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Rider with no experience, killed while leaving dealership


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I'll chime in my $.02 here... Manitoba adopted a graduated license system 5 or so years back (for cars and bikes). To get MC endorsement, one needs to take and pass a Motorcycle Training Course that has both classroom and non-road riding (parking lot) portions. Can be done as one-day course, or a more involved multi-day course. Courses provide the bikes. If passed, that gets the person a "Learner's license". One can have held a car drivers license for years, and may have a learners for the motorcycle endorsement. There is a minimum of 9 months duration to the learner's stage. That means you cannot book a road test for at least 9 months. During the learner's stage, you can ride a bike on the roads, but cannot carry a passenger, and you can only drive in daylight hours (1/2 hour before sunrise and up to 1/2 hour after sunset), and must have 0% blood alcohol content. After 9 months, you can book a road test. You use your own bike for that. It must be registered/insured and pass a safety inspection prior to starting the test (makes sure all signals, horn, brakes etc works). Examiner follows in car and gives instructions via bluetooth device to bike driver. Lasts about 15-20 min. If you pass, you graduate to an "Intermediate" license... You're allowed a passenger, and can drive at night, but must keep 0% blood alcohol content. One needs a minimum of 15 months in the intermediate stage before you get a "full" license. If you have a "full" car drivers license you skip the "intermediate stage" when you get the bike endorsement. I think (?) that the repercussions for bad driving (i.e. a ticket for speeding etc) are potentially more severe if you are in an "L" or "I" license stage.

 

As for the practicality of it... When I re-entered the riding community last year, I already had a full M/C endorsement (obtained back in the 80's). So legally, I didn't need to do anything. My nephew took a day-long course to get his bike learner's permit, and I debated whether doing that would have value to me to brush up my rusty skills.... After talking to him, I decided not to bother. The theory was basic road theory, not particularly motorcycle specific... When I asked him, they had only briefly mentioned things like positioning within a lane etc (which surprised me). The on-bike stuff he said was beginner stuff. He said many participants had never put a leg over a bike before, so lots of stalling trying to start, several dropped bikes etc.... The riding portion of the test was very basic. Do a few cones, up to 50 km / hr, stop while maintaining control... My nephew has had dirt bikes, and he completed the course with 0 faults (and would have done so right from the start). The cost to him was ~$250 for the course, and that included the learner's test fee.

 

It seems that in the States that more advanced skills classes are common, and are something I would like to do, but they don't seem to be very common around here.

 

I think 2 things have kept some of the young squids off the road... 1) the hoops to jump through to get a learner's permit / MC endorsement and 2) how expensive bike insurance is here... and I mean the registration/liability insurance, that is before considering what the actual value of the bike is.... A year's insurance for my bike costs about 1/2 the value of the bike. And that is just for "pleasure" use. "All purpose" meaning it could be your regular drive to work vehicle is almost double the cost. (that means it's pushing $3K per year, which is approaching the local value of my bike). I'm told that Harley's are the most to insure. Hyper-sport bikes would be up there too.

 

So in theory, I think the graduated thing is probably not a bad thing, in practice there are still VERY green riders out on their own on the road for at least 9 months (with a Learner's endorsement), before they need to pass a "road test". I suspect these are the ones that may be the most reckless (?).

 

 

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BF204

 

What permits, training, courses and instruction, and partial license and permit is required to procreate, to have a baby, to give birth to offspring, as in a mother and father having, creating a child?

 

In your house, you may have many inherently dangerous items. Power tools, saws, a chainsaw, etc. What permits, licenses, training and education is required to operate those?

 

What about non deadly items that injure people every year? Such as knives, forks, thin pieces of paper, and zippers? Should the government have a continuous pretense in your house to assure that you do not injure yourself on any of those items?

 

What about crossing the street? Do you realize how many people are injured or killed each year in cross streets? Should the government establish a huge bureaucracy to deal with that?

 

The basic question we come down to is ... do we live in a free country or not?

 

Oh, wait, I see now you are in Canada. I withdraw my question.

dc

 

Oh, also, wholly necromancy or whatever the proper term is.

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John in VA

David13 - Respectfully, the inherently dangerous tools and household items you cite have no bearing at all on the subject of licensing/training for operating a registered motor vehicle on public roads, free country or not.

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JohnH

Using those tools, or any other thing with or without a license has everything in the world to do with a free country, a country concerned about individual freedom.

dc

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Marty Hill
JohnH

Using those tools, or any other thing with or without a license has everything in the world to do with a free country, a country concerned about individual freedom.

dc

 

Which is the reason in my travels in 30+ countries on my motorbike I see skill levels that are rarely seen at home. It takes more than a fat wallet to get a moto license in other countries.

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JohnH

Using those tools, or any other thing with or without a license has everything in the world to do with a free country, a country concerned about individual freedom.

dc

 

Which is the reason in my travels in 30+ countries on my motorbike I see skill levels that are rarely seen at home. It takes more than a fat wallet to get a moto license in other countries.

 

 

But yet you live here, so I guess it hasn't bother you too much. Doesn't bother me either. I see enough skill here. The big issue I see is people not paying attention, or making mistakes. And left hand turns.

 

What are the accident rates in these other countries. I take it what you are saying is those countries have far far fewer motorcycle accidents?

dc

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Marty Hill
JohnH

 

 

 

But yet you live here, so I guess it hasn't bother you too much.

 

 

 

dc

 

Quite a cute and stupid answer. Hope it didn't take to much energy to come up with it.

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JohnH

 

 

 

But yet you live here, so I guess it hasn't bother you too much.

 

 

 

dc

 

Quite a cute and stupid answer. Hope it didn't take to much energy to come up with it.

 

 

Cute and stupid? Well, how polite and reasonable of you to avoid my question and turn to a personal attack. I'm not really concerned with how much energy it took for your offensive response.

dc

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David, I'm thinking when you responded to BF204 that you took his post to be a statement rather what I believe it was which is an answer to a previously asked question.

Suggest you go back and reread the thread from the beginning for clarification.

 

And yes, personal attack's are not tolerated (much) here in Mister Rodger's neighborhood but you had cast the first stone at BF204.

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David, I'm thinking when you responded to BF204 that you took his post to be a statement rather what I believe it was which is an answer to a previously asked question.

Suggest you go back and reread the thread from the beginning for clarification.

 

And yes, personal attack's are not tolerated (much) here in Mister Rodger's neighborhood but you had cast the first stone at BF204.

 

Hi All, (again)... Haven't been on the board for a few days... busy weekend. David13... not sure what your point is. someone earlier in the thread made a comment about how they thought graduated licensing was done up here, but didn't know how..... I posted what the procedure is here. It is what is it is. As far as I can tell, one doesn't get turned loose on the roads with a car without some kind of required driver training / testing anywhere in the states (?). Not so different here, but the whole graduated licensing thing was aimed at trying to reduce the accident risk for new drivers (which are mostly car drivers)... And the main thing that changed when it was introduced was the requirement to hold a learner's for at least 9 months (which applies to all drivers cars and bikes). That is aimed to make new car drivers have to be trained/supervised in winter driving (there has to be a fully licensed driver in the front seat for car drivers with a learner). That means one can't get a learner's and do their road test the next day/week (like I did in the old days), all in the summer. So one can't get "full" driver's license without actually ever having driven with supervision on icey/snowy roads (which is a lot of the time up here).

 

I guess that because most people in the States actually get a driver's license (maybe even David13?), as opposed to just driving without ever getting one shows that most people acknowledge there is a role for some type of regulation to keep public roads safe... As for people's opinion about to what degree a gov't should adopt policies that are aimed at the "greater good of society" as opposed to deferring to "personal freedom"... that is a political and philosophical issue, not so much a motorcycle issue.

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But that's the point. Do, or have any of these programs reduced accidents. Are there any statistics to show that.

 

That's what I asked Marty Hill. Do any of these countries he posts about have lower accident rates.

 

Or is it a program for the sake of a program. A program to employ wanna be racers as instructors or does any of this do any good.

 

dc

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But that's the point. Do, or have any of these programs reduced accidents. Are there any statistics to show that.

 

That's what I asked Marty Hill. Do any of these countries he posts about have lower accident rates.

 

Or is it a program for the sake of a program. A program to employ wanna be racers as instructors or does any of this do any good.

 

dc

 

That was part of the point of my original post... that there are other factors in play.... For example it's so much more expensive to get a bike on the road now (insurance wise) than it was when I was a youngin. So, I think (?) there are far fewer 16-18 year olds riding bikes. This probably impacts the stat's more than whether a day long intro course was in place or not.... So even if the stat's are around (and public), interpreting them properly might be tough, unless there also stat's about the demographics that go along with them. I'd guess the proportion of new riders getting their first MC endorsement now is skewed towards middle aged guys (experienced car drivers) with the disposable income to afford the toy they've always wanted. A basic safety / intro to bikes course might help them more than it would've helped me when I was young, since I had gone through several dirt bikes before I was 16. I was at a big fundraising ride last weekend, and was surprised to hear how many older guys I met hadn't swung a leg over a bike until they were in their 50's.... a couple even mentioned that they found the course they had to take helpful.

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Here in North Dakota, we have a course offered by ABATE. If you pass it, you take the certificate to the DMV. If you have a drivers permit or drivers license, they tack on the M for motorcycle. So you don't even need to take a test at the DMV. $50 for the course. 4 days in the evenings, or a Saturday/Sunday course. I recommend it to everyone I know.

 

For as easy (to me) as that is, I'm surprised how many people I personally know often ride without any MC endorsement. I don't know if that's the case in other parts of the country. I think around here, the penalty for being caught riding without an endorsement is so low, they take the risk. And in my opinion, it's these people that are the most inexperienced and ill equipped to handle a bad situation. They are the ones need that course and endorsement the most. I just don't get it.

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snip... For as easy (to me) as that is, I'm surprised how many people I personally know often ride without any MC endorsement. I don't know if that's the case in other parts of the country. I think around here, the penalty for being caught riding without an endorsement is so low, they take the risk. And in my opinion, it's these people that are the most inexperienced and ill equipped to handle a bad situation. They are the ones need that course and endorsement the most. I just don't get it.

 

I wonder how their insurance claim would go if they were in an accident? I'd think that the insurance co. would not be inclined to pay out if you wrecked your bike without holding a valid license. I guess for an older cheap bike owners might not care... but there are lots of pricey bikes out there these days.

 

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For as easy (to me) as that is, I'm surprised how many people I personally know often ride without any MC endorsement. I don't know if that's the case in other parts of the country. I think around here, the penalty for being caught riding without an endorsement is so low, they take the risk. And in my opinion, it's these people that are the most inexperienced and ill equipped to handle a bad situation. They are the ones need that course and endorsement the most. I just don't get it.

 

My first 2.5 years after I got back into riding, I rode endorsementless. I'd likely still be endorsementless had my wife not wanted to take the BRC and I traveled along for moron support, and that was seven years ago. I figured since I took the course, I might as well get the endorsement, besides, it was fun going through the course with her and talking through the Sena's the whole time.

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Antimatter

I'd be interested to know how many folks would be willing to fly in a commercial aircraft where the pilot didn't have any hours in smaller aircraft (ground school only), and no simulator training in the model they're flying.

 

The current requirements for qualification in multi-engine, jet, instrument ratings, etc. seem to make a pretty good argument for a graduated license system.

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  • 2 weeks later...

In '84 started working my way through college as a salesman at a Harley dealership. It was a very fun job; up until the full-time salesman and I noticed that the boss had put his personal hot-rodded sporty on the used bike floor. We asked if he was serious about wanting it to be sold, and when the affirmative was given, the fulltime guy and I made a bet on who'd get it sold. I worked to make the sale on that bike, and did to a young man in his early twenties. Less than two weeks later he'd crashed that bike into a truck while racing onto the highway, and killed himself :(

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