with the ccp jumper cut and a CO Pot installed but I can't help but wonder. Have any of your converts installed an LC-1 on the early oilhead?
Posted By: terryofperry

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/08/13 07:23 PM

I borrowed Roger's thread for a moment to post the following in the Camhead section:

After following Rogers wideband O2 project and researching many alternatives, I have completed an install of dual wideband controllers on my 2011 R 1200 GSA. I have logged many hours of data over a few thousand miles both in the mountains (HeleNBack 2013) and in the flatlands of Central Georgia. I feel I finally have enough information to comment as some have requested.
The install was completed a few days before HeleNBack. It went very well due to Rogers previous work and tremendous help by e-mail as well as phone.

We started with conservative settings, progressing in small increments based on data Roger was seeing and how I felt the bike was responding. Each day leading up to HeleNBack 2013 I would add 1% to 2% of fuel. I left for Helen with a setting of 0.93 Lambda (13.67/1 A/F R) in one switch position and 0.96 Lambda (14.1/1 A/F R) in the other. I logged data throughout the day, each night I would send Roger the data from the day to analyze and recommend changes. The bike performed very, very well.

Would I do it again? Yes, without a doubt. Does it transform the Big Pig into an S 1000 RR? No. The Camhead 1200s run pretty good out of the box, add some fuel and they are wonderful to ride. The throttle is smoother, the motor response to throttle change is more linear, both on accel and decel, less hesitation, very responsive to small inputs. Adding fuel results in a cooler exhaust, cooler valve face, longer lived motor. The biggest change is in the higher gears. I can stay there a little longer without lugging the motor. Or shift up a little sooner with pulling power available. Based on my research and some knowledge of motors I expected some of these changes, one I did not expect was the ease with which it starts. Cold, warm, or at temperature it fires right up where before it did not. Upon returning I continued the programming changes. I am now at 0.91 Lambda (13.38 A/F R). The roll on power in 6th gear from 60 to 95 is surprisingly much stronger. Although best power may be down around 12.8 +/- I am looking for best ride-ability, best throttle response, best feel for me, not racetrack performance. I am very pleased where we are now.

Fuel mileage is still up in the air. I keep a record of every drop of fuel, I have information from Little Switzerland, HeleNBack 2012, and F.A.R.T. before the LC-1 install. Preliminary tabulations from HeleNBack 2013 indicate two tanks got less mileage than a year ago, 2 tanks got slightly more. Too many variables to reach an accurate conclusion. I will monitor it in the flatlands here and have a better idea but I gotta say it is a lot more fun to ride.

Do I recommend it? It works through the entire RPM range, open loop and closed, plays very well with the BMSK ECU. For those wanting to log data, program precise control, and do not mind the wiring, it is ideal. My install and set up went extremely well because Roger knows what he is doing. The fact we spoke the same language with regard to the data and the motor helped the process proceed swiftly. Rogers groundwork has resulted in bikes running very well quickly. Most settings have been tested, the 1150, 1200, and now an F 800 are pretty much good to go. If you want all of the benefits without the wiring involvement I would recommend the device Roger is working on. It will do everything the LC-1 will except log data, not really necessary now. I have owned a Techlusion, I have a lot of experience with the Power Commander, I have a Boosterplug device, the O2 sensor device is the correct way to go about it. Tell the ECU what you want and let it accomplish the task.

Terry
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/11/13 12:23 PM

When I look at the design of the air box, it seems that the air intake is quite small, I was wondering with the LC! if I could take out the intake snorkel to have more air for the motor. The LC1 with the Motronic should adjust the correct AFR with more air. Do someone tried it ?
Posted By: terryofperry

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/11/13 01:49 PM

Legarem

Someone more knowledgeable will have a better answer but our motor is not using all of the air available in the air box now. Without forced induction only so much air can get in the combustion chamber. It would be very evident if the motor was starving for air. You can try it, won't hurt anything and I am interested in the results.

Terry
Posted By: Boffin

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/11/13 08:34 PM

Originally Posted By: legarem
When I look at the design of the air box, it seems that the air intake is quite small, I was wondering with the LC! if I could take out the intake snorkel to have more air for the motor. The LC1 with the Motronic should adjust the correct AFR with more air. Do someone tried it ?

I can't find the link, but in the past someone did some intake filter tests on a R1100RT to investigate if high-flow filters would help the RT. The bike was dyno tested in various filter configurations - with the filter more than half-covered in food wrap there was _no_ reduction in power from the engine.
So, in short, these bikes are not in any way intake restricted. (except that the intake tracts can be slightly improved, but the real restriction lies in the exhaust ports - to about 2-3% extra power - or no noticeable difference without a dyno)

Andy
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/12/13 01:54 AM

Hi Andy

If the bike is in stock condition I don't think that opening the air filter box will give extra power but with a LC1 adjusted art 13.5:1 will it be the same ?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/12/13 10:49 AM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Hi Andy

If the bike is in stock condition I don't think that opening the air filter box will give extra power but with a LC1 adjusted art 13.5:1 will it be the same ?


AFR setting doesn't effect that reasoning. For most if your driving adding air, if you find a way, only means you use less throttleunless you're at WOT a lot of the time.

I tend to agree with Terry and Andy, you won't be able to get much more air into the engine and if you did, the only place it would matter is between 70-80 degrees throttle. At full throttle, even with your stock sensor, there was already enough fuel (At 50-80 degrees throttle, the AFR is between 12.5 and 13:1 stock.)

It's my believe that if you added some kind of forced air system to boost air pressure, that would mean smaller throttle angles at cruise, if anything detracting from engine smoothness.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/14/13 09:17 PM

We've been running some tests with the LC-1 and my GS-911 on Wally's bike. I've learned about several differences on the R1150GS single-spark Motronic. The important differences are that the ECU's microprocessor seems slower, it's data acquisition seems less frequent, and the GS locates its O2 sensor in a place that seems to have less air flow. As a result, at regular idle, the Closed Loop period is a VERY slow 4 to 5 seconds. One to two seconds would be the norm.

Other than that, the LC-1 and single-spark Motronic MA 2.4 play very well together. Here is a beautifully adapted cold start sequence with some notations.

RB

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/20/13 03:05 AM

Thought I'd provide some updates on what's been going on lately.

There are three beta devices circling their way around the US and Canadar1100, R1150s. All are progressing very well.

I took delivery of an R1200 wiring harness and harvested 4 female O2 connectors so I can build beta units for R1200s and F800s soon.

For the Narrowband device I expect to get production approval units this week.

On My R1150RT with LC-1
I added a small switch to my lc-1 connector box. The switch has three positions: off (so I can run open loop when I want), connect to LC-1 analog 1, and connect to LC-1 analog 2 (analog 2 is usually for the gauge but can be programmed like analog 1). The switch connects to the black (O2+) wire in the O2 connector cable. This allows me to do an a/b comparison of two different mixtures with just a switch.

I rode at lambda=1 which is 14.7:1, I'm doing it for comparison testing. I'll also try a very lean setting soon like 16.2:1 to measure economy.

Here is an LC-1 report from a recent self-done implementation.

"I'm really amazed by the performance of the motor with the LC-1. Peoples who don't try it are lacking something. I loved the old BMW powered with carburated motors because they had torque. Now with the LC-1 I have this feeling. Today I went for a high speed ride and I would be surprised to look at the time required to do 1/4 of miles. The motor revs fastly with authority. I'm in love with my bike.

My AFR is settled at 0.925 and 0.915.

The only drawback is idling which seems overly rich when it is cold and with the fast idle. The motor doesn't like to be kept at idle when cold because after some time it doesn't idle smoothly until I open the throttle to rev the bike. As stated I suspect overly rich mixture when cold and the exhaust gas stinks.

Thanks a lot for everything."
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/29/13 07:09 PM

I wanted to update the thread with a status report. The narrowband-shifting device manufacturer continues to make progress. Below is a photo of the device, with a generic connector to which a model-specific (R1100, R1150, R1200, F800) cable harness with OEM connectors gets attached. The installation procedure will be: plug in the OEM connectors (and connect a ground wire in some cases).

Inside the "black box" is a small data acquistion and digital processor that intercepts the stock signal and sends a modified version to the Motronic.

There should be a production version with a small first run in about a month. This probably seems like a slow process but the manufacturer is handling this in a professional manner, which takes time.

Posted By: chrisolson

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/30/13 01:08 AM

Cool ! Looking forward to its general availability.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/31/13 11:15 AM

Really nice work Roger

Will you have your own software to program it or you will use LC-1 software ?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/31/13 01:04 PM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Really nice work Roger

Will you have your own software to program it or you will use LC-1 software ?


Good question. The narrowband-shifting device needs no programming.

AFR (lambda) is set by a small rotary dial, #2 in the product photo. If you want 14.1:1 you turn the dial to setting 6 which is confirmed by the yellow LED, #4.

Here is a brief summary of the various options for shifting Closed Loop air-to-fuel ratio (AFR):

All solutions maintain full Motronic or BMSK function, and in the case of BMSK, trip computer accuracy.

1) Device to shift stock Narrowband sensor. The benefits are:
-Lowest cost solution.
-Simplest to install.
-Easiest to switch back to stock setting.
-Adjustable without computer
-Narrowband O2 sensor most durable (but at 10 - 20 years, your's may need to be replaced
Limitations: Exact AFR sensitive to exhaust temperature.

2. Dual fixed-AFR Wideband Sensor
-Accuracy and stability of AFR equal to LC-1.
-Installation requires a simple replacement of stock sensor.
-Less costly than LC-1 plug & play kit.
-No programming or adjustment required (or possible)
Limitations: No data reporting function as with LC-1

3. Innovate LC-1 Plug & Play Kit
-Easier to install than off-the-shelf LC-1
-Dual AFR channels, user programmable, optional AFR gauge.
-Second channel can be set leaner than stock for Best Economy or very rich for Best Power.
-Comes calibrated and pre-programmed.
-Includes OEM connectors.
-Fully user programmable from 12.5:1 to 16.2:1
-Datalogging diagnostic capability and software package.
-Can be periodically calibrated for precision AFR.
Limitations: None
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/01/13 02:18 PM

Roger

I hope you'll have great success with the sales of your kit.

I'm sure anybody who will buy your kit will have a lot of service when they will buy your kit.

As my LC-1 O2 sensor failed, I had to use my bike in open mode with a Booster plug. I missed a lot my programmable AFR. Bikers who are using boxer equipped with O2 sensor should use programmed AFR kits because they really don't know what they are missing.

Boxers should make torque and this is the way to make them torquier and funnier to ride.

Thank you very much for all the informations done in this thread.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/03/13 02:24 PM

About a month ago I shipped a narrowband-O2-device to an owner of a well tuned stock R1100RT, in Vancouver. Over the past month he put about 4000 miles on the beta-device. Here is a report he posted on another board. In addition I would add that these are also the results one would expect if the lambda shift had been made with an LC-1.


Originally Posted By: HW
Narrow Band O2 Sensor Shift Device Beta Test Report

June 2, 2013, prepared by Happy Wanderer

I?ve returned from a 4,000+ mile beta test of Roger04RT?s narrowband O2 sensor shifting device on my 2000 R1100RT. Roger put one together for the 1100RT that was plug and play for beta testing purposes. Installation involved removing the right side fairing panel, unplugging the O2 sensor connector and plugging his device in series with existing connectors. Unlike the 1150 there is no ground wire required and installing it couldn?t be simpler. The device itself was placed under my seat on top of the air box for easy access. A 2mm hex tool, a few cable ties, resetting the ECU and about an hour is all that is required. The unit was installed on a well tuned stock bike known to be surging and averaging ~41 miles per US gallon.
I did some initial local testing initially at both recommended test settings which were:
F6 = 14.15 / 1 AFR or 4% enrichment
F7 = 13.8 / 1 AFR or 6% enrichment
Both settings produce noticeable changes and improvements. Initially I found F7 produced better results but long distance testing proved that F6 gave a better balance of performance and mileage improvements once adaptation by the ECU was allowed to complete.

Riding Observations:
- The first thing I noticed was in low gears (1, 2, and 3). Steady throttle in these gears typically produce a lot of annoying ?hunting? or surging which results in a jerky ride. This was smoothed out significantly with the device.
- Roll on throttle performance is greatly improved especially in the higher gears. The wonderful thing about this is that you can put through those small towns in 4th or even 5th gear without the usual complaints from a big twin engine. Goodbye jerky, surging ride through small towns.
- Available torque at low speeds in the higher gears is also much better. This allows you to slow down without shifting gears and then pull away again in a smooth controlled fashion. I normally downshift at around 3,000 RPM but found myself and bike quite comfortable down at 2,000 and even lower in some cases. When I noticed this I was quite surprised so I went riding around some back streets where traffic was light to nonexistent and tried it again several times. There is definitely a lot more smooth acceleration power available at low RPM. No pinging, no complaint from the engine at all, it just rolls on and away you go.
- The transition from on and off throttle is also smoother. This is great when adjusting your speed in traffic. The throttle is less snatchy.
- The fuel cutoff lurch you feel on an 1100 around 1500 to 1700 RPM as you come to a stop in gear is less pronounced. Still there but not as harsh.
Mileage Data:
My former average was 41 mpg. The data I collected over 4,000+ miles of riding shows it is now 44.6 mpg or 2.4% better on average.
Noteworthy points in the data: (see table below)
- Change in performance from the 7 setting to the leaner 6 setting
- Mileage improving over time during the first several days (Motronic 2.2 ECU adapting)
- Performance at high altitude desert conditions (Utah and Arizona) is just excellent.

To summarize the riding test I would say my bike is much happier running a slightly richer mixture. And happy bike = happy wanderer. J Although the surging is not completely gone as has been experienced and documented on the 1150 it is reduced to a much more manageable level. I am highly suspicious that this is due to my fuel injectors not being perfectly matched but having them cleaned again and re tested will have to wait until much later in the riding season or perhaps when I am gone on one of the other bikes for a couple of weeks!
Oh and one more important comment. I have to remove the beta and send it back to Roger now?
And I am NOT happy about that one bit!
HW




Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/03/13 03:04 PM

I agree 100%. '04 R1150RT with LC-1 installed, fuel injectors cleaned and balanced.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/04/13 08:59 PM

Part 1 of 4

Earlier in this thread, Terry posted on the installation of dual LC-1s on his 2011 R1200GSA. Since that time he's ridden thousands of miles but importantly, has continued to log air-to-fuel ratio (AFR) and engine data by using the LC-1s and a GS-911 in tandem. I've digested several of his test rides into four charts that I'll explain in four posts. The BMSK has some very good features that solve problems of the Motronic MA 2.2 and 2.4.

R1100s and R1150s use two generations (or three if you include dual-spark) of Motronics for controlling spark timing and fueling. Each of those systems works with one O2 sensor that is placed in a spot where it measures the average oxygen content of the exhaust. The R1200 has two O2 sensors (and knock sensing) which supply additional data to its engine control unit called the BMSK.

On an R1200, the BMSK manages two mostly independent Closed Loop programs. This means that it can nearly perfectly balance the left and right cylinders. This is an important feature that essentially eliminates surging. On 1100/1150s we meticulously balance air with TB syncs and valve adjustments but have to ignore fuel imbalances. Not so on the 1200, using its two O2 sensors it can easily equalize fuel, keeping left/right power (air plus fuel) equalno surging, and a smoother engine. On 1100/1150s your choices are to clean and measure your injectors for balance or to add a few percent more fuel so that all the oxygen gets burned, making fuel imbalances less important, diminishing surging and making the engine smoother.

Although this is an Oilhead forum I feel that some of the insights from the R1200 will be beneficial to R1150 and R1100 riders too. So to that end Terry disconnected one of this two O2 sensors, reset his BMSK so we could see what things look like before Adaptation cleans-up the left/right cylinder differences and then reconnected the O2 and watched what happened (next post). He also made a short test ride with an O2 sensor disconnected to see what happened when an O2 failed.

One O2 Disconnected, BMSK Reset, Cold Start
Using the LC-1s, Terry's AFR has been programmed 7% rich and therefore his AFR runs around 13.6:1. In the left-hand LC-1 chart below take a look at the connected cylinder's AFR (purple line). One of the first things you can see is that the R1200 gets into Closed Loop operation very fast, only needing about 20 seconds or so (my 2004 RT takes a few minutes to warm enough to run Closed Loop). If you look very closely at the chart there is a difference between the purple and black lines at startup--about 4% AFR difference. Terry's bike is well tuned (TB Balanced and Valves) so I believe is the natural AFR imbalance of his motorcycle, a combination of a small fuel and a small air imbalance. This natural imbalance is interesting because it could easily exist on any 1100/1150, we just wouldn't know it.

The cylinder without an O2 is running pretty rich, in part because he has an air-temperature shift device adding 6% and in part because there is a slowly declining warmup enrichment (notice the injection time coming down), but also because without an O2 on one cylinder the BMSK seems to be leaving a margin of error toward the rich.

Looking on the right hand chart, which is GS-911 data over the same time period as the LC-1 chart on the left, you can see the base injection time (blue line). When cold the pulses are about 4.5 mS long and within 20-30 seconds they have been reduced to 2.5 mS. The same base time is used for both cylinders but there are also two LCFs (Lambda Correction Factors), one for each cylinder. Looking at the red line you can see that the Closed Loop program which creates the LCFs reduces the fueling to about 82% of the base time. The disconnect cylinder doesn't have any way to calculate an LCF and it stays at 100% and that cylinder remains rich.

The key takeaways here are: fast warm-up with O2 connected, 4% difference between the cylinders with no Closed Loop correction and the LCFs which are the short term Adaptation Values that I've mentioned before in this thread. Later there will be some charts showing long term Adaptation. You can also see what's going to happen in the short term if you lose an O2 sensor.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/05/13 01:53 PM

Part 2 of 4

In Part 1 we saw the 4% initial imbalance between the left and right cylinders of Terry's 2011 R1200GSA and then what happened in Open Loop with only one of the O2 sensors attached. The LCFs (lambda control factors) also showed how the BMS-K calculates its Adaptation Values. Next is how the injection time and both LCFs interact when the second O2 sensor is reconnected.

Reconnected #2 oxygen sensor
Looking at the lefthand side of the first chart below, at about 9:02 (point labeled 1) the second oxygen sensor is reconnected. It only takes about 15 seconds for the BMSK to smoothly compute the second cylinder LCF and lock Closed Loop, and in the process make a 14% fueling correction. If you look closely at the LCFs on the righthand side, they are 8% apart, more than immediately after being reset (about 4% at the start of the chart in post 1 on this topic). I don't have an explanation for this difference.

At point 2, the throttle is blipped, the BMSK sets both LCFs to 1.00 (it's in Open Loop mode) and you can see that the AFRs both go rich, but one is richer and the richness lasts longer. Later, when the BMSK has fully adapted, I'll show that both cylinders are nearly perfectly AFR equalized. The BMSK is simply amazing.




Looking at the chart below, the lefthand LCF graph is the same as above, but the righthand graph shows what's happening with the idle stepper motors (which seem to run in sync in the data I have on hand). What the BMSK does next, knowing that it has both O2s running, is to begin normalizing other aspects of its operation. First notice in the LCF graph on the left that both LCFs head together several percent richer. Since almost everything else has stayed the same (spark timing, RPM and TPS), why is the BMSK Closed Loop routine requiring more fuel (as seen in the LCF trend upward)?

The simple answer is that just before connecting the second O2 sensor, the average of the two LCFs was 0.92 (1.00 vs 0.84). After the second O2 is plugged and its LCF has adjusted, the average LCF (on the right of the chart) is 0.86, less fuel on average to hold the idle at around 1150.

The other interesting thing going on is that the idle stepper motor value is dropping. It looks like when both cylinders are balanced by the Closed Loop programs, both O2 sensors running, it takes less fuel (average LCF lower) and less air (idle motors lower).

So there's the Cold Start sequence and the role of O2 sensors, idle stepper motors and the BMSK's symphonic handling of its sensors and the LCFs (Adaptations). I believe that this is relevant to Motronic MA 2.2 and 2.4s (1100s/1150s) because there are things like this going on inside those ECUs as well. I hope this helps to illustrate the types of processes in Closed Loop that are more visible on the BMSK.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/05/13 02:23 PM

Part 3 of 4

Test Ride on One O2 Sensor
On one of the tests, Terry left the cylinder 2 O2 sensor disconnect and went out for a ride to see what would happen. He told me that he barely made it out of the driveway the bike was running so roughly. And that's no surprise, one of his cylinders was in Closed Loop and running an AFR of 13.65:1 and the other was Open Loop and running and AFR of 11.4:1, hugely richer.

He persevered though and got out for about 10 minutes of mismatched torture before he reconnected cylinder two's O2 sensor.

The chart below shows about 6 minutes of that ride. It is remarkable. If you look closely, you can see that cylinder two's Open Loop fueling starts to converge towards Cylinder one's Closed Loop fueling. How is that happening? I can't be 100% certain without more tests but it seems pretty clear that the BMSK is using data from cylinder one's Closed Loop to estimate the fueling needed by cylinder 2. Wow!

A more important thing to note is the enormous variation in fueling when there is no O2 sensor. Cylinder one's fueling is tight to 13.65:1 whereas cylinder two's fueling varies grossly between 11.4 and 13.65. I saw this exact behavior on the R1150's Motronic and expect it would be the same on R1100s (except when an Open Loop coding plug was used). This certainly appears to be BMW/Bosch's Limp Home fueling strategy--significantly vary the mixture and hope that the catalytic converter gathers some oxygen during the lean peaks so it can function at times.

Running one cylinder with O2 and one without turned out to be a great way to show what happens when you run BMW motorcycles in Open Loop. There is a huge takeaway here: If you disconnect the O2 sensors and add a Power Commander V, you will run on the Limp Home fueling pattern and lose all the features that I've shown in these first three posts.

On the 1100s and 1150s, Power Commander has a Wideband O2 sensor so the behavior is different but as I will explain in a few days, not really optimal. (LGW loaned my a PC III USB with Wideband and I've made some tests against the LC-1.)

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/05/13 02:39 PM

Part 4 of 4

R1200GSA Fully Adapted Demonstration Ride
On his way home from HelnBack, after about 20-30 hours of riding, Terry logged his AFRs for several hours. Below is about 1 1/2 minutes of one of the segments so you can see the degree to which the BMSK has adapted the AFRs of his two cylinders to be equal. They are nearly carbon copies of one another. I continue to be amazed by how well the BMSK manages the motorcycle.

While the chart pretty much speaks for itself, here are some notes:
--The tall peaks are Overrun Fuel Cutoff during deceleration. Note how well and how quickly the BMSK gets the engine back to its target AFR--13.65:1 in Terry's case using the LC-1s.

--The acceleration AFR dips which varied prior to adaptation in the post 2 of this series are very uniform. Even during acclereation, the AFRs track. The richest mixtures are about 11.8:1 (richer than a stock bike because of Adaptation to his 13.65 Closed Loop target).

--About the leanest the BMSK puts the mixture is about 15:1 during normal deceleration (in other words, not Overrun Cutoff). This would approach 16:1 on a stock bike as its target Closed Loop would be leaner. Also keep in mind that nowhere in the hours of logs Terry sent was there a leaner than target fueling during cruise or acceleration. If during Dyno runs, you see grossly lean AFRs recorded it is most likely due to the Dyno's Wideband AFR gauge in the tailpipe.

So that's it, probably too much detail but I hope that we all know more about how the BMW ECUs work. A big thank you from me to Terry for accumulating this data. Nice work!

RB


Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/09/13 02:51 AM

Last weekend a package arrived from a member of this forum who has decided to install the Innovate Motorsports MTX-L on his 2003 R1150RT. The MTX-L is an LC-1 and water-resistant gauge in a single package. It should perform just like the LC-1.

Inside the package was a Power Commander III USB with Wideband O2 sensor that was being replaced by the MTX-L. I've been eager to test the PC III for a while since on paper it seemed like a plug & play option for mixture richening. After running it for three days, it is an option, but I wasn't impressed.

Here are my notes:
1) The Closed loop lambda error of its Wideband was large. To get a closed loop of 13.8 you needed to program 14.4. Its programming was 14.2 when it arrived here which means it was actually at about 13.6. This is consistent with the carbon on the sensor when it arrived. I spoke to tech support at Dynojet about this. They said the unit self calibrated but clearly it didn't. To me, 0.3 afr would be the largest acceptable error, it was off by 0.8 afr.

2) The PC III BMW fuel table is a unique product. Unlike any other PC III it has Closed Loop and Open Loop fuel table cells. The Cells in the Closed Loop area are disabled. This leads to the complex problem that the Motronic through adaptation will add to open loop what it adds to closed loop. That is not documented. It means before deciding what values to add to the Open Loop cells you must wait for the Motronic to finish adapting. Of course there's no way to know when that happens.

It would be better if all cells in the fuel table were programmable. Then if you were moving afr 6% plus 4% for E10, you would enter +10 into the closed loops cells and adaptation would be minimal. The way it works you could have an invisible 10% added to Open Loop through adaptation and then be adding fuel on top of that! It is as confusing as it sounds.

The Closed Loop area defined by the PC and the Motronic are likely different. I communicated with PC tech support about this and they acknowledged it. As long as the PC area is bigger than the Motronic area it's not much of a problem but I couldn't confirm that.

3) The software is unique, has no upgrades, support or documentation. Here is what PC said, "You are correct, in that there is not an available firmware update for your type of Power Commander. It is a unique unit, and unlike all of the other standard Power Commander 3 usb units. It also is not compatible with any of the accessories like LCD, Quickshifter, etc."

4) It is truly plug and play and only took me 10 minutes to install since I have a second O2 bung and since my O2 connector was relocated so that it's not under the fuel tank. That said, you double the number of connectors for the TPS and each FI and need to take a lot of care dressing them so they don't interfere with the throttle linkage.

5) There is no AFR datalogging software as with the LC-1.

I was excited about the possibilities of the PC III for BMW with Wideband O2 but came away feeling that it is really two separate products that aren't well integrated or supported.
RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/11/13 11:32 AM

On another site I made some comments about availability for R1150s with OEM connectors and other motorcycles. Here are my comments.

Originally Posted By: EKinOR
Just a follow up to my post on on Roger's test device. After having to uninstall the test unit :cry I did a 100 mile day ride, two up. The difference was really noticeable. Even with a really good TB sync using a Harmonizer across multiple RPMs, I had noticeable surging after the uninstall. Low RPM roll-on was significantly reduced as well. I think the uninstall made the differences more noticeable, as the Motronic gets reset, and unlike with the install, there is no adaptation going on, as it's back to base line.

I will be buying one! I heartily recommend every 1150 owner get one, along with an IAT shifting device such as the IICE Air or Booster Plug.


Thanks Eric, glad to hear. I've sent you production unit one just yesterday. No reason to live with a stock bike much longer. These BMWs really respond to just a bit more fuel.

Originally Posted By: Mr. Ch
That's where I'm leaning right now....I'm going to wait a couple of weeks and see what the final cost is - I sent an email to Nightrider.com since they have a waitlist email on the site.


Steve@nightrider won't list these on his site until the volumes build so what I've agreed to do so that this gets going: I've purchased four dozen sets of OEM connectors and will place a series of bulk orders. Then I'll find a way to distribute and let everyone know soon. There will probably be a page in the advrider.com vendors section. I will have an announcement any day soon.

After that we will also list a generic cable while we test and shore up supplies for R1200s, F800s and R1100s. The generic cable would allow someone to add it to their existing O2 sensor, avoiding the wait for OEM connector availability. It will be a cut and crimp operation.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/22/13 12:14 PM

Here's an update of where things stand with the Narrowband Shift device.

1) A dozen first production run units and cables for R1150 (Motronic MA 2.4) will be ready for shipment sometime during the coming week. Many of those have been spoken for by beta-riders, etc. More on this during the week.

2) We'll have a couple generic cables that I'll add BMS-K (R1200, F800) connectors to for further beta testing of these models. I don't expect any surprises. (See BMSK Proto Below)

3) Connector supply for OEM parts seems to be progressing in the past week.

4) Since the R1150 series is ready to ship, I've converted Proto 2 from 1150 to BMS-K and will beta test this on an F800GS. Because I have a reference LC-1 installation on an F800S I'm expecting this beta test to go well.

We've got several R1200/F800 O2 sensors and I've been installing them on my R1150, with a Proto modified to have an R1200/F800 connector on the O2 side and R1150 connector on the MA 2.4 side. It ran just as well as the R1100, R1150 single-spark and R1150 dual-spark. A couple user beta tests and then it should be good to go.

Here is a photo of the BMS-K beta unit that will ship out for beta riding for a couple weeks.

RB

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/28/13 03:07 PM

The F800GS beta unit is an important step in the BMW-AF-XIED(r) product testing since the F800 uses a BMSK controller. The installation took place and was successfully test ridden earlier this week. This is a pretty good indication that the R1200 beta will go smoothly.

Here is a link to the early beta report: [url="http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=21746455#post21746455"]BMW-AF-XIED Beta on F800GS (photos included)[/url].
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/02/13 02:10 AM

It's official now, Nightrider.com has gone into production on the BMW-AF-XIED with an R1150/Motronic MA 2.4 harness, and a you-do-it Universal Harness. Harnesses for R1100s, R1200s and F800s are in development and beta testing.

As those who have been following the thread know, this device richens the Closed Loop mixture by shifting the stock narrowband sensor's output signal using digital signal processing technology.

I'm sure there will be a formal announcement soon, and I expect to see a prominent BMW parts/accessories/add-ons retailer join the distribution channel.

Nightrider ran a small production lot last week and has just kicked off a larger run. Here's a photo of some units I received today and a diagram of how elegantly the BMW-AF-XIED fits into the Motronic system.



Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/02/13 10:46 AM

In addition to the news that Nightrider.com has completed its first production,

BeemerBoneyard.com, a well-known supplier on new and used BMW parts, has joined the BMW-AF-XIED marketing effort. I have heard they will have units ready for sale by July 22.

RB


Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt;21769142
It's official now, Nightrider.com has gone into production on the BMW-AF-XIED with an R1150/Motronic MA 2.4 harness, and a you-do-it Universal Harness. Harnesses for R1100s, R1200s and F800s are in development and beta testing.

As those who have been following the thread know, this device richens the Closed Loop mixture by shifting the stock narrowband sensor's output signal using digital signal processing technology.

I'm sure there will be a formal announcement soon, and I expect to see a prominent BMW parts/accessories/add-ons retailer join the distribution channel.

Nightrider ran a small production lot last week and has just kicked off a larger run. Here's a photo of some units I received today and a diagram of how elegantly the BMW-AF-XIED fits into the Motronic system.


Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/02/13 03:32 PM

Beemer Boneyand will be setting up a Vendor thread on the ADVrider site, for support and Q&A, soon.

In the meantime, I thought I'd report on the box of devices and cables that I received from Nightrider.com yesterday.

Given the trusting soul that I am, I unpacked and connected all the BMW-AF-XIEDs that they shipped to me, and the R1150 harnesses too. I ran everyone on my bike after pulling the plastic. Then I connected my GS-911 and LC-1 and datalogged them.

Everyone was spot-on. Great job Steve at Nightrider.com!
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/07/13 04:16 PM

A couple early installs of the first production lot BMW-AF-XIED shipped by nightrider.com.

2002 R1150GS

2000 R1150GS

I have a couple with universal cables that could easily be spliced to an R1100 O2 sensor. Anyone interested, please PM me.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/08/13 08:14 PM

On behalf of Beemer Boneyard and Nightrider, I set up a Vendor support thread here: BMW-AF-XIED Support.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/15/13 02:02 AM

Here's a link to a first report: K1200RS using the BMW-AF-XIED.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/30/13 06:59 PM

I heard from Nightrider and Beemer Boneyard that another batch of Controllers and R1150 cables will be available soon. R1200 cables are now in the design/check pipeline and should be available soon.

R1100 connectors are a little further behind but a Universal Cable is offered. Below is a picture of how 3 of the 5 wires in the harness get connected to a stock O2 sensor in the absence of OEM Cables.

It's pretty easy really. Four inches from the O2 Sensor Connector, cut the black wire crimp splice to each end of the black and tap connect to one of the white wires. One cut, three connections.

The BMW-AF-XIED has a stock mode so you can return to stock without touching the cable.

Posted By: mikefigielski

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/31/13 09:12 PM

Looks like we should have our first shipment of controllers and 1150 harnesses and universal harnesses around August 15th.
Mike
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/03/13 04:37 PM

Here's an idea of how gas mileage is working out at lambda 0.94 (6% rich AFR). Put 143 miles on my bike the other day. Here are the stats.

147 miles odometer, 143 miles (google maps) (odometer error 3%)
90 miles highway (60-75 mph) est. 68 mph average
53 miles local/stop&go, speed less than 50 mph
Top case and two side cases, windshield full up
Air Temp 75F

2.877 gallons between fills (error allowance +0.1 gallons), 143.2 miles,

average 143.2/2.877 = 49.8 mpg (with error allowance 143.2/2.977=48.1 mpg)

Next Up: A test run of lambda 1.08 (AFR 15.9:1) 8% leaner than stock
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/09/13 11:37 AM

Running the Oilhead Very Lean

The Innovate Motorsports LC-1 has two analog channels. One is usually used to simulate a Narrowband O2 output. The other analog channel is usually set to drive an AFR gauge, however it is possible to program it to simulate a Narrowband O2 output as well.

With that in mind Analog 1 to lambda = 0.93 (7% rich, 13.65:1 AFR) and Analog 2 to lambda = 1.08 (8% lean, 15.9:1 AFR). By means of a selector switch you can choose which mixture the Motronic is using, even while running down the road.

You can see in the chart below how easily the Motronic moves from Closed Loop at 7% rich to Closed Loop at 8% lean, and also how well it holds Closed Loop at either setting. Also on the chart is a reference line at 14.7:1 which represents the stock oxygen sensor setting.



I had a chance today to make a 50 mile run with Closed Loop at the very lean setting of lambda = 1.08. Some observations:

--The Motronic easily adjusts to 1.08. This wasn't a very long test but under riding conditions over the 50 miles the bike seemed to be running normally, but with, for lack of a better phrase, a more anemic feeling.

--In cruise mode at speeds up to 60 MPH (top speed I could run for any distance on the roadway), there was no misfiring and no pinging. In fact I tried to make it ping with some uphill roll-ons and couldn't. The engine didn't seem to run any hotter than usual.

--Since my BBSs were set to idle at 13.65:1, I had to keep the fast idle lever up to idle at 1100 RPM. With the leaner mixture it takes more air to idle at a given speed.

--The engine performed "okay" but it took more throttle to start off than in the richer setting, the bike stalled as I let out the clutch to leave the driveway. Roll-on throttle while cruising, led to a very slight hesitation before acceleration

--At low speeds, throttle input exhibited some jerkiness during transitions from acceleration to deceleration that aren't there at all at lambda 0.93. The "hop" that can occur when the bike comes out of Overrun Fuel Cutoff was pronounced.

--The natural up-shifting point seemed about 1000 RPM higher than I grown accustomed to with richer than stock mixtures. It really did not want to be upshifted until 4000-5000 RPM. It just wasn't settled and ready to be shifted much earlier.

--Was there any surging? Yes, but only a bit and no more than I remember with a stock O2 sensor. Mostly light throttle in the range of 3000 to 4000 RPM.

--The course was 5 miles long with short stops and starts during course reversal. The 53.5 miles on odometer (51.9 corrected) was ridden mostly at speeds between 45 and 55 mph but top speeds were 65-70. Fuel consumed was 1.05 gallons +/- 5% which is about 49 mpg +/- 2 mpg.

Summary
In effect, this test was a side by side comparison of a richer fueled R1150RT and a leaner fueled bike. There's not question which is the more satisfying motorcycle to ride, the richer mixture by far.

Although the Motronic seems very flexible and able to run rich or lean of the stock setting with modified Lambda input, there is a big difference in the feeling of the engine. Richer mixtures (plus 4-6%) lead to a much smoother, slightly more powerful engine, especially below 4000 RPM, that "asks" to be shifted about 1000 RPM lower than a leaner one.

Leaner mixtures (minus 0-8%) lead to a more anemic feeling and seem to amplify whatever bad manners the engine exhibits (OFC hop, surge, roughness, hesitation). Overall it was an unpleasant ride.

By the end of the 50 mile test I was very happy to flip the switch back to lambda 0.94 where it's going to stay for the rest of the summer.
RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/13/13 01:12 PM

Tank Vent Effect on AFR

Yesterday I had a chance to see what the effect of opening the tank vent was on mixture leanness.

To measure that I pulled the vent hose from the throttle body side of the solenoid and then blocked and unblocked it with my finger while the bike was idling, where it seems the effect should be greatest due to high intake manifold vacuum. I used the graphical output of the LC-1 to make the measurement.

The effect was pretty simple so I'll describe it and not bother with a chart.

During Closed Loop operation, opening the Motronic adapts to the opening and closing (which it knows nothing about since I'm using my finger) so quickly that there is no visible effect on AFR.

During Open Loop operation, while the bike was warming up, there was roughly a 0.6 AFR change. With the hose capped I measured 12.8:1 and then when opened, 13.4:1. I did this repeatedly and the (approx.) 4% change in idle AFR, back and forth as I opened and closed the hose inlet was very repeatable.

My reason for making the measurement was to see what effect I could have on the mixture during startup by opening the vent. Now I know. wink

RB

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/19/13 05:50 PM

For about the last month, even though my bike has been running great, I've noticed that my bike was taking progressively a little longer to start the first start of the day. For the past week it ran rough for 5-10 seconds after starting.

Having both an LC-1 and GS-911, I can measure all the sensors and the exhaust AFR, moment by moment, from before cranking and through start-up. So I hitched up the computer and recorded every start for several days. Maybe I got too much data but it showed that the exhaust was lean and also that the spark advance was staying at ZERO degrees for 7-10 seconds until the engine was running smoothly. So the leanness indicated to me that I might have a fueling problem and the spark advance left me thinking that maybe my HES was compromised.

The detail of the step by step tries to eliminate things isn't so interesting but by yesterday I was using the GS-911 in Hall Sensor Test Mode to see if the sensors were working and I was using the rear wheel with the transmission in 6th to spin the crank. I couldn't move the crankshaft smoothly enough with the plugs in so I decided to pull both primary plugs (stick coils in my 2004) something I last did about 6 weeks ago. It was then that I realized the left stick coil was 1/8"-3/16" higher-than-fully-seated. I ran all my tests and put things back together, making sure to fully seat the stick coils.

This morning, I took another data set and started the bike. It started right up as usual. The LC-1 indicates a little lean for about 7 seconds, but the spark advance (which is ZERO degrees during cranking) now goes to 5-7 degrees as soon (within one second) as the bike starts.

The fact that the Motronic holds the spark advance at zero degrees until the engine is running smoothly says that it has software that can detect time differentials between the HES sensors and conclude that the engine is misfiring or not running properly, a capability that I've read about for other ECUs.

When I ran the hall sensor test per the GS-911 instructions, using the rear wheel to turn the engine, which leads to some unevenness of the speed of turning the engine. I did see each sensor change state but not in a 1 2 1 2 1 2 sequence like I expected. It was more like 1 2 1 1 1 2 2 1 2 etc. I'm not sure whether this is expected or may be indicating some crosstalk between the sensors. I'll look into that more later.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/21/13 02:49 PM

LC-1 Installed on R1100RT

A friend from Vancouver who goes by the name Happy Wanderer on a couple other sites agreed to be a beta tester for the BMW-AF-XIED on his R1100RT: [url="http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?56990-2004-R1150RT-Wideband-O2-Sensors&p=880407&viewfull=1#post880407"]R1100RT XIED Beta Report[/url]. The success of that inspired him to go whole-hog and install the Innovate Motorsports LC-1. GS Addict helped him with the installation and the workmanship is top notch.



The significance of this to all of us is that we will, as Happy Wanderer's time allows, start to get the first clear picture of how the R1100 makes its fueling decisions. Before going into detail, from the several test rides that HW has made to date, it's looking pretty clear that the R1100 and R1150 have very similar fueling algorithms. At first glance, it is difficult to tell the difference. Below is the first test ride made with the LC-1 set at Lambda 0.96 (4% richer or about 14.1:1). If I didn't know better, I'd say this data was taken from my R1150 it is that similar.



After riding for a few days at Lambda 0.96, HW increased the Closed Loop enrichment target by 2% to lambda 0.94 (6% total enrichment) and set up and took data from a cold-start to test ride on the road, that chart is below. A summary of what I can see from this and other charts he sent:

--Cold Start Enrichment: The R1100 has a similar start-up and cold start enrichment sequence, conducted as an Open Loop process. A difference to the R1150RT is that the R1100 seems to run a fixed time sequence from cold start where the R1150 shortens the time to Closed Loop, based on engine temperature, probably to reduce emissions. The amount of cold start enrichment seems the same as the R1150--10-15%.

--Adaptation Values: Based on several sequences HW sent me, and his reports, it is very clear that the Motronic MA 2.2 has learning adaptation, much like the R1150 and R1200. I can't say that the process is exactly the same, just that it exists. There are many who see the Motronic ECUs as simplistic, through the course of this project, I've seen many sophisticated capabilities in all models. This should not be a surprise since Bosch/BMW had had electronic fuel injection for about 15 years when the Oilheads were introduced.

--Acceleration Enrichment: Looking at the dips below the 13.8:1 line on the chart, you can see a significant acceleration enrichment, just like the R1150 and R1200. AFRs get to nearly 12:1 with a good turn of the throttle.

--Deceleration Enleanment: Likewise you can see bumps up to 14.4 or 15:1 showing that during mild deceleration the mixture is leaned by 4-8%.

--Overrun Fuel Cutoff: Just like with the R1150 and R1200, when the throttle is closed, the Motronic on the R1100 shuts off the injectors and the mixture shoots to the top of the chart, greater than 22:1.

--Rock Steady Closed Loop Fueling: HW is running E10 fuel during this test which shows that the Motronic has adapted (the fuel is 4% leaner than pure gas) its Closed Loop fueling to 6% richer than stock fueling (10% total enrichment considering the E10) and readily gets it back to 13.8:1 after acceleration, deceleration or overrun fuel cutoff.



Thanks HW for the big effort you and GSA made to get this installed. I know as time allows you intend to take data with the Coding Plug out. When you do, the last of the Motronic's secrets will be exposed and we'll all know once and for all just what the R1100s and Motronic MA 2.2s do when the Coding Plug is removed.

Great work!
Posted By: mikefigielski

Re:R1150 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE @ Beemerboneyard! - 08/21/13 09:10 PM

Hi Guys,
Took a little longer than I had hoped but we just received our first shipment of 24 of the BMW-AF-Xied units for the R1150 series bikes. You can see and/or order them here: http://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafxied1150.html
Stay tuned for R1100 and R1200 plug and play versions as soon as we can get the connectors delivered. Thanks!
Mike

PS,
These work unbelievably well. Took off the Power Commander I had installed on my bike for one of these and I won't be going back to the PC! It is that good!
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1150 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE @ Beemerboneyard! - 08/23/13 10:53 AM

Originally Posted By: mikefigielski
Hi Guys,
Took a little longer than I had hoped but we just received our first shipment of 24 of the BMW-AF-Xied units for the R1150 series bikes. You can see and/or order them here: http://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafxied1150.html
Stay tuned for R1100 and R1200 plug and play versions as soon as we can get the connectors delivered. Thanks!
Mike

PS,
These work unbelievably well. Took off the Power Commander I had installed on my bike for one of these and I won't be going back to the PC! It is that good!


Mike,

Glad to here you're getting your first shipment and cables.

I am also impressed that you like it better than the PC III w/Wideband.

It is not well known that the main benefit of the PC III is the Wideband sensor, which Dynojet sets to 13.8:1. The PC III doesn't calibrate the Wideband so it can become inaccurate. Also since the 1150 adapts to the 13.8 setting it adds 6% everywhere through adaptation. So there is an invisible 6% in every cell.

That hidden 6% is only there after you ride for a while and the Motronic builds up some Adaptive Values and not typically when the dyno tuner does their thing. So it is easy to end up with too much fuel. Going further, the BMW fuel table has plenty of fuel already in the high power areas where tuners typically add fuel. So the typical PC Dyno tune adds fuel to an already rich area, and the the adaptive values add more.

Oddly the best place to add fuel on an Oilhead may be the 0%, 2%, and 5% columns above 2000 rpm. That is where the Oilhead is lean. But tuners never seem to add it there even though that is a spot that leads to surging.

Anyway, as you found out the BMW-AF-XIED gives you closed loop enrichment with the more robust, stock O2 sensor and is a one connector install. Simpler and smaller than the PC III w/Wideband, no computer programming. One potentiometer to set, usually at setting 7 or 8 on the 1150 and 1200.

RB
Posted By: Stan Walker

Re:R1150 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE @ Beemerboneyard! - 08/25/13 02:43 AM

Took a little longer than I had hoped but we just received our first shipment of 24 of the BMW-AF-Xied units for the R1150 series bikes. You can see and/or order them here: http://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafxied1150.html

All right, I'll belly up to the bar and order one. Actually I just did that a couple of minutes ago.

I've been thinking more and more about upgrading to a wet-head once it becomes available.

Hopefully this will make my R1150RT so much better that I will forget about the new bike and stick with this one.

Let's see, that could save me about $15,000 dollars! I don't think selling my '02 with over 120,000 miles is going to net me any big bucks.

Stan
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1150 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE @ Beemerboneyard! - 08/25/13 03:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Stan Walker
Took a little longer than I had hoped but we just received our first shipment of 24 of the BMW-AF-Xied units for the R1150 series bikes. You can see and/or order them here: http://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafxied1150.html

All right, I'll belly up to the bar and order one. Actually I just did that a couple of minutes ago.

I've been thinking more and more about upgrading to a wet-head once it becomes available.

Hopefully this will make my R1150RT so much better that I will forget about the new bike and stick with this one.

Let's see, that could save me about $15,000 dollars! I don't think selling my '02 with over 120,000 miles is going to net me any big bucks.

Stan


Stan,

Funny you should mention the GSW OR RTW. Mike at Beemer boneyard had a customer who wanted to know if the R1200 cable would fit the GSW. Looks like it will but what better excuse for me to test drive one.

It is a nice bike, all the latest & greatest and 125 horses. However, for throttle smoothness I'll put my 04 RT with LC-1 up against it any day. And the seat was hard as a rock. wink
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/26/13 12:21 PM

R1100RT OPEN LOOP FUELING, No Coding Plug (no CO Pot)

In the spirit of a picture is worth a thousand words, here is a chart I've been hoping (and waiting) to post for a year. You can look back one page for the Close Loop charts and commentary: HERE.



Michael in BC, Canada, who has installed the LC-1 on his R1100RT was kind enough to reset his Motronic, remove his BoosterPlug, remove the Yellow Coding Plug (left the O2 sensor attached), and log a couple 40 minute test runs logging AFR data with his LC-1. There is a wealth of information in this small diagram.

First, the conditions:
Temperature: 70F
Coding Plug: None
CO Pot: None
O2 Sensor: Installed & Connected (but being ignored by the Motronic)
Motronic: Reset
Fuel: Premium with 10% Ethanol (4% lean compared to gasoline)

Looking at the chart above it is very clear how the R1100RT fuels without a Coding Plug. Since the CO adjustment target, if a CO Pot were installed, is 1.5% carbon monoxide (implying a gasoline AFR of 14.0:1) we can make an educated guess about how this chart will look with the CO Pot connected and adjusted, a test that will be made soon.

Although it would be more precise if I wrote these descriptions in terms of Lambda, but most readers are familiar with gasoline AFRs, so I have put everything in those terms.

First, I've carefully looked over two charts from this test run. Although the O2 sensor is installed and connected, it is clear that with NO Coding Plug, the Motronic does not make any use of the O2 sensor. This means that No Coding Plug is a fully Open Loop fueled R1100 motorcycle. I believe that a 30-87a (beige) Coding Plug will yield the same results.

Next, the idle AFR with no CO Pot connected is a very rich 12.4:1, were this motorcycle running pure gas at the time of the test the AFR logged would have been 11.8:1. At start-up on a 70F, the fueling is about 5% richer than that for several minutes while the motor warms up. Although this bike runs well with no CO Pot, it would be better to have it. An idle AFR of 13.8 to 14.0 would be fine.

Next, take a look at points 3 & 4 on the chart. Point three is the AFR while cruising at 40 mph and point four is while cruising at 65 mph, with AFRs of about 13.8:1 and 14.8:1 respectively. If this engine were running pure gas (what the fuel tables were designed for) that would mean AFRs of 13.2:1 and 14.2:1 respectively.

When the CO pot is adjusted to 1.5% CO, I expect those cruise AFRs with pure gas to be 14.0 and 14.4 respectively, effectively compressing the AFR spread. From this data one could conclude that the Oilheads were designed by BMW to cruise with an AFR in this range. This is well supported by the results several of us have seen with LC-1s and BMW-AF-XIEDs on our R1150s.

Looking closely at the AFR spreads between idle, 40 mph cruise and 65 mph cruise it isn't too hard to infer what the Motronic does with the CO Pot signal: it adds or subtracts an amount of time to the Injection Time calculation. In this way, it has a lot of effect at times when the Injection Pulse Times are short (like at idle and light cruise) and much less effect when Injection Pulse Times are long (like during acceleration and high-speed cruise).

In the No Coding Plug configuration, the Motronic still displays the same array of acceleration and deceleration enrichments and enleanments, still shows Overrun Fuel Cutoff and still shows a Warm Up enrichment sequence.

There's a lot to see and think about in this chart and sometime soon we'll have one run under the same conditions but with a CO Pot installed and adjusted. In the meantime, this points the way to a surge-free, best running Boxer Motor (R1100, R1150 and even R1200). Fuel it at 14:1, one way or another.

RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/27/13 02:01 PM

Originally Posted By: happy wanderer;895335
Thanks for the excellent analysis of the data I sent you Roger. Have to admit I was confused at what I was looking at and for a while was getting convinced that the highway cruise section of my test ride (part 4 in the graph) was actually closed loop. After reading your report I now know it's just the ECU using the fuel map to get to it's prime directive; 14.7:1 AFR.

Rain and possible thunderstorms were forecast up here today but reality is things look pretty good outside at the moment. I am really curious to see what is going to transpire when I re-connect my CO trim pot so I think I'll get started on the next test! :dance

Installing and testing the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 wideband O2 sensor is really an eye opener. Over the past couple of years I and many others have chased down all sorts of suggestions on how to get these big twins to quit surging, end snatchy throttle syndrome and run like a big twin should. Theories and myths abound and I've tried most of them going back to Rob Lentini's work and documentation on up to the Booster Plug with a host of other things in between. The list is too long to get into here all over again. I had incremental successes but no lasting solution. Till now.

The LC-1 and the more user friendly plug and play solution the AF-XIED actually work unlike anything else I've done to date which only chipped away at symptoms. Best of all is having actual data from real on the bike testing and being able to log exactly what is happening in real time.

If we can debunk some myths and confirm some information about R259 engine fueling along the way I'm a happy camper. errrr wanderer. :thumb


You mention about the ECU using its map to get to the prime directive if 14.7, and what is clear from the data is that the Motronic Open Lopp fuel maps of NO CODING PLUG or BEIGE (30-87a) have no directive regarding 14.7:1 because these maps weren't designed to keep a catalytic converter happy!

I believe that the R1100RT no coding plug map, with stock intake tubes and pure gasoline and the CO Pot adjusted to 1.5%, were BMWs design for a great running boxer. So I'm going to go over paragraph 4 which I've pasted below some more.

The data as present showed 13.8:1 for 40 mph cruise and 14.8 for 65 mph. Let me adjust those numbers for two conditions: ethanol and the misadjusted CO pot. E10 is 4% leaner than gasoline so if you were running pure gas the 40 mph cruise AFR would have shown 13.2:1 and the 65 mph cruise 14.2:1. That is the boxer design cruise range, except we have to make a correction for the unadjusted CO Pot.

At idle, injection pulses are 2.1 mS, but 1 mS is dead time so the actual on-time is about 1.1mS. That is supposed to create an AFR of 14.0:1 at idle (1.5% CO). You now idle at 12.4:1 so your bike is idling 14% richer than the 14.0 spec. That mean the injection time is 0.14 mS too long due to CO not yet adjusted. Taking that 0.14 mS and subtracting it from the 40 mpg gasoline measures AFR of 13.2:1 would bring the 40 mph AFR to 14.1:1, likewise doing the same to 65 mph cruise would move about 14.4.

With these adjustments, it strongly appears to me that BMW designed the boxer engine to run with an AFR between 14.0:1 and 14.4:1 in the cruising range and 12.8:1 when accelerating aggressively. (14.7 is only to make the catalytic converter happy. It must have been a sad day at BMW.)

The good news is that fueling the Boxer at 13.8 to 14.1 can be achieved easily now on the R1000, R1150 and R1200 through Closed Loop Lambda control.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/28/13 02:18 PM

Part 1 of 2

Michael has been at it again. He got out yesterday for another R1100RT test ride. He kept the bike in the No Coding Plug, Open Loop configuration. He now has a CO Pot installed and on this test ride he adjusted it to the BMW specified 1.5% CO. Looking at the first chart below, you can see that the idle AFR before adjustment (point 1) was in the vicinity of 12:1. At this point the motorcycle was warm and he adjusted the AFR, using the LC-1, to 14:1 (point 2) an AFR of 14:1 equates to a Carbon Monoxide level of 1.5% (BMW spec is 1.5% +/- 0.5% for Euro bikes).

Everything to the right of the point where the CO was adjusted is representative of how BMW designed the R1100RT to run when it didn't have to meet the needs of a catalytic converter. The only difference is that Micheal is running E10 fuel so the whole curve is about 4% leaner than it will be when he runs pure gas--a test he will make later. The important thing to see is the average cruise fueling the top marker line at 14.6:1 cruising is just above and below that level.

It seems clear to me that the BMW Boxer motorcycles were designed to run with a cruise afr of about 14:1. When you subtract the 0.6 AFR leanness of E10 fuel, you can correctly infer the BMW fueling target for the R1100RT, when they didn't have to meet the EPA conditions of the catalytic converter, were an AFR of about 14.0:1 (14.6 seen minus 0.6 AFR for E10 fuel).

Test Conditions
No Coding Plug
CO Pot (adjusted during test ride)
O2 Sensor installed and connected (but being ignored by Motronic)

(The chart below is a moment by moment recording of AFR (Air to Fuel Ratio) over the course of about an hour, during a test ride.)
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/28/13 02:33 PM

Part 2 of 2

To wrap up the basic R1100RT fueling, I'm adding three histogram plots from three separate hour-long rides. What a histogram chart shows is how many occurances there were on the test ride of each AFR level. So a tall bar means that the motorcycle was at that AFR level, many times during the hour. A small bar means it was at that AFR less times.

If you look at the chart below, you can see the AFR distribution of three different fueling styles. Remember, the Open Loop charts are 4% lean because the bike is being fueled with E10 fuel.

Looking at the Closed Loop chart where the target AFR has been set to 13.8:1, you can see that the fueling is tightly around 13.8:1. (If this were a stock bike the chart would look very similar but the center of the tall bars would be 6% leaner at 14.7:1)

Looking at the Open Loop chart with no CO Pot adjusted. You see several peaks. The idle peaks are at about 12:1, the cruise peak is at about 14.4:1.

After adjusting the CO Pot to BMW's spec of 1.5% CO you see the cruise peaks in the same 14.4:1 region but the idle spikes at 12:1 are now gone. To me this looks like a better fueling distribution than No CO Pot.

Lastly, and it's not shown, you could move the Open Loop fueling distributions to the left (richer) by running a BoosterPlug or by running pure gasoline with no ethanol.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/30/13 11:54 AM

PM I received. 2004 R1150RT

Quote:
Hi Roger

From memory the last UPS delivery I had was around $35.00 and there was no delay as they have their own UK hub and VAT was paid on the door with no additional charges.

I am using the pink CCP.

As suggested I have just come in from a short run, around 15 miles, on setting 8. I am surprised that it made such a noticeable difference over the 7 setting. It seemed that I needed to open the throttle less for the same pickup and that the bike was keen to accelerate with the smoothness further improved. Cruising in 6th at around 55-60MPH was very comfortable and nipping past traffic didn't need a down change. It maybe my imagination but I seem to have more engine braking and the transition from off to on throttle is seamless. I have no surging anywhere.

When I gave it some beans the machine gathered speed at an almost alarming rate whereas before fitting the XIED it was a bit flat which was particularly noticeable when overtaking.

It will be interesting to see how the fuel consumption is affected but from your posts it looks like it could be more or less neutral depending on my right hand! I just need to get more miles with it which I hope to do in the next couple of weeks.

All in all I am very pleased with the unit. Well done to you all.

Cheers

N...



Posted By: Mr_Fube

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/05/13 02:56 PM

As a not-particularly technical person, I have to say I only understand some of this thread. I had a question regarding Techlusion/Powercommanders and my 2001 R1150RT.

Basically, I'm using my bike for a LOT of motorway/highway mileage. Very little else. It's perfect for that sort of thing after all. However, I've noticed that a tank gets very variable mileage depending on various riding styles and conditions. I know, right.. but I mean A LOT of variance. I know the pumps at some gas stations are a little more sensitive than others at stopping when they think the tank is full, but without using too much accurate/scientific data on how much was in the tank other than "it's filled as much as it will accept from the pump", I've had as little as 140miles out of the tank and as much as 215.

Would a power commander (and probably a good service) help make this more predictable. I've heard different maps can provide more power or greater fuel economy etc. At the moment, with my gas bill for the bike running at 300 or so per month, I'm all about the fuel economy, even at the cost of some power. All advice gratefully received.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/05/13 03:42 PM

Hello Mr_Fube,
I doubt a Power Commander would do you much good in regards to your fuel usage variation. I use the wideband sensor with LC-1 on my '04 R1150 for reasons other than fuel economy. Now, I have noticed that the fuel economy of my 1150 does vary greatly anywhere from about 41 to 53 mpg. I think the wide variation in mpg is mostly caused by the aerodynamics or lack of same of the motorcycle itself and therefore not much is to be done about it. Cross winds and, worse yet, head winds seem to be the big variable affecting fuel economy. I always use premium (91 octane) non ethanol fuel and keep my motorcycle in good tune. Recently had the fuel injectors cleaned and balance tested.

Cheers
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/05/13 03:47 PM

Here is a thread with some fuel mileage info: R1150RT Gas Mileage.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/05/13 11:45 PM

I'm doing between 250 - 267 miles with a full tank with my 1150 equipped with a LC-1 settled at an AFR of 13.5:1. Most of my rides are duo rides
Posted By: philbytx

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/06/13 12:35 AM

Mr. Fube, are you quoting mileage in Imperial gallons?
If so, you definitely need to get someone knowledgeable looking at your bike!!

I regularly get 41/42 mpUSg two-up and riding quite briskly and have got 45/50 being sensibly boring smile !






Posted By: AndyS

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/06/13 08:16 AM

Hi Mr Fube
Your post seems a little vague.
You are in control of filling the tank, and you need to get some reliable way of knowing how full you rill your tank.
Why not every time put the bike on the centre stand and carefully fill it until the fuel just touches the bottom of the filler neck. I realise that you will be under filling it, but at least you will be able to get repeatability for some fuel consumption checks.
You say you do a lot of Motorway work, what sort of average speed do you ride at?
I find that I am in the 50mpg range at speeds up to about 75mph, but after that it goes down hill rapidly.
Typically over 70000 miles my bike has averaged over 52 uk mpg.
Take things one step at a time. you won't find a magic bullet.
A really good service with filter and plug change along with valves and TB balance and at least you will have a datum to work from.
Andy
Posted By: Stan Walker

Re:R1150 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE @ Beemerboneyard! - 09/08/13 06:15 PM

Roger

Just installed my BMW-AF-Xied on my R1150RT and of course I have a question for you.

On turning on the ignition it does the initial single 3 LED blink. But it never blinks the setting as described in the manual. I tried this with the dial turned full cw and ccw. No joy. In also tried it after reseating the white connector but not the two BMW ones. I have verified that the ground connection is good.

Does the bike need to be running? I currently still have the fuel tank off as I have some other work to do before I put it back.

Stan
Posted By: Stan Walker

Re:R1150 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE @ Beemerboneyard! - 09/08/13 06:46 PM

Aha!

Looking at a schematic it would seem you get power from the heater wire and the heater is only energized if the fuel pump relay is picked.

So, it seems that this blink count will only happen if the engine is running on the R1150RT. I could kludge something up, but doesn't seem worth the effort just to see it blink.

Could I be so bold as to suggest that a note in the manual could clarify this?

Stan
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1150 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE @ Beemerboneyard! - 09/08/13 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Stan Walker
Aha!

Looking at a schematic it would seem you get power from the heater wire and the heater is only energized if the fuel pump relay is picked.

So, it seems that this blink count will only happen if the engine is running on the R1150RT. I could kludge something up, but doesn't seem worth the effort just to see it blink.

Could I be so bold as to suggest that a note in the manual could clarify this?

Stan



Stan. Good idea for the note. As soon as the engine fires, count the yellow flashes.

If you have good eyes or use a magnifying glass you can see an arrow pointer on the adjuster, and hash marks that run from about 7 to 5 on a clock face. Noon is setting 6, and 11am is setting 7. Start with 7 and later try 8.
RB
Posted By: Stan Walker

Re:R1150 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE @ Beemerboneyard! - 09/08/13 10:37 PM

As soon as the engine fires, count the yellow flashes

Thanks Roger.

That's going to be awhile. I've already drained the tank in preparation for replacing the fuel lines, the tank is sitting on the floor. I'm also replacing all the brake lines with Spiegler braided brake lines while the tank is off.

I'm not in a hurry, don't currently have any long trips planned, good thing, I need to replace my tires and front brake pads too. Not to mention the fork seals......

I work at this a little bit every day.

Stan
Posted By: Stan Walker

Re:R1150 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE @ Beemerboneyard! - 09/11/13 12:01 AM

As soon as the engine fires, count the yellow flashes

Seven little yellow blinks. Bike started and idled OK.

Didn't ride it, still waiting for fork parts to arrive (Thursday). Also need to mount new tires (Metzeler Z8 pair already here).

Stan
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1150 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE @ Beemerboneyard! - 09/11/13 06:54 PM

Hey Stan,
We're following your progress. I just put on a new front tire with four zip ties. Piece of cake.
Posted By: mikefigielski

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 09/11/13 09:10 PM

Just got word that we'll be selling the complete R1200 AF-XiED package for $379.95!! Should have units available hopefully late next week or the week of the 23rd at the latest. When we get them they will be posted here:
http://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafo2sema.html .
We have just listed an R1100 version (you'll find them at the link above too) that has a universal tap in harness. This is because it may be as long as 6 months before we will have a plug and play harness available for the R1100. It is a simple tie in. Just 2 crimp connections and one tap connection. Eventually we'll have Posi Locks and Posi taps included but for now customers will have to source their own connectors. Soldering is not an option. This was covered in a previous post somewhere and too long of an explanation to put here. We are getting there laugh
Thanks!
Mike
Posted By: wallyging

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 09/17/13 03:16 PM

I have had the LC-1 on my 2001 R1150GS for a few months now with good results -- increased torque, improved driveability, and improved mileage in the range of 2-3 mpg.

My 2003 K1200GT (brick engine) has the same Motronic (MA 2.4) as the GS, and with Roger's go ahead I installed one of the new AF-XiED kits on it. I've since ridden about a thousand miles with strikingly good results.

I've ridden the same 400 mile out and back loop twice - about 250 miles of freeway, and 150 miles of twisties. Overall mileage for the freeway portion (up to 75 mph) was 44 mpg, and for the twisties 38 mpg when I rode them hard 43 when I took a more leisurely pace.

This is a striking result for me, since I don't recall getting better than 40 mpg with the K12GT more than once in the 30,000 miles I've ridden it. I can't really say much about increase in torque since the bike is so powerful I never rode it to its limit, but it's still plenty powerful -- lifting the front wheel off the ground under WOT at 6000-7000 rpm in 1st gear. More than I need! I removed the plugs after the first 500 miles with the AF-XiED and they were a nice light tan, indicating the motor was burning cleanly.

Thanks again to Roger for inventing this nifty little gadget that improves the performance of our bikes so much while at the same time improving their efficiency!
Posted By: mikefigielski

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 10/02/13 10:10 PM

Originally Posted By: mikefigielski
Just got word that we'll be selling the complete R1200 AF-XiED package for $379.95!! Should have units available hopefully late next week or the week of the 23rd at the latest. When we get them they will be posted here:
http://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafo2sema.html .
We have just listed an R1100 version (you'll find them at the link above too) that has a universal tap in harness. This is because it may be as long as 6 months before we will have a plug and play harness available for the R1100. It is a simple tie in. Just 2 crimp connections and one tap connection. Eventually we'll have Posi Locks and Posi taps included but for now customers will have to source their own connectors. Soldering is not an option. This was covered in a previous post somewhere and too long of an explanation to put here. We are getting there laugh
Thanks!
Mike


OK, we finally have versions available for the R1200 Hexhead and Camhead bikes and also an F800 version. You can see and order them from this link:
http://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafo2sema.html
Thanks!!
Mike
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 11/03/13 03:32 AM

Here is a report on the installation of a BMW-AF-XIED from the BMWMOA Oilhead forum. The bike is a 2004R1100S.

Originally Posted By: racer7;905675
Some of you have no doubt followed Roger's threads on the device he has developed to cure the overly lean fuel programming of oilheads, hexheads, 650/800 twins, etc (and its being developed for more models). The devices are sold by Beemer Boneyard and you can read their comments on the item page on their site.

Today I installed one of Roger AF-XiED devices on the SO's R1100S, an 04 model that she uses as a touring and play bike and which I have farkled to make it more suitable for her touring use with comfort, lighting, now performance, and other items.

If you do any routine service on an oilhead, this is a silly simply install. Just pull the panels, lift the gas tank to the rear and plug it in, the connect 1 ground wire to a battery terminal- pretty hard to get any easier. For the major connections, one locates the oxygen sensor connector under the fuel tank, opens it up, and plug 1 end of Rogers device cable into each end of the plug, then just put it back on the bike. No hacking into factory wiring needed- this is pure plug and play. Gets positive power from the installed oxygen sensor cable hookup and has a negative wire that can go on a battery post- that's it. AFR can be adjusted through a reasonable range with a single screw if one wishes to experiment.

I expect the adaptive features of the Motronic will take a tank or two to fully adapt to the device which I installed with its default setting. Nonethless, I went for about a 50 mile test run after the install for an initial impression and the SO and I are planning a riding day tomorrow so she can comment on her impression- I am telling her none of mine and will wait to hear what she says.

I have ridden and serviced this R1100S for several years so am familiar with its factory behavior, now modified. Probably the best way I can summarize the effect of the AF-XiED is to say that it has widened and smoothed the bikes powerband so that it has become pretty similar to the K1200RS that it sits next to in the garage, the latter with a Rhine West chip to enrich fueling and a slip on, the result of which is the most pleasing wide and linear power band of any BMW I've ridden. Not that the R1100S can match the K brick for total power or torque, but qualitatively, with the AF-XiED in place one is no longer conscious of the R bike's former much narrower powerband which kept telling the rider to stay in a narrow rpm range. Now runs to redline are smooth and encouraged. The bike will pull cleanly all the way in 6th from as low as I've checked it which was 1600 rpm- try that with stock programming. Basically, it pulls clean and fast in any gear from any sane rpm, not something the stock bike will do. My brief test run today took the bike to about 110 (we live in a rural area) and I could identify no negative fueling issues.
If I had a dyno I'm sure it would show both the more linear power curve and a bit more power up top.

I'll have more comments after we get more miles on the bike but one thing I can tell you- its not going to come out- works way too well to debate. At a fraction of the cost of installing other devices like the Power Commander with only a fraction of the work. Planning to put one on my hexhead when I get time.

As you might deduce from my board name, I am no stranger to highly modified fuel injected motors, having owned a variety of such including a turbo'ed Lexus SC300 I use as a street car that makes about 400 rwhp and my former track only RX-7 that made 510 rwhp with its turbo. All of that requires extensive electronics changes- in the old days one had to develop ones own fuel maps from scratch and that took a bunch of dyno time. It was a combo of effort and cost that kept me from addressing the lean programming of the bike sooner- this device cures both issues.

The Af-XiED requires only very modest effort to correct the fundamental overly lean fuel mix of BMW bikes and greatly improves ride-ability. Highly recommended..(more to come also)
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 12/16/13 04:15 AM

Her is another LC-1 installation as an AFR monitor and another way to richen the mixture, carbs!

Quote:
first of all thank you to Roger 04rt for sharing his research and data on this and many other threads ... I have experimented using the innovate Motorsports [lc-1] product and found on my bike that running an air fuel ratio of 13.8 gives a big improvement in "driveability". this is really important to me as I am a courier and am on the bike 50/60 hours over 5 days and the lean running drove me insane.

Fuel consumption is vital to me and running 13.8 made little difference overall I think because I changed up the [gear] box quicker in the city negating the maybe 5% loss on the open road. If I had not bought the innovate product, purchasing Roger's [nightrider's AF-xied] is next best thing.

I have found that using RS throtlle bodies helps--sorry no data but perhaps this is because of the different butterfly angle. There is another but more expensive fix using carbs ... this certainly gives you more torque almost across the board for a slight increase in fuel consumption once they are set up correctly. I have been using 40mm R100 Bings for the past 15000 miles/3 months and am very happy with them, not cheap but easy to do. ...
Posted By: JamesW

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 12/16/13 06:26 AM

I thought about 40 mm Bings but they might be a tight fit on an RT. They certainly would simplify the motorcycle as in no fuel pump and no fuel pressure regulator. About the only left to the Motronic would be spark control. Then ditch the ABS and you might just end up with a nice ride.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 12/20/13 03:20 AM

Here's an example of the benefit of mixture enrichment on a bike that's had some surgery, AF-XIED on modified R1150R.

Although there's a lot of enthusiasm, it does answer some questions about the effect of lambda-shifting, whether by using an LC-1 or AF-XIED, on a bike with a more open exhaust.
RB
Posted By: LBump

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 12/20/13 03:33 AM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Here's an example of the benefit of mixture enrichment on a bike that's had some surgery, AF-XIED on modified R1150R.

Although there's a lot of enthusiasm, it does answer some questions about the effect of lambda-shifting, whether by using an LC-1 or AF-XIED, on a bike with a more open exhaust.
RB


Thank you Rodger for ALL your data and due diligence throughout the project! thumbsup thumbsup
MANY are appreciative of your efforts! I look forward to the installation on a r1200rt soon. Can't wait to feel the difference...
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 01/02/14 07:47 PM

There have been a lot of threads/discussions about Mixture Adaption on the R1100, R1150, R1200 and F800. The range of views about Mixture Adaptation, whether it exists, and its affect on Open Loop fueling, is important when considering fueling improvement products. A quick summary is that Mixture Adaptation is real and that it affects ALL fueling, especially Open Loop.

Because BMW has kept it secret there are many incomplete Motronic/BMSK operating models on the internet, in forums suggesting that Mixture Adaptation is somewhere between: 1) only for Closed Loop, 2) Only at very small throttle angles, 3) only when the throttle is rock steady, or 5) (in one case) a non-existent Urban Legend, I decided to measure the effect of adaptation and show the results. While I was in the middle of the data collection phase, I came across some original Bosch documentation which makes clear the role of Mixture Adaptation in Bosch ECUs.

The bottom line based on the measurements and documents looks like this:
1) Mixture Adaptation is real, it covers all areas of fueling and is necessary for the proper operation of our style of ECUs (Alpha-N, which uses throttle angle as a proxy for air mass/flow). The Alpha-N system is used by the Motronic MA 2.2 and 2.4, as well as all models of the BMSK.

2) The primary Mixture Adaptation Range, as measured in my tests, is +/-25% on the 2004 R1150, which I will show in a coming post. This is a large range and means that any sensor error, sensor modification, ethanol mix change, fuel pressure modification, or intake/exhaust modification can will be learned by the ECU and corrected (Bosch calls these ECUs self-learning). In other words the Open and Closed Loop fueling will revert to BMW's design as long as a stock Lambda (O2, Oxygen) sensor is installed and connected.

3) It appears that Bosch stores a Lambda Correction Factor for every cell covered by Closed Loop and that it creates three Mixture Adaptation values from this matrix of data. Two of the Mixture Adaptations affect short injection times and small TPS angles, and the other Mixture Adaptation affects all areas of the Open Loop fuel map and is intended to correct sensor errors, fuel ethanol content and fuel pressure, to name a few.

4) There are two ways to make permanent changes to fueling: 1) The best is to give the ECU a new reference (LC-1/2 or AF-XIED for BMW) so that the BMSK or Motronic can use Mixture Adaptation to richen fueling automatically, or 2) Disconnect the O2 sensor, with the many perils of that approach--in particular Limp Home mode.

That's the summary. In the next post I'm going to quote Bosch, going all the way back to the early Motronic systems, and then after that post some measurements that clearly show the effect of Mixture Adaptation.

As a preview to the measurements that will be published, in one of the tests Open Loop AFR was enriched to 12.1:1 using a fuel pressure increase and a Booster Plug. In about half an hour of riding Closed Loop at 13.8:1, the Open Loop mixture had adapted from 12.1:1, all the way to 13.7:1. Mixture adaptation made a 15% correction to the Open Loop fueling.

Next Up, Bosch's description of the Motronic fueling strategy.
RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 01/03/14 04:46 AM

Although Bosch introduced the Motronic as an integrated fueling and ignition control computer, what follows are their specific comments on fueling, related to Mixture Adaptation. It should be clear from the following excerpts that Mixture Adaptation is a key, integral part of the Motronic operation. Of particular note for me was that Bosch has been using Mixture Adaptation (or you might call it self-learning) since the mid-1980s, nearly a decade before the first Oilheads.
RB

Excerpts from Bosch Mono-Jetronic - Motronic Documentation 1985-1998
The Motronic system is based on indirect measurement of air mass, called an Alpha/n ECU system. Alpha represents the throttle angle and "n" is the engine RPM. This system of indirect measurement of air mass operates with Adaptive Mixture control and super-imposed Lambda Closed Loop control to accurately maintain a constant mixture, without any need for direct measurement of air mass.

The microprocessor is the heart of the Motronic. It is connected by address and data busses to EPROM (which contains program instructions and data tables such as the fuel map) and to RAM which serves to store the Mixture Adaptation values (adaptation: adapting to changing conditions through self-learning).

If the Motronic sees deviations from Lambda=1 in the signals from the oxygen sensor, and as a result is forced to correct the basic injection pulse for an extended duration of time, it generates mixture correction values and stores them in an internal adaptation process. From then on these values are effective for the complete fuel map and are continually updated. This adaptation process ensures consistent compensation for individual tolerances and for permanent changes in the response characteristics of engine and injection components.

The mixture adaptation program is designed to compensate for the effects of production tolerances and wear on engine and injection-system components, including sensors. The mixture adaptation system must compensate for three variables: 1) Influences due to air pressure or temperature, fuel stoichiometry (ethanol content), injector flow rate and system fuel pressure. 2) Influences related to vacuum leakage in the intake tract. 3) Influences due to variation in injector turn-on delay. These three factors are applied to three map areas. Factor #1 is applied (by multiplication) to the entire fuel map. Factor #2 is applied additively in the vicinity of idle. Factor #3 is applied additively in fuel map areas of short injection pulses.

For mixture adaptation, lambda control factors are evaluated using a weighting factor before being added to the adaptation variables.

Limp Home: All sensor signals are continuously monitored for plausibility. If a sensor signal deviates from its defined plausible range, it means that the sensor or its connector is defective. In that case the sensor signal is replaced with a substitute signal that may effect drivability. For example a non plausible air temperature sensor is replaced by the value 20 degrees C. A fault in the lambda sensor results in a shutdown of the complete closed loop adaptive system but will continue to use any past mixture adaptation values if any have been stored. (Editor's note: a shift in the lambda sensor does not cause a fault, but disconnecting the sensor does.)


Next posts: Actual measurements of mixture adaptation on a 2004 R1150.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 01/04/14 03:29 AM

Moving along with some of the measured data on Mixture Adaptation. Below is the first of several charts, showing what the Motronic does when it is in Open Loop.

Here are the important things to see in the graphs. First, there are two lines
--The solid line is a test run with the Motronic fully reset, no adaptives, fuel pressure set to 53 psi (+11% richer) and a BoosterPlug (+6% richer, could have been any IAT shift device). I took a six minute warm up ride and measured steady state idle AFR. I show that point because it is one of the first adaptives to accumulate.

--The dashed line is a second test run with the Motronic fully reset, no adaptives, fuel pressure is 53 psi but without the BoosterPlug.

In the area between times 5:10 and 5:50, both plots are idling with the Fast Idle Lever fully down. The results:

FP Increase and BP AFR: 12.1:1 Open Loop

FP Increase, no BP AFR: 13.0:1 Open Loop

So the above are Open Loop AFRs for my bike, on that day. These are the baseline Open Loop AFRs for comparison a couple posts later after 10-15 miles of riding in Closed Loop.

On the chart, you can see where I flip the switch to connect the output of my LC-1 to the Motronic, the target AFR reached in 5-10 seconds is lambda=0.94 which is about 13.8:1. During that 5-10 second period, the Motronic is building something Bosch calls Lambda Correction Factors, amounts added to Open Loop fueling to reach the target AFR. The Motronic quickly ramped the LCFs to 1.06 and 1.15 to reach the target AFR. Later, the LCFs will be converted to Mixture Adaptations by the Motronic.

I'll show the Mixture Adaptations later chart, a couple posts from now.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 01/04/14 01:04 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt

...

2) The primary Mixture Adaptation Range, as measured in my tests, is +/-25% on the 2004 R1150, which I will show in a coming post. This is a large range and means that any sensor error, sensor modification, ethanol mix change, fuel pressure modification, or intake/exhaust modification can will be learned by the ECU and corrected (Bosch calls these ECUs self-learning). In other words the Open and Closed Loop fueling will revert to BMW's design as long as a stock Lambda (O2, Oxygen) sensor is installed and connected.

...


You can't go back and edit your mistakes in this forum so I've got to admit to having mixed up numerator and denominator in the calculation of LCF range above. Because the Motronic is cutting fuel in the calculation, the paragraph should read:

2) The primary Mixture Adaptation Range, as measured in my tests, is +/-20% on the 2004 R1150, which I will show in a coming post. This is a large range and means that any sensor error, sensor modification, ethanol mix change, fuel pressure modification, or intake/exhaust modification can will be learned by the ECU and corrected (Bosch calls these ECUs self-learning). In other words the Open and Closed Loop fueling will revert to BMW's design as long as a stock Lambda (O2, Oxygen) sensor is installed and connected.
RB
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 01/04/14 01:06 PM

After getting the Open Loop AFR test runs made (chart repeated at bottom of this post), something not measured earlier, was the shift between the two curves, one with a BoosterPlug (BP) and one without. I was in a hurry so didn't take the time to locate the BP probe in the intake tract where it belongs and where I usually put it--so the results might be off by a percent. However when you compare the 13.0 AFR of the fuel pressure (FP) increase only to the 12.1 AFR of the FP plus BP, you get an AFR increase of 7% which is acceptably close to the 6% target for the BP.

As I started measuring the amount of Mixture Adaptation I got a surprise which I'll show before getting to the final results.

The chart below is a zoomed-in version of the dotted-line curve in the bottom chart. On the left of the chart you can see that the Open Loop AFR is 13.0:1. Then at 5:45 on the timeline, the switch on the LC-1 interface is connected, enabling Closed Loop. Closed Loop stays on until 6:15 for a total time in Closed Loop of about 30 seconds.

The the LC-1 was then switched to Open Loop at 6:15. My thought was I'd see what level of Mixture Adaptation had occurred in 30 seconds (about 1%). You can see what happened first when I flipped the switch to Open Loop. Because the motor was running at the time, and it was in Closed Loop, just happening to be ramping the fuel from rich to lean, it kept decreasing the fuel until the AFR reached 16.2:1. At that point, which is the limit of its Lambda Correction Factor (LCF) range, it ramped the fuel up until the LCF was at its neutral point of 1.00.

If you compare the AFR at its leanest, 16.2:1, with the pre-Closed Loop AFR of 13.0:1, you get a Lambda Correction Factor minimum of 0.80, which is a 20% cut in fueling. For the moment, I believe it is safe to assume that the LCF range is symmetrical at +/-20%.

We now know the range of LCF control: 0.80 to 1.20. Another secret of the Motronic MA 2.4 uncovered (and highly likely the MA 2.2).

Finally, if you look closely at AFR before and after the 30 second Closed Loop period, you can see a small difference, about 1%, 13.0:1 vs 13.1:1 in the Open Loop AFRs.

Next Up: A chart showing Final Adaptation results.
RB

P.S. As a side note, this is the same lower limit seen in R1200GS/GSA and F800S/GS data. Suggesting that the Bosch/BMW fueling concepts are fairly similar among all its models.



Repeated Chart from Earlier
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re:R1100 BMW-AF-XiED NOW AVAILABLE - R1200 version next week - 01/06/14 04:58 AM

Before posting the Mixture Adaptation results tomorrow, i want to discuss a Bosch chart, below, which shows another reason why Mixture Adaptation was designed as an integral part of the Motronic and BMSK fueling/spark ECUs.

As has been described, the alpha-n ECU design relies on throttle angle as an indirect measurement of air mass. And looking at the clip from Wikipedia below, you can see that Bosch's adaptive technology significantly predates Motronic and BMSK. The only real surprise is that BMW keeps this information so well hidden.

On the chart below, which is specific to the Motronic alpha-n ECU but not specific to Oilheads, you can see graphically adaptations importance:

--At low RPMs and small throttle angles a 3% change in throttle angle requires a 34% change in the amount of fuel injected to maintain a constant AFR. That means that a small TPS sensor error, or small change in air flow through the throttle body could result in a significant mixture error, leading to the conclusion that precise Mixture Adaptation is a necessity for accurate fueling at light loads.

RB

From Bosch Motronic documentation:


Mono-Jetronic (1988?1995)--from Wikipedia
Digital fuel injection. This system features one centrally positioned fuel injection nozzle. In the US, this kind of single-point injection was marketed as 'throttle body injection' (TBI, by GM), or 'central fuel injection' (CFI, by Ford).
Mono-Jetronic is different from all other known single-point systems, in that it only relies on a throttle position sensor for judging the engine load. There are no sensors for air flow, or intake manifold vacuum. Mono-Jetronic always had adaptive closed-loop lambda control, and due to the simple engine load sensing, it is heavily dependent on the lambda sensor for correct functioning.
The ECU uses an Intel 8051 microcontroller, usually with 16 kB of program memory and usually no advanced diagnostics.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/06/14 11:48 AM

Roger, thank you so much for the time and effort you are putting into this.

This has more or less answered one of my questions.
When we had the switch to ethanol-laced fuel over here I noticed an immediate increase in fuel consumption. However, after a few months of use, fuel consumption was back to pre-ethanol values.
Apparently the BMS-K (I have a 2009 RT) has "learned" how to make the best of the fuel that's available. But it gets better, and I hope you can help shed light on this.

When refueling in Switzerland (which has very high quality, ethanol-free gasoline) I notice an immediate improvement in fuel consumption and throttle response. Apparently the BMS-K is either able to adapt "on the go" to better fuel or stores information in such a way as to make such a switch very rapid.
I also noticed no improvement whatsoever with most 98RON fuels... in fact with most of them fuel consumption and throttle response actually worsen. The only notable exception is Spanish 98RON Repsol fuel which gives even better improvements than Swiss fuel... I know the theory about higher RON, ignition timing, the fact most high octane fuel actually languishes in tanks for months and hence what you get is probably worse than regular gasoline etc but I'd like to hear your take about this.

Thank you very much.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/07/14 11:52 AM

Kakugo, Interesting. When you put ethanol in, at first the mixtures were too lean, then over time they got back to wehre they were supposed to be. An explanation (a guess on my part) is that since we all shift by feel for the most part, the "weaker" engine performance before mixture adaptation, led to shifting at higher RPMs. At cruise in 6th, the mileage should have been a couple mpg better.

According to early Bosch information, the rate of LCF (lambda correction factor) adjustment is quick and the rate that the mixture adaptations are ratcheted is between 0.1 and 1.0 seconds, with its faster microprocessor perhaps faster on the BMSK.

As you suggest Octane and Mixture Adaptation don't go hand in hand UNLESS the Stoichiometric ratio of the fuel changes. That's possible given that oxygenates like ethanol are used to boost octante. Ethanols drop the stoic ratio of the fuel, leaning it out. But I guess gass companies could add other petrochemicals that boost the stoic so, that question's beyond my knowledge.
RB
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/07/14 04:04 PM

Hi roger, me again,
That's an interesting observation by Kakugo. I used to have a residence very near the Canadian boarder in northeastern Washington State and I frequently would drive or ride up to Salmo, BC just for a cup of coffee. This was when we could still get non-ethanol fuel both regular and premium grades in Washington which, come to think of it, can still be done. Anyway, I own a Ford Escape with 3.0L V6 and occasionally I would fuel up at an ESSO station near Salmo with regular 87 octane fuel and I would see my fuel economy jump from 27 mpg to 32 mpg and even higher. My '04RT would also perform much better with absolutely no tendency to exhibit a tendency to surge. Like you I have no knowledge pertaining to fuel additive packages and associated effects on engine performance but something was very different where Canadian gas is concerned.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/07/14 05:34 PM

I'll now run through a full sequence of slides that show Mixture Adaptation. These are slides of Open Loop AFR, before and after an adaptation period. It is quite remarkable really and should inform everyone as to what types of fueling modifications actually make permanent changes.

The approach I'm going to take with these is that a picture is worth a thousand words. Questions are welcome.

Here is the original slide I posted showing Open Loop AFR for two scenarios: a fuel pressure increase, and a fuel pressure plus IAT Shift device increase:


Here are the before adaptation and after adaptation results for Open Loop fueling with mixture richening caused by a fuel pressure increase. You can see that AFR was 13.0:1 after resetting the Motronic, but after a mixture adaptation period, the Open Loop and Closed Loop AFR were essentially the same: 13.8:1. To the right of the chart is a smaller one that shows the distribution of AFRs. The center is right around 13.8:1.


Next Post will be before and after Open Loop AFRs for the fuel pressure and IAT shift device scenario.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/07/14 06:37 PM

Thank you very much Roger.

I had the suspicion there was something I was missing as the RT has been able to adapt to the new fuel while my car (a 2000 Honda) has simply increased fuel consumption and has stayed there ever since.
But the Honda's fueling/ignition module is also considerably "dumber" than the BMS-K.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/07/14 09:52 PM

Below are the charts for Mixture Adaptation for the combination of the 53 psi fuel boost couple with a -20C IAT shift (using a BoosterPlug). In the first chart you can see that the reset, Open Loop AFR for the combined products were 12.1:1, that is a whopping 21% richer than stock (14.7:1). My LC-1 sets a Closed Loop AFR target of 13.8:1 and in this chart I've run Closed Loop for 15 minutes and then remeasured the Open Loop AFR. In that short time, the Open Loop AFR's mixture has been "adapted" to 13.3:1. That's not all the way to 13.8 yet but in 15 minutes adaptation has moved the Open Loop AFR by 10%.



Next I put the bike back into Closed Loop by flipping the switch on my LC-1 and rode another 15 minutes in Closed Loop at 13.8:1. Pulled over, flipped the switch to Open and measure the Open Loop AFR. I hope you're not surprised at this point that the Open Loop AFR is showing 13.7:1, nearly at the final target of 13.8.

I also hope it is clear at this point that the Motronic, has essentially fully altered the Open Loop mixture from 12.1:1 to 13.7:1 by Mixture Adaptation, and has "learned and removed" the fueling "errors" caused by the fuel pressure increase and the IAT shift device which dropped the air temperature 20 degrees centigrade. In other words, neither the FP change nor the BP had any effect on long term fueling and that it is the O2 sensor (and any shifts of it, in my case to 13.8:1) that set the Motronic's fueling.

Posted By: pathfinder

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/26/14 09:30 AM

BMW AF-XIED Prototype Test 2009 BMW R1200GS w/32k mi

Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to give feedback on the test AF-XIED I have been running on my BMW listed above. I've had lots of bikes and lots of BMW's in my 53 years of riding and one important thing I've learned is that all BMW's are not created equal. I advise my friends to always ride the BMW they plan to buy before purchase because they can vary so much in engine and transmission drivability. And sometimes you can work yourself silly trying to make them right after purchase only to finally just give up and try another one! My 09 GS is a good one,it runs and shifts really well for a bone stock bike,that's why I bought it and not others when I was searching for one. Even though my bike runs well I know from previous tuning experience on carbs and FI bikes that things can be better. You just hope you don't screw things up trying to make it better as there are lots of misinformation,old wives tales, and dark secrets and proprietary info when it comes to modern electronically controlled bikes.

I started out doing a major service on the bike before installing the devices and did before and after Dyno runs just for kicks. I reset the ECU and installed the devices running setting number 7 and took off. It didn't take long for the initial roughness to smooth out and I could really feel the improvement in throttle control. The bike pulled much smoother especially at the bottom end. Controllability at take off and small throttle openings was dramatic. I ran a couple of full tanks of ethanol free premium (I am lucky to have a station close to where I ride frequently and use it most of the time) staying on setting 7. I varied my rpm's and load frequently and ran steady at multiple speeds to give the bike as many variations as possible. Everything from just poking slowly around parking lots to 100mph plus runs. The bike just seemed to get better and better.

I finally decided it was as good as it would get on 7 so I switched to setting 8. WOW, I just didn't expect 8 to be THAT much better than 7, but it was almost immediately. It continued to improve over the next couple of tankfuls and I was a happy camper! The smoothness at all rpm's and throttle openings was so wonderful I couldn't believe it. It reminds me of some of my old well tuned carb bikes but with all the additional advantages in comfort,control and power that these new modern bikes have. The sound of the exhaust even has a much more pleasing growl to it now. I do most of my riding solo as my wife has her own bike to ride but I decided to try riding double with her on the back here in the N. GA mountains to see how it did. I rode it hard and fast and slow and pokey and it handled anything I threw at it. I even had it as low as 1500 rpm (not recommended) in 6th gear and it pulled away cleanly!

I gave setting 9 a brief try but it seemed a little too rich for me. I went back to 8 as I like the crispness of the throttle response better. I recommend folks try at least these 3 settings as bikes do vary and personal preference as to how a bike feels to the person actually riding it is most important.

As far as gas mileage goes I didn't try to precisely calculate it. The BMW computer says I'm still getting around 47mpg, pretty much same as before,but I have been riding the bike more aggressively than normal. I suspect it would get better mileage if ridden at my more normal pace. You can definitely run it in higher gears and lower rpm's than you could before and the power is there ready to go at the twist of the wrist!

I did the final Dyno run using setting 8 which was my favorite. Frankly there isn't much difference in top end torque and hp and I wasn't expecting much either. I did see a little more strength from 2500-4500 rpm. The AFR looked to be what we expected but a sniffer up the muffler is nowhere near as precise as a wideband 02 sensor mounted at the header would be. I'm no Dyno expert and Roger is looking over the results too. If we figure out more we'll share it. For what it's worth the old girl pulled 95HP and 75 TQ and sounded like she could do it all day long.

Too summarize: I have tuned carbs,powercommanders,techclusions(Dobeck) etc. But I have never had a device work as well as this and be as easy to install and setup on your bike as this is. I really appreciate the way it takes advantage of all the built in advances in engine control that BMW built into the bike. My bike is now the best running bike I have ever owned, and I have had many makes and models through the years. The BMW community owes a huge debt of gratitude to Roger and those who have helped him. He not only literally broke the code of how BMW's system ACTUALLY works but helped develop a product that all of us can use to make our bikes so much more fun to ride. The community will enjoy many years of great riding due to their hard work!

I really hated to give these back to Roger, I miss them already, as the old saying goes,"You can't go back". I will have to spend money soon!

Roland (pathfinder)
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/27/14 04:35 AM

Originally Posted By: oldpathfinder;23313008
...
To summarize: I have tuned carbs,powercommanders,techclusions(Dobeck) etc. But I have never had a device work as well as this and be as easy to install and setup on your bike as this is. I really appreciate the way it takes advantage of all the built in advances in engine control that BMW built into the bike. My bike is now the best running bike I have ever owned, and I have had many makes and models through the years. ...
Roland (Oldpathfinder)


Your efforts to log data, get before and after dyno runs, and to have the dyno operator set up loaded, steady-state tests in 4th gear from 40 mph to 100 mph will be eye opening when I can finally digest all the data you've provided. I hope to be able to post some of the charts next week.

You asked me earlier in the week if the units you buy from Beemerboneyard can be used on other BMWs. The simple answer is the module is the same for all BMWs and the R1200 cables fit any BMSK powered bike.

Many thanks, much appreciated.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/27/14 05:26 AM

A dyno run. Can't wait to see the charts.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/14/14 02:20 PM

R1100, R1150 and R1200 Alpha-N Fueling and the Dyno: Post #1

I've put together a series of fairly detailed charts on BMW Fuel Maps, Bosch Motronic Air Charge, GS-911 Engine Loading Data, and Intertial Dyno Testing. This information will only be useful to a few who read the thread but I've decided to include it because it has been hard to come by.

In particular I'd like to review the inertial dyno results from an unmodified R1200GS that was sent to me, during which they ran the GS-911 also, and got some interesting insight into what goes on in the BMSK during a dyno test. My conclusion, which I'll show in a few posts from now, is that the inertial dyno isn't a great tool, but let's park that issue for a moment.

I'm going to draw on several sources:

--Bosch Motronic Documentation for Alpha-N (RPM/TPS based fueling)
--R1100GS Fuel Table Data taken by John1100GS
--R1150 GS-911 Realtime Motronic MA 2.4 Values
--R1200 GS-911 Realtime BMSK Values
--R1200GS Dyno Data

My hope is that those riders working to improve the performance of their motorcycles will be able to review the charts in this post and a few that follow it, and use the previous Mixture Adaptation & Self Learning Cabability from earlier in this thread, to get a good idea of what might or might not be effective improvements for their own motorcycles.

The Bosch Motronic Air Charge chart, below is the ratio of actual air charge to theoretical maximum air charge. Although the chart is typical for a Motronic Alpha-N ECU, it is a good representation for the R1100, R1150 and R1200, and is consistent with the fuel table values read from the R1100GS chip. The amount of Air Charge in the cylinder is directly proportional to the Engine Load data we captured with the GS-911 during the dyno run (coming later). Notice that the maximum air charge is at mid-RPMs and is only about 85% of the possible charge. BMW developed this type of data for every motorcycle engine it produces as part of building the Fuel tables. Anyone claiming to have a replacement chip or reflash should have measured this data for themselves (I've yet to see anyone who's done this), which is time-consuming and costly.

As an example, to get a 60% Air Charge (Engine Load) at 2000 RPM you open the throttle 14 degrees, whereas to get a 60% charge at 5000 RPM you need the throttle open 35 degrees, twice as much. (I'll come back to this later since the WOT dyno run produced only a 60% load at WOT, not nearly the 80%+ load the engine is capable of.)

Air Charge Chart


The bottom chart below shows binary fueling values, read from an R11000GS Motronic Chip by John1100GS (ADVrider). (Although the R1150 and R1200 data will be different by degree, it will be similar in shape.) The surface map chart was produced by entering the data from the fuel table, into an Excel spreadsheet. The fuel table values look correct to me, compared to Bosch documentation for Motronic Alpha-N fuel maps. However, I believe the axis in the table that's labeled Load is for a vehicle with a MAP sensor so I've modified the labeling axis for the Surface Map below with my estimates of TPS position for those Loads using the above Air Charge chart. This data looks consistent also with a stock Bosch Motronic Air Charge diagram.

One of the most striking things in this data is that 2/3 of the data points are below 4700 RPM. Later I'll show that most of these values are within the area of Closed Loop operation, so if you were to install a new chip (or Re-flash the R1200), you wouldn't get different fueling since Mixture Adaptation and the Lambda Control Factors would bring you back to lambda=1 (14.7:1) unless you shift the O2 Sensor. Later I'm going to post a chart showing how little of the fuel table is exercised in a typical Dyno "pull" on an Inertial Dyno like the Dynojet 250i.
RB

Fuel Surface Map


Fuel Table Values
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/15/14 12:08 PM

R1100, R1150 and R1200 Alpha-N Fueling and the Dyno: Post #2

Earlier in the thread, Roland (Oldpathfinder) mentioned that he took his R1200GS to a Dynojet 250i to see what it did in stock condition and we've started to dissect the information from that run. Luckily for all of us, Roland and Terry also logged data during all their dyno runs with a GS-911 and therefore we have actual engine data from that time, in addition to the large set of R1150 data that we also have.

I want to point out as I did in the last post that to get a full suite of information I've used R1100GS, R1150RT, and R1200GS data. Even though the data sets come from different bikes, the similarities for this type of analysis are far greater than the differences.

Before looking at the Dyno data, take a look at a "scatter plot" of a spirited 25 mile, local & highway trip on my R1150RT (lambda=1) and then after an R1200GSA (lambda=0.94). Every diamond on the chart is an RPM/Throttle Position data point as recorded by a GS-911. Although the throttle range of the R1150 is 0 degrees to about 80 degrees, and the RPM range is 1100 to 7250,

--2/3 of the data falls into the 0 - 20 degrees throttle,
--and 2500 to 5000 RPM range (2500-4200 on the GSA after adding LC-1s).

That's where a lot of our riding is done and ideally our Dyno tests would measure the points in this range. Unfortunately, that isn't what the Dynojet 250i inertial dyno measures.



EDIT: Added chart for R1200, 45 minute local-highway ride



Below is the table of data that was read from the R1100GS by John1100GS (advrider), entered into an Excel spreadsheet (used to create the surface map in Part 1). I've added highlighting to show the area from the chart above and other areas where there's GS-911 data showing the Motronic is in Closed Loop. (Although the table isn't from an R1200GS, that model has a similar Closed Loop range of operation, perhaps larger.)

Also of note in the table is the area above 2000 RPM but below 5 degrees throttle that is NOT Closed Loop, which is a leaner area (based on LC-1 measurements) related to deceleration. This is an area prone to surging--light throttle mid RPMs.

The table has also been highlighted to show those cells that were measured during the initial R1200GS Dyno test. Of the 288 cells in the fuel matrix, the GS-911 data shows that only 9 of the fuel cells were used by the Dyno run. Only nine! This is the norm for all inertial Dyno runs.

In the next post, I'll show the Dyno information and then take a detailed look into what it measures.

Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/15/14 06:32 PM

Hi Roger,
Interesting data for sure. Reading kind of between the lines I think what you are saying is that an inertial dyno run is not representative of real life over the road performance. Thing is a dyno is only meant to measure actual HP and torque at RPM under load disregarding parameters like TPS angle, AFR, or closed/open loop ECU status. I don't think this means that inertial dyno information is any more or less meaningful as compared to data obtained by GS911 in actual over the road riding. Just different information intended to measure or determine torque and HP at RPM. Can you determine or measure actual HP and engine torque any other way other than on an inertial dyne?

I think it counter productive to attempt to directly modify the ECU in any way in an attempt to improve performance. Changing ECU input/output peripheral devices to improve performance is another matter. The wideband O2 sensor comes to mind as an input device and the fuel pressure regulator or TPS would represent an output device. Mods to the Motronic like performance chip installation should be avoided, imo.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/15/14 07:48 PM

Actually that's wrong as the TPS is an input device not an output device. I wish I had inertial dyno run data before and after I changed the fuel pressure regulator and the O2 sensor but alas, too late. True the dyno run only looked at 9 matrix data points but I'm not sure how to interpret that or assume the dyno data has any more or less meaningful data as compared to the 911 info.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/15/14 08:05 PM

Originally Posted By: JamesW
Actually that's wrong as the TPS is an input device not an output device. I wish I had inertial dyno run data before and after I changed the fuel pressure regulator and the O2 sensor but alas, too late. True the dyno run only looked at 9 matrix data points but I'm not sure how to interpret that or assume the dyno data has any more or less meaningful data as compared to the 911 info.


I think dynos can have a role, but I've got some more stuff to publish here and then some recommendations about how to get the most from a dyno session.

As I see it at the moment, there are several issues: a too lean initial start, insufficient engine load, small coverage area of the spark and fuel tables, and all testing outside the areas we normally ride.

Still, I think that there are some things that can be done: use 6th gear, apply a load prior to opening the throttle (dyno or rear wheel brake) and limit throttle travel to 20-25 degrees, etc.

I've got some more interesting stuff to post so I'm sure they'll be more inputs then.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/15/14 09:02 PM

R1100, R1150 and R1200 Alpha-N Fueling and the Dyno: Post #3

It's fortunate to have several dyno runs taken on a 2009 R1200GS. What follows is one of the runs made before adding an AF-XIED. After you get familiar with the chart, have a look at several charts which follow, in this post and the next, which use GS-911 data taken at the same time the bike was on the Dyno.

The dynamometer used for this test, a Dynoject 250i, is run by a good quality operation, with a helpful and communicative operator, the shop and equipment are well maintained. It is not my objective to call their competency (which seems high) into question. Rather, I'd like to show some improvements that can be made.

The Dynojet 250i is an inertial dyno, which means that the loading of the motorcycle is created by accelerating a weighted roller driven by the rear wheel. If the rear wheel isn't accelerating the engine experiences no load, and the load doesn't change with speed. Under normal riding conditions the engine is always working to overcome the air resistance which rises significantly with speed. I believe the shop has the ability to add a brake-load to the initial conditions but it wasn't done for these runs. The testing was all done in 4th gear, a common setup. Here is one of the measured runs.



Peak Measured Horsepower is 95 HP
Peak Measured Torque is 74 ft-lbs

When you first look at it, it seems that there is a wealth of information on horsepower, torque and AFR (air/fuel ratio). What we found though is that there is a lot going on inside the BMSK engine control unit, that needs to be understood, to make sense of the results, and the GS-911 data shows that only a small fraction of a bike's performance is tested. Thanks again to Terry and Roland for the data.

There are several conditions, not apparent in these results that were only evident from the GS-911 data. I'll list them here, and then in the next few posts look at them in detail. Then lastly I'll show the acceleration results from 4 runs without an AF-XIED and then four more with one attached on setting 8 (~13.8:1 AFR).

Conditions Measured with GS-911
1. Dynamometer Inertial-Load was only 50% on-road load.
2. Rear Wheel acceleration was twice as fast as on-road acceleration
3. Engine Load (measured by the BMSK) was ~0% at start of Dyno run. On-road engine load is 30% for same conditions.
4. Engine Load was ~60% maximum on the dyno. On-road engine load during a 4th gear WOT acceleration is ~70%.
5. AFR at the start of the dyno run was leaner than 16:1 resulting in a very lean initial acceleration. Due to the lean start, results on the inertial dyno don't reach operating AFR for about 2 seconds which is about 3500 RPM. This is a common inertial dyno starting condition. On-road AFR is 14.7:1 or 13.8:1 at the start of acceleration, depending on AF-XIED setting.
6. Of the 256+ Fuel Table cells in the BMSK, only 9 were stimulated by the dyno test run. None of the cells were in the usual riding area. (See chart in earlier post.) The same limited area of operation is true for the spark table.

The next post will show the BMSK data collected by the GS-911 for one of the dyno runs.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/17/14 02:04 PM

R1100, R1150 and R1200 Alpha-N Fueling and the Dyno: Post #4

Here's a chart showing measured lambda sensor voltage on the right O2 sensor (the left and right sensors were nearly identical) preceding and during two successive dyno tests. In each case you can see the RPMs coasting down to about 1700 rpm just before the throttle is being cranked fully open.

During the coastdown phase, the BMSK sees the deceleration and goes into its Overrun Fuel Cutoff mode. When it does the injectors are shut off, the mixture goes lean and the intake tract dries out. This shows clearly in the very low lambda sensor voltages preceding WOT.

Once the throttle is opened you can see that it takes about 2 seconds for the lambda sensor to reach 800 mV, which signals a rich mixture. This delay is caused by the time it takes for the intact tract film to be re-wetted. As a result, the acceleration at the rear wheel is slower than it should be and as a result of that the dyno under-estimates torque and HP between 2000 and 3500 rpm, an area of critical importance to us.

A way to avoid this problem would be to have the dyno set to a 15 lb-ft torque load at the engine or a load that resulted in a 30% Engine Load as reported by the GS-911. Then the dyno operator would stabilize at 1700 rpm, wait until the BMSK reported Closed Loop, then fully open the throttle. That static load would result in normal fueling just prior to WOT, and produce a higher indicated torque and HP between 1700 and 3500 RPM.

The next post will examine Engine Load (BMSK data) on the dyno vs the road.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/19/14 03:47 AM

R1100, R1150 and R1200 Alpha-N Fueling and the Dyno: Post #5

As I mentioned above, Roland and Terry collected BMSK data with the GS-911 while making 8-10 passes at a dyno lab. One of the items reported by the BMSK to the GS-911 is a parameter called Engine Load. It is reported as a percentage of the maximum torque load that the engine can produce.

From the Air Charge chart in Dyno post #1 (essentially the same information as Engine Load) you can see that 80% is typical maximum charge at WOT for our type of engine.

In addition to the GS-911 data collected on the dyno, Terry has set me dozens of test-run GS-911 files from his R1200GSA including some where he has accelerated in 4th gear at WOT--same as on the dyno.

On the chart below you can see that the max engine load on the dyno was ~63% and the max engine load on the road was ~70%. This is another way to see that the dyno is under-loading the engine due to a lower inertial load than an actual riding load. Also note that on the dyno, the engine load doesn't reach 60% until 3500 to 4000 RPM. This is another indication that less than full HP and torque is being measured.

The dyno measured a peak 95HP and 74 lb-ft torque. If you scale up those numbers by 70/63 (road load/dyno load) you get 105 HP and 83 lb-ft torque, which is the R1200GS spec. I don't know if this is coincidence or if the dyno might have gotten the right answer if it had a full riding load but I wanted to point this out.

If you look at the engine load before WOT you see that riding down the road in 4th gear, 1800 RPM yields a 35% load. The BMSK senses 0% load in the seconds before WOT on the dyno. This difference has much more bearing on the measurements than the 63 vs 70% load issue. The reason is that the BMSK commands very lean operation at light loads, resulting in an under measurement of torque below 3500 rpm. The solution to the problem is to add a small static load to the dyno (by asking the dyno operator for it ahead of time). You might even be able to apply the rear brake just before WOT, to keep the fueling where it belongs.

In the charts in Dyno post #2 you can see that most riding is in the 2000-4500 RPM range. You can get a much better measurement of torque in this range on the Dyno if you properly load the engine during the test.

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/19/14 08:36 PM

R1100, R1150 and R1200 Alpha-N Fueling and the Dyno: Post #6



In Posts #3, 4 and 5 we've seen a Dyno chart, and the leanness & low engine loads cause by the Inertial Dyno method. The chart above demonstrates a few more differences between an Inertial Dyno test and On-Road riding. The RED bars are rear-wheel acceration on the Dynamometer during the test run. The BLUE bars are rear-wheel acceleration on a level road, no wind, in 4th gear, the same as the Dyno test. The data presented here was taken by a GS-911 connected to an R1200GS during Inertial Dyno tests on an R1200GS. The Closed Loop AFR preceeding the test had been at approximately 13.8:1 in both cases with time for full Mixture Adaptation. Barometric pressure and Air Temperature were similar and close enough for these purposes.

--The first thing to look at is that the Dyno reaches a rate of acceleration at the rear wheel of 24 fpss (feet per second per second). On the road, under the same conditions the acceleration is about 12 fpss. The Dyno test is like accelerating a bike that is about half the weight of an R1200GS.

--Due to the leanness caused by deceleration (the red bars pointing downward), the Dyno doesn't reach full fueling and acceleration until 4800 RPM. On-road reaches full acceleration at 3000 RPM because on the road, the engine is fueling to overcome the air and rolling resistances of traveling 20-25 mph and therefore in Closed Loop at 13.8:1.

--Looking at the Dyno results, you can see that on the Dyno the rear-wheel acceleration stays fairly flat to 7900 RPM. This is because the resistance of the Dyno is constant at all times--the inertia of the roller. On the road, as the bike accelerates, more of the HP of the engine is used to overcome air resistance and as a result the HP left over for acceleration goes down--above 75-80 mph, it goes down quite quickly. At 6700 RPM, while the rear-wheel keeps accelerating at a high rate on the Dyno, the on-road acceleration has dropped from about 12 fpss at 5500 RPM to about 8 fpss at 6700. On the road, the engine does more work than on the Dyno at high RPMs.

The chart at the bottom of the page is the same acceleration information but equalized to 100% of the Dyno's top acceleration for the Dyno data and to 100% of On-Road's top acceleration for the On-Road data. This means both sets of data reach 100%, making them easier to compare. I've added this chart because it becomes very obvious how much better an On-Road test is at finding low-RPM torque and horsepower and also how much added load the bike experiences at high speeds due to air resistance.

--At 1950 RPM, on-road acceleration is 80% of peak acceleration. By comparison, due to leanness preceeding the measurements, the Dyno test shows only 30% of its eventual peak. From the beginning, through 4000 RPM the Dyno is underreporting the bikes true torque.

--Notice too that at 1700 RPM on-road

My next chart will show rate of acceleration for the test interval by comparing four Dyno runs on an R1200GS at 14.7:1 versus four runs at 13.8:1. All runs were on the same bike and same Dyno.
RB

Posted By: Stan Walker

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/19/14 09:05 PM

Eagerly awaiting them!

I for one appreciate all the hard work you put into this. Many thanks from me.

Stan
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/20/14 04:39 PM

R1100, R1150 and R1200 Alpha-N Fueling and the Dyno: Post #7

Over the prior six posts I've attempted to dissect just what an Intertial Dyno does and what you can expect from the measurements. As I've said a couple of times, thanks go to Roland and Terry for spending the time and money to make several runs on Roland's 2009 R1200GS before installing an AF-XIED and four more runs after. Also thanks to Terry and the very cooperative Dyno operator for taking the time to record a full set BMSK data using the GS-911, which documented every moment of the the dyno testing.

The Before tests were made with two stock O2 sensors, which means that the AFR of the motorcycle was 14.7:1 (lambda=1 to be strictly correct). The After tests were made with a pair of Nightrider AF-XIEDs installed, on setting 8 (about 13.8:1, lambda~0.94) and after the bike was ridden enough to allow for Mixture Adaptation.

Presented below are the accelerations for the eight dyno tests. Because the BMSK reports the R1200GS's speed, moment by moment, it's straightforward to calculate the acceleration of the rear wheel for the duration of the dyno test. Looking at the data table you can see that the before and after testing conditions were nearly identical. The air temperature varied during the After tests, but it didn't seem to matter, and two tests were with quite warm intake air, a disadvantage. The barometric pressure during the After testing was lower, which implies that the engine's power was slightly reduced compared to the Before testing.

The calculation takes the starting speed the instant before the throttle was opened, the starting speed the moment the throttle was closed, and divided the difference by the time (in milliseconds) between those two events. The chart below shows the results.

What the numbers show is consistent with my impression of my own bike, it accelerates faster with a richer lambda setting. (As I showed earlier, that richness propagates through the entire fueling map through Mixture Adaptation.) Here are the comparisons from the charts.

Average Acceleration: 19% better at 13.8:1
Two Best Accelerations: 14% better
Best Before (lean) to Worst After (richer): 8% better

I would not conclude from these dyno numbers that a richer mixture leads to X% better performance, but it seems clear that the acceleration of Roland's R1200GS at WOT is significantly better with the richer mixture that it was with the stock lean fueling, which is what his butt dyno told him right away.

RB

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 02/22/14 04:36 PM

I've been helping Dave debug a running issue on his R1200GS. As we did that he took several cold-start logs from his R1200GS. After we worked out his issue (coils and right-cable adjustment), I went back and looked over some of the logs.

As everyone knows, the Evap Canister vent runs only to the Left TB (throttle body). I think the activity of the BMSK is interesting during the first 6 or 7 minutes after a cold start. Looking at the chart below:

The left side O2 sensor goes Closed Loop after only 30 seconds, the right side was Closed Loop in about a minute. One heated up faster than the other most likely, which is normal. But the bike was fully Closed Loop in under 60 seconds.

The RPM stabilies quickly at just under 1400 RPM and the BMSK reduces that to 1200 RPM over the seven minutes of the test.

On this particular bike the LCFs (lambda control factors, which are short term fuel trims) are running together at about 1.1 (meaning the BMSK is adding 10% to the fuel table value. What's very interesting is that when the Evap Vent opens, the bike seems to get more air and fuel--the Left LCF drops to 0.9 (20% less fuel) and the idle actuator reduces (less air needed because the vent is open). If you study the second opening of the tank vent, there is again a big change in the Left LCF, and an even bigger reduction in the Idle Actuator motor.

The lesson is that to Cold Start and Idle well, the Idle Actuators have to be effective over their whole range (0-256); there needs to be a correct amount of free play in the throttle cables with the motors fully retracted; and the left/right throttle cables need to be adjusted for TB balance at a point where both throttles have lifted of the Idle Actuator stops.

The BMSK is a very active ECU during starting.
RB

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/14/14 10:23 AM

A few weeks ago I stumbled on the time required to reset the Motronic when you pull Fuse 5 or remove the battery cable. I use to think it was 15-30 seconds but now realize it is several minutes. 10 minutes is a certain time I believe.

So that this little tidbit of knowledge isn't lost, I'm linking it here: Motronic Reset Time 10 Minutes.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/25/14 03:25 AM

I've had a Beemer Boneyard version of the EJK on my workbench for several months, planning to check it out. I've been curious about what it does with the O2 sensor and finally got to it this week.

Techlusion products work by monitoring one of the fuel injectors, measuring how often the injector is triggered (to calculate engine RPM) and the injector's pulse-width (to calculate Engine Load, wider pulses are delivered when the engine is producing more torque). Injectors have battery voltage on one of their two electrical terminals, and when the Motronic wants the injector to squirt fuel, it grounds the other terminal.

What the Techlusion does to add fuel is to lengthen the time the injector is grounded by the Motronic. To do that the EJK has to wait until the Motronic ungrounds the injector, and then instantly re-ground it.

The EJK has four control modes:

Light cruise (green LEDs): Lengthens short injection pulses
Acceleration (yellow): Lengthens medium injection pulses
WOT (red): Lengthens long injection pulses
Techlusion Closed Loop mode (green and blue): The maximum RPM at which Motronic Closed Loop operates properly. Above that RPM the EJK disables normal Closed Loop and enters Techlusion Closed Loop. Techlusion Closed Loop is essentially Open Loop which is what allows settings 1-3 to do their work and add fuel.

Although each of the 4 control modes has 15 settings, none of the settings has a specific meaning. Modes 1-3 have settings that range from add a little to a lot. There is no way to know how much fuel you're adding but Techlusion sends it to you set to their recommended values. (In the Techlusion metaphor, it's like adjusting a carburetor. Tweak it till you like it.) The Techlusion box shows a chart with cruise AFR at 13.4:1 and wot AFR at 12.6:1. The 13.4:1 cruise AFR is very rich.

Mode 4 also has many settings but the documentation doesn't tell you at what RPM Closed Loop is disabled for a particular setting. (In fact, the documentation leads you to believe that the EJK is doing something useful with the O2 input.) It comes set on number 1, the lowest RPM which was about 1800 RPM on my bike. This means normal-Closed Loop is working only at idle RPMs.

From the tests I ran, I observed that rather than simply disconnecting the O2, the EJK sends the Motronic a lean signal. It sets the voltage going to the Motronic to about 100 mV. Then, every 1.5 seconds the EJK briefly pulses the O2 voltage sent to the Motronic to 500 mV. This is supposed to fool the Motronic into believing an O2 is present & functioning, thereby avoiding an error code, but not allowing the normal Closed Loop to change fueling.

What I observed was the Motronic, seeing a mostly low (lean) signal, enrichs the mixture slowly to its maximum value of Mixture Adaptation. As a result, after about 30 seconds at steady RPM, I measured an AFR that had adjusted from 14.7:1 (normal Closed Loop) to 11.5:1, way too rich. If you look at the bottom graph on chart below you can see:

--the O2 sensor warming up from 450 mV to 800 mV (rich) during a cold start sequence
--then entering normal Closed Loop with an AFR of 14.7:1
--then with the RPM raised entering Techlusion Closed Loop
--then with the RPM back down, normal Closed Loop

You can also see the mixture on the top graph. (The two charts were measured at different times so the graphs aren't meant to line up.)

So the EJK is the same-old Techlusion with a twist. You can add fuel in steps but with no concrete idea of how much you're adding, and with your ECU operating Open Loop. If what you want is to turn your electronic fuel injection into a carburetor, this product can help you do it. And if you do choose it, it would be best to reset the Motronic and leave the O2 disconnected.

RB


Posted By: Bud

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/25/14 07:56 PM

Roger

Hooked up my unit yesterday. No power.

Does it matter which one of the white wires is used for power?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/25/14 08:05 PM

Yes, one of the white wires in the O2 cable is switched ground, the other is +12.

And one other note, +12 is only on that white wire when the fuel pump is running.
Posted By: Bud

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/25/14 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Yes, one of the white wires in the O2 cable is switched ground, the other is +12.

And one other note, +12 is only on that white wire when the fuel pump is running.


So are you saying only one of the white wires will work for power and if my unit has no power I need to switch the tap to the other white wire????
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/25/14 08:22 PM

Yes, that's correct. As further clarification, that white wire is the one on pin4 of the O2 connector.
Posted By: Bud

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/25/14 09:01 PM

One other question. Could I attach the RED wire to my fuse block for power instead? It's only hot when the key is on.
Posted By: Bud

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/26/14 02:20 AM

Since I'm lazy, I took the tank off and pulled the red wire out of the cover so that I could wire it directly to my aux fuse block. It is only on when the key is on as I wired it to a relay.

Everything seems to be working now so I will have to ride a little to see how it actually responds.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/26/14 02:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Bud
One other question. Could I attach the RED wire to my fuse block for power instead? It's only hot when the key is on.


Yes, that's fine.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/26/14 12:23 PM

I've had a Beemer Boneyard version of the EJK on my workbench for several months, planning to check it out. I've been curious about what it does with the O2 sensor and finally got to it this week.

Techlusion products work by monitoring one of the fuel injectors, measuring how often the injector is triggered (to calculate engine RPM) and the injector's pulse-width (to calculate Engine Load, wider pulses are delivered when the engine is producing more torque). Injectors have battery voltage on one of their two electrical terminals, and when the Motronic wants the injector to squirt fuel, it grounds the other terminal.

What the Techlusion does to add fuel is to lengthen the time the injector is grounded by the Motronic. To do that the EJK has to wait until the Motronic ungrounds the injector, and then instantly re-ground it.

The EJK has four control modes:

Light cruise (green LEDs): Lengthens short injection pulses
Acceleration (yellow): Lengthens medium injection pulses
WOT (red): Lengthens long injection pulses
Techlusion Closed Loop mode (green and blue): The maximum RPM at which Motronic Closed Loop operates properly. Above that RPM the EJK disables normal Closed Loop and enters Techlusion Closed Loop. Techlusion Closed Loop is essentially Open Loop which is what allows settings 1-3 to do their work and add fuel.

Although each of the 4 control modes has 15 settings, none of the settings has a specific meaning. Modes 1-3 have settings that range from add a little to a lot. There is no way to know how much fuel you're adding but Techlusion sends it to you set to their recommended values. (In the Techlusion metaphor, it's like adjusting a carburetor. Tweak it till you like it.) The Techlusion box shows a chart with cruise AFR at 13.4:1 and wot AFR at 12.6:1. The 13.4:1 cruise AFR is very rich.

Mode 4 also has many settings but the documentation doesn't tell you at what RPM Closed Loop is disabled for a particular setting. (In fact, the documentation leads you to believe that the EJK is doing something useful with the O2 input.) It comes set on number 1, the lowest RPM which was about 1800 RPM on my bike. This means normal-Closed Loop is working only at idle RPMs.

From the tests I ran, I observed that rather than simply disconnecting the O2, the EJK sends the Motronic a lean signal. It sets the voltage going to the Motronic to about 100 mV. Then, every 1.5 seconds the EJK briefly pulses the O2 voltage sent to the Motronic to 500 mV. This is supposed to fool the Motronic into believing an O2 is present & functioning, thereby avoiding an error code, but not allowing the normal Closed Loop to change fueling.

What I observed was the Motronic, seeing a mostly low (lean) signal, enrichs the mixture slowly to its maximum value of Mixture Adaptation. As a result, after about 30 seconds at steady RPM, I measured an AFR that had adjusted from 14.7:1 (normal Closed Loop) to 11.5:1, way too rich. If you look at the bottom graph on chart below you can see:

--the O2 sensor warming up from 450 mV to 800 mV (rich) during a cold start sequence
--then entering normal Closed Loop with an AFR of 14.7:1
--then with the RPM raised entering Techlusion Closed Loop
--then with the RPM back down, normal Closed Loop

You can also see the mixture on the top graph. (The two charts were measured at different times so the graphs aren't meant to line up.)

So the EJK is the same-old Techlusion with a twist. You can add fuel in steps but with no concrete idea of how much you're adding, and with your ECU operating Open Loop. If what you want is to turn your electronic fuel injection into a carburetor, this product can help you do it. And if you do choose it, it would be best to reset the Motronic and leave the O2 disconnected.

RB

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/15/14 03:55 AM

I ran into an interesting problem with my Innovate Motorsports LC-1. My +12 volt lead, which is tapped from the lambda sensor heater became intermittent because I used a cheap fork-style tap. I fixed the problem but notice that the 10 programmed values for voltage, lambda and sampling time had all been reset to default values due to the intermittent. I'd been riding for a week that way and couldn't put my finger on it but knew something was wrong. Fixed the tap and reprogrammed the values.

Then I notified that the unit was acting strangely, outputting more voltage than I programmed. I knew from past experience that to fix it I would need to perform a Free-Air Calibration which requires removal of the O2 sensor from the exhaust. That's not quick and can risk damaging the O2 sensor. So ... I tried something different:

1) Opened the throttle fully
2) Connected a vacuum cleaner to the exhaust outlet at the back of the bike
3) Bumped the rear wheel in gear until one of the cylinders reached the point where the exhaust and intake valves overlap--air started flowing, left it on. The exhaust and Wideband O2 was now full of fresh air.
4) Powered up the LC-1 by jumping the fuel pump relay and pressing the LC-1 calibration button. 5 seconds later calibration was complete.

Free-Air cal is speced for once a year. This made it fast and easy to accomplish.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/15/14 04:32 AM

Hi Roger, now THAT is absolutely ingenious! I would never have thought of that.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/15/14 11:01 AM

Hi Roger

Great !

Being lazy with all the job done last year on my bike, this spring, I hesitated before doing free air calibration. Finally, I didn't do it.

if the bike works ok, is there a way to know if it has to be done or not ?

Thanks
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/15/14 12:36 PM

That's a good question, it is hard to tell. I was watching my bike on the PC and spotted it in the data. These LC-1s can be great for a long time, then get "upset" by something and lose their mind. I use the GS-911 and Logworks software to monitor it a couple times a year.

Now that I have an easy way to do it, I will perform the cal a couple times a year.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/15/14 01:22 PM

Is it easy to know when one of the cylinders reached the point where the exhaust and intake valves overlap without taking out the valve covers or you do it by the sound of the air coming in from the intake tube ? Or by the sound of the vacuum cleaner which is changing when you reach the overlap ?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/15/14 01:44 PM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Is it easy to know when one of the cylinders reached the point where the exhaust and intake valves overlap without taking out the valve covers or you do it by the sound of the air coming in from the intake tube ? Or by the sound of the vacuum cleaner which is changing when you reach the overlap ?


I pulled the airbox cover. When the valve overlap occured I could easily hear it in the intake but also the vacuum motor speed changed suddenly.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/15/14 02:02 PM

Thanks a lot for all these tips. It saves us a lot of hassle.

By the way, I never resolved the pinging problem on my bike. Now, i use the low octane CCP so it is mostly gone. During a trip, i met 3 other guys which have the same problem with their 1150s They use octane booster when they are fueling their bikes.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/15/14 07:45 PM

Forget pulling the spark plugs, don't need to. The free air cal was the one thing I didn't like about the LC-1. I just hate removing the exhaust system and then the O2 sensor. Thanks so much for this tip. thumbsup
Posted By: Boffin

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/15/14 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Thanks a lot for all these tips. It saves us a lot of hassle.

By the way, I never resolved the pinging problem on my bike. Now, i use the low octane CCP so it is mostly gone. During a trip, i met 3 other guys which have the same problem with their 1150s They use octane booster when they are fueling their bikes.


I fixed the occasional pinging on my 1150RT with earplugs.

Andy
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/18/14 02:03 AM

Hi Andy

With pink CCP, the pinging was so loud my wife was asking me what was this noise during acceleration at 80 mph. She was afraid we couldn't return at home with the bike. It wasn't really safe for the motor and I don't want to clean the carbon in the heads and on top of the pistons.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/19/14 02:00 AM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt;952581
I ran into an interesting problem with my Innovate Motorsports LC-1. My +12 volt lead, which is tapped from the lambda sensor heater became intermittent because I used a cheap fork-style tap. I fixed the problem but notice that the 10 programmed values for voltage, lambda and sampling time had all been reset to default values due to the intermittent. I'd been riding for a week that way and couldn't put my finger on it but knew something was wrong. Fixed the tap and reprogrammed the values.

Then I notified that the unit was acting strangely, outputting more voltage than I programmed. I knew from past experience that to fix it I would need to perform a Free-Air Calibration which requires removal of the O2 sensor from the exhaust. That's not quick and can risk damaging the O2 sensor.


The Free-Air calibration did not completely restore my LC-1 to perfect operation after my +12V tap failed. After some internet searching I found a more comprehensive procedure that worked. Below is the full amended process. In addition to a vacuum cleaner I build a switch with spade terminals to use in place of the fuel pump relay. Since my LC-1 is powered on the fuel pump circuit (in place of the stock O2 sensor heater) I needed to be able to switch that circuit on without running the bike.

1. Open throttle fully and lock it at WOT
2. Connect a vacuum cleaner to the exhaust and switch in on
3. Put the transmission in gear rock the engine with the rear wheel until one cylinder is near the top of the exhaust stroke and both intake and exhaust valves are open. At this point you have fresh air flowing through the exhaust.

4. Replace the fuel pump relay with a switch.
5. Connect your PC to the LC-1 and launch LM Programmer
6. Turn the fuel pump switch on. Wait for the LC-1 to warm up (red led ON)
7. In LM Programmer press the Reset Calibration function. This clears all heater, free air and other calibration values. There is no confirmation dialog. Close LM programmer.

8. Turn the fuel pump switch off for 30 seconds.
9. Turn the fuel pump switch on
A) the Red LED flashes slowly while the unit warms up
B) next the Red LED flashes quickly for about 20 seconds, it is performing a Heater Cal
C) next the Red LED turns off for 3 seconds, it is performing a free-air Cal
D) next the Res LED turns on fully, signaling that all is well and the LC-1 is fully reset and calibrated

At this point you're done. The whole process took 15 minutes, start to finish.
-remove the vacuum
-replace the fuel pump relay
-relax the throttle
-put the transmission in neutral

At test ride confirmed good as new performance.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/31/14 01:23 PM

Does anybody tried Free air o2 calibration with a vacuum cleaner as Roger mentioned earlier ?

I tried it yesterday and it didn't work for me. Logworks and AFR meter on my bike show me strange results since I've done it.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/31/14 02:50 PM

It finally works

I used custom settings instead of 14,7 and I remembered I had problems each time I used this setting.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 11/30/14 07:03 PM

There are always questions popping up about when the R1150 runs in Closed Loop and when it's in Open Loop. Although the research in this thread has shown that the distinction isn't critical, because the Motronic and BMSK use a Mixture Adaptation strategy to use Closed Loop fueling data to correct Open Loop errors, it is important to know when considering a fueling enhancement strategy (LC-2 vs PCV vs ... ). For example, if you boost fuel pressure, Closed Loop "learning" "sees" the extra fuel and removes the benefit; or if you change the Motronic "chip" for one with a "richer" map, Closed Loop learning also removes the extra fuel. And for some of us, it's just interesting to know.

During the course of this Wideband O2 project many riders have sent GS-911 data, from a mix of R1150s--GSs & RTs, single and dual spark. Among other things the data includes information on TPS, RPM and Closed/Open Loop. That data has been used to create an accurate map of when the R1150 is in Closed and Open Loop. (LC-1 data taken from an R1100 shows that it works much the same as the R1150.)

Summary
If you don't want to read any further, the simple answer is that once an R1150 is warmed-up, the Motronic (and BMSK for R1200) runs Closed Loop most of the time, except when you're making large changes to the throttle. In fact, data presented below shows that the Motronic runs in Closed Loop to 50% throttle and to 5600 RPM (and likely higher), which is up to 60-70% power.

Just how much of the time is the bike in Closed Loop? The data below, from 4 R1150GS riders and 1 R1150RT shows:

--70% of riding was in Closed Loop
--99% of all the data points taken were within the Closed Loop area (<47 degrees throttle, <5600 RPM)
--Surprisingly, the R1150 is not in Closed Loop for light loads, coinciding with the most surge-prone area of riding.

So if your objective is to run with richer mixtures, you have to richen Closed Loop fueling. This can be done with a Wideband O2 System like the Innovate LC-2 or a Wideband emulator like the Nightrider AF-XIED.

The other thing to know, is that the Motronic actively applies what it learns in Closed Loop to the entire fueling map through a process of Mixture Adaptation, which I've documented earlier in this thread.

Detailed Analysis
Recently there have been some discussions regarding which parts of the R1150 fuel map have Closed Loop operations and which don't. As mentioned above, several riders have sent data from their GS-911s and it occured to me that this data could be put together into one large file and analyzed.

The Motronic reports (and the GS-911 logs) a new set of operating data roughly twice per second. Each data point has the following information, including TPS angle, RPM and whether the Motronic is in Closed or Open Loop. This can be seen in the next chart.



Using that data, the plot below has a point for each TPS/RPM pair from each line of the GS-911 log for 5 R1150GS/RT riders, both Single and Dual spark bikes. The points were then color-coded depending on the state of the Closed/Open Loop indicator.

On this chart the Blue points are Closed Loop and the Yellow Points are Open Loop. This let's you see several things:

--The maximum TPS with a Closed Loop point--47 degrees
--The maximum RPM with a Closed Loop point--5600 RPM (may not be the maximum)
--That there are Open Loop data points within the Closed Loop boundaries.
--70% of all points are Closed Loop
--99% of all points are within the Closed Loop area



In the next chart, I've zoomed in on the Closed Loop area up to 36 degrees throttle and up to 5600 RPM (there was only one point greater than 36 degrees throttle). All the points, Closed and Open Loop are Blue on this chart. This is the area where most riders do almost all of their riding according to this data. The reason for the red line will be clear in a moment.



For this last chart the Open Loop data points have been removed so that only the Closed Loop data points are plotted.

This shows a very surprising result: although the Motronic is in Closed Loop at idle and up to about 1400 RPM, the Motronic is not in Closed Loop in much of the small-throttle-angle area of the map. What you can see is a diagonal line beyond which the Motronic stays Open Loop.

Most of us believed that the Motronic was Closed Loop only at small throttle angles. This chart clearly shows that it is Open Loop for light loads. My estimate looking at load charts is that this area corresponds to <20% engine load. (For comparison, the engine load at idle is about 15%.)



Past measurements of AFR in this area of the map have shown it to be a leaner area than Closed Loop with an AFR of about 15.2:1. In this area, if you twitch the throttle up a bit, the Motronic enriches the mixture; and if you twitch it closed, the Motronic leans-off the mixture. This means that on top of a basic leaness, the ECU also amplifies any throttle movements by going from leaner to richer to leaner--this would feel a bit "surgy".

Why did BMW make this area Open Loop on the Motronic (it is Closed Loop on the R1200's BMSK)? Who knows. A guess would be that this was an area where it was fueled as a "deceleration" area and that the Lean AFR was to save fuel or maybe reduce exhaust popping.

So that's the picture for Motronic Closed/Open Loop.
RB
Posted By: greiffster

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/01/14 02:35 PM

Roger,
Great stuff, as usual. thumbsup
Posted By: terryofperry

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/02/14 02:04 AM

Originally Posted By: greiffster
Roger,
Great stuff, as usual. thumbsup


That 1150 will really come alive with an AFXIED Mike, especially in the Dillard area next Spring.

Be well.

Terry
Posted By: greiffster

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/02/14 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: terryofperry
Originally Posted By: greiffster
Roger,
Great stuff, as usual. thumbsup


That 1150 will really come alive with an AFXIED Mike, especially in the Dillard area next Spring.

Be well.

Terry


It worked like a charm in Maggie Valley. thumbsup
Posted By: terryofperry

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 12/02/14 06:04 PM

Excellent Mike, hope to see ya in Dillard.
Terry
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/10/15 05:00 PM

Although this is a forum for Oilheads, many are following the Wideband O2 project so I'm adding this report here as well as posting it in the Wethead section.
RB

Originally Posted By: GeorgeKingGeorge;25720061
Cold start data log for stock sent via email


... [then later] AF-XIED units received.


George's bike is an R1200GS LC (W) and he has offered to ride with the AF-XIEDs connected and logging data to his GS-911 Wifi.

It took me a while to get to analyzing the GS-911 information but I?ve gotten through it. The bottom line is that the AF-XIED is performing as it should. The key points:

1) The AF-XIED output is driving the BMSK correctly. The Lambda Sensor voltages are proper (200-800 mV).
2) The distribution of voltages measured by the BMSK is also correct?very nicely distributed between 200 and 800 mV.
3) The amount of time spent Closed Loop is high (newer model) and it is also correct.
4) There are no sensors that are displaying unexpected values.

There was only one real discovery, that is that the average Lambda Sensor Voltage while the bike was in Closed Loop operation was higher than I?m used to seeing?about 650 mV with the unit set on 8. (Can you compare the settings to the photo I sent?) This average voltage measured isn?t a function of the AF-XIED. It is based on The amount of time that the BMSK is reporting voltages near 800 mV versus the amount of time at 200 mV. What it means is that the bias point is perhaps 0.5-1% higher than the setting selected, indicating that the mixture is slightly richer than target (0.1-0.2 AFR). Because everything else is operating as it should, the higher average voltage isn?t an issue at all, more a curiosity to me.

The GS-911 on the R1200GSW reports different types of realtime values compared to the R1200GS. I?m working with Hexcode to understand why some realtime values that I?m used to seeing are missing. For example, if it reported the Lambda Control Factors (short term trims) we?d have a little more insight. It does report two injection pulse lengths for the GSW, compared to a one (base time) for the GS. Looking at the two pulse times on the GSW data, it looks correct and the differences side-to-side are small and reasonable.

Next steps for you would be to ride for a couple tanks of gas on setting 8, then a couple on setting 9, then a couple of settings 7 and 6. I realize this isn?t the best time of the year for this type of riding so you can keep the beta units as long as you feel like trying them.

Although I see no reason why the GSW won't benefit, the real question is this: now that we know the AF-XIEDs are doing what they are supposed to do, how does the R1200GSW respond to the fuel that gets added. In the case of many BMW motorcycles, there is a significant improvement in smoothness, roll-on torque, etc. Setting 6, 7, or 8 usually transforms the feeling of the ride. We will need to hear from several riders of GSWs to gain that insight.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/17/15 03:52 AM

I've been working on fueling with the owner of an R1200GS LC. He also has a GS-911 Wifi so is able to log realtime values.

The GS LC uses a fly-by-wire throttle, which means that you turn the throttle control on the right handle bar and the computer controls how far to open the TB butterfly. Below is a chart showing how far the BMSK opens the throttle on the vertical axis, based on where the rider positions the throttle control on the horizontal axis. This was an easy ride so the data only shows up to about 40% throttle.

There are several interesting things you can see:

--The sensitivity of the throttle is lower at small throttle angles, which should make the throttle easier to control.

--At idle, closed throttle, the computer opens the throttle up to 15% and varies it based on conditions.

--At small throttle settings at the handlebar, there are a wide range of possible throttle valve openings. How the throttle at 10% and the BMSK may use values of throttle opening between 4 and 7% (or degrees, not sure yet which units it uses)

I think this chart makes it easy to see that this bike's power control has new dimensions compared to R1150s and R1200s.

Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/17/15 05:42 AM

Interesting info Roger. Have you yourself ridden one of the new water cooled machines?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/18/15 01:05 PM

Originally Posted By: JamesW
Interesting info Roger. Have you yourself ridden one of the new water cooled machines?


I did test ride a 2013 R1200GS. I really liked the bike but found the throttle twitchy compared to my 04 RT running at lambda=0.94, which now has a very smooth throttle. That test ride led my to conclude that I wouldn't move to a Wethead until there was a GS-911 for it, which would allow me to experiment with mixture.

BTW, ride mode on the GS LC for the throttle data above was DYNAMIC.
Posted By: mneblett

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 05/04/15 12:40 AM

Another R1150 report.

I installed an AF-XIED unit on my 2004 R1150RT-P. After an initial issue with grounding that Roger helped my find, the bike has run well. The unit is set on "7" and I'm near the end of the second tank of fuel.

One thing I had read about but was a bit skeptical as there was a certain amount of "butt dyno" to it, was the report that the bike can be ridden one gear higher than before. I have been surprised by the number of times I've looked down and found that indeed I was a gear higher than "usual" -- truly completely unaware that I was up a gear. I normally ride at ~4K rpm, but I've also noted the bike is much more pleasant to ride when the rpm's are down around 3K (and even down into the mid-2's).

This weekend my wife and I rode motorcycle safety escort for the Wash, DC version of the Avon Breast Cancer Walk. I took the RT-P instead of the RTW because I felt the RT-P was built/geared exactly for this sort of duty. Totally flawless operation in all conditions -- cold morning start to endless hot idling in 80F temps to zipping around DC traffic between assignments.

A quite positive initial impression. Now looking at a pair of these for the wife's '12 RT, which is rather cold-blooded and also "jetted" lean during normal operation.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/15/15 02:33 PM

Here is some useful data on the Oil Temperature Sensor. I would post it here but I don't know how to add a table and would appreciate advice on how to do it.

R1100/R1150 Oil Temperature and RID Information

Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/15/15 06:22 PM

Thanks for the added table. smile
Posted By: greiffster

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/15/15 06:40 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Thanks for the added table. smile


You just keep doing all the good work on these Oilheads.... and I'll help load pictures. grin

Interesting the temp range for 5 bars on the RID vs 4 or 6. No wonder mine always sits right at 5.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/15/15 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: greiffster
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Thanks for the added table. smile


You just keep doing all the good work on these Oilheads.... and I'll help load pictures. grin

Interesting the temp range for 5 bars on the RID vs 4 or 6. No wonder mine always sits right at 5.


There were 24 temps to set and resistances to measure so I wasn't thinking much while I was recording data. I went back and confirmed several of the measurements and the table is what I got, even a second time.

Because I was using a 10K pot it was hard to set it to +/-5 ohms for the hot temperatures but it was stable once I had it set.

Perhaps the RID is built that way so that we don't see the Oil Temp moving all over the place. Still though the 180 to 230 window is pretty big.
Posted By: Andrew Harmsworth

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/22/15 12:04 PM

I would welcome some advice, I have a single spark 20011150RT and have been trying to understand the content of this thread, I must admit while I have pulled the gearbox, replaced the clutch, balanced the carbs, etc the electronics of the fuel injection are more of a black art to me.
I am looking to eliminate light load surging which is mainly evident when going with the flow in traffic at low speeds, light load and 2-4k rpm it feels like it missies a beat every now and then. So after a full mechanical tune up I am thinking the bike would benefit form a bit more fuel and sounds like the classic issue of surging on the single spark model . As a UK bike it runs without the 10% Ethanol mix you get stateside?
While trying to understand the detail in the tread, I think the most suitable thing for me bearing in mind that I am not able to plot graphs or edit fuel maps is the addition of the AF-XIED device as a plug and play improvement the fulling type scenario, but really wanted to lean on the knowledge of those who have had more experience with this than me?
Posted By: greiffster

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/22/15 12:47 PM

Andrew,
The motronics is really a black art. I like to let guys like Roger do all the heavy lifting and then enjoy the fruits of their labor. grin. I'd go get an AF-XiED right now, install it, set it to 8, and go ride the heck out of that bike. That's what I did. Without knowing too much, it sounds like you have got that bike tuned where it needs to be and have the classic lean surge.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/22/15 09:13 PM

Just got back from first ride on '93 R1100RSL after installation of Innovate Motor Sports LC-2 and all I can say is fantastic and I should have done it a couple years ago. Been riding with the O2 sensor disconnected and that was OK but this is better and i know the Motronic is happy as well. I couldn't resist programing for 13.2:1 AFR. Maybe a bit rich but not as rich as 12.9:1 on my '04 R1150RT which just makes the bike fantastic for smoothness and power output.

Oh, and big thanks to Roger for his insight and interest in our bikes, he helped and without him riding my oilheads ('04 R1150RT with LC-1 & '93RSL with LC-2) would not be the same.
Posted By: TheOtherLee

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/22/15 10:17 PM

Quote:
Oh, and big thanks to Roger for his insight and interest in our bikes, he helped and without him riding my oilheads ('04 R1150RT with LC-1 & '93RSL with LC-2) would not be the same.
Hear, hear!
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/24/15 01:08 PM

I installed a LC-1 in my R150RT and each time I tried to change the AFR with my laptop, I had problems. I have to do a free ait calibration each time I tried to play with the AFR settlings and sometimes it was ok. The problem I have when I try to play with the AFR settings is after I do that, the LC-1 become crazy and AFR constantly jump from 7.4 to 22 . After all this nightmare, I decided to use a booster plug with disconnected O2 sensor. Comments from James tempted me to try again to resolve this problem. My LC1 is perhaps broken.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/24/15 02:06 PM

Originally Posted By: legarem
I installed a LC-1 in my R150RT and each time I tried to change the AFR with my laptop, I had problems. I have to do a free ait calibration each time I tried to play with the AFR settlings and sometimes it was ok. The problem I have when I try to play with the AFR settings is after I do that, the LC-1 become crazy and AFR constantly jump from 7.4 to 22 . After all this nightmare, I decided to use a booster plug with disconnected O2 sensor. Comments from James tempted me to try again to resolve this problem. My LC1 is perhaps broken.


The LC-1s have been known to be twitchy. I had a problem once when my power was intermittent and thought I'd lost it. But it's been working now for more than a year. I even get good calibration using the vacuum cleaner method.

From everyone I've spoken to, the LC-2 (a different design) is very stable. If you get one, make sure you get the 3' cable for the O2, not the 8' (although that does work, it's just a lot of extra cable).
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/24/15 03:39 PM

Hi Roger

I'll try again the vacuum cleaner method calibration.

The LC2 interest me but low AFR like 13.5 always means more pinging with my bike. As i'm not really tempted to do a carbon cleaning of the pistons (as I suppose) I hesitate. Using BP with no O2 sensor give me better results than stock but some pinging is still there but more less than 13.5 AFR setting with the LC1 when it worked.

When the temperature is near 70 F, pinging is near nonexistent but over 80 F this is another thing. Sometimes i'm wondering if oil temp sensor is working ok. I could test it with the values you published sometimes ago.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/24/15 03:41 PM

Originally Posted By: legarem
I installed a LC-1 in my R150RT and each time I tried to change the AFR with my laptop, I had problems. I have to do a free ait calibration each time I tried to play with the AFR settlings and sometimes it was ok. The problem I have when I try to play with the AFR settings is after I do that, the LC-1 become crazy and AFR constantly jump from 7.4 to 22 . After all this nightmare, I decided to use a booster plug with disconnected O2 sensor. Comments from James tempted me to try again to resolve this problem. My LC1 is perhaps broken.


I started down this road 3 or more years ago with my '04RT trying to improve performance issues caused by too lean operation. Built my own booster plug, experimented with different cat code plug configurations, installed a Techlusion and on and on. Then this thread began after Roger came on the scene and if he hadn't I would by now have parted company with my '04RT and would never have acquired my pristine '93RSL. I was desperate. If I were you I would not give up on Innovate Motor Sports and I would even go so far as to bite the bullet on the LC-1 if it's not under warranty (1year) and just buy an LC-2 because it's worth it and the only correct way to go where the Motronic is concerned in my very humble opinion. Oh, and I too have great success with the vacuum cleaner method for free air calibration. I wish the LC-2 had been available sooner because it is so simple to install with much less wiring. I am even thinking about retiring my LC-1 for this reason. Hmmmm, might even make you a deal you can't refuse on a pristine LC-1 if you're interested. I would think the richer mix (13.5) would mean less pinging not more. Have you tried Techroline treatments? How do your secondary plugs look if you have the dual plug model that is. I doubt fuel treatments or any kind of additives can touch hard carbon deposits. How many miles on bike? How is the oil consumption?
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/24/15 04:20 PM

Hi James

Roger also helped me a lot with the LC-1 installation and settings

My bike has 100 000 kms (60 000 miles). I never tried any product to clean the combustion chambers. Oil consumption is near 1 liter / 5000 kms. I could be interested by your LC-1 depending of the price asked. I suspect I broke mine during AFR setting. I perhaps disconnected and connected it during AFR setting. Innovate warns us to don't do that during setting but I've accidentally done it.

About pinging, lower AFR settings is supposed to encourage preignition of fuel. This something I read elsewhere. I dont't know about the theory of this.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/24/15 07:52 PM

Private message sent.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/27/15 01:46 AM

Today morning was rainy. I tried again vacuum cleaner O2 free air calibration method and it now worked. I settled the AFR at 13.5 and the bike today was a joy to drive with no pinging at all. Temperature was only near 70 F. In the past, I previously adjusted my bike at 13.5 but now I added the booster plug with this AFR setting. The results I have now seems a lot better than what I had in the past. Do I have better air cal now or it is the added BP which seems to give me better results ?

I still have a problem with the LC-1 each time I try to change the AFR setting. Every time i want to do an AFR change, I have to do a free air O2 calibration. If I don't do it, the AFR jump constantly from 7.4 to near 22.

With the vacuum cleaner method air cal. I could at least now live with this problem.

Thanks again Roger and Jim for all your help.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/27/15 11:00 AM

Marc,
Due to mixture adaptation your Motronic will get to the same AFR with or without the BoosterPlug. However, after you reset the Motronic, if you use a BoosterPlug, the Motronic gets a head start by 6%. For example, if you want to shift AFR by 8%, lambda=0.92 (which is 13.5:1afr for gasoline without ethanol), without a BoosterPlug the Motronic has to create adaptive values that add 8% to fueling. If you start with a BoosterPlug, the Motronic only has to add 2% by mixture adaptation.

As an aside, if you use a BoosterPlug with a stock O2 sensor, the Motronic creates a negative-6% adaptation factor to remove the fuel added by the BoosterPlug.

To know if lowering the air temperature is having some other effect, say on spark timing, you would have to do some testing after several tanks of fuel with each setup, at a variety of air temperatures.

I think you should ride the bike with the BoosterPlug installed and with its probe at the air inlet so it is measuring the temperature of the air going into the engine. Here is where I used to have mine installed:

Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/27/15 02:52 PM

In fact, my booster plug is twin IAT sensors connected in series. I placed it like you did on the picture. Since I had the LC-1, I didnt use the BP.

As I had trouble with the LC-1 AFR setting, I decided to use again only my BP with no O2 sensor with the high fuel pressure regulator. I got really bad fuel mileage with this setting. I used this setting for one month before using again the LC-1 yesterday when I finally had success with Vacuum cleaner O2 air calibration.

Now I use the LC-1, BP, with high pressure reg with an AFR of 13.5. I will perhaps try an AFR near 13 like Jim did.

I did again aggressive ride last night to make the bike pinging. There was no pinging whatever i've done. (???) As stated the temperature was near 70F so I now suppose (and I was) that my pinging problems is closely in relation when the temp goes higher than say 80F.

I suspect I can do something with the oil temp sensor which probably has directly an influence with the timing. Warm days will tell me if the previous pinging I had will come back.

I cross my fingers but...
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/27/15 03:48 PM

I forgot you had the 3.5 bar FPR, which adds 8%. So you start out with that plus 6% for the BP for a total of 14% more than stock. When set at lambda=0.92, your Motronic learns and removes 6% of the fuel you added.

It's not worth fooling with the oil temp sensor. Once the bike is warm, it is ignored as far as I know. If you hold it below warmed up temperature, the Motronic will assume it's broken.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/28/15 10:35 AM

Hi Roger

Finally, according to this explanation, using 3,5 bar FPR and BP should (normally) be useless because the the Motronic will keep the AFR settled by us with the LC-1 ?

I asked you this question because changing the stock FPR to the 3,5 bar was not really a funny job.

I think I found the culprit I had with my LC-1. I'll check that when returning at home next friday.

If endless pinging and endless problems when setting the LC-1 are gone, this will begin great holidays coming for me next weekend.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/28/15 10:45 AM

Originally Posted By: legarem
Hi Roger

Finally, according to this explanation, using 3,5 bar FPR and BP should (normally) be useless because the the Motronic will keep the AFR settled by us with the LC-1 ?

I asked you this question because changing the stock FPR to the 3,5 bar was not really a funny job.

I think I found the culprit I had with my LC-1. I'll check that when returning at home next friday.

If endless pinging and endless problems when setting the LC-1 are gone, this will begin great holidays coming for me next weekend.


Hi Marc, Back four years ago when I started the Wideband O2 project I was not fully aware of the extent of BMW mixture adaptation, nor was I sure how much range it had. At that point it seemed best to shift the fueling by adding fuel pressure OR a BoosterPlug.

Over the course of my testing, I realized that the Motronic and BMSK have extensive mixture adaptation capability, which made the fuel pressure boost or BP installation unnecessary. (Although, there is less adaptation required if you give the Motronic a headstart by using one of those devices.)

What do you think was wrong with your LC-1?
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/28/15 11:15 AM


Hi Roger

Problem with my LC-1 was me. Shame on me I didn't took the time to read correctly the LC-1 instructions.

Anyway if it can help someone I will tell you the stupid thing i've done.

Every time I changed the AFR setting I thought I had to use the reset tag on the window before doing another AFR setting. Doing this means you have to do O2 free air cal each time you press the reset tag on the window. That's why I could do an AER setting only after i've done an O2 free air calibration.

Finally my LC- culprits I had were

1- O2 problems because there was a little solder bulge inside the muffler that broke the o2 sensor when screwing it in.

2- The history I wrote above
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/28/15 12:12 PM

Marc, Don't be too hard on yourself. Using a Wideband O2 requires precision and a lot of different skills to do it right. Making matters worse, the LC-1 is/was very twitchy. I think you've done well to figure things out, and I'm really glad that you have. I hope the pinging finally goes away.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/29/15 01:03 AM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Marc, Don't be too hard on yourself. Using a Wideband O2 requires precision and a lot of different skills to do it right.


Hi Roger

If we didn't have you to help us, I really think many people here would not have the LC-1 (or other)working correctly.

Many thanks again. I'll do soon measurements on stick coils with an oscilloscope to look at the voltage I Have. Your relay mod also interest me.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/01/15 02:44 AM

Since wednesday I settled my bike at 12.9 AFR. Jim strongly recommended me to try it. The 12.9 AFR really transform my bike. It idles more smoothly, there's less vibrations at high speed. It revs faster with authority. This is a real improvement over everything I tried.

In the past my bike always suffered with severe pinging when driving hard. The pinging was mostly there when accelerating from 60 mph. Now the pinging is gone. Why ???. Changes since pinging is gone were going to 12.9 AFR and added booster plug with the LC-1. There was pinging with LC-1 settled at 13.5+ 3.5 bar FPR. Now the AFR is settled at 12.9 + 3,5 bar FPR + BP. O2 sensor calibration was made with vacuum cleaner method. Can the BP makes the pinging gone ? Even if 12,9 AFR makes my bike so fun to drive, I couldn't think it made the pinging gone. There"s perhaps a relation with inlet air temperature and timing ?

With all these improvements I always thought the air box breathing could be better on the R1150RT, Inlet air seems choked with the small inlet snorkel. I am tempted to find a way to let more air going to the filter, At least try it, More air means for me the LC-1 could adjust the AFR accordingly to the incoming air.

Anybody tried it with a LC-1 or other device which adjust the AFR ?

Thanks
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/01/15 10:07 AM

Originally Posted By: legarem
... Can the BP makes the pinging gone ? Even if 12,9 AFR makes my bike so fun to drive, I couldn't think it made the pinging gone. There"s perhaps a relation with inlet air temperature and timing ?
...


It is likely that there is a table that adjusts timing, based on Air Inlet Temperature but haven't tried to measure it. It is my understanding that spark advance correction for air temperature is usually to REDUCE advance at higher air temperatures to prevent preignition. If that is the case, the BoosterPlug would have the effect of allowing MORE advance.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/01/15 04:38 PM

With your AFR at 12.9:1 what happens if you re-install the OEM AIT sensor? Have you checked the timing using the fuel pump on method?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/01/15 09:22 PM

I checked with a guy who is pretty expert reading the Motronic tables. For MA 2.4, some ECUs retard the ignition for temperatures above 45C, some have no correction. In either case, lowering the air temperature no effect below 45C.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/02/15 12:57 PM

Originally Posted By: JamesW
With your AFR at 12.9:1 what happens if you re-install the OEM AIT sensor? Have you checked the timing using the fuel pump on method?


Hi Jim

I still have the OEM AIT sensor but added a another one in series with it.

Since I settled my bike at 12.9 with the added AIT sensor i'm so happy with this bike i'm now afraid to do anything smile

Can you describe more about checking the timing using the fuel pump on method ? It's the first time I heard about this.

Yesterday, It was the first time I rode the bike alone with 12.9 AFR setting. Let me tell you my mpg will surely drop the way I rode the bike. I'm still astounded how the bike is smooth and accelerate faster with NO PINGING I still wonder why pinging is gone. This is a good mystery.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/02/15 03:08 PM

Hi Marc,
I would still try it with the one AIT sensor as I doubt you will notice much if any difference other than an improvement in MPG. I say better to run in stock condition with only the LC-1,2 with wideband O2 sensor.

The fuel pump should activate when the "S" timing mark appears centered in the timing mark window located on the right side of the engine accessed by removing the small plastic cover. I removed the primary plugs to make the engine easier to rotate by hand while listening for fuel pump activation. You can rotate the engine by placing the trans in top gear and gently bumping the rear tire in the direction it would turn while propelling the motorcycle forward. Then to adjust the timing loosen the bolts to allow very slight rotation of the HES mounting plate on the front of the engine such that fuel pump turn on occurs when the S mark is centered in the observation window. Be careful to not turn engine over backwards, only rotate forwards. If you're careful and patient you can get the timing spot on. Oh, with a pencil mark the position of the HES plate before you begin just in case you need to return to your starting point. Also, I think you can check the timing with a timing light by revving the engine past the point of maximum advance and observing the maximum advance mark in the timing mark observation window.

Maybe the reason your pinging has stopped is the engine is running cooler because of the richer mixture. Might be interesting to adjust the LC-1 to the point where the pinging just re-appears then set the LC-1 a tenth or two richer and see how you like the overall performance at that setting. What spark plugs are you using?
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/03/15 02:09 AM

I use Iridium NGKs on top and low spark plugs. I remember the top ones are one grade cooler than the original.

Pinging was there with stock spark plugs with the bike in stock condition. It was still there With BP with no O2 sensor. It was there with LC-1 settled at 13.5 with BP and 3.5 bar reg.

I remember the worst case was there last time with 13.5 AFR.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/03/15 03:59 AM

Well, I would still use one OEM AIT sensor at 12.9 AFR and see what happens. I would also give 13.2:1 a try just to say I did. Does the bike use oil? Would be not a lot of fun to de-carbon an oilhead. My '04RT pinged a bit when it was fairly new and oil consumption was about 1/4 quart per 500 miles or so but at around 10K miles consumption dropped and it hasn't pinged since. I ran in my '93 R1100RS fast and didn't hesitate to hit red line when shifting. Never has used oil and has never pinged. Had a '79 R100T that was an oil user and pinged a lot. Ended up removing heads and de-carboning. Also, installed new piston rings then rode it hard and no more oil consumption or pinging. Of course this was easy to do on an airhead.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/04/15 11:12 PM

Today I tried an open air box filter to look if motor performance would be better. Perhaps motor breathed better but the throaty garbage sound coming from the air box disturbed me.

I also tried to use only the stock AIT sensor and pinging came back. As soon as i connected my second AIT in series with stock one, pinging was gone and I suspect I like the power better than with only the stock AIT.

So now There's a second AIT in series with stock one, a 3.5 bar regulator and a LC-1 settled at an AFR of 12.9. As the bike is now, I think it's the end of improvement. As it is I also think I'll get really great MPG performance. More on that at the end of the tank.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/05/15 01:51 AM

Marc, After you removed the second IAT did you reset the Motronic? That might change the outcome.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/05/15 02:00 AM

Hi Roger

Every time I do a change I reset the Motronic
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/05/15 10:03 AM

Then after removing the second IAT sensor, you should ride for a tank of fuel before assessing pinging, it may improve. Or, since there's no real harm to keeping the second IAT, if you have it located in the airbox or intake, you might just want to enjoy your success.

Since you're riding at an AFR of 12.9, which is lambda=0.88, you need at least 12% more fuel than the fuel table specifies. If you also run fuel with ethanol, you need an additional 4%. This means you want 16% more fuel than your stock fuel table is programmed for to get to 12.9:1 AFR.

Your 3.5 bar regulator (8%) and second IAT (6%) add 14% so you get to about the right point. Your Motronic only needs to add the remaining 2% through adaptation.

Why not just enjoy the ride now?
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/05/15 12:23 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt

Why not just enjoy the ride now?


Hi Roger

No ethanol gas here unless we really want to choose this gas on some gas stations. My bike has 101 000 kms and fuel tank hoses looked like new last year.

As everything now works as it never worked and I will not know why the pinging is gone. That's what i'll do.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/10/15 12:32 AM

With an AFR of 12.9, I do 42 MPG. That's great
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/10/15 04:15 AM

Hi Marc,
I could live with that mpg and it is about the same as I get at 12.9 which is 41 mpg.

Thanks for that info.
Posted By: legarem

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 08/17/15 01:05 AM

Just done 49,44 MPG today with a tank, two on the bike on country roads at speeds between 60 - 75 MPH. Temperature was 85 F

I'm amazed !

just some rare little hints of high speed pinging. Motor is strong and so smooth. I'm now really in love with this bike.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/09/15 09:10 PM

Mixture Adaptation, Short/Long Term Trims, ECU Learning Exposed by the GS-911!

The Short Version
The GS-911 now reports long term trims for the BMSK which show beyond a shadow of a doubt that the BMW fueling strategy includes Long Term Trims, learned in Closed Loop by using the stock O2 sensor, which are applied to the entire fuel table. This means that the ECU learns about all fueling errors and most attempts to alter fueling on a stock bike. It learns about fueling changes (other than those made to the O2 sensor) and brings them back to stock.


The Long Version
For the past four years I've been explaining how the Motronic, BMSK and BMSX use the narrowband O2 (lambda) sensor to control combustion AFR in the Closed Loop area of the fuel table to accurate achieve lambda=1 (14.7:1 AFR for gasoline). It also allows those ECUs to learn how much correction is required throughout the Close Loop area and to therefore "learn" long term correction factors (mixture adaptations) that are applied throughout the fuel map--at idle, acceleration, all the way to full throttle--all the time.

Measurements reported throughout this thread have demonstrated the effects of this "learning" and many readers here have come to realize that our BMW motorcycle ECUs perform this powerful function. It allows the ECUs to adapt to changing conditions in the engine as it wears, as the fuel injectors and air filter accumulate deposits, imperfections and errors in all sensors, voltage deviations (even due to a failed alternator), fuel pressure changes, and even adapt to gasoline with ethanol.

This mixture adaptation also limits the ways in which you can alter fueling: modify the air temperature sensor and the ECU corrects fueling. Change the fuel pressure regulator and it learns about and fixes that too. Even modify values in the ECU fuel table in the onboard chip, and it corrects for that. However, alter the O2 sensor for richer or leaner fueling and the ECU obligingly shifts the entire fuel table automatically. (Another way to alter fueling successfully is to disconnect the O2 sensors & add a piggy back controller. This approach puts the ECU into a Limp-Home mode.)

In spite of the Bosch and BMW documentation mentioning mixture adaptation and long term trims, and even given the measurements of it shown in this thread and others, there are still many riders who aren't fully convinced. After all, until now there haven't been any gauges or displays which explicitly show the long term and short term trims at the heart of this "learning" capability.

Recently Hexcode SA, maker of the powerful GS-911 diagnostic tool, have added new realtime values to the long list reported for the BMSK ECU. In addition to the short term trims shown for the Closed Loop area (Lambda Correction Factors 1&2), the GS-911 now reports four new long term trims: Additive Trims 1 & 2 and Multiplicative Trims 1 & 2. The "1" trims are for the right cylinder and the "2" trims are for the left cylinder.

A colleague in the UK who has an R1200GS and owns a GS-911 and dual LM-2s (which can record AFR data and other info for both cylinders) with Wideband O2 sensors added to each exhaust. He took a ride the other day and sent in the LM-2 and GS-911 data, which includes a 13 second wide-open-throttle (WOT) run in 6th gear. This 6th gear "pull shows for certain that long term trims exist and that they are applied to open loop fueling, right up to WOT.

Have a look at the table below. The data clearly shows the BMSK going open loop (highlighted in yellow) where the lambda control factors set to 1 (set to 1 there is no increase or decrease in fuel due to the immediate values of the O2 sensor) and clearly shows the application of the Long Term Multiplicative Trim at WOT. To understand the Multiplicative Trim, the number in the Injection Time column is multiplied by the number in the Multiplicative Trim column. Taking the first highlighted row, the 10.56 mS injection time is multiplied by 1.12 for the right cylinder and by 1.03 for the left cylinder resulting in Injection Times of 11.8 mS for the right cylinder and 10.9 mS for the left cylinder. In other words, the long term trim learned at lower power levels has been applied to this Open Loop area of fueling.

If youre surprised that there is this much difference between the left and right cylinders, he confirmed that left and right cylinders had AFRs which tracked each other very closely by making an actual AFR measurement on both cylinders at the same time the GS-911 data was gathered.

Going a bit further, the multiplicative trim is not a single value for the whole but map but a table of values (how many have not yet been determined). There are 5 different long term multiplicative trims in this "pull" between 1800 and 4700 RPM. So the long term trim table is quite a bit larger than we'd expected.

There are also two long term additive trim types, for which there is a corresponding table of values. These additive long term trims affect small throttle angles and idle. The multiplicative trims affect cruising, acceleration and wider throttle angles.

[Summary]
This new GS-911 capability is an exciting development in the understanding of BMWs fueling strategy. It demonstrates clearly the complex ways in which its ECUs process data gathered in the Closed Loop fueling area and apply it to the entire fuel table, including acceleration and starting. At the moment, Hexcode has not added the collection of this data for the newer liquid cooled Boxers or for the older Motronics but the effect of the trims has been accurately measured on all bikes. If you care about this make sure to let Hexcode know that youd like to see this data for your bikes too. (The BMSK is used on many different BMW bikes including the F800GS.)

As I receive more data from the field, I will add any important insights that are found.


Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/13/15 09:52 AM

The bike in the table above shows an average trim of 1.08 for the right cylinder and 1.03 for the left cylinder. He has an AF-XIED installed on setting 7 and has measured it with an LM-2 showing about 6% added fuel.

If you subtracted that 6% from each side the trims would look like 1.02 on the right and 0.97 on the left, suggesting that the right cylinder naturally runs 2% lean and the left runs 3% rich. To me that seems like a reasonable spread. Our R1150s don't have dual O2 sensors so we could expect left right imbalances of this much or greater, which can't be "trimmed out" as on the R1200, a big plus for the 1200.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/13/15 11:56 AM

Morning Roger

Don't forget that on the 1200 the evap purge hose only hooks to ONE side TB (no crossover hose like on the 1100/1150).

I presume all the 1200 bikes have evaporative emission controls by now.

Be interesting to see if the trims change if the purge hose is moved to the other side TB.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/14/15 02:11 PM

Good morning DR,
You raise an excellent point and I don't know whether the BMSK strategy is to let the Evap Purge change the Long Term Multiplicative Trim or not. The could take one of three approaches: ignore updating the LTMT when the purge is open, update it and let that role into the average, or keep a separate table of "adjustment" trims for the Purge Valve.

One thing we know for sure is that opening the purge does influence the Lamba Control Factors which are short term trims. In the chart below, opening the purge valve at idle results in a change to the idle actuator settings (it closes a little when the valve opens) and AFR (as seen by the LCF adjusting). The LCF reduces from 1.10 at idle with the valve closed to 0.90 with the valve opened, meaning not only does it need less air on the left, but less fuel as well.

I went back and checked the full data set, in the data on trims above, the purge valve was not opened during the WOT or at any time during this UK riders testing. (Do the UK R1200s have canisters?)

Since the Left Cylinder Trim is smaller, it suggests that the mixture on that side is, on average, richer.

All interesting, thanks for mentioning it.
RB

Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/14/15 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
. (Do the UK R1200s have canisters?)


Morning Roger

I really don't know but most of the world has adopted evaporative emission control by now (evaporative emissions are one the biggest polluters) so my guess would be the UK R1200 does have a canister.

Maybe the bike's owner can tell us?
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/14/15 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: dirtrider
...

Maybe the bike's owner can tell us?


Good idea wink I'll check & also go back over more of the data he sent.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 09/15/15 09:02 PM

Afternoon DR,

Here is what the owner said about his bike:

"My bike is a 2009 R1200GS, full Remus exhaust system, stock paper element air filter.

No charcoal canister, I don`t think they are fitted to any UK bikes. We still don`t have emissions tests on bikes at the annual MOT inspection."


So it may be that on his bike the BMSK knows about the absence of the Canister and never tries to open the purge.

When I get some data from a US rider, we'll see how those trims look. Terryckd has a camhead with dual LC-1s so his data should be well adapted and interesting.
RB
Posted By: Trobinson

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/05/16 05:22 PM

I thought I'd post this to this old thread since it definitely applies.

One of the forum members was generous enough to give me his LC-1 as he had switched to the LC-2. I installed it yesterday and took the bike for a ride this morning. For some additional background I've been riding my '96 R1100RT w/o a CCP pretty much since I got it a couple of years ago. First this was because I didn't know anything about it. Then because the bike ran better w/o it. With a CCP (actually a jumper configured for it) it would pop on deceleration and power wasn't as good as I thought it should be. That said my impressions are below.

Filled the tank and went on a 98 mile ride through Texas hill country. Some twisties, plenty of highway speeds, and a few hils. Obviously I was looking for improvement and to be honest I didn't get a WOW, but rather a very cool, this bike is running noticeably better, feel. grin Now remember, I've been riding this bike w/o a CCP pretty much the entire time I've owned it.

Impressions:
1. Idle is smoother. Almost don't notice it running!
2. Power is smoother and stronger.
3. Engine is smoother throughout although still buzzy at 5k rpms and up. A run to 95 was much improved and much smoother though. I generally didn't like taking it above 80 or so because of this.
4. Deceleration is good with no popping. With the standard O2 sensor and a jumper installed for the CCP it would definitely pop on decel.
5. On/off throttle is better. First gear is definitely still a sharper transition, but it is easier to control.

I can't thank the guy enough for letting me have the LC-1. I'm gonna have to get a laptop so I can hook it up with logworks and see just what I'm running at as well as a GS-911 so I can see what the Motronic is doing. I need to clean up the install at a later date (right now the LC-1 is under the seat with the cable tie-wrapped to the frame) but will do this next time I have the tank off.
Posted By: Trobinson

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/05/16 09:54 PM

I forgot to mention my fuel economy on this ride was 47mpg! smile
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/06/16 10:51 AM

Hi Tom,
Glad to see that you made a successful installation of the LC-1, which someone kindly donated to you. It's not a small job to install it and nurture it. The same results you're seeing can also be obtained with an AF-XIED, without the programming and wiring.

I'm curious what lambda setting its on an hope that you can post some of that info.

Here is a link that will get you to the part of this thread where an LC-1 was first installed on an R1100RT: http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=848073. Go to post 848073.

The coding plug that will work best is a 30-87 jumper (yellow plug) and I hope that is the one you're using.

When you can get a notebook PC or a cold start log in your garage, it will be interesting to see how your bike is interacting with the LC-1. You will need a serial to USB cable if you don't already have one, or a serial port on your PC if it's older. You can now learn a lot about how your bike fuels, enjoy!

Added: Regarding the buzz above 5K, that might improve if you had your injectors cleaned and flow tested. With good matching, the buzz is less. It might also improve over time as you run several tanks of gas. During that time your Motronic will develop short term and long term trims that will spread the extra fueling from the Closed Loop area into the Open Loop part of the fuel map, at wider throttle angles and higher RPMs. With the added fuel in the Open Loop area, your combustion will be less sensitive to the fueling differences that may exist between the left and right cylinders.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/06/16 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Trobinson
Clip-- Engine is smoother throughout although still buzzy at 5k rpms and up. A run to 95 was much improved and much smoother though. I generally didn't like taking it above 80 or so because of this.


Morning Tom

That 5K up engine buzz is mechanical not fueling or engine control related. Just a common factor in a 2 cyl boxer with large pistons (all the 2 cyl BMW boxers have it, some worse than others).

Your BMW 2 cyl boxer have 2 somewhat large pistons that completely come to a stop then restart in the opposite direction twice per revolution. So, even though the BMW boxer engine is inherently balanced there is still that disturbance (buzz) caused from both pistons starting & stopping at end of stroke. Then to make it feel even worse those large pistons are not directly across from each other as the 2 cyl BMW boxer is a 360 firing engine (both pistons go out together & come in together) so they can't be on the same crankshaft journal. Due to this piston off-set there is rocking couple as the pistons start & stop so that adds even more to the rider felt high RPM buzz.

BMW sort of addressed the high RPM buzz on the 1200 boxer by adding a balance shaft but it is only a single balance shaft & seeing as the engine is inherently balanced that balance shaft only split the disturbance (lowered it's peak) so the peak buzz is less but still there.

You really can't so much with the high RPM engine buzz but you can help the rider felt input by playing with bar end weights & bar mounting (basically turn the handlebars into tuned absorbers), changing foot placement on the foot pegs, try different boots & socks, etc. (basically you can't change the high RPM mechanical buzz but you can sort of change the way that buzz disturbance enters your hands, feet, & butt)
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/06/16 04:48 PM

Morning DR,
No doubt what you say about inherent buzz. However it can be significantly amplified by unequal combustion.

I found that my engine was noticeably smoother at high RPMs after richening my fueling. There was also a smoothness improvement after I rewired all my ignition coils through a separate relay.
RB
Posted By: Trobinson

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/06/16 05:00 PM

Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Hi Tom,
The coding plug that will work best is a 30-87 jumper (yellow plug) and I hope that is the one you're using.

When you can get a notebook PC or a cold start log in your garage, it will be interesting to see how your bike is interacting with the LC-1. You will need a serial to USB cable if you don't already have one, or a serial port on your PC if it's older. You can now learn a lot about how your bike fuels, enjoy!


Hi Roger,

I'm using a jumper from 30 to 87/87A. The parts fiche does show only 30 to 87, but says with mixture control and cat. Unless they mean an O2 sensor is installed and not the CO pot I don't have mixture control (no CO pot). I'll try changing it to just 30/87 and see how it behaves. I tried finding the post in one of your threads that went through all the CCP configurations, but was unsuccessful. Do you know where it is?

Regarding getting data I will try that with my desktop in the next week or so. Just a pain to lug it down to the garage and connect everything up.
Posted By: Trobinson

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/06/16 05:05 PM

Hi DR,

I understand the nature of the beast. I never felt it much in the hands or feet, but more through the whole bike. Now it is much better and hopefully as Roger says will improve with adaptation and maybe a little playing with the LC-1. We'll see.

Tom
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/06/16 05:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Trobinson
Hi DR,

I understand the nature of the beast. I never felt it much in the hands or feet, but more through the whole bike. Now it is much better and hopefully as Roger says will improve with adaptation and maybe a little playing with the LC-1. We'll see.



Afternoon Tom

Unfortunately the mechanical part is there to stay (just a fact of the BMW 2 cyl boxer design).

With good fuel tuning you can probably attenuate the audible part but the mechanical part is going to produce that higher RPM buzz regardless of the fueling. (just back drive your engine on a dyno with fuel & spark shut off & you will still find that same boxer buzz)

I'm not sure I understand feeling it through the whole bike?-- In order to feel it then it must be getting to your body through your body contact points like hands, feet, or butt.

If some or most of the buzz goes away when you take your hands of the bars at high RPM then it is transferring through the buzzing bars, if the buzz lessens when you take your feet off the pegs at higher RPMs then you are getting some of the buzz through the foot pegs. If you can change the buzz by (lightly) placing your hands at the very ends of the bars (on the bar end weights) then bar end-weight tuning will probably help your (perceived) buzz.

On some BMW boxer bikes you can move your hands to the very outer ends of the bars (on the weights), then play with your feet position on the foot pegs (usually way out on the ends & reduce the weighting a little) & that can significantly reduce the felt buzz. The basic engine buzz is still there but you have changed the chassis tuning enough to dampen the felt buzzing entering your body.

If you move your butt to the rear seat at high RPMs & that changes the felt buzz then some is entering through your front seat as well.

You are probably getting the buzz entry through all body contact points as well as some audio.
Posted By: Trobinson

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/06/16 05:38 PM

I guess through my butt would be the best way of putting it and certainly some through my hands, but also through my knees at the tank. I'll have to pay more attention next time. I know it's not as bad as my 500 ninja was which I felt through my hands and feet quite well.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/06/16 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Trobinson
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Hi Tom,
The coding plug that will work best is a 30-87 jumper (yellow plug) and I hope that is the one you're using.

When you can get a notebook PC or a cold start log in your garage, it will be interesting to see how your bike is interacting with the LC-1. You will need a serial to USB cable if you don't already have one, or a serial port on your PC if it's older. You can now learn a lot about how your bike fuels, enjoy!


Hi Roger,

I'm using a jumper from 30 to 87/87A. The parts fiche does show only 30 to 87, but says with mixture control and cat. Unless they mean an O2 sensor is installed and not the CO pot I don't have mixture control (no CO pot). I'll try changing it to just 30/87 and see how it behaves. I tried finding the post in one of your threads that went through all the CCP configurations, but was unsuccessful. Do you know where it is?

Regarding getting data I will try that with my desktop in the next week or so. Just a pain to lug it down to the garage and connect everything up.


Tom,
Here is the link: http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=760243&page=1.

I later realized that the coding plugs were less structured than I thought, which you can see nearer the end of the above thread. Still, for your R1100RT, 30-87 is the correct plug.

30-87-87a is the correct plug for a closed loop R1100GS.
Posted By: Trobinson

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/06/16 06:43 PM

Thanks Roger. I also found the thread on adv.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/06/16 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Trobinson
I guess through my butt would be the best way of putting it and certainly some through my hands, but also through my knees at the tank. I'll have to pay more attention next time. I know it's not as bad as my 500 ninja was which I felt through my hands and feet quite well.


Afternoon Tom

Just keep in mind that the more you pay attention the more that you will tune into the buzz, then the more it will bother you.

Some riders just jump on the BMW boxer bike & ride it morning till night & never notice the buzz, once someone points it out they go looking for it & find it (then it's there forever)

Kind of the same way with the BMW boxer surge, it doesn't bother most riders until they go looking for it, then it seems they find it on every ride thereafter.
Posted By: Trobinson

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 04/06/16 10:32 PM

DR,

Agreed. I try not to look for things and just ride. Gotta work enough paying attention to riding skills and the road.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 01/03/18 10:07 PM

Quick update: Since I've just taken delivery of a late model R1200RTW, I will test out the AF-XIED on it (with the latest adapter modules that work around a new BMW O2 sensor test) and then add LC-2s to start logging fueling.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 03/31/18 05:50 PM

The lambda-shifting saga continues: R1200RTW Lambda Shifting with the AF-XIED
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/16/18 11:01 AM

I’ve begun to lambda-shift (add either an AF-XIED or Innovate Motorsports LC-2) my new-to-me 2001 R1150GS and have found some problems and differences from the 2004 R1150RT that was the test vehicle for this thread.

On the RT, the O2 sensor is located ahead of the catalytic converter just beyond the point where the two header pipes merge. On the 1150GS, the O2 sensor is located inside the cat, between the points where the two headers enter the cat. This is a more distant location from the cylinder head, with different temperature. As a result, the Closed Loop period at idle is much slower (about 5 seconds, as opposed to about a second on the ‘04RT). The ‘01GS users an older, slower responding thimble-style O2 sensor (the ‘04RT had a faster planar-style).

While setting up and testing an AF-XIED on the ‘01GS, I realized that I could only get the GS to enter Closed Loop (key to having a functioning install) up to setting 5. Above that it flat-lined and registered a too lean mixture. The reason was that my O2 is original, therefore old and tired. Having my ‘04RT O2 sensor on hand, I swapped it in and found that I could get Closed Loop up to setting 9 on the GS, which is plenty rich.

I’ll do some riding now and see how it goes.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 06/22/18 11:55 AM

I did some riding at setting 8 and although the bike ran better, the old RT sensor (see prior post) doesn’t quite have enough juice and I got a couple “O2 sensor shorted to ground” errors in the GS-911 log. After that I cleared the errors and switched to setting 7. That did the trick and the bike pulls great from idle on up, with no errors

With the engine hot I checked the TB balance and noted that idle before the AF-XIED was 1100 RPM. On setting 7 the idle jumped to 1200/1250. The idle speed increase is a simple way to show that the AF-XIED is adding low end torque from idle on up.

While performing the TB sync to reduce idle back to 1100 I also checked the TPS setting using the GS-911, it was at the bottom of the green range with the engine off. Checked with a DVM (engine off), it was 301 mV. With the engine idling, the TPS voltage was 268 mV, likely due to TB shaft wear. The blue paint on the TB stops was intact but there was no paint on the TPS screws. After adjustment, the TPS voltage read 345 mV at idle, which is center of the range.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/04/18 12:25 PM

Since my two old narrowband O2 sensors only get me to AF-XIED setting 7 (5-6% added fuel)—and in fairness the bike runs well on that—I either needed to get a new O2 sensor or buy an LC-2 Wideband system if I wanted to try anything richer. I’ve also been curious about how this older GS (2001) is fueled compared to my former 2004RT (dual plug) so I opted to buy the LC-2, which includes the ability to datalog AFR in realtime and then plot riding logs. Plotting riding logs of AFR is the acid test for what a bike’s AFR is or isn’t doing and has been invaluable for me in the past, especially when I wanted to test the claims of a fueling mod, coding plug or Open Loop.

I already had all the miscellaneous parts needed for the project (OEM connectors, cable, sheathing and a serial to USB cable for programming) so I bought the LC-2. I’ve added LC-2s before and went right to it—pulled the tank, rear silencer and catalytic converter and got out the soldering iron, shrink tubing and PC. A few hours later the LC-2 was installed (hardest part was figuring where to lay all the cables), and set to lambda=0.92 (8% more fuel).

Once everything is installed, the Wideband O2 (Bosch LSU 4.9) needs a free-air calibration. Rather than pulling the exhaust a second time, I stuck a vacuum cleaner into the rear silencer, opened the throttle and bumped the rear wheel until I found a spot where one cylinder had intake and exhaust valves open at the same time and drew fresh air through.

Below is a photo of the finished install, the small controller sits on the air box. As time allows I want to run logs and see what differences there are for the three CCP options on my particular GS: European (no plug), US (yellow) and Swiss (beige).

[Linked Image]
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/04/18 11:14 PM

Hi Roger, Hope this isn't too far off subject but I'm totally convinced the EV14 injectors on the '93RSL have allowed me to run much leaner AFRs with great performance and no sign of surge idle is also very smooth. I'm at 13.6:1 right now with no need to run an AFR of 12.9:1 as I did when on the EV1 injectors. Not sure if I'll try for a leaner AFR. Also noticed less throttle sensitivity at low speed around town. What I have is a very smooth well behaved early oilhead. I would highly recommend the EV14 matched injectors for $200 from tills.de without hesitation.

All's well on this side of the continent and am really beginning to bond with the FJR. At first I wasn't sure if I'd made the right move and I missed the '04RT but after a few modifications to the FJR ( center stand, rear shock, bar risers, Michelin PR tires, and Russell Sport saddle ) I'm not missing the RT much at all. My FJR is a 2010 generation 2 machine and I replaced the center stand and shock with OEM units for a generation 3 (2013-present) with great results. I like Yamaha's philosophy of continuous product refinement with new parts that fit the previous year bikes. No need to always buy new to get improved performance. This is kind of off subject and I apologize.

Have a great 4th smile
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/07/18 02:32 AM

Went for a spirited ride to check out my leaner AFR settings the last couple of days and I got 48 mpg! My trip was from the Central Oregon Coast over the Cascade Mts then across the Northern Great Basin, some call it the high plateau, to Burns, Oregon a distance of 370 miles from Florence. From Bend to Burns on US20 temps were in the 90s with a very strong wind from the south and me headed east. Speed was from 75 to 90 mph and I got 48 mpg!! The bike has never run better in all respects. I could run non-stop between fill-ups. I think 13.6:1 AFR could easily be increased to 13.8 which would be a good setting at higher elevations. The EV14 injectors are what made the difference. Before I never got above 41 to 43 mpg and the bike never ran as strong. On a ride like this the mpg figure would have been more like 39 mpg.

I'm kind of proud of myself for be able to make a two day trip (750 miles round trip) like this in two days at my age of 75. laugh
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/12/18 01:55 AM

Yup Jim, EV14 injectors are off topic but at 75 you’re allowed to be enthusiastic. There’s no real mechanism by which you should get over 20% better gas mileage—no matter what injectors half of the fuel is sprayed at a fully closed intake valve and much of that fuel is vaporized. But I can see an argument for better cold starting.

At 13.5:1 on the LC-2, the R1150GS is running great. Starts in under a second, idles smoothly hot or cold, and has that great low torque from lambda-shifting. Next up is running a full tank of fuel with Techron Concentrate, see if that does anything (like cause the idle to increase a bit).
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/12/18 04:50 AM

Evening Roger. I was thinking that the 4 port EV14 injectors would operate better than the single port EV1 units (better fuel atomization) which would, as you say, improve starting but also contribute to smoother running in general which might make it easier to eliminate surging at leaner AFR settings on the LC-2. Before now I had to run closed loop AFR of 12.9:1 and never realized mpg figures close to 50 mpg. I've programmed one LC-2 channel for 13.8 and will take a 150 mile ride tomorrow. Now that you mention it I did add Techron concentrate to my first tank of fuel on my trip. I have long used Techron in my rolling stock a couple times a year.

I also wonder if the Motronic 2.2 has an elevation sensor? I think the 2.4 Motronic does. My idle speed was set at 1100 RPM at sea level but dropped to 900 revs at 5K feet elevation. Humidity was also much lower at about 20% on the high plateau.

I would have a hard time living at high elevation with such low humidity. I had a severe nose bleed in the motel before I left on my return trip to the coast caused by the dryness and elevation.
Posted By: JamesW

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/13/18 03:33 AM

Took the ride today with passenger (wife) with AFR set to 13.8:1 and had no issues. Couldn't tell any difference at 13.8 compared with 13.6:1. Fuel economy was quite good at 49 mpg so no complaints. Not planning to go more lean as I'm satisfied with the performance in all respects. The only thing that could possibly account for the observed performance at these AFR settings is the matched EV14 injectors. Well worth the $200, imo.
Posted By: roger 04 rt

Re: Introduction and O2 Question - 07/13/18 03:35 PM

I’m pretty sure all the Motronics have barometric pressure sensors and even if they didn’t, Closed Loop operation will get the mixture to whatever your setting is. The lower idle speed is simply caused by less air entering at the lower barometric pressure at higher altitudes. R1200 bikes solve this problem with idle stepper motors. For our oilheads, at higher altitudes you could back out the BBSs a quarter or half turn if you notice a lower idle and then restore the setting when you get back to your normal altitude.
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