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Garmin Off-Road Routing Experts


TyTass

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Using a Garmin Zumo 595 and creating/editing routes via BaseCamp for PC, I'm running into lots of problems creating routes that traverse roads that aren't covered by the Garmin map set. I know it can be accomplished, but I'm not thrilled with the side-effects.

 

Here are the two ways I know how to traverse gaps in the Garmin map set:

1. Direct Conversion – If a track already exists, simply convert the whole track to a route.

2. Additive Method – Create a series of routes that traverse the roads currently covered by the Garmin Map set. Then convert the first route into a track. Add to the end of that track a number of points (that at least somewhat represents the road not covered by Garmin Map set) until you get to the start of the next route segment you drew. Reconvert that modified track back to a route. It will now cover the gap previous shown. Combine that route with the next route. The repeat those steps for the next gap (if any) and subsequent routes (deleting the old segments along the way).

 

Is there another way? More importantly, is there a way to add waypoints to a route that was converted from a track. The reason I ask is routes created in either of these two ways they "blow up" whenever modified.

 

When a route is created by converting a track, there are not waypoints except a start and endpoint (generally). When a route is converted into a track, and then back to a route (as described in #2 above), all the original waypoint are gone.

 

I have found that such routes can withstand recalculation, but they do not tolerate any editing whatsoever. The moment they are modified by adding a waypoint, adding a shaping point, or by stretching the route to another location (which is also adding a point), the route is then constrained to ONLY the roads that the Garmin map set shows as connected. Thus, the route gets rerouted all the way around to the other side of the gap in the Garmin map set. IOW It "blows up" and is then unable to route a person over those gaps in the Garmin map set.

 

How to you off-road pros account for this via Garmin? Is it possible.

 

(For folks who use hardcopy maps, route directions, etc. in such areas, please don’t bother to chime in. I already get that. I’m searching for folks who have solved this issue in Garmin. Thanks.)

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Afternoon Craig

 

First off I haven't worked that much with the 595 but have with other of the Zumo series.

 

As you have found the Zumo doesn't make it easy to do what you want to do if there are no navigable roads that the Zumo can route over.

 

Unfortunately when you send a route to a Zumo you are just sending points then the Zumo makes a route internally to match it's routable map data. (ie no routable roads then the Zumo hasn't a clue)

 

Long ago I gave up on tying to force the Zumo's to route over roads that it doesn't see as routable (used to use a 60 CSX now use the Montana 600. The Montana will take a route no matter the road & happily allow you to route there complete with custom way points, special routing points, custom points of interest, no road, fire road, single track, or allow you to stop routing & just use a destination arrow to generally work your way to the next routable road or start of next routable section by always pointing to next destination or start of next route section. You can even ride a track (yours or someone else's) as a sort of route.

 

Back to your question-- If there are no (or not continuous) routable roads then you can make separate routes on the routable parts then use direct routing for the non routable parts. A pain but does work (sort of).

 

Unfortunately even if you force the route using track conversions it all goes crazy if the Zumo does an unintended recalculation (under some circumstances it can do that even if you have re-calculate turned off). It can't also snap off your intended course to a routable road if your forced route gets near a routable road.

 

One thing that you can try is to download Open Street maps & try using that map. Those are open maps that are not locked so all the Open street users can keep them updated & even add in current non routable sections as routable roads. Maybe someone in your area has already added in the roads that you are currently having trouble routing over (If the Open Street map has been updated in your intended riding area then it makes routing in those areas a piece of cake on the Zumo)

 

 

My one big complaint with the Zumo series is it's inability to easily mix routable sections with non routable sections without a lot of aggravation. The Zumo also has the ability to do unintended un-noticed re-calculations that can significantly change a route even while riding it. The Zumo is great road type motorcycle GPS but is lacking for un-routable areas or serious off-road use.

 

Added: On your route from converted tracks?-- A track contains many/many points & your Zumo has a route point limit so you might have too many (hidden) points in your converted route when you send it to your Zumo. The Zumo will automatically truncate the route (or just split it) so it doesn't exceed it's pre-route point limit but when you add a new way point, via point or, poi that might again push it over the point limit & cause the Zumo to have routing issues or just remove a point of two that it previously needed for route shaping.

 

If you have Base Camp-- that program has a way to manually tunicate the points to a set limit then you can verify the route still follows your intended path.

Edited by dirtrider
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Thanks, D.R.

 

First off ... Great response!

 

And secondly, to both ... I see that I typed my Zumo incorrectly ... duh. I have a 590LM and know that I have a 590LM. The software version is 3.30 (current).

 

D.R., I just took one of the routes segments I created by editing a track to cross several gaps in the maps and loaded in my 590. It imported it just fine ... i.e., appears exactly as it did in my BaseCamp.

 

Since I'm about 500 miles from that area, I turned my receiver off and then started the route in simulation mode. It started out following the route just fine until the point that it encountered the first "gap." The simulated rider then started slowly backtracking (literally riding in reverse ... haha). It went back to the start of the route.

 

So, despite that being simulation mode, I think it's clear that it would likely have recalculated at the point where it started to backtrack ... and, like you said, would have routed the rider to the next possible point via known roads.

 

I ran the simulation again, but this time when the rider got to the start of the "gap", I recalculated the route in Off-Road mode. The route then became a straight line direct to the end of the route. The rider started traversing that line, despite there being no roads. Of course, that didn't take the rider to the intended roads.

 

So, I edited the route to only go to the start of the first gap, and ended the route at the closest point on the next "valid" road segment. Again when I got to the gap, I recalculated in Off-road mode. It seemed to work just fine, but then I was not truly running off route as I would in live mode.

 

So, if it worked like this in live mode, it would require me to either have as many routes as there are "gaps," or have waypoints saved at the other side of each gap, recalculating to off road for each gap. That could be a lot of recalculation, and operating the GPS rather than riding. What a PITA!

 

Clearly, this proves most everything you said. The conclusion seems to be that there's really no effective way to do this using a Zumo, or most Garmin units for that matter, with the exception of the Montana.

 

Looks like I'll be providing some written directions or maps to route folks over such segments.

 

Thanks for the help.

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Hank R1200RT

i had another thought...an expensive one. Do you have the Outdoor maps for the area you wish to explore, or only the Automotive one? It may just be as simple as giving Garmin more money...

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Hank has a good point. The Zumo will let you load different map sets, including topography maps. I know that most serious off-road riders have these maps.

If the route is created in them and then loaded to the Zumo or Montana, it should work.

Craig, you may have to get someone that has a topographic map for that area to help you make and post the routes.

The other choice is to break it up in segments (separate routes) and rename the last waypoint with instructions, like (Ride dirt path go left).

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Hank has a good point. The Zumo will let you load different map sets, including topography maps. I know that most serious off-road riders have these maps.

If the route is created in them and then loaded to the Zumo or Montana, it should work.

Craig, you may have to get someone that has a topographic map for that area to help you make and post the routes.

The other choice is to break it up in segments (separate routes) and rename the last waypoint with instructions, like (Ride dirt path go left).

 

Evening Bernie

 

Topo maps probably won't help, they do have a lot of topo information but if the standard Garmin NT map doesn't have routable roads in an area then the topo map won't either. (even worse most topo maps don't have current up to date road info)

 

A topo map works good with certain GPS units using tracks but don't really add anything to GPS units using/needing routes.

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Hate to say it but load MapSource - it has the 'direct' option so you can build the route using the roads, change to Direct, and 'fix' the parts of the route you need to go from point to point without a road.

 

I've done it and it will work.

 

And you can still find MapSource available for download.

 

 

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Hate to say it but load MapSource - it has the 'direct' option so you can build the route using the roads, change to Direct, and 'fix' the parts of the route you need to go from point to point without a road.

 

I've done it and it will work.

 

And you can still find MapSource available for download.

 

Is the Mapsource "Direct" option different from the BaseCamp "Direct" activity profile?

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DR, look at:

 

http://www.garmin.com/en-US/maps/outdoor

 

It would be nice to know if this would give the additional roads/tracks/whatever desired.

 

"Turn by turn" on the 24K suggests it does, don't feel like spending $99 to find out though...

 

Morning Hank

 

I have a number of 24k topo maps. They are a great hiking or hunting GPS map but the 24k maps don't have any more routable roads than the NT maps do & in most cases are not as up to date as the current NT map is.

 

I do a LOT of off road riding & seldom use the 24k maps as the 24k have a great number of contour lines & those can obscure other features or road names. (24k is just great when hiking in an area with no roads as you can use the contours to pick your way around lakes & mountains)

 

Sometimes local snowmobile maps or ORV maps will have trails & other local single tracks on them that the NT or Topo maps don't. Plus, some of those local snowmobile or ORV maps are even available to load into a GPS. Problem is, most of those maps are not routable so need a GPS capable of riding tracks or if enough detail & a person knows the area they can just follow the road shown on the GPS screen without a route to follow.

 

If you are looking for a routable map of a certain area that has the MOST routable roads then try the latest Open Streets map first (Open Street is a free routable map). In some areas the local riders (like myself) will add some of the off-road trails & single tracks as routable roads so a street type GPS can route over those areas.

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Hank R1200RT

Yes, Open is cool - visited them at last year's Apple developer conference. Do you know if you can load their maps into the Nav IV?

 

Used to do some off-road on my Triumph Tiger - less likely to do so on the RT.

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Yes, Open is cool - visited them at last year's Apple developer conference. Do you know if you can load their maps into the Nav IV?

 

Used to do some off-road on my Triumph Tiger - less likely to do so on the RT.

 

Afternoon Hank

 

I know a few riders that use Open Street maps in the Nav IV. If you install it as a GMAPSUPP then it will have to go in along with (at the same time as) your Garmin NT GMAPSUPP mapping as one map set.

 

If you just send the Open Street to your SD card into the Garmin folder then you have to remember to remove the old Open Street map when installing a new or later version as all the Open Street maps use the same FID & PID so there can be a conflict with 2 maps running the same FID & PID. (I'm not 100% sure that the Nav IV will allow a drag & drop of a stand-alone map into the Garmin folder then recognize it) --My Zumo won't but my Montana will)-- I guess you would have to try it.

 

It's a complicated process but I split the US Open Street map into sections then usually just run the section that I am riding in (loads faster & takes up less internal space)-- I also re-write the sections as MapSource recognizable so I can keep the Open Streets on my computer & not have to attach the GPS for map access.

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Hate to say it but load MapSource - it has the 'direct' option so you can build the route using the roads, change to Direct, and 'fix' the parts of the route you need to go from point to point without a road.

 

I've done it and it will work.

 

And you can still find MapSource available for download.

 

Is the Mapsource "Direct" option different from the BaseCamp "Direct" activity profile?

 

No, I have both, have just tested both, and they work the same. Most importantly, using the Direct mode eventually led to a solution that seems to work ... well, sort of! So, thank you, Jim! I think I'm one the right path here.

 

Essentially, what I did was to use a series of route segments that traverse the roads covered by the map set and filled in with a bunch of direct routes that cover the gaps. I tested it in Simulation Mode and the resulting route runs as a "Mixed Travel" mode. However, it does so with various problems at the moment.

 

The most aggravating one is ... at one particular waypoint on a road segment, the bike just veers off into a straight line off route endlessly and I have to end the simulation. There are a few other peculiarities I'm trying to figure out whether they are limitations or anomalies in my routes.

 

I'll post more as soon as I finish testing. This seems to be on the right track though.

 

Of course, all this said ... I'll have no idea what will actually occur when running these route for real. I fear that what DirtRider said will come to pass despite the "Mixed Travel" routing ... As soon as the Zumo realizes it's off route (i.e., in a gap), it will need to recalculate.

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greiffster

Of course, all this said ... I'll have no idea what will actually occur when running these route for real...

 

:dontknow: That's right. Sometimes your Garmin will route correctly, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

Sometimes your Sena will pair with mine, and sometimes it doesnt. :dopeslap::rofl:

 

Seriously, though, nice work Craig. :thumbsup:

 

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Hate to say it but load MapSource - it has the 'direct' option so you can build the route using the roads, change to Direct, and 'fix' the parts of the route you need to go from point to point without a road.

 

I've done it and it will work.

 

And you can still find MapSource available for download.

 

Is the Mapsource "Direct" option different from the BaseCamp "Direct" activity profile?

 

No, I have both, have just tested both, and they work the same. Most importantly, using the Direct mode eventually led to a solution that seems to work ... well, sort of! So, thank you, Jim! I think I'm one the right path here.

 

Essentially, what I did was to use a series of route segments that traverse the roads covered by the map set and filled in with a bunch of direct routes that cover the gaps. I tested it in Simulation Mode and the resulting route runs as a "Mixed Travel" mode. However, it does so with various problems at the moment.

 

The most aggravating one is ... at one particular waypoint on a road segment, the bike just veers off into a straight line off route endlessly and I have to end the simulation. There are a few other peculiarities I'm trying to figure out whether they are limitations or anomalies in my routes.

 

I'll post more as soon as I finish testing. This seems to be on the right track though.

 

Of course, all this said ... I'll have no idea what will actually occur when running these route for real. I fear that what DirtRider said will come to pass despite the "Mixed Travel" routing ... As soon as the Zumo realizes it's off route (i.e., in a gap), it will need to recalculate.

 

Afternoon TyTass

 

As mentioned above mixing direct routes with auto routes brings on problems. Some are solvable & others will pop up if you miss a turn or if your direct route isn't the exact route that you are riding (GPS thinks that you are off-route).-- Simulation won't always show this as simulation follows the exact route, in real life your path doesn't always follow the exact route as some roads or route paths are different than on the GPS map.

 

If are going to play with direct routes one of the things that I have found that lessens direct routing issues is if you turn off the local mapping & ONLY ride on the world map. (this greatly reduces the chance for the GPS to re-calculate to nearby routable roads)

 

Also keep in mind that even though you get your own set-up working by mixing direct routes with routable routes the failure rate is very high if you give your mixed routes to others to ride as their GPS is probably not set up exactly like yours is (especially if avoidances don't match).

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Dang, DR ... why did you have to come in and confirm my fears? And I can see that you are indeed correct ... getting the route to work for me won't mean others will be able to get it to run correctly. And as that is my entire point of this discussion, I believe I know what path I must take:

 

Since the gaps in question aren't long and are obvious, I'm going to simply provide a series of route segments that cover the roads included in the map set. When riding in the gaps in the roadway map set, users will simply have to follow the road they are on until the get to the next provided waypoint, where they can start the next segment.

 

Seems the best I can do not being about to define my user base devices and capabilities.

 

I guess I should say thank you! I think! :rofl:

Edited by TyTass
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Seems the best I can do not being about to define my user base devices and capabilities.

 

I guess I should say thank you! I think! :rofl:

 

No, your other choice is to hire Roadscholar (Bill F.) and have him lead all the off-road rides.

:wave:

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I know Craig, that is why I am said what I did.

I have tried that before with him. Not easy.

 

Ah! I see I misread that. :ohboy:

 

Yeah, in general it's safe to say that creating off-road routes that work for the majority of GPS owners is very often impossible. :jaw:

 

Time to buy a Montana or similar unit. :money:

 

I've found this thread very informative. Thanks all who contributed. :thumbsup:

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I know Craig, that is why I am said what I did.

I have tried that before with him. Not easy.

 

Ah! I see I misread that. :ohboy:

 

Yeah, in general it's safe to say that creating off-road routes that work for the majority of GPS owners is very often impossible. :jaw:

 

Time to buy a Montana or similar unit. :money:

 

I've found this thread very informative. Thanks all who contributed. :thumbsup:

 

Afternoon TyTass

 

You sound advanced enough that you could really use a Montana type GPS. The Montana is not a dumbed down street GPS so there are a LOT of programmable functions & customizable menus.

 

Due to the advanced features on the Montana it takes an advanced GPS user to appreciate all the customization features the Montana has to offer (especially off-road or in non-routable areas). The Montana works extremely good with JUST tracks & no matching routes or both tracks/routes can be used together at the same time.

 

The accuracy of the Montana is exceptional & even works good under dense tree cover or narrow single tracks.

 

My only complaints on the Montana are lack of hard buttons for basic controls (but screen is sensitive enough to work with some riding gloves). And the Montana is still limited to number of routing points (in todays GPS era that shouldn't be). The Montana also doesn't come with an NT map, or lifetime mapping updates(need to buy mapping separate)

 

The Montana can be bought with or without a built in camera (I basically see no use for the camera for motorcycle usage but for Geo Catching or hiking it might have uses.

 

The Montana 600 is/was the basic full functional one to get but the slightly newer 610 has a few more features & can use European satellites to improve accuracy in some areas of the U.S.

 

The 610 upside is somewhat offset by the fact that Garmin has finally installed anti-pirating firmware in the 610 to eliminate using pirated & cracked NT Garmin maps (the 600 can still use pirated & cracked NT maps although still illegal to do so)

 

Here is a site that has a LOT of info on the Montana series GPS units.

 

http://www.gpsrchive.com/Montana/index.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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