BMWSportTouring

Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film

Posted By: RoadWolf

Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 02:29 PM

Don't know if anyone saw this or not, but a lesson to be learned about keeping a good line in a turn and staying in your lane.

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orderpage.aspx?pi=0HH600X4030000&po=0
Posted By: Perlova

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 03:03 PM

Does the photographer sit there and take those photos or is there an automated camera setup?
Posted By: ESokoloff

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 03:05 PM

 Originally Posted By: RoadWolf
....... a lesson to be learned about keeping a good line in a turn and staying in your lane.



I have to wonder if the rider became distracted by the photographer?
Posted By: upflying

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 03:21 PM

 Originally Posted By: Perlova
Does the photographer sit there and take those photos or is there an automated camera setup?

I'll bet the photographer sets up in a turn notorious for crashes..he sits there and waits for the noobie with a new bike, blue jeans and street shoes to biff it.
Don't know anything about the Dragon but don't complain when LEO's set up "speed traps". I am sure they are tired of taking crash reports.
Posted By: SageRider

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 03:27 PM

 Quote:
but don't complain when LEO's set up "speed traps"...

The bike was barely moving at impact. A speed trap here would have done no good. Taking the money spent on speed enforcement and putting it into rider education might have a more positive effect in this type situation...
Posted By: upflying

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 03:35 PM

 Originally Posted By: SageRider
 Quote:
but don't complain when LEO's set up "speed traps"...

The bike was barely moving at impact. A speed trap here would have done no good. Taking the money spent on speed enforcement and putting it into rider education might have a more positive effect in this type situation...

Most states have basic speed laws that says cannot drive faster than is safe. My bet is that rider was exceeding the basic speed law when he crossed over the double yellow line and hammered that innocent Blazer.
We have mandatory driver education for young people before they can get a license. That doesn't stop young people from becoming a statistic.
Posted By: SageRider

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 03:46 PM

 Quote:
My bet is that rider was exceeding the basic speed law...

Sure he was. If he was moving and hit the Blazer he was violating that law (Very convenient, isn't it???).
Of course if he was a better educated rider, it is likely that he would not have overcooked the corner, stood it up under braking, and gone over the center line in the first place.
Posted By: RussL

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 04:27 PM

Education is useless unless it is accompanied by maturity and deliberate application.
Posted By: lvnvbiker

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 04:58 PM

That was a clearly a prime example of target fixation, with a healthy dose of stupid added in for good measure. Who goes canyon carving in sneakers? I will ride in shoes occasionaly for a quick trip to the corner store or on a quick test ride after working on a bike, but other than that it is a boot of some sort and most usualy proper riding boots.
Posted By: AZKomet

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 05:14 PM

 Originally Posted By: lvnvbiker
That was a clearly a prime example of target fixation, with a healthy dose of stupid added in for good measure. Who goes canyon carving in sneakers? I will ride in shoes occasionaly for a quick trip to the corner store or on a quick test ride after working on a bike, but other than that it is a boot of some sort and most usualy proper riding boots.



Yep, that shoe was history.......good boots are a must.
Posted By: bobbybob

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 05:40 PM

 Originally Posted By: lvnvbiker
That was a clearly a prime example of target fixation, with a healthy dose of stupid added in for good measure.



++ On the target fixation. I have ridden the Dragon many times and there are always several photogs set up along that stretch. You come up on them suddenly and it takes real concentration to keep your eyes on the road and not look at the people standing on the roadside. If you DO get distracted, you'll end up a statistic--there's just no room for error on that road.
Posted By: Kinsley

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 05:49 PM

Many corners on the Dragon can be "cooked", but most photographers set up where they have decent light and can get a shot with the rider coming towards camera and a background with curves in it.
A telling clue to this shot that stands out to me is that the rider is going away from camera, so I'm thinking the photographer knew things were most likely going to go bad by the rider's approach to this corner the photographer knows very well, so he just panned and clicked.
I also don't doubt that the rider was somewhat influenced by the photographer being there and probably wanted to see a great shot of himself, so he could email the link to his buddies on a DB similar to this one.
Posted By: Firefight911

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 06:40 PM

 Originally Posted By: Kinsley
probably wanted to see a great shot of himself, so he could email the link to his buddies on a DB similar to this one.


Mission accomplished!
Posted By: Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 07:52 PM

++++ on "target fixation." It does't look like he was going all that fast, since the bike and rider just stayed right near where the contact took place. Rider didn't even attempt to apex and was nearly straight up when he hit the blazer.
Posted By: Twisties

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 09:31 PM

I can't see how there is enough information in that one shot to conclude that target fixation has anything to do with this. Can someone explain what they mean by that? I thought target fixation was looking yourself into a collision with a fixed object, or in the case of following a lead rider, following that rider off the road, generally an extension of the "you'll go where you are looking" concept.

In this case the guy collides with an oncoming vehicle and the rider is clearly across the center line. That's about all I can conclude from the photo. The bike's geometry and the rider's position are clearly altered by the impact, and give no clue as to what he was looking at or doing prior to the collision. If you look you can see that his torso is starting into the bed of the body of the SUV, whilst his head lags behind. I can't reach any conclusion at all regarding his line, lean angle, where he was looking, speed, or any other factor prior to the impact. All we know here is that he blew the turn, crossed the center line, and hit a truck/SUV.

Jan
Posted By: David

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/25/08 11:46 PM

It's hard to tell from the sequence of stills, but it looks like the SUV did nothing to evade, either. The vehicle seems to be right in the middle of the lane through the sequence, except at the very end.

It makes me wonder if they were watching the photographer, too.
Posted By: Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 12:57 AM

OK,Jan, here's the sequence. Most corners don't have a vehicle coming toward you, but this one does. So you start into the right-hand corner next to the center line, just as you should, ready to "dive toward the apex." You see a vehicle coming toward you and say, "Oh siht", maybe you even get on your brakes as a survival reaction (even if you aren't going too fast). You brake straight ahead and stare at the vehicle instead of staring at the apex. Crash!
Posted By: Dave_zoom_zoom

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 01:09 AM

 Originally Posted By: Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV
OK,Jan, here's the sequence. Most corners don't have a vehicle coming toward you, but this one does. So you start into the right-hand corner next to the center line, just as you should, ready to "dive toward the apex." You see a vehicle coming toward you and say, "Oh siht", maybe you even get on your brakes as a survival reaction (even if you aren't going too fast). You brake straight ahead and stare at the vehicle instead of staring at the apex. Crash!


Yep!!

That's the way I'd see it. (most likely anyway)

Dave
Posted By: Twisties

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 01:34 AM

Dick,

It's certainly possible that it went as you say, I just don't see any evidence to support the assumption. The first shot of the sequence shows them already in contact. I hadn't realized there were more shots until David just pointed them out, but the other shots are all after contact as well, and suggest a pretty hard blow, not just a graze. What in the shots makes you think this?

To help out, let me offer some alternative theories. Mind you, I think the evidence at hand supports these equally as "target fixation" which is to say not at all. But I challenge you to rule any of these out. If you can't rule these out, then you really don't have the evidence to support your theory.

1. The rider was out of position after evading another leading vehicle which did cross into his lane.

2. The rider was out of position due to to high an entry speed.

3. The rider was out of position due avoiding a deer.

4. The rider was out of position due to poor line choice.

5. The rider was out of position due to avoiding rocks or sand in the road.

6. The rider was out of position because he lost concentration altogether, and was not looking at anything in particular.

7. The rider had a sudden health issue.

8. The rider had a tire blow out.

9. Other mechanical failure.

Even if it happened just as you say, I'd call it more of a panic reaction than a target fixation problem. But my point is not that you are wrong, I don't know that. My point is there doesn't seem to much evidence at all to support a conclusion of cause, and none that particularly strikes me as supporting any particular scenario.

Jan
Posted By: motorman587

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 02:07 AM

 Originally Posted By: upflying
 Originally Posted By: Perlova
Does the photographer sit there and take those photos or is there an automated camera setup?

I'll bet the photographer sets up in a turn notorious for crashes..he sits there and waits for the noobie with a new bike, blue jeans and street shoes to biff it.
Don't know anything about the Dragon but don't complain when LEO's set up "speed traps". I am sure they are tired of taking crash reports.


A lot of LEO in the area due to complains from folks living there and this site complains about the LEOs, claim taking away from business.........

http://www.tailofthedragon.com/
Posted By: motorman587

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 02:09 AM

 Originally Posted By: David
It's hard to tell from the sequence of stills, but it looks like the SUV did nothing to evade, either. The vehicle seems to be right in the middle of the lane through the sequence, except at the very end.

It makes me wonder if they were watching the photographer, too.


Not against the law to not evade. Against the law to cross the double yellow line.

Did you guys/gals see him missing his shoe..........?
Posted By: swilson

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 02:46 AM

Oooof... that'll leave a mark. Great photos.
Posted By: David

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 02:51 AM

 Originally Posted By: motorman587
Not against the law to not evade. Against the law to cross the double yellow line.


I am aware of that. \:\/

The subject wasn't legality--it was attention.
Posted By: motorman587

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 03:16 AM

 Originally Posted By: David
 Originally Posted By: motorman587
Not against the law to not evade. Against the law to cross the double yellow line.


I am aware of that. \:\/

The subject wasn't legality--it was attention.


With the statement that the vehicle was in the middle of the road and the driver did not attempt to evade, it appears that some of the blame is being push on the car driver for not paying attention. We do not see what the driver sees or can react to. What we do see is a motorcycle, who clearly crossed the double yellow line. Yes at the end of pictues the driver of the vehicle reacts, however you must take in perception and reaction time, depending what the driver sees. We all have differnt rates that we precieve danger. So I beleive, from just the pictures, the driver of the SUV could do nothing. \:\/
Posted By: David

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 03:41 AM

John, I wasn't blaming him at all. That's something you're reading into my statement.

I was merely making an observation that he appeared to be looking elsewhere. I just found it interesting.

The fault is clearly all on the rider.
Posted By: CoarsegoldKid

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 06:11 AM

I would guess the photographer distracted the rider and the driver. But so would a bear or a bare naked woman. Once the rider's attention was off the road, even if he were at the speed limit and perhaps close to the double yellow, he lost the turn-in point, fixated on the truck, and hit it. Were he not to give up on the turn he may have been able to avoid the truck. If he were speeding, opps.
Learning to turn the head in the direction of the turn will not come easy to the newbee, even long time riders miss the importance of such a simple task. The truck is not at fault but he too being distracted may not have seen the rider until it was too late to avoid the collision. Common sense tells me we are supposed to avoid collisions if we can although there is no vehicle code that states it. I think the driver would have moved over to the right.
Sage Rider is right more money spend on quality instruction might be the best money spent. Sending someone out into the world with just a few hours of classroom and tarmac lessons ain't good enough. I think we all know that. If this fellow was a newbee and received the state's mandated lessons then it is clearly demonstrated in these photos he didn't score very high. On the other hand $H|T happens.
Posted By: Firefight911

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 06:20 AM

 Originally Posted By: Coarsegoldkid
If this fellow was a newbee and received the state's mandated lessons then it is clearly demonstrated in these photos he didn't score very high. On the other hand $H|T happens.


Yes, but in the modern society where everyone gets a ribbon, no one is responsible, and everyone makes the team what do we expect?

Tiered licensing with black and white, pass or fail criteria that is very objective with mandatory skills testing anyone?

Darn it! There I went opening another


Posted By: Deadboy

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 06:57 AM

From what I can see it seems like he overcooked the corner but as to why who knows....I do think the photographers set up in the corners that are the most likely to yield something interesting. When I was there Killboy was right at a sharp, decreasing radius corner and I found it very distracting the first time by....but that isn't in any way meant to excuse the rider...look where you want to go....
Posted By: yabadabapal

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 07:03 AM

I cant see taking on a road like that without some really good training and some miles behind that training.
This is not a hijack
I just want to say that I was really excited about getting my bike until I joined BMWST and realized how even after MSF and some years, I am not an educated and experienced rider. Im going to do some more training and education. The art of riding unlike other arts has potentially major consequences.
Posted By: Bud

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 12:29 PM

I thought there was some irony in that the picture had "PROOF" stamped all over it.

(I know why it does, it just struck my funny bone.)
Posted By: tallman

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 02:29 PM

The rider F'd up.

Not the SUV's fault, not the photographer's fault, not the bare
bear's fault.
Almost every time we go through there, someone is rounding a corner over the double yellow line on their fancy schmancy motorcycle.
Sometimes multiple offenders in the same group.
Of course I'm in the wrong here, because I don't race through there and don't pay the dues for the privilege of ignoring the traffic controls, and blatantly ignore the posted signs saying,

"Caution, motorcycles have the right of way in all situations on this road
because we are cooler than you,
and,
even if you're on a motorcycle too, get the hell out of my supercool racerwannabe self because I have the right to ride where ever the F I want to on this road. "

PS
You'd damn well better be paying attention and capable of bailing my stupid arse out when I'm about to run into you.


I'm tired of seeing people ride the Gap like they owned the road.
The cops are there because people like me got tired of having to avoid collisions from better riders (obviously) than I am.
When they put me, and my passenger, at risk for serious bodily harm, and possible death, and appear to have the ability and intent to cause such harm, perhaps I should defend myself as I would from any other lawbreaker who chooses, intentionally, to put a law abiding citizen's life at risk by acting in an illegal, criminal manner.
Have a nice day.

Posted By: Marty Hill

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 02:32 PM

Well said Tim!
Posted By: RichEdwards

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 03:10 PM

The "Tree of Shame" at Deals Gap (a tree decorated with the plastic and metal remnants of dozens of bikes that have crashed at the Gap) attests to the fact that many one and two vehicle smash-ups happen there weekly. Every time that I have been on that stretch of road I have seen bikes crossing the double-lines. Too many go there and ride way above their ability level--and some have to pay the price for that (and as Tim has said, made others pay for their carelessness as well.)
Posted By: RussL

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 05:07 PM

In defensive of the SUV driver, that's a pretty sharp turn he's entering and I'm sure his eyes (and attention) were on the road trying to keep his vehicle between the lines and not on the motorcyclist. Lets face it, a large part of driving on any road is assuming oncoming traffic is going to stay in its own lane. If you had to drive/ride the Dragon with the fear of taking evasive action from oncoming traffic in every corner, it would be a very slow and painstaking drive.
Posted By: lvnvbiker

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 09:18 PM

OK now I'm sitting here trying how to figure out how the @##@@ the guy in the cage is at fault! In our society there seems to be a huge current of displaced blame, and this is a prime example. Like the guy in the motorhome that set the cruise and left the drivers seat to get coffee, then after the crash sued and won based on the fact that nowhere in the manual did it say that he couldn't. COME ON PEOPLE GET A GRIP! The guy on the bike was a squid, it is his fault period! If you trip over your own feet and fall off the curb is it your citys fault when you hit the ground? If you put the car in drive instead of reverse and run over your washer and dryer is it the car makers fault? Who's fault is it when you get a drunk driving, the liquor makers or the bartenders? It's not possible in any of those situations that it may be the fault of the one walking driving or drinking now is it...
Posted By: ShovelStrokeEd

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 09:32 PM

Jeebus!!!

A whole bunch of after the fact judgments made here and condemning the poor guy who crashed. Where is the evidence that he didn't wind up across the yellow because of debris in the road, quite common there. He may have been new to the road as well and got surprised by the second half of one of those nasty double apex turns. What we see in the first picture gives no indication of what happened just prior to the crash.

I do agree with too fast for conditions but, who among us hasn't been guilty of that before? This guy just didn't get away with it.
Posted By: upflying

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 10:27 PM

 Originally Posted By: ShovelStrokeEd
Jeebus!!!

A whole bunch of after the fact judgments made here and condemning the poor guy who crashed. Where is the evidence that he didn't wind up across the yellow because of debris in the road, quite common there. He may have been new to the road as well and got surprised by the second half of one of those nasty double apex turns. What we see in the first picture gives no indication of what happened just prior to the crash.

I do agree with too fast for conditions but, who among us hasn't been guilty of that before? This guy just didn't get away with it.

Even if there was debris on the road, the biker is still at fault. If you go down because of road snot it is YOUR fault, it is not the fault of the road. Part of riding is the responsibility of surface appraisal. Unfamiliar with the road? Ride slower. Sorry, this is a slam dunk against the biker.
Posted By: waylap

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/26/08 11:42 PM

You can tell by the post impact disctance traveled by both vehicles that the motorcycle was HEAVY on the brakes and had slowed rapidly to a very low speed. After the glancing impact, the bike doesn't continue on it's original path (maybe a few feet) Conservation of linear momentum. By this you can determine that the rider came into the turn too hot, realized it, came upright and on the brakes hard and went over the center line at the second before impact....giving the suv driver nothing to evade in one second.
Posted By: Quinn

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 01:04 AM

What I really need to see is the minus one or minus two pictures. I assume that the plus one that we start the series with shows the bike stood up against the SUV after it's made contact. Does that seem reasonable?
Posted By: Deadboy

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 01:07 AM

 Originally Posted By: waylap
You can tell by the post impact disctance traveled by both vehicles that the motorcycle was HEAVY on the brakes and had slowed rapidly to a very low speed. After the glancing impact, the bike doesn't continue on it's original path (maybe a few feet) Conservation of linear momentum. By this you can determine that the rider came into the turn too hot, realized it, came upright and on the brakes hard and went over the center line at the second before impact....giving the suv driver nothing to evade in one second.


That is what I saw also....but you said it better!!
Posted By: russell_bynum

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 02:00 AM

 Originally Posted By: lvnvbiker
OK now I'm sitting here trying how to figure out how the @##@@ the guy in the cage is at fault! In our society there seems to be a huge current of displaced blame, and this is a prime example. Like the guy in the motorhome that set the cruise and left the drivers seat to get coffee, then after the crash sued and won based on the fact that nowhere in the manual did it say that he couldn't. COME ON PEOPLE GET A GRIP! The guy on the bike was a squid, it is his fault period! If you trip over your own feet and fall off the curb is it your citys fault when you hit the ground? If you put the car in drive instead of reverse and run over your washer and dryer is it the car makers fault? Who's fault is it when you get a drunk driving, the liquor makers or the bartenders? It's not possible in any of those situations that it may be the fault of the one walking driving or drinking now is it...


Did anyone say the SUV was at fault?
Posted By: MAT2CHI

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 02:44 AM

 Originally Posted By: Quinn
What I really need to see is the minus one or minus two pictures.


Sometimes they pose for the camera.




Posted By: motorman587

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 09:56 AM

 Originally Posted By: russell_bynum
 Originally Posted By: lvnvbiker
OK now I'm sitting here trying how to figure out how the @##@@ the guy in the cage is at fault! In our society there seems to be a huge current of displaced blame, and this is a prime example. Like the guy in the motorhome that set the cruise and left the drivers seat to get coffee, then after the crash sued and won based on the fact that nowhere in the manual did it say that he couldn't. COME ON PEOPLE GET A GRIP! The guy on the bike was a squid, it is his fault period! If you trip over your own feet and fall off the curb is it your citys fault when you hit the ground? If you put the car in drive instead of reverse and run over your washer and dryer is it the car makers fault? Who's fault is it when you get a drunk driving, the liquor makers or the bartenders? It's not possible in any of those situations that it may be the fault of the one walking driving or drinking now is it...


Did anyone say the SUV was at fault?


I think some people are believing that the SUV did not move over at all, thinking that as blame.
Posted By: RightSpin

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 02:19 PM

Nope, no matter how you slice it, that has "dumbass" written all over it. From the brake light in the first frame to the flying shoe, dumbass is the only thing which comes to mind.
Posted By: smiller

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 03:13 PM

 Originally Posted By: motorman587
I think some people are believing that the SUV did not move over at all, thinking that as blame.

From what I read I don't think that anyone is either saying or believing that. The questions about the SUV's actions had to do only with possible sources of distraction and no one has said that the SUV did anything wrong at all. Personally I think that from the SUV driver's perspective everything was over in an instant and there was virtually zero time available for them to to anything even if they wanted to.
Posted By: David

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 03:18 PM

 Originally Posted By: smiller
 Originally Posted By: motorman587
I think some people are believing that the SUV did not move over at all, thinking that as blame.

From what I read I don't think that anyone is either saying or believing that. The questions about the SUV's actions had to do only with possible sources of distraction and no one has said that the SUV did anything wrong at all. Personally I think that from the SUV driver's perspective everything was over in an instant and there was virtually zero time available for them to to anything even if they wanted to.


Exactly. John saw something that wasn't there, and then everyone piled on like lemmings. I pictured a loose football in an NFL game, with all the linemen diving into a big pile while the ball boy holds the ball up in his hand wondering what they're all doing.
Posted By: Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 03:20 PM

Great pictures of the Harley, what with sparks and all.

Now that's the way you corner, by leaning over, not straight up like the "Dumbass" who is still braking in the corner. What ever happened to "Slow-in, fast-out" and "Brake before you lean?
Posted By: T__

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 03:32 PM

What isn't shown is the next image.. Not nearly as graceful as it looked a frame or two earlier.. So much for doing it right eh!




Twisty
Posted By: waylap

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 05:50 PM

 Originally Posted By: Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV
Great pictures of the Harley, what with sparks and all.

Now that's the way you corner, by leaning over, not straight up like the "Dumbass" who is still braking in the corner. What ever happened to "Slow-in, fast-out" and "Brake before you lean?


Yup, that's the way I like to take 'em....all lean baby. I think he's just checking the oil on the right side of the bike.
Posted By: russell_bynum

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 06:08 PM

 Originally Posted By: Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV
Great pictures of the Harley, what with sparks and all.

Now that's the way you corner, by leaning over, not straight up like the "Dumbass" who is still braking in the corner. What ever happened to "Slow-in, fast-out" and "Brake before you lean?


There's nothing at all wrong with braking while in a corner.
Posted By: MotorinLA

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 06:15 PM

 Originally Posted By: russell_bynum
 Originally Posted By: Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV
Great pictures of the Harley, what with sparks and all.

Now that's the way you corner, by leaning over, not straight up like the "Dumbass" who is still braking in the corner. What ever happened to "Slow-in, fast-out" and "Brake before you lean?


There's nothing at all wrong with braking while in a corner.


I'd agree, as long as you're braking with the brake pads and rotors, as opposed to the undercarriage ... \:\/
Posted By: russell_bynum

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 06:18 PM

 Originally Posted By: MotorinLA
 Originally Posted By: russell_bynum
 Originally Posted By: Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV
Great pictures of the Harley, what with sparks and all.

Now that's the way you corner, by leaning over, not straight up like the "Dumbass" who is still braking in the corner. What ever happened to "Slow-in, fast-out" and "Brake before you lean?


There's nothing at all wrong with braking while in a corner.


I'd agree, as long as you're braking with the brake pads and rotors, as opposed to the undercarriage ... \:\/


I'm with you there.


Posted By: tallman

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 06:25 PM

But an undercarriage will stop you faster than ABS. \:\/
Posted By: Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 06:40 PM

 Originally Posted By: russell_bynum
 Originally Posted By: Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV
Great pictures of the Harley, what with sparks and all.

Now that's the way you corner, by leaning over, not straight up like the "Dumbass" who is still braking in the corner. What ever happened to "Slow-in, fast-out" and "Brake before you lean?


There's nothing at all wrong with braking while in a corner.


I agree--especially if you entered the corner too fast. And braking in the corner while across the double yellow--especially when you should be off the brakes and at the apex--is a good indication you entered the corner too fast.
Posted By: russell_bynum

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 06:40 PM

 Originally Posted By: tallman
But an undercarriage will stop you faster than ABS. \:\/


That has not been my experience.
Posted By: russell_bynum

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 06:42 PM

 Originally Posted By: Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV
 Originally Posted By: russell_bynum
 Originally Posted By: Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV
Great pictures of the Harley, what with sparks and all.

Now that's the way you corner, by leaning over, not straight up like the "Dumbass" who is still braking in the corner. What ever happened to "Slow-in, fast-out" and "Brake before you lean?


There's nothing at all wrong with braking while in a corner.


I agree--especially if you entered the corner too fast. And braking in the corner while across the double yellow--especially when you should be off the brakes and at the apex--is a good indication you entered the corner too fast.


Sure...but who here has never overcooked a corner?

Anyone? Anyone?

If he ran into the SUV without his brakes being on, you'd all be saying "dumbass didn't even hit the brakes".


Posted By: lvnvbiker

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 10:22 PM

I've overcooked one myself, and sat waiting for stiches at the quick care laughing at myself. And you know the only thing I could say when I looked in the mirror was "Dumbass"...
Posted By: motorman587

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 10:31 PM

 Originally Posted By: David
 Originally Posted By: smiller
 Originally Posted By: motorman587
I think some people are believing that the SUV did not move over at all, thinking that as blame.

From what I read I don't think that anyone is either saying or believing that. The questions about the SUV's actions had to do only with possible sources of distraction and no one has said that the SUV did anything wrong at all. Personally I think that from the SUV driver's perspective everything was over in an instant and there was virtually zero time available for them to to anything even if they wanted to.


Exactly. John saw something that wasn't there, and then everyone piled on like lemmings. I pictured a loose football in an NFL game, with all the linemen diving into a big pile while the ball boy holds the ball up in his hand wondering what they're all doing.


OK, I take the blame, feel better...............
Posted By: David

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/27/08 10:36 PM

Yes.
Posted By: Bullett

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/28/08 01:15 AM

 Originally Posted By: russell_bynum
 Originally Posted By: lvnvbiker
OK now I'm sitting here trying how to figure out how the @##@@ the guy in the cage is at fault! In our society there seems to be a huge current of displaced blame, and this is a prime example. Like the guy in the motorhome that set the cruise and left the drivers seat to get coffee, then after the crash sued and won based on the fact that nowhere in the manual did it say that he couldn't. COME ON PEOPLE GET A GRIP! The guy on the bike was a squid, it is his fault period! If you trip over your own feet and fall off the curb is it your citys fault when you hit the ground? If you put the car in drive instead of reverse and run over your washer and dryer is it the car makers fault? Who's fault is it when you get a drunk driving, the liquor makers or the bartenders? It's not possible in any of those situations that it may be the fault of the one walking driving or drinking now is it...


Did anyone say the SUV was at fault?


Aw, c'mon, Russell, SUV's, like husbands, are ALWAYS at fault! \:\/
Posted By: ESokoloff

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/28/08 01:26 AM

Hey!!!!!!!!

I resemble that comment \:\(

At least in my house I always get the last word in with every argument....They are : Yes Dear
Posted By: Bullett

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/28/08 01:37 AM





You're a good man, Eric!
Posted By: Nice n Easy Rider

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/28/08 03:39 AM

 Originally Posted By: Bullett




You're a good man, Eric!



You're a good man, Eric![/quote]

I bet Benedict Arnold's wife said that about him as well!!
Posted By: jwurbel

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/29/08 08:53 PM

Speaking of shoes, did you notice what the guy in the red helmet was wearing?
Posted By: JustJean

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/30/08 02:06 AM

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orderpage.aspx?pi=0HH600XI020032&po=32

Thanks to this thread I was able to find OUR picture on the dragon. We went down the dragon on Monday October 27th. David is on the new bike I'm the chase vehicle (white truck) I also got pictures but not as good as this one!!
Posted By: motorman587

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 10/31/08 07:14 PM

I like this picture of GS. I would think this is the K.T.M. some of you talking about.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_LxZ4Mi3rR3Q/SQi4YApxNII/AAAAAAAAOmU/r5BtQP1o50A/s1600-h/img_0652.jpg



Posted By: tallman

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/01/08 01:29 AM

Yes, but the dog needs to shift weight a little more.
Posted By: Twisties

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/01/08 01:51 AM

I thought it was an inflatable piglet with a sheepskin cover.
Posted By: RightSpin

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/01/08 06:21 AM

 Originally Posted By: motorman587
I like this picture of GS. I would think this is the K.T.M. some of you talking about.


That's a really good picture, John. It's a bit aggressive for the K.T.M technique that folks here talk about. The RidingSmart technique doesn't call for the moving of one's butt off of the seat as he is doing. But, his upper body position, head position and arms look pretty good.

I'll bet he's moving through that corner quicker than the picture suggests.
Posted By: RightSpin

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/01/08 06:55 AM

Here is the picture with a few annotations which should be self-explanatory.


Posted By: yabadabapal

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/01/08 09:28 AM

So I have a question on the Accident. In reviewing it I noticed the other motorcyclist in the opposite lane going the opposite direction of the accident bike. Based on the timing of the accident , we dont actually see the other MC until about the 3rd frame and at that point he is 100 feet beyond the seen of the accident.
So at the average rate of speed , might he have been coming up in his lane at the same time the accident MC was about to pass the truck and at that point the Accident bike could not veer into the other opposing lane because both bikes were at the same point on the road and so the Accident bike trying to stay in his lane as a last resort was already at a passing speed that couldnt be adjusted in time and ran into the side of the truck.
Posted By: ESokoloff

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/01/08 01:13 PM

 Originally Posted By: yabadabapal
Based on the timing of the accident , we dont actually see the other MC until about the 3rd frame and at that point he is 100 feet beyond the seen of the accident.
So at the average rate of speed , might he have been coming up in his lane at the same time the accident MC was about to pass the truck and at that point the Accident bike could not veer into the other opposing lane because both bikes were at the same point on the road and so the Accident bike trying to stay in his lane as a last resort was already at a passing speed that couldnt be adjusted in time and ran into the side of the truck.


No that would not be the case.
As you observed/stated in the 3rd frame the lead bike appears to be 100 feet beyond the other two vehicles.
It may be less then that but ill-regardless the distance of separation is substantial.
This accident (group of images) was over in a mater of seconds so the timing for your scenario is wrong.
Posted By: motorman587

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/02/08 01:54 AM

 Originally Posted By: RightSpin
Here is the picture with a few annotations which should be self-explanatory.



Still a great picture..... I would blow that one up and hang it on the wall, if it was me. Minus the red, green and yellow lines.
Posted By: SpaceKing

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/02/08 02:10 AM

 Quote:
I'm tired of seeing people ride the Gap like they owned the road.
The cops are there because people like me got tired of having to avoid collisions from better riders (obviously) than I am.
When they put me, and my passenger, at risk for serious bodily harm, and possible death, and appear to have the ability and intent to cause such harm, perhaps I should defend myself as I would from any other lawbreaker who chooses, intentionally, to put a law abiding citizen's life at risk by acting in an illegal, criminal manner.

I couldn't have said it better myself Tallman. Nothing like over-analyzing a simple situation.
Posted By: yabadabapal

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/02/08 11:46 PM

 Originally Posted By: SpaceKing
 Quote:
I'm tired of seeing people ride the Gap like they owned the road.
The cops are there because people like me got tired of having to avoid collisions from better riders (obviously) than I am.
When they put me, and my passenger, at risk for serious bodily harm, and possible death, and appear to have the ability and intent to cause such harm, perhaps I should defend myself as I would from any other lawbreaker who chooses, intentionally, to put a law abiding citizen's life at risk by acting in an illegal, criminal manner.

I couldn't have said it better myself Tallman. Nothing like over-analyzing a simple situation.


Agreed. How would you defend yourself?
Posted By: Ken H.

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/06/08 05:35 AM

 Originally Posted By: MAT2CHI



I've seen that picture sequence a dozen times, but what I've always found interesting is the stop motion of the front wheel compared to the back. Now shutter speed of the camera will of course cause this, but itís interesting that the back wheel seems to be still in rotational motion. It looks like the guy was full on at least the front brake as it lost pavement contact.
Posted By: Tony_K

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/06/08 05:56 AM

There is no shutter speed invloved in that photo. The front wheel is off the tarmac.
With some braking pressure the wheel will dead stop as it has in the photo.
The rear is still bitting so it's still spinning... since his foot is about to be ripped back. No foot braking there.
Posted By: SteveB

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/06/08 05:57 AM

I suspect he has a handful of front brake and the throttle is wide open.
Posted By: WBoyter

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/06/08 08:18 AM

Every time I see this photo, I reckon that the un-coolness of a full face helmet was probably passing through his mind. You can almost smell his drawers from the look on his face.
Posted By: elkroeger

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/07/08 08:57 PM

 Originally Posted By: ESokoloff
I have to wonder if the rider became distracted by the photographer?


You've got to be kidding me. Surely your point is not to somehow blame it on the photographer! There are lots of people and interesting things on the side of the road everywhere I go. My job is two things: Pay attention or stop the bike. That's it.
Posted By: SageRider

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/07/08 09:30 PM

 Originally Posted By: elkroeger
 Originally Posted By: ESokoloff
I have to wonder if the rider became distracted by the photographer?


You've got to be kidding me. Surely your point is not to somehow blame it on the photographer! There are lots of people and interesting things on the side of the road everywhere I go. My job is two things: Pay attention or stop the bike. That's it.

It is very obvious in the sequence that the rider was playing to the camera. This does not make the accident the photographer's fault. #1 priority on the bike is to ride the bike. Everything else is secondary. Rider exhibited poor judgement.
Posted By: Joe Frickin' Friday

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/07/08 09:50 PM

 Originally Posted By: elkroeger
 Originally Posted By: ESokoloff
I have to wonder if the rider became distracted by the photographer?


You've got to be kidding me. Surely your point is not to somehow blame it on the photographer! There are lots of people and interesting things on the side of the road everywhere I go. My job is two things: Pay attention or stop the bike. That's it.


Good grief.

There's a common theme in this thread, and it is this: anyone asking a question about potential factors in this incident is being accused of assigning blame/responsibility to something other than the rider who crashed. We won't learn much if all we can say is "the rider screwed up," without being able to assess/discuss how the rider screwed up, and what might have made things worse/better for everyone who was involved.

In this particular instance: to suggest that the rider may have been distracted by the photographer is not to blame the photographer at all. If the rider was in fact distracted, it's worthy of mentioning and lesson-learning, e.g. pay attention to where you're going, not to Killboy. It would be hard to fault the photographer in such an accident unless he was taking flash photos with some kinda photon cannon and blinding unsuspecting riders as they came around the bend.

In the case of the SUV driver: he's not to be faulted. BUT, assuming he was distracted by the camera, there's a small chance he could have avoided the collision if he had been watching the road instead. Why is this worth mentioning? If you're in a car and you kill a guy on a bike, you will feel bad for a long time, even if it's not your fault. it's in your interest to do whatever you reasonably can to avoid crashes, even those that aren't your fault.
Posted By: 270

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/07/08 11:08 PM

Good point Mitch.

A-Get some good rider training.
B-Dress for the ride
C-Don't ride over your skill level

My guess is he screwed up all of the above. Happens every day. I hope he's OK. I hope he's embarrased as hell. That's not running wide...that's flat missing the curve. Nobody's fault but the rider.
Posted By: russell_bynum

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/08/08 12:46 AM

 Originally Posted By: Joe Frickin' Friday
 Originally Posted By: elkroeger
 Originally Posted By: ESokoloff
I have to wonder if the rider became distracted by the photographer?


You've got to be kidding me. Surely your point is not to somehow blame it on the photographer! There are lots of people and interesting things on the side of the road everywhere I go. My job is two things: Pay attention or stop the bike. That's it.


Good grief.

There's a common theme in this thread, and it is this: anyone asking a question about potential factors in this incident is being accused of assigning blame/responsibility to something other than the rider who crashed. We won't learn much if all we can say is "the rider screwed up," without being able to assess/discuss how the rider screwed up, and what might have made things worse/better for everyone who was involved.

In this particular instance: to suggest that the rider may have been distracted by the photographer is not to blame the photographer at all. If the rider was in fact distracted, it's worthy of mentioning and lesson-learning, e.g. pay attention to where you're going, not to Killboy. It would be hard to fault the photographer in such an accident unless he was taking flash photos with some kinda photon cannon and blinding unsuspecting riders as they came around the bend.

In the case of the SUV driver: he's not to be faulted. BUT, assuming he was distracted by the camera, there's a small chance he could have avoided the collision if he had been watching the road instead. Why is this worth mentioning? If you're in a car and you kill a guy on a bike, you will feel bad for a long time, even if it's not your fault. it's in your interest to do whatever you reasonably can to avoid crashes, even those that aren't your fault.


Mitch,
Please stop trying to have an objective, intelligent discussion. All we're interested in is conclusions that you could put on a bumper sticker.
Posted By: smiller

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/08/08 01:21 AM

I think it was Mitch's fault.
Posted By: russell_bynum

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/08/08 01:33 AM


Posted By: Joe Frickin' Friday

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/08/08 03:14 AM

 Originally Posted By: smiller
I think it was Mitch's fault.


Sure. Blame the messenger. OK.


Posted By: Bologna

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/08/08 01:26 PM

Just wanted to throw my 2cents worth in here. I spend my winters ski racing (ALPINE) with helmets and pads and we bang gates several times a week trying to relive our youth. What it does teach you is how to commit to a turn prior to the turn and I believe that if the commitment is not there than what we call "late" to the next gate occurs over and over until you can catch up to the race course. We have racers,observers,photographers standing next to the race course during our events and waving to the crowd will get you into trouble real quick and buying the beer after the race! I have been ski racing and driving a motorcycle for 30 years and i get the same feelings arcing a sweet turn on a RT or on my Fischer race skis. In my humble opinion the commitment to the turn was not in play.
Posted By: upflying

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/08/08 02:38 PM

You want a bumper sticker?
"Avoid pain, stay in your lane"
Posted By: MAT2CHI

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/08/08 08:36 PM

 Originally Posted By: upflying
You want a bumper sticker?
"Avoid pain, stay in your lane"


How about: "Slow down, or go down".
Posted By: Paul Mihalka

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/08/08 08:55 PM

 Originally Posted By: MAT2CHI
 Originally Posted By: upflying
You want a bumper sticker?
"Avoid pain, stay in your lane"


How about: "Slow down, or go down".

I dunno. I really hate it when the only safety recommendation is "slow down". In this case speed was definitely not the problem, lack of riding well was.
Posted By: MAT2CHI

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/08/08 09:06 PM

 Originally Posted By: Paul Mihalka
 Originally Posted By: MAT2CHI
 Originally Posted By: upflying
You want a bumper sticker?
"Avoid pain, stay in your lane"


How about: "Slow down, or go down".

I dunno. I really hate it when the only safety recommendation is "slow down". In this case speed was definitely not the problem, lack of riding well was.


For a lot of riders slowing down is the answer. If the rider in the picture went into that turn a little slower he might have made it. Too many riders crash from going into a turn too fast, (or riding beyond their capabilities) and for them my slogan applies. And it was meant to be tongue in cheek.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/09/08 02:12 AM

I dunno. I'm just not convinced you are all giving this your best analysis. I studied the riding photo until what was bothering me became clear. If you look at the sequence of pictures again - watch the near-field ground closely from one photo to the next - you'll notice that the pivot point is very close to the road, so this photographer must have been standing in clear view of motorists from both approaches - therefore greatly diminishing the surprise factor.

So, I ask myself, what did our driver and rider see that clearly distracted them up there in the Gap? Well, I digitally enhanced the series, carefully scanning for anomalies (I'm a government trained Intell Analyst, don't try this with commercially available equipment in a non-secure environment). I noted an image reflected in the windshield of the SUV, so I scanned, cropped, and cleaned up the image. Here it is:



I think we can cease the speculation. Now I ask you, how the hell is Ride Smart going to prepare you for that?!! I for one cannot blame the rider. You may feel differently.
Posted By: yabadabapal

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/09/08 02:56 AM

 Originally Posted By: Jake
I dunno. I'm just not convinced you are all giving this your best analysis. I studied the riding photo until what was bothering me became clear. If you look at the sequence of pictures again - watch the near-field ground closely from one photo to the next - you'll notice that the pivot point is very close to the road, so this photographer must have been standing in clear view of motorists from both approaches - therefore greatly diminishing the surprise factor.

So, I ask myself, what did our driver and rider see that clearly distracted them up there in the Gap? Well, I digitally enhanced the series, carefully scanning for anomalies (I'm a government trained Intell Analyst, don't try this with commercially available equipment in a non-secure environment). I noted an image reflected in the windshield of the SUV, so I scanned, cropped, and cleaned up the image. Here it is:



I think we can cease the speculation. Now I ask you, how the hell is Ride Smart going to prepare you for that?!! I for one cannot blame the rider. You may feel differently.


Actually this is a new advertising campaign form BMW.
Posted By: ESokoloff

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/09/08 10:04 AM

 Originally Posted By: elkroeger
 Originally Posted By: ESokoloff
I have to wonder if the rider became distracted by the photographer?

..... Surely your point is not to somehow blame it on the photographer!


You are correct.
I'm simply suggesting how the rider might have failed.
I'm not sure how you read my observation any other way
Posted By: wbrissette

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/09/08 01:10 PM

I've rode the dragon last earlier this year and it's one of those places that you have to be very careful not to get caught a bit off guard by fatigue. You go through so many twists and turns that it's easy to simply not pay attention towards the end. Speed is always a factor on that road. When I was there, the LEOs were out in full force. I was going maybe 35 at one point (limit is 30 in that area) and the LEO simply gave me the universal slow down sign. My buddies who were way ahead of me tend to go much faster than I do, so I know they were probably well above 30 in this area.

Anyhow, sad event, hope the rider learns to stay in their lane and has a full recovery.
Posted By: Bologna

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/09/08 01:15 PM

+1
Posted By: Bologna

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/09/08 01:36 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y681_PBAmc

Watch this and decide on speed,line,commitment. Just my 2 cents worth from a different perspective.
Posted By: Wyn

Re: Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film - 11/12/08 09:41 PM

How about HALFGATT!!! Sneaks and jeans don't cut it. One of two things will happen. He'll armour up or quit ridin!!
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