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Superior Engineering Ideas


beemerman2k

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We had a thread about poorly executed engineering ideas, so I thought I'd create one to spark some potentially good and useful ideas.

 

Hope this qualifies as a "superior engineering idea" :smile:

 

For instance, riding home in the rain tonight and wondering about the quality of traction I had on the wet, oil laden roads, I thought how nice it would be to have a "traction grip" guage on the dashboard that indicated the measure of traction my tires currently have.

 

I envision a realtime chart with 2 lines, one line indicates the minimum traction required to operate the motorcycle on the current road surface, the other the realtime traction currently had. So let's say, minimum needed = 20, current traction 90, you know you're real good on traction. Go ahead, hoon it up, you're good! Maybe in a knee dragging turn, minimum needed = 50, available (given you've surrendered a significant amount of the tires contact patch) = 55. You're pushing it, but you're still in good shape. Not until available falls below minimum needed will your tire lose traction--assuming you don't have ASC or ABS.

 

But, maybe in the rain or on certain road conditions (snow?) minimum needed = 20, current available = 30. OK, things are a bit more dicey. And that real time currently available number is constantly changing with road conditions.

 

If I have to suddenly stop, can I without losing traction (ABS notwith standing?)? If I need to take a sharp curve, can I? These are the kinds of questions the real time traction indicator would answer.

 

In small measure, the bike already knows some of this information. The ABS and ASC rely on it. But I want to see the concept taken much farter to lend confidence or caution in various road conditions.

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This may be what you mean, but to be useful, the Traction Grip meter would really need to inform us of the traction ahead in graph mode so one could know where ahead the slick spots are (and to what degree) and then the rider could execute accordingly.

Edited by workin' them angels
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This would be good information to have but I think there are to many parameters that would have to be measured to provide this feedback. ABS and ASC are reaction systems meaning the system doesn't work until the bike is doing something that has been programmed as being abnormal such as differential speed of front and rear wheels or differential speed between front or rear wheel and speed of bike.

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In small measure, the bike already knows some of this information. The ABS and ASC rely on it. But I want to see the concept taken much farter to lend confidence or caution in various road conditions.

 

That would be a great idea, but I don't think we will see that in the near future. Currently the bike do NOT currently know how much traction is available or in use. It compares wheel speeds and ABS/ASC reacts when they do not match. In other words, it only reacts after the traction limits have been exceeded. I understand that some 2018 bikes will also have lean and yaw sensors to further refine and modulate throttle and brake inputs, but still, these are reactive rather than proactive systems.

 

To be useful, a real time traction indicator would necessarily have to be predictive, showing the traction available on the road ahead. I don't see how the bike could evaluate the road surface to predict the available traction. Some sort of camera/radar/sonar/laser might be able to gauge the roughness of the surface, but not how firm it is (Is that firm, coarse asphalt or loose gravel on new chip seal? Its that road shiny because it is wet or because it is covered in diesel fuel?).

 

Articles on autonomous vehicles have mentioned vehicle-to-vehicle communications, usually in the context of one car telling surrounding vehicles that it is about to slow and turn left. Maybe that sort of technology would be able to warn a nearby bike that "my left rear wheel just slipped at coordinates Nxxx, Wyyy." Even that sort of warning would not be available in sparsely traveled areas with rapidly changing conditions. And when I am most interested in the limits of available traction, I really do not have the time available to be watching a display.

 

I'd be happy if the engineers would just make bikes that can survive a simple stationary tip over without damage. Or an RT with a detachable lower fairing for summer use. Or a seat more comfortable than straddling a saw horse! And LED headlamps so we can quit cutting up our hands replacing halogen bulbs every few months!!

 

Sorry, I seem to have circled back to bad ideas...

 

EDIT: still typing too slow...

Edited by lkraus
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We had a thread about poorly executed engineering ideas, so I thought I'd create one to spark some potentially good and useful ideas.

 

Hope this qualifies as a "superior engineering idea" :smile:

 

For instance, riding home in the rain tonight and wondering about the quality of traction I had on the wet, oil laden roads, I thought how nice it would be to have a "traction grip" guage on the dashboard that indicated the measure of traction my tires currently have.

 

I envision a realtime chart with 2 lines, one line indicates the minimum traction required to operate the motorcycle on the current road surface, the other the realtime traction currently had. So let's say, minimum needed = 20, current traction 90, you know you're real good on traction. Go ahead, hoon it up, you're good! Maybe in a knee dragging turn, minimum needed = 50, available (given you've surrendered a significant amount of the tires contact patch) = 55. You're pushing it, but you're still in good shape. Not until available falls below minimum needed will your tire lose traction--assuming you don't have ASC or ABS.

 

But, maybe in the rain or on certain road conditions (snow?) minimum needed = 20, current available = 30. OK, things are a bit more dicey. And that real time currently available number is constantly changing with road conditions.

 

If I have to suddenly stop, can I without losing traction (ABS notwith standing?)? If I need to take a sharp curve, can I? These are the kinds of questions the real time traction indicator would answer.

 

In small measure, the bike already knows some of this information. The ABS and ASC rely on it. But I want to see the concept taken much farter to lend confidence or caution in various road conditions.

 

Morning beemerman2k

 

As noted by others YOUR on-bike's input would be way too late to help or warn you as a rider BUT it could warn the bike following 500 feet back.

 

The auto companies are actually currently working on just such a system (for automobiles & light trucks anyhow).

 

The basic plan is for cars to talk to each other & link certain inputs into an overall safety plan that can warn drivers based on those inputs out in front & to the sides. (way in the future yet)

 

In the mean time your current bike does have a system in place to read ahead on possible road conditions.

 

It has two optical sensors just behind the helmet visor, a throttle position sensor on the R/H arm, a body sensor loosely attached to the seat, & most importantly a very good real-time computer on top of the neck with read-ahead reasoning, past occurrence fuzzy logic, audio & optical input, & even a crude built in gyroscope. If it's used to it's ability & training then that on-neck computer is actually pretty reliable.

 

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We had a thread about poorly executed engineering ideas, so I thought I'd create one to spark some potentially good and useful ideas.

 

Hope this qualifies as a "superior engineering idea" :smile:

 

For instance, riding home in the rain tonight and wondering about the quality of traction I had on the wet, oil laden roads, I thought how nice it would be to have a "traction grip" guage on the dashboard that indicated the measure of traction my tires currently have.

 

I envision a realtime chart with 2 lines, one line indicates the minimum traction required to operate the motorcycle on the current road surface, the other the realtime traction currently had. So let's say, minimum needed = 20, current traction 90, you know you're real good on traction. Go ahead, hoon it up, you're good! Maybe in a knee dragging turn, minimum needed = 50, available (given you've surrendered a significant amount of the tires contact patch) = 55. You're pushing it, but you're still in good shape. Not until available falls below minimum needed will your tire lose traction--assuming you don't have ASC or ABS.

 

But, maybe in the rain or on certain road conditions (snow?) minimum needed = 20, current available = 30. OK, things are a bit more dicey. And that real time currently available number is constantly changing with road conditions.

 

If I have to suddenly stop, can I without losing traction (ABS notwith standing?)? If I need to take a sharp curve, can I? These are the kinds of questions the real time traction indicator would answer.

 

In small measure, the bike already knows some of this information. The ABS and ASC rely on it. But I want to see the concept taken much farter to lend confidence or caution in various road conditions.

 

I love it! I'm sure in the near future we're going to see tires, etc., becoming "smarter", with the ability to communicate to the bike's CPU. The bike doesn't have to predict or assume available traction, but could rather, receive intelligent data from the tire itself.

 

Next on the list, smart brakes that communicate stopping power to the CPU....:)

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It has two optical sensors just behind the helmet visor, a throttle position sensor on the R/H arm, a body sensor loosely attached to the seat, & most importantly a very good real-time computer on top of the neck with read-ahead reasoning, past occurrence fuzzy logic, audio & optical input, & even a crude built in gyroscope. If it's used to it's ability & training then that on-neck computer is actually pretty reliable.

 

:grin:

Yes, but

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That's exactly the idea.

 

Such information wouldn't be too late at all, the point is that you'd be aware of your limited traction situation immediately as you ride. Armed with that information. You'd adjust your riding accordingly.

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The point of the system is not to prevent you from wiping out, the point is to give you information so that you can make better informed decisions as to speed, braking distance, etc. based upon available traction.

 

Some roads seem more slippery than others. Are they? If so, significantly so? This system provides that kind of information.

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How about some others?

 

Detecting deer and other animals off the road

 

Heads up displays

 

inflatable Arm that automatically waves to incoming motorcyclists

 

Self driving

 

Cloaking

 

Holographic decoy image to confuse the cop trying to pull you over

 

Stuff checker-let's you know you left your wallet, ear plugs, cell phone, house keys, etc in your pants pockets before you take off

 

 

 

 

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But what's enough traction for one guy isn't enough for another. In other words, there would also need to be a quantitative way to input the riders SKILL - and even that couldn't be precise.

 

I don't know about others - but when I'm riding in the rain or near freezing temps, wringing the performance out of my bike isn't something that's on my mind.

 

At some point these aids will (are are) diminishing the needed skill development of the rider. This can only be detrimental - unless it's a pilot-less bike that is the goal.

 

Riders who've only known ABS, ASC, linked brakes, etc will not have the deeper skills, knowledge or ability to sense and feel what the bike is doing beneath them and respond accordingly.

 

One of the things (of many) I enjoy about riding is the challenge of the ride like reading the road, studying the horizon for hints of what's over the hill or around the curve. Being prepared for the added challenge of foul weather, etc etc. Managing the known and unknown risks and factors as best I can and always learning something from my ride. Obviously, there are other non technical reason I (we) ride as well.

 

I think there is a correlation of sorts that applies to many of riders in a quote about Jackribbits from Hunter S. Thompson:

 

People who claim to know about jackrabbits will tell you they are primarily motivated by fear, stupidity and craziness. But I have spent enough time in jackrabbit county to know most of them lead pretty dull lives; they are bored with their daily routines: eat, screw, sleep, hop around a bush now and then . . . . No wonder some of them drift over the line into cheap thrills once and a while; there has to be a powerful adrenaline rush in crouching by the side of the road, waiting for the next set of headlight to come along, then streaking out of the bushes with split-second timing and making it across to the other side just inches in front of the speeding front wheels.

 

That quote reminds me of a highly satisfying ride I had recently with endobob. When we arrived back at base, the first thing we did was high five and relive it, smiling from ear to ear.

 

Just sayin'

 

Now, a device that could spot and alert and keep wildlife out of the way . . . .

 

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I think you are over thinking this. Rider skill As nothing to do with it. A speedometer is simply a reporting tool, do with it what you will. Same idea here, it simply reports available traction, do with it what you will.

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Now, a device that could spot and alert and keep wildlife out of the way . . . .

Dave, now you are on to something we can use! My ST's headlight is the best all time headlight of the many motorcycles I've owned over the years. Yet it doesn't give me the confidence to ride frequently after dark because...............the headlight doesn't vaporize deer carcasses in flight! :clap:

Edited by sardineone
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On a serious note the best practical technology I want is already here in a limited amount already. That's the automatic stopping of 4 wheeled vehicles barreling down at me stopped at a stop light. With all the impaired and distracted drivers out on the road now days I sometimes think they will decide when the day I'll stop riding instead of me!

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I think you are over thinking this. Rider skill As nothing to do with it. A speedometer is simply a reporting tool, do with it what you will. Same idea here, it simply reports available traction, do with it what you will.

 

I think the primary point was that the traction you have "now" - when it is reported - is not what you need to know (if you're not going into a slide/skid then you know you have enough, right?); what you need to know is how much traction you have up ahead.

 

Your analogy of the speedometer works as far as it reporting the current condition, but it doesn't really apply logically here. I would say, to be in compliance with the law, you don't need to know the speed limit where you ARE you need to know the speed limit where you are GOING - just up ahead. Imagine if you didn't know the speed limit or any given point of road until you were already at that point - I think we'd all get a lot more tickets ;)

 

The same is true of your traction display - once I'm there, it's too late to do anything.

 

That said, I think it's a neat idea to be able to know what the traction is up ahead and it would make riding safer if it was an accurate system. I also believe self driving cars will make "driving" safer...but they don't sound like much fun ;)

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I think you are over thinking this. Rider skill As nothing to do with it. A speedometer is simply a reporting tool, do with it what you will. Same idea here, it simply reports available traction, do with it what you will.

 

I think skill does enter into. What one person can do with X amount of traction isn't necessarily universal - apart from perhaps going in a straight line.

 

Example: Two riders with same bike approaching the same corner at the same speed. One rider completes the turn and the other fails to complete the turn and goes off mid corner into the ditch. Everything is equal except . . . ???

 

 

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Evening workin' them angels]

 

Example: Two riders with same bike approaching the same corner at the same speed. One rider completes the turn and the other fails to complete the turn and goes off mid corner into the ditch. Everything is equal except . . . -- Line, throttle control, body position, bike lean, braking control, attitude, confidence, experience.

 

 

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isn't the bikes TC and ABS already gathering sufficient information for its own use? doesn't it already flash a light or similar to indicate its acted?

 

there aren't enough lights or such to stop stupid, worse some would think they are fine right up to that moment they push it too hard

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instead of an auto gyro to keep you upright....how about an auto lean that forces correct lean for the curve you are on...then we would all ride like Mark Marquez..

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Rider skill As nothing to do with it

Exercising my skill accumulated over 49 years of riding makes riding enjoyable for me. If I had to for a hypothetical example ride my favorite curvy roads 10 mph under the already conservative speed limits, I'd be dumbing down my skill level to that of a new beginner. I'd be bored enough to consider giving up riding. Glad I don't have to!

 

I understand what Dave's angle on the subject of electronic aids. Electronic aids that help me with the inevitable error in judgement or unseen hazards I'll embrace as long as they don't DULL the overall experience. An example for me is my Anti-Lock brakes that very seldom engage. That's because my skill as a rider for the most part render the Anti-Lock brakes unnecessary.

Edited by sardineone
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I've been taking Keith Code's California Superbike School courses for quite a few years. They used to have a contract with Kawasaki and used their 750s. There were crashes every day I rode with them. A few years ago they switched to BMW 1000s and I noticed less crashes. There was more horsepower, but there was traction control. This one difference made the accident rate go down 40% as told to me by Keith himself. The rider skills had not improved, they were saved from their over active right wrist by the technology. Some could ride well without it, but everyone rode better with it.

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I've been taking Keith Code's California Superbike School courses for quite a few years. They used to have a contract with Kawasaki and used their 750s. There were crashes every day I rode with them. A few years ago they switched to BMW 1000s and I noticed less crashes. There was more horsepower, but there was traction control. This one difference made the accident rate go down 40% as told to me by Keith himself. The rider skills had not improved, they were saved from their over active right wrist by the technology. Some could ride well without it, but everyone rode better with it.

 

Or rather everyone rode the same way, but the outcome was better.

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So all these ideas are nice, but my intention was simply a "traction indicator" instrument on the console panel. I'd find that of tremendous use.

 

When I lived in Los Angeles, I'd ride the rain soaked freeways thinking I had better traction available than I actually did, and that was because of the bikes ABS. One day, the ABS died, and riding down the 101 I decided to test my available traction. So I briefly pressed my foot on the rear brake, and to my surprise, the rear wheel locked up! The rear brake on my bike was ultra-weak, good for little more than keeping the bike stationary at a traffic light, so the fact that it locked up is very a very significant indicator as to how little traction I had. Heres a situation where knowing I had so little traction available would have been nice. Good thing I was on an RT and therefore riding rather sedately.

 

Taking some of your ideas further, a nice touch would be "smart roads", that themselves send out a signal as to their conditions. GPS systems could read these signals and as you map and ride your route, then you'd be able to see road conditions well in advance (massive federal spending, anyone? :grin: )

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I'm a man, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.

Totally off topic, but I have to comment that I think your signature tag is delightful, a great mix of humor mixed with some truth.

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A snow plow quality brush, extended to the front, about twice the width of a tire, in an aerodesigned scraper to remove the water, gravel, leaves etc. would be nice.

Add a cell phone blocker and ...

:Cool:

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Yup. Red Green. I should cite that properly, if I have to, I guess.

 

You guys have seen the "special products" at aerostich, haven't you? Lots of neato stuff I wish I could buy...

 

 

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Here's a thought: What if you could mount a CO2 cartridge inside the tire, with a miniature regulator to keep your tires inflated properly.

 

 

I love it!

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That co2 cartidge is an old joke. sorta like rotating the air in your tires. Sounds like a neat idea, but what really, would it get you? A few extra moments before your tire goes flat. What difference would it make if you flatted out here, or another 1/2 mile down the road?

 

At best it would need a TPMS to go with it. And then what about the slow leak, and replacing the empty cartridge. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

 

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Several years ago I looked closely at a flatbed with two extenders that was carrying a windmill generator. It looked like the truck operator could increase or decrease tire pressure from the cab. Not sure of the complexity or weight, but it would be nice on a bike..

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Several years ago I looked closely at a flatbed with two extenders that was carrying a windmill generator. It looked like the truck operator could increase or decrease tire pressure from the cab. Not sure of the complexity or weight, but it would be nice on a bike..

 

The military has had a system like that on their Humvee's for decades.

 

self-inflating-tire-11.gif

 

Complexity and added cost would be the back breaker.

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Here's a thought: What if you could mount a CO2 cartridge inside the tire, with a miniature regulator to keep your tires inflated properly.

 

 

Morning elkroeger

 

Not a bad idea but would have some issues that would need to be designed around. Co2 works just fine in tires, we used to carry large Co2 containers in our off-road vehicles as Co2 is basically stored as a liquid so you get a LOT of Co2 gas for a small storage container (plus it maintains pressure as long as there is any liquid remaining).

 

It might tend to leak out just a bit faster than air but not enough faster to make a difference & WAY less would leak out than could be constantly made up from an in-tire Co2 storage container.

 

The first hurdle would need to be some sort of external over-pressure relief system so an internal leak or malfunction wouldn't overinflate the tire. If overinflated enough (equalized) in cool weather then you could end up with liquid in the tire.

 

The second & a little more difficult to execute would be a Co2 container that surrounds the axle or has multiple Co2 containers around the wheel center as Co2 is basically stored as a liquid so would probably cause wheel balance problems as the liquid is depleted & turned into the gas used as inflation.

 

I would imagine it would also need some sort of an external re-fill ability.

 

The other problem would be the need to keep ALL the moisture out of the tire at initial fill (possibly a nitrogen initial fill). Co2 gas mixing with moisture forms an acid. (again not positively a deal breaker but would have to be accounted for)

 

Instead of an internal Co2 cartridge maybe a Co2 storage wheel hub with an external filling port.

 

The regulation system would also need to have some sort of smart temperature compensation to keep the internal pressure correct for the tire temperature without constantly letting Co2 in or out as the tire temperature changes.

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How about a live adjustable seat height?

 

I have my seat at the low position so i can flat foot when stopped.

 

But i would like to have it a little higher on longer rides to change my knee position a little.

 

A button similar to the windshield adjuster that lets me tweak the height as needed, Along with an automatic return to a "Home Position" when the speed drops to 5 mph so i can flat foot when i roll to a stop.

 

They do this now with the wind shield when you shut down and startup now.

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How about a live adjustable seat height?

 

I have my seat at the low position so i can flat foot when stopped.

 

But i would like to have it a little higher on longer rides to change my knee position a little.

 

A button similar to the windshield adjuster that lets me tweak the height as needed, Along with an automatic return to a "Home Position" when the speed drops to 5 mph so i can flat foot when i roll to a stop.

 

They do this now with the wind shield when you shut down and startup now.

 

BOOM!! We have a WINNER!!

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At AIMExpo last weekend, I watched many people trying on bikes for size, and then shaking their heads as they walked away, as they could not comfortably get a foot down. Even small displacement bikes were often too tall. I jokingly suggested to one disappointed woman that she needed an air ride suspension with a speed sensor that would automatically lower the bike at a stop, and raise it while in motion. I've since thought of a number of problems with that approach, but maybe they could be overcome. Even an inch of lowering could make a big difference for many folks.

 

EDIT: Just remembered that BMW's DESA now has self-leveling suspension on the GS, so maybe a little speed-sensitive height adjustment could be just a matter of software changes?

Edited by lkraus
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