BMWSportTouring

98 R1100RT won't run.

Posted By: Reecehk

98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/11/17 12:06 AM

Hi, having a bad run atm, on Thursday a truck threw a rock up and cracked the windscreen on the car so I have to organize getting that fixed.
Friday our refrigerator died and had to get a new one delivered, that cost a bit!!!
Now Saturday the wife and I thought we'd get away from it all for the day and take a small trip, didn't get far and the bike just died, had to push it back home, cripes that pooped us out some!!! tongue
What happened was the choke was still on and the bike was in first gear slowly up a dirt road toward the main bitumen road. Suddenly it just died and the bike jumped out of first gear into neutral. Cranking over doesn't start it unless I turn the ignition off then on, then it runs for a second or so and dies again. This repeats, only after the ignition is turned off then on will it even kick over. After doing this a few times the bike cranks over but not even a kick now.
Not sure what to do now, at a guess I'd say the fuel pump or some kind of blockage, I did just clean the bike the day before so maybe water got in somewhere. Anyone have any ideas? confused
Posted By: SKYGZR

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/11/17 12:17 AM

do a search for "HES" or Hall Effect Sensor
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/11/17 02:24 AM

I just went out to check things out, couldn't see anything so before pulling it all apart thought I'd try starting it again, I turned the key on and the whir noise sounded as usual and there is like a relay click that follows normally but this started clicking erratically, not sure if the headlight was going on and off as well and not really sure what was happening to the instruments. When I was on the road I had my helmet on so may not have noticed the erratic clicking. When this settles down it still won't start. I checked the side stand switch and kill switch but they seem ok.
I may have to pull all the tupperware off and check other connectors etc.
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/11/17 03:11 AM

I tried again to record what happens when the ignition is turned on, the whir goes but there is no ignition click only the ABS indicator clicking. If I had to guess I'd say the ignition relay is not coming on. Is there an ignition relay? Should there be a click after the whir? (I assume the whir is the fuel pump, maybe not.

Edit: I checked the Motronic relay and it is ok, I checked and there is power to the relay when ignition is on, so it looks like I will have to take the cover off the alternator belt and check the HES, I was kinda hoping it would be the relay!!! smirk
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/11/17 05:28 AM

I think I remember when the ignition was clicking eratically (relay I think) the tacho was jumping around!!
Posted By: Jim Moore

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/11/17 10:41 AM

"Tacho jumping around" is a pretty good indication of a HES problem. Especially on a nineteen year old bike.
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/11/17 12:41 PM

I have all service records, the bike has only done 54,000 miles even though it is nearly 20 years old, but heat stress over 19 years would still be pretty bad. It is starting to look like the HES, the only thing that confuses me is the erratic clicking of a relay making the tacho jump around, that has stopped now, hopefully it hasn't damaged the Motronic unit, I dread to think what that would cost to replace!! frown
Posted By: Roger C

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/11/17 04:34 PM

A couple simple tests you can do. Try removing one of your spark plugs, attach the wire, ground the plug against the cylinder head and try to crank. Look for spark. Replace plug and remove a fuel injector. Position it so you can see if there is any fuel being delivered when cranking. If both these tests fail, the HES is probably bad. It is a pain to remove, but there are plenty of videos out there.

Used motronics are available on ebay for much, much less than the $2700-2800 new price from BMW. If you have some jumper wires, disconnect the HES plug and run jumper wires to each terminal. Hook a volt meter set to 12V DC to the power and ground terminals and crank. If no reading on the volt meter, the motronic is fried. Once it is removed, you can smell if it is burned. It is a hideous odor.
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/12/17 12:57 AM

Thanks, I will begin working on it!!
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/12/17 06:03 AM

I just went to test the spark and turning the ignition on started the erratic clicking noise and the spark plug was firing without the motor being cranked and tacho jumping around, I haven't tried testing the fuel injector but I don't think I need to, plus this erratic behavior may damage the Motronic unit. I shall proceed to check the HES unit. Must be a bad join or something.
Any other advice certainly welcome. smile
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/12/17 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Reecehk
I just went to test the spark and turning the ignition on started the erratic clicking noise and the spark plug was firing without the motor being cranked and tacho jumping around, I haven't tried testing the fuel injector but I don't think I need to, plus this erratic behavior may damage the Motronic unit. I shall proceed to check the HES unit. Must be a bad joint or something.
Any other advice certainly welcome. smile


Morning Reecehk

"Or something"-- usually not a bad joint but much more likely the wire insulation has cracked & fallen off so moisture then allows the wiring to cross-talk.




[Linked Image]
Posted By: SAS

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/12/17 05:25 PM

+1 on the cross talk, I hate when she cross talks.
Posted By: Lowndes

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/12/17 10:45 PM

Reecehk,

If it is the HES, you might want to have yours rewires by GSAddict. He did two of mine. You could buy a new HES for BIG $, or have Reto do it right and quick for lots less.

Word of CAUTION: he's in Canada and the best way to send it is USPS, which means you have to fill out a small "import" form at the PO. SHOW the value of your dead HES as "$0.00", because that's what it's worth at present.

See HES thread, plus lots of others here.
Posted By: szurszewski

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/12/17 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by Lowndes
Reecehk,

If it is the HES, you might want to have yours rewires by GSAddict. He did two of mine. You could buy a new HES for BIG $, or have Reto do it right and quick for lots less.

Word of CAUTION: he's in Canada and the best way to send it is USPS, which means you have to fill out a small "import" form at the PO. SHOW the value of your dead HES as "$0.00", because that's what it's worth at present.

See HES thread, plus lots of others here.



The OP is "down under" so sending it to GSaddict might take a little time and cost a bit, but still a good idea.
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/12/17 11:24 PM

Thanks, hopefully I get it apart today, I have degrees as an Electrical Mechanic and Industrial Electronics, although that was 45 years ago!!! smile I have plenty of shielded type cable, spade connectors etc here so should be no problems.
I will report findings as soon as I get it out.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/13/17 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Reecehk
Thanks, hopefully I get it apart today, I have degrees as an Electrical Mechanic and Industrial Electronics, although that was 45 years ago!!! smile I have plenty of shielded type cable, spade connectors etc here so should be no problems.
I will report findings as soon as I get it out.


Evening Reecehk

Don't forget the temperature rating as it gets REAL HOT in the HES harness routing area.
Posted By: Lowndes

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/13/17 12:55 AM

I missed the part about Down Under. Heck, they may have better postage rates between dominions than we do next door.

Just kidding about the dominions. But, it IS a Canadian Customs thing with the form, doesn't matter where it comes from; it's coming INTO Canada. Well, maybe they do like Aussies better than us.

Another option is to re-wire it yourself. There are several forums that tell you where to buy the hi-temp rated wire, connector, and sheathing, on-line. GSAddict might have some other options, too. Try to PM him or email him: arbcon@sunshinecoast.ca

The sensors are purportedly very reliable, it's only the cheapo wire that causes the problem.
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/13/17 03:37 AM

Yes I will have to check, they (BMW) probably used V75 cable and should have been V105 or better. I have just taken the pulley off, have yet to inspect. I am hoping to just lift the rear of the tank to get to the plug, what is annoying is the tank is full, not looking forward to having to drain it, I had only replaced the filter 3 months ago, what a pain!!
Posted By: avu3

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/13/17 04:43 AM

Reecehk - the commonly recommended cable has been oven control wiring. Lots of shielding and insulation. You shouldn't need any spade connectors. Solder to the wires on the sensor end, and de-pin the connector and solder to the pins on the connector end.

If you just look at it, you're likely to say "they're crazy, this is fine". You have to get the insulation off and then touch/work the wire. It will all fall apart in your hand like confetti.

PDF is in the top link in this post
http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthrea...amp;Words=hes&Search=true#Post276397

And this is the wire that keeps getting recommended, so you can compare to your stash
https://www.mcmaster.com/#8219k56/=5g006h

I used that formula to fix mine last spring after going round and round with a variety of random faults.
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/13/17 06:26 AM

Tank has to come off!!! tongue Thanks for the info, hopefully I have something here otherwise it's a long wait from the US to AU.
Posted By: Jim Moore

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/13/17 11:02 AM

You can siphon out quite a bit of the gas pretty easily.
Posted By: Roger C

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/13/17 02:34 PM

Draining tank. Buy a pair of hose clamps (less than $10 at Advance Auto), clamp onto the gas lines and tighten. Then, remove the lines from the engine side, release the clamps and drain into a gas can.

On the wiring shown from McMasters, there are but 4 wires. My HES (R1100RT) had 5 wires, one of which was a large shielded wire, 2 from the HES sensors and positive and negative. All 5 are connected to the plug which connects with the Motronic. Was the shielded wire reused?
Posted By: szurszewski

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/13/17 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Moore
You can siphon out quite a bit of the gas pretty easily.


Or if the bike does not have quick disconnects for the fuel lines you can just drain it from there - be sure to have a large enough container ready!
Posted By: avu3

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/13/17 04:50 PM

Before I bought disconnects, I just unplugged the line and then put a bolt in it. I think an M10, but it might have been an M12. Thread it in, tighten the hose clamp - carry tank away.
Posted By: Roger C

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/13/17 06:19 PM

Not having quick connects, it was worth the less than $10 investment for a pair of Lisle hose clamps because, on a R bike, when you take the top line loose you WILL have gas pouring out, unless you have the line clamped shut. The return line may also have some gas in it so I'd clamp it off, as well. Then once you unfasten the electrical plug you can lift the tank off .
Posted By: SAS

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/13/17 06:34 PM

Aircraft wire works well. It is usually Teflon coated and resists heat quite well. Can get it at just about any airport repair shop.
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/14/17 02:29 AM

Well that is a pain!!!! The wiring is sound, the insulation is in good condition, I set up a test with a 12v supply, 12v led setup and had some loose pins to fit the plug. All tested ok.
With the feeler gauge inserted the led went out for either pin/sensor. The only thing is that the led didn't go totally out, it still had a very slight glow with feeler gauge inserted in either sensor so I take this to be normal, I doubt both could fault in exactly the same way.
Maybe I will plug the sensor in and turn the ignition on to see if the erratic sparking occurs, certainly with the sensor out it doesn't happen.
Any ideas where to go from here? confused
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/14/17 05:41 AM

I plugged the sensor back in and turned the ignition on and off a number of times and all seemed normal, I installed the sensor and loosely put the pulley in and out with the ignition on, this causes a spark and a relay clicking on, does anyone know what the relay is?
This is the one that clicks on and off erratically with the spark before, doesn't seem to do it now.
If only it would show a definite fault I would have an idea where to look, but this could have stopped now with a permanent fault or in a working position, if so it is likely to show up again. It would be a pain to put it all back together, find it is still dead, and have to pull it all apart again!! frown
I checked the coil and that is ok, nothing smells burnt. There is one thing about the HES cable, as the cable goes under the plate it has a black rubbery silicone type of insulation over the cable, you can peel it back a little and see the shield foil, also this rubbery stuff is near where the cables join and split off to the sensors. When I tried to get the sensor plate off it was stuck like glue to the body and had to pry it apart carefully, took some doing.
Posted By: dirtrider

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/14/17 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Reecehk
I plugged the sensor back in and turned the ignition on and off a number of times and all seemed normal, I installed the sensor and loosely put the pulley in and out with the ignition on, this causes a spark and a relay clicking on, does anyone know what the relay is?
This is the one that clicks on and off erratically with the spark before, doesn't seem to do it now.
If only it would show a definite fault I would have an idea where to look, but this could have stopped now with a permanent fault or in a working position, if so it is likely to show up again. It would be a pain to put it all back together, find it is still dead, and have to pull it all apart again!! frown
I checked the coil and that is ok, nothing smells burnt. There is one thing about the HES cable, as the cable goes under the plate it has a black rubbery silicone type of insulation over the cable, you can peel it back a little and see the shield foil, also this rubbery stuff is near where the cables join and split off to the sensors. When I tried to get the sensor plate off it was stuck like glue to the body and had to pry it apart carefully, took some doing.


Morning Reecehk

Sounds like the fuel pump relay clicking (the Motronic controls the fuel pump relay based on 2-3 seconds at key-on then during engine cranking or engine running).

You might remove the fuel pump relay to see if your clicking goes away.

An HES wire harness with internal wire insulation degradation can cause the fuel pump relay to click on off as the cross talk in the wires makes the Motronic think that the engine is cranking.

All you have stated still sounds like an HES wire harness issue.

There is no way I would go as far into the BMW 1100 HES system as you have without re-wiring the HES just to eliminate that as the problem. Even IF it isn't the immediate problem it soon will be.

Also keep in mind that once your HES wiring dries out it can start acting normal for a while until it gets wet again & kills the engine.

The ONLY way to fully test that HES wiring is to cut the pigtail apart & go over every inch of the wiring looking for cracks in the insulation. If your 1100 bike still has the original HES I would be very/very surprised if the HES wiring doesn't have insulation breakdown (very surprised).
Posted By: James in OK

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/14/17 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by dirtrider

There is no way I would go as far into the BMW 1100 HES system as you have without re-wiring the HES just to eliminate that as the problem. Even IF it isn't the immediate problem it soon will be.

Also keep in mind that once your HES wiring dries out it can start acting normal for a while until it gets wet again & kills the engine.

The ONLY way to fully test that HES wiring is to cut the pigtail apart & go over every inch of the wiring looking for cracks in the insulation. If your 1100 bike still has the original HES I would be very/very surprised if the HES wiring doesn't have insulation breakdown (very surprised).


^^^^^^^THIS -- 100 times this.

As someone who rewired mine on my own this summer (and mine is a 2000 model), I can say that it *will* fail. I was doing mine for peace of mind, and initially thought that my harness was completely unaffected. As soon as I began moving things around, bits of insulation began to crumble. It is a ticking time bomb.

I also made the test rig with an LED to confirm both proper operation and also to set timing once assembled. Mine NEVER glowed -- it was on or off. I suspect you're getting leaked voltage in there somewhere causing the LED to glow. I'd rewire it in a heartbeat. Yes, it's a pain. But it won't be in the future. That's pretty important in the middle of a two-week trip.
Posted By: Roger C

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/14/17 04:29 PM

The leaking voltage James in OK mentioned is a red flag. You can fry the Motronic if the positive and negative wires get crossed. I don't know of anyone who repairs Motronic units but used ones are available on eBay. BMW wants more than your bike is probably worth for a new Motronic unit.
Posted By: waynerd

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/14/17 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Reecehk
The wiring is sound, the insulation is in good condition,

Originally Posted by Reecehk
There is one thing about the HES cable, as the cable goes under the plate it has a black rubbery silicone type of insulation over the cable, you can peel it back a little and see the shield foil, also this rubbery stuff is near where the cables join and split off to the sensors. When I tried to get the sensor plate off it was stuck like glue to the body and had to pry it apart carefully, took some doing.


Did you only inspect the outer jacket of the cable? That's kinda what it sounds like. From the myriad posts I've read on HES failures, the outer jacket always looks good, BUT the insulation on the individual wires is almost powder. If you have not opened up, or peeled back the outer insulation, then you're just foolin' yourself.

Everyone here has given you great advice with decent links to other threads where people have dealt with an issue just like yours. I encourage you to also do a quick search of prior Oilhead posts (search "HES" or "Hall Effect Sensor") and see how common this is. While there are always going to be additional fixes and repairs needed on an older bike, the plus is that there is a TON of helpful information to be gleaned from "those that have gone before you"...and that is especially true on this forum.
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/15/17 02:51 AM

You were all correct, the inside of the cable was a mess of crumbling plastic. I searched through all my gear and the only 4 core shielded cable I have is low temp (80C - 175F), can't find anywhere in Australia that sells this type of cable unless I buy a 100m roll. eek
I will order a new sensor from Germany, it is $200 new but at least it will plug straight in and get me going. money
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/15/17 08:56 AM

I just ordered and paid for the part, I figure the quicker it's done the quicker I get it!! I will now make the timing box in readiness. smile
Posted By: AndyS

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/15/17 09:30 AM

There should be some airfields near you. many of them will have repair workshops and will have an appropriate heatproof cable.
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/15/17 09:44 AM

It is ordered now, maybe I will try and get some cable later and try to fix the old one to either keep or sell it. I hope this fixes the problem!!
Posted By: Roger C

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/15/17 01:26 PM

Hopefully you marked the old HES and the engine block. If so, You can line up the new HES plate to your old one, mark the new and align the new to the old marks on the engine. and be on the road in short order. Or, you could spend time to make the tuning box. It doesn't look all that complicated. I have the parts but never put them together as method one works just fine--perhaps the engine is a bit peppier.
Posted By: James in OK

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/15/17 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Roger C
Hopefully you marked the old HES and the engine block. If so, You can line up the new HES plate to your old one, mark the new and align the new to the old marks on the engine. and be on the road in short order. Or, you could spend time to make the tuning box. It doesn't look all that complicated. I have the parts but never put them together as method one works just fine--perhaps the engine is a bit peppier.

My experience was that the original setting was a little retarded in relation to the setting I got using the triggered LED. The engine does seem a bit peppier at the TDC I found using the LED setup.

All it takes is a pair of wires to hook up 12VDC to the harness (battery clips on one end and small alligator clips on the other end), then an LED with small alligator clips. From what was already posted, it sounds like Reecehk has those items or at least a way to connect them.
Posted By: Lowndes

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/15/17 11:26 PM

Reecehk,

The connector on the other end of the HES wire is up inside a soft plastic boot (or bell, or weather shell) that has lost its pliability over the years. It is possible (but not easy or obvious) to remove the connector without cutting the boot. But that is the preferred way to do it. This area gets spray in wet weather, best to keep these connectors as dry as possible. I always give connectors a good gob of dielectric grease (bulb grease) that pays dividends for years.

Once you release the connector it will come out from under the calternator with some fiddeling. May need to raise the alt. Then it's free.

When you pull the HES, everything looks great on the outside. The sheath is fine, but the separate wires inside are shot. slice it open and have a look.

While you are in there you might want to look at your TB's. Mine were coated on the inside with a thick black, almost tar like coating. If your BBS's haven't been "adjusted" (look for blue paint), don't touch them. Get the TB's off, one at a time and clean them with tooth brushes, Q-tips and a large can of carb cleaner for each side. Pay special attention to the passage controlled by the BBS. Shoot a lot of carb cleaner thru there each way. Clean TB's make a big difference.
Posted By: Reecehk

Re: 98 R1100RT won't run. - 11/15/17 11:34 PM

Yes I have all the items including a box, according to a video I watched the scratching marks around the plate is only good for the existing plate, a new sensor has to be aligned, this video was a big help and also gave a link to the sensor diagram pdf:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g5WD7C4K_0
The unit has been shipped with tracking, I'll be watching that impatiently!! smile
Thanks.
© 2017 BMWSportTouring Forums