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#862406 - 11/21/13 04:07 PM Re: So what lesson do you think this mother taught her children? [Re: FLrider]  
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Sil Offline
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It saddens me to see the level all this has fallen to. I think we all agree that the driver screwed up. But things go wrong on many levels here and there are some serious breaches of professionalism. One, whether there were other people in the van or not, does speeding (or even possessing drug paraphernalia) and fleeing justify a death sentence for the driver? In my past life we were taught to use the minimal amount of force necessary to control the situation, and to use non-lethal methods when we could. Sometimes that meant allowing stupidity to unfold and then dealing with the mess afterwards, as long as the ramifications of stupidity were non-violent, nothing was lost. More importantly I noticed that the person who discharged his firearm was not aware of what had happened, or what potential for collateral damage existed. That is an offense worthy of termination at the least and legal charges at the most. Sorry, there is no excuse for stupid on either side.


Be good,
Mike K.

2002 R1150 RT Blurple
#862407 - 11/21/13 04:07 PM Re: So what lesson do you think this mother taught her children? [Re: Mike]  
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Originally Posted By: Mike


And to put that in context, I was raised in the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. laugh


We in the ELCA always thought you Missouri types were "off"

rofl

Last edited by Matts_12GS; 11/21/13 04:07 PM.

Matt


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" ...if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? " --Ronald Reagan
#862413 - 11/21/13 05:01 PM Re: So what lesson do you think this mother taught her children? [Re: upflying]  
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Originally Posted By: upflying
Attorneys and liability has entered the cesspool of police pursuits now.
If the violator you are chasing was originally observed committing a non-hazardous violation, such as registration, license plates, lights, tires, windows, tint, smoke, then the pursuit must be terminated.
And if the pursuit goes the wrong way on a freeway, through a school zone, inclement weather, heavy traffic, lots of peds in the area, then the pursuit must be terminated.
Only time carte blanche is granted in a pursuit if the bad guy just committed a murder or is shooting back at you.
Ca has a lot of bad guys roaming our communities now due to AB109.


"Attorneys and liability has entered the cesspool of police pursuits now. "

I would say justifiably so.
We are not in the wild west anymore, where it was -eye for an eye on site justice.

as it is seen in this video - mom is driving through a town trying to flee, likely in distress from being fired upon. She is driving recklessly carelessly in wrong way traffic.
the likelihood of colliding with an other vehicle is much greater and head-on collisions usually don to turn out good.

If injury or death would have occurred (to the occupants or to occupants of an other colliding innocent vehicle) because of the chase, you know that lawyers would have been on this case like flies on sh$%^ paper.

picture the scenario where this driver hits an other minivan full of kids and some die. Was the successful chase/capture or a later apprehension worth it?

#862432 - 11/21/13 08:11 PM Re: So what lesson do you think this mother taught her children? [Re: FLrider]  
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Yep, that is the way police chiefs in Ca put it in department policies..
"Is the risk of pursuit worth the goal of capture"?
Fleeing felons who used deadly force to avoid capture and/or used deadly force in the commission of the crime..absolutely!
Fleeing motorists who don't want a ticket for speeding..usually not.

Last edited by upflying; 11/21/13 08:12 PM.

Bob
Reno,NV

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Logical politics is the Holy Grail of oxymorons.
#862518 - 11/22/13 02:59 PM Re: So what lesson do you think this mother taught her children? [Re: upflying]  
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Look on the positive side!
this will make some great training videos for cadets and vets alike.

DOn't shoot at the rear of fleeing vehicle aiming low trying to hit the tires, you may hit the fuel tank instead.
Fiery bang and crash with chard bodies = NOt GOOD!
Effectiveness of using a baton to bust of windows = check
Busting out windows on passenger side where the children is located= no good!
all children in the vehicle will resent authority for life= check

#862574 - 11/22/13 07:53 PM Re: So what lesson do you think this mother taught her children? [Re: FLrider]  
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I'm sure that some of the professional LEO's on this forum will make better observations than I, but here goes:

  • Woman is clearly in the wrong. She was stupid in the beginning, she got her son into trouble, and she obviously lost it as the officer escalated the incident.
  • The initial contact officer's first mistake: Not waiting for backup before approaching a vehicle which (a) had already fled and (b) had multiple occupants. One officer can deal with 4-5 subjects, but it's far less safe than having a second, or 3 or 4 people to separate the perps, search, interview, etc. His second mistake was in raising his voice. He was clearly angry, and let his anger escalate tensions in the situation. Whatever was going on with that woman, a forceful, calm, "command presence" beats raising his voice and screaming. He had managed to get her out of the van at one point, and was starting to gain control of the situation. He just wasn't able to cope with the situation when the woman and her son's behavior spun out of control.
  • On the other hand, the officer had to assume that the woman fled the initial stop because (a) the woman or another occupant was subject to an open warrant, (b) the woman had some other legal problem, i.e. drugs in the vehicle, (c) the woman could have been under duress (how could the officer be certain that the "young man" in the vehicle was related to her; there's no way of knowing). The officer had to stop that vehicle, aside from the risks the fleeing vehicle posed to the public at large.
  • The initial contact officer's mistakes were manifest when he was running around chasing both the mother and son, and culminated when he FAILED TO DO THE OBVIOUS, FIRST PRIORITY beyond self-defense and protection of the innocent, which was to REMOVE THE KEYS FROM THE VEHICLE. When the woman stepped out of the vehicle and began heading towards the back fo the van, he should have reached in and removed her keys. Hind sight is, of course 20/20, but I'd have to think that this would be standard procedures any time a vehicle flees. When you get it stopped, remove the keys from the perp. This is probably the officer's largest error in judgment, i.e. dwarfing the others.
  • I can't fathom the second officer firing on the vehicle. What was his target? Perhaps the tires, however, once that round leaves the chamber, chance takes over. That round could have ricocheted into the gas tank, or into an innocent occupant. He also erred when he parked his patrol car but failed to block the van, which had just been stopped after fleeing. That's a bit more subjective, i.e. there could be other reasons for positioning the patrol car where it was, but again, Police Academy 101, once you stop a fleeing vehicle make sure it stays stopped. We don't know what the second officer knew when he arrived, but evidently he thought it was a "life or death" situation for someone, or it's unlikely he would have fired his handgun.

Errors in judgment occurred all around. My feeling is that no one died in this event, and much can be learned from it. If the woman simply panicked, had no priors and was otherwise a regular citizen, then the prosecutor should plead this down to a misdemeanor and make counseling and perhaps community service part of her penalty. Ditto for her son. Not every stupid mistake needs to ruin lives.

Ditto for the LEO's. As bad as their behavior was, and depending on the officer's prior reputation and service, the supervisors should use this as a training opportunity. Suspension, for certain, for at least the officer who discharged his weapon, and letters for both in their service jacket, but termination or criminal prosecution is not particularly appropriate, given the events presented.

Similarly, this (first contact) officer should understand how his errors impacted the lives influenced by his law enforcement presence. Had he handle the situation more appropriately, the woman, her son, and that family may have been helped, rather than harmed (though, again, what happened was primarily her responsibility). Some of the risky behavior might have been avoided. In his support, a fellow officer fired on the vehicle and will have to pay the price for that indiscretion. I would think that this incident would be a particularly good training aid explaining to young officers the responsibilities, priorities, and actions of an officer making first contact. They set the tone for the entire encounter.

So, I'm not advocating giving a pass to anyone in this incident. The LEO's need training, better composure, to use better judgment, and a dose of common sense. All of those things CAN be learned, resulting in better law enforcement for the community. The woman and her son's lives can be reclaimed. Better scars rather than ruin, for all concerned, absent other prior issues.

- Scott

#862576 - 11/22/13 08:01 PM Re: So what lesson do you think this mother taught her children? [Re: Mike]  
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Originally Posted By: Mike
Originally Posted By: FLrider

...and the boy who rushes the officer.... It's obvious what he's been raised to think about rules and the costs of breaking them....and the people who try to enforce them.


This is really the only point which I'd question. Mom doesn't appear to set a stellar example and you might be right, but I would've kicked God Himself in the nuts at that age if I thought he was threatening my mama.

And to put that in context, I was raised in the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. laugh


Yup, it may be a permanent handicap, but proud of it. rofl

#862892 - 11/25/13 08:19 PM Re: So what lesson do you think this mother taught her children? [Re: Mike]  
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Originally Posted By: Mike
Not everyone, but a sizable number of officers, no longer seem to appreciate the nuances of how to interact in a way that maintains control without leading to escalation. It's not always going to work, but these officers need to be given the tools to deal with situations like this.


Youíre right. Although retired for four years, my wife still works as an LEO and as a training officer. While not to lump all the younger Generation Y officers in one pile, what I saw right before I retired and what my wife sees now while training some of these folks; is that they are more equipped to deal with people via their smart phones and tablets than in person.

Some of these younger officers are almost completely devoid of interpersonal, social skills. The police academy is to teach you the basic skills needed to become a police officer. A 19 to 26 week field training period is to teach an officer how to refine those skills and hopefully survive.

Upflying is right when he writes of the attorneys and the liability issues invading police work. Newer officers are being taught that if you use force on someone, youíll be sued. This is causing some officers to be hesitant in using force when necessary; and sometimes even failing to recognize the fact that force is needed. Being behind the curve when that occurs is a bad place to be; and can lead into the wide open gap that shows up between inaction and over reaction. Thatís bad for all parties involved.


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#862929 - 11/26/13 12:49 AM Re: So what lesson do you think this mother taught her children? [Re: dba]  
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dba is right, Rodney King changed forever the way cops do their work. I've been to many calls that were deescalated only to have another officer show up and build tensions again.
The goal is not to use force on someone. It messes up uniforms, gets you hurt, greatly increases report writing and causes bystanders to conclude "police brutality".
I always found if I took a moment to slow things down, remain calm, treat everyone with respect, explain the why and how, I could get violent people to submit peacefully to arrest. The important thing is to always "ask" someone to do something and never "tell" someone to do something.
Much of the technique comes from "verbal judo" taught by the late Dr. George Thompson. I always try to sound like I care about about the problem or the situation. Basically the cop has to sell an arrest to a bad guy. Dr. Thompson said "empathy" is the most powerful word in the English language. Empathy goes a long way to being an effective LEO. Empathy could have gone a long way to prevent what we saw on the New Messico video.
I agree, generation "Smart Phone" is not equipped for face to face social interaction.

Last edited by upflying; 11/26/13 01:02 AM.

Bob
Reno,NV

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2001 HD FLHPi (former work bike)
2009 HD FLHPi 103" (former work bike)
1972 Honda CT-90 garage queen

Logical politics is the Holy Grail of oxymorons.
#864204 - 12/07/13 11:39 PM Re: So what lesson do you think this mother taught her children? [Re: FLrider]  
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I think we all predicted this happening. It was a bad shooting.
Read somewhere where Officer Montoya treated the whole family to McDonalds after the shooting. A bit too late and too little for apologies..
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=9352108

Last edited by upflying; 12/07/13 11:42 PM.

Bob
Reno,NV

2014 HD FXDC
2001 HD FLHPi (former work bike)
2009 HD FLHPi 103" (former work bike)
1972 Honda CT-90 garage queen

Logical politics is the Holy Grail of oxymorons.
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