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The Harley State


BamaRider

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I believe we have a generation which is less interested in owning vehicles, but I don't see how not owning a vehicle, be it a car, or a motorcycle, has anything to do with "personal freedom". Maybe I don't understand what the point was.

Edited by marcopolo
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I think we finally have a generation that cares less about it's personal freedom than the previous one.

 

I don't think that's the case at all. Their definition and perception of freedom is just different than yours/ours.

 

Their freedom is not to have a car payment, not to have to struggle with parking, not to have to worry about car maintenance, freedom to travel, party, work etc. withput ever having to worry where is MY car, how to get back home etc.

Owning and having to "drag along" your own car is to them like dead weight that makes them less agile. Less free.

 

They just look at things differently, with focus on doing things instead of owning things.

 

And "they" in the context of this reply = twenty something young adults who live & work in bigger cities.

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I think we finally have a generation that cares less about it's personal freedom than the previous one.

 

I don't think that's the case at all. Their definition and perception of freedom is just different than yours/ours.

 

Their freedom is not to have a car payment, not to have to struggle with parking, not to have to worry about car maintenance, freedom to travel, party, work etc. withput ever having to worry where is MY car, how to get back home etc.

Owning and having to "drag along" your own car is to them like dead weight that makes them less agile. Less free.

 

They just look at things differently, with focus on doing things instead of owning things.

 

And "they" in the context of this reply = twenty something young adults who live & work in bigger cities.

 

Going far from the original topic but what you describe is nothing new, each generation letting their freedom flag fly and all...but in the end all become invested in something. Soon enough, there is something to loose and they become the establishment. So, then how does an established company capture the freedom of those who have willingly forgone foot loose and fancy free for a more rooted life. So maybe sell cheap time shares and entice those who would consider owning their own with he freedom to fit that ride in between their gigs, kids and other commitments. OK now I'm depressed!

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Going far from the original topic but what you describe is nothing new, each generation letting their freedom flag fly and all...but in the end all become invested in something. Soon enough, there is something to loose and they become the establishment. So, then how does an established company capture the freedom of those who have willingly forgone foot loose and fancy free for a more rooted life. So maybe sell cheap time shares and entice those who would consider owning their own with he freedom to fit that ride in between their gigs, kids and other commitments. OK now I'm depressed!

 

I think the quote is

If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain

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I think you guys are thinking way to global on this. Yes the world is changing. Daily commuter cars are about to be turn upside down. I agree that the average college kid isn't thinking about a harley right now and is thinking about virtual reality. That said, I don't think motorcycles are in any long term trouble. There will be a revolt against the mundane when they wake up one day and realize they are wasting their lives on xbox and crave danger and adrenaline in their lives. Owning a commuter car in a big city may become a rare thing very soon, but that doesn't necessarily apply to recreation. Sports car that you, not a computer, can drive and motorcycles without dumb stuff like dual clutches (Honda are you listening?) will still find there place. I believe the next nostalgia market will be analog.

 

Harley is double downing killing v rod. Maybe they're right. I say good luck with that, but its hard to say what it might look like. Harley needs to stop thing entry level priced bikes are going to rescue them and start thinking about what that broke 25 year old will want when he gets money. Maybe they have and feel that its a harley, but having more than one line in the water right now couldn't hurt. I think out of Vrod and Buell, The Buell had more promise. They finally let eric go out and get a real motor and killed the whole line a year later. The v rod line really is very close to harley and really could be rebirthed under the harley name if they wanted. I think is they had stayed with buell a few more years they would have started seeing promise if they continued on the mindset of the 1090. Then they would have time to learn how to build their own motor and bring back the America thyme under the Harley network. Now who would trust Harley if they did start a new line that they weren't going to leave them high and dry will no dealer or parts support. I haven't heard if they are killing those two thing with vrod, but they did with Buell.

One other poster did mention the dealer network was part of the problem. I would agree but for different reason. How many guys on the sales floor knew much of anything about the buell and probably looked down on it.

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One other poster did mention the dealer network was part of the problem. I would agree but for different reason. How many guys on the sales floor knew much of anything about the buell and probably looked down on it.

 

The Harley Davidson dealer network is the best in the business. As long as you own or want to buy a HARLEY. Buells and V Rods are not HARLEYS. I went to two dealers in Houston and looked at a Buell for over 1/2 hour. No one even spoke to me. So it isn't just not knowing product, it is not wanting to sell the product. That will KILL any attempt to stray beyond the beaten path with the brand. Harley sells lifestyle. Not too interested in things that interest a typical BMW owner for instance ( probably the two most opposite attitudes ).

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I've seen children of friends not being interested in learning to drive until they exited college and entered reality. Now they own cars. As for the car share, that will work for those that can't afford their own or only need one once or twice a month. People like stuff and they want their own stuff. And people that do not own things tend to abuse things they rent.

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So, I'm 70 and my parents were 43/40 when I was born and they were youngest children ... I've been around lots of old people.

 

So maybe the difference between now and the 1950s is that a greater percentage of us haven't been smokers and maybe we actually are pretty healthy and get some exercise and eat well. That maybe wasn't the case in the 1950s ...

 

... and of course nostalgia for the 1950s and Harley Davidson go hand in hand.

 

As an aging Baby Boomer it's clear to me the trend is more and more away from nostalgia, and the next generations don't care much about me/us. They might be a bit more do-gooders too, i.e. maybe less interested in any bad boy image. No cigarette packs rolled up in t-shirt sleeves for them. Fewer beer bellies, too.

 

Yeah, I think HD is in trouble.

 

They've been an embarrassment to American engineering since the '60s in any event.

 

 

 

PS: owning/riding a motorcycle makes no one an expert on "freedom." That's got nothing to do with the discussion nor with motorcycling.

Edited by lkchris
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I had to stop in the local HD dealership this afternoon to pick up some new exhaust gaskets for my Buell. This stopped me in my tracks....the new Fat Bob

 

083117-Harley-Davidson-Fat-Bob-9949.jpg

 

I think they did a really awesome job designing it. I love it and think it looks even better in person. Only problem I had with it is I hate the feet out in front cruiser ergos. That and the $19k+ price tag.....on something that is basically just a motor, seat, and tires. On the bright side, I was immediately offered a test ride just by just eyeballing it for a few seconds. I would have taken them up on it if I wasn't dressed in business casual. I got looked at kinda weird when I mentioned I didn't have my gear with me for a test ride.

 

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Nice eye candy. Fat tires and 653 lbs are not encouraging.

 

BTW...thats dry weight...LOL. Ready to ride its 676

 

And I agree.....I mentioned it to Danielle last night and showed her the same pic I posted here. She liked the look of it and then shrugged her shoulders and said "You'd have to sell your GS, do what you want". I laughed and said "Not a chance".

 

I've toyed with the idea of picking up an early V-rod for years, but I could never bring myself to pull the trigger.

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Only problem I had with it is I hate the feet out in front cruiser ergos. That and the $19k+ price tag.....on something that is basically just a motor, seat, and tires. ......I got looked at kinda weird when I mentioned I didn't have my gear with me for a test ride.

 

It's starts at $16,999*. You must have been looking at one with the 114 motor instead of the 107. And, you should see the looks I get when I ride one the other twins in my High-Viz Olympia mesh jacket. ;)

 

20170915_164532-XL.jpg

 

No, I have not ridden this one yet. Soon though. The rake trail and wheelbase are less than the other softtails, but still a bit more than the RT.

 

Fat Bob specs: RT specs:

RAKE (STEERING HEAD) (DEG) 28 RAKE: 26.2

TRAIL 5.2 in. TRAIL: 4.5 inches

WHEELBASE 63.6 in. WHEELBASE 58.4 inches

 

 

Edited by Lone_RT_rider
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Yup....it was the 114 I was looking at. I didn't bother to look if it had any other goodies tacked on to it as well. I just glanced down, saw the $19xxx, and laughed.

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I remember the thrill of going from a 725lb Heritage Classic to a 550lb 12GS. What a difference!

 

That's nothing, wait'll you go from 550lb GS to a 280lb WR250 : )

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V Twin cruisers all seem to have weight problems, damn if the HD forum people don't bend over backwards defending the heavy weights as making them better in strong winds and for touring.

 

Harley is making progress, the new Heritage which has nearly identical dimensions to the Road King weighs a hundred pounds less. As for the Fat Bob, I agree it is over priced as I compare its style to the R9T I rode previously. I thought the R9T was over priced

Edited by CommuterChris
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H-D is indeed working hard to get sales. They've set up a number of "Two-Day Demo Tours" of the new 2018 models through Eagle Rider. Oddly, though, they're not free and not even all that cheap: $298/person riding two-up, or $495 for a solo (and only solo is offered for the Seattle tour).

 

Harley-Davidson Demo Tours

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I remember the thrill of going from a 725lb Heritage Classic to a 550lb 12GS. What a difference!

 

That's nothing, wait'll you go from 550lb GS to a 280lb WR250 : )

 

Bill, that will never happen. I have close to zero off road skill.

Edited by Marty Hill
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I remember the thrill of going from a 725lb Heritage Classic to a 550lb 12GS. What a difference!

 

That's nothing, wait'll you go from 550lb GS to a 280lb WR250 : )

 

Bill, that will never happen. I have close to zero off road skill.

 

No need Marty, with a few adjustments (seat and windshield) they make surprisingly good streetbikes for their size.

 

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I remember the thrill of going from a 725lb Heritage Classic to a 550lb 12GS. What a difference!

 

That's nothing, wait'll you go from 550lb GS to a 280lb WR250 : )

 

Bill, that will never happen. I have close to zero off road skill.

 

No need Marty, with a few adjustments (seat and windshield) they make surprisingly good streetbikes for their size.

 

Yes 94 MPH on Colorado 149 two summers ago. ;-) Ok ok, it was on a downhill with a tailwind but hey, the dude in the F150 Raptor trying to push me couldn't keep up! :-))

 

Pat

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The little bugger almost negates the need for a 650, I run my 250X (slightly longer gearing) 80-85 regularly, and at Colorado altitudes it gets around 80mpg.

 

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I was talking with my son this morning about this issue. He pointed out that many younger people would rather car share than own one.

 

I think we finally have a generation that cares less about it's personal freedom than the previous one. That, is sad....

 

Shawn

 

Shawn, I think you hit nail on the head.

 

Doesn't seem sad to me but admirably sensible -- owning and maintaining a car is their personal choice based on need, where they live and if/how they commute. Some don't particularly like driving and there's less peer pressure to own cool wheels compared to previous generations.

 

Some kids can't wait to drive; some kids don't care much. I don't think that defines or reflects a generational care about personal freedom.

Considering the poor level of skill demonstrated on the roads by the vast majority of cage drivers, I've got no problem if they'd rather not operate a vehicle. Keeps ride shares like Uber in business. It's amazing how many millenials I see using skateboards to commute. Since they seem to be more urban-centered than suburban, their commute is short and that is a viable option.

 

Why they're not on motorcycles, I have no idea but I'm not surprised they aren't buying HD: they aren't nearly old enough or rich enough (my car costs less than most HD's). Or interested in sunny Sunday morning rides for brunch with the rest of their "motorcycle club".

 

It wouldn't bother me an iota if H-D went belly up. Any bike that struggles to keep up with my Prius leaving red lights has serious issues.

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fourteenfour

 

It wouldn't bother me an iota if H-D went belly up. Any bike that struggles to keep up with my Prius leaving red lights has serious issues.

 

 

don't think they have made a bike that has that issue for decades.

 

on a side note, how are dealers doing with their K1600Bs? seems in some areas they aren't flying out of stores

Edited by CommuterChris
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on a side note, how are dealers doing with their K1600Bs? seems in some areas they aren't flying out of stores

 

I cannot say how they are selling overall, but I have gotten a surprising number of inquiries from new owners of the "Baggers" wanting a windshield. At least half of them are/were Harley owners. That is saying something.

 

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