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R1200RT 2008 Running rough - no idle


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Dear All

 

been a member here a while but usually manage to sort my own problems but not this time.

 

Bike running ok, filled up with petrol at Texaco. Got a mile and the bike stopped. Got it going again but running very rough and noisy and would not idle needed to keep over 3k. Got back to Texaco and parked up. Ran the bike a few times trying to figure out what was wrong - suspected petrol. Smelt hot and very noist/rattly like something gone in the motor. Gave up and rang for recovery. Whilst I was waitinf for recovery only 20 mins later, started the bike again, ran fine and got me home.

 

The next day, started the bike and running very rough, smoking a bit black. Took off the plastics, replaced the plugs, checked the tappetts (pretty much ok). The old plugs were black with soot.

 

I have taken off the tank, emptied the petrol out and taken the top off and removed every last drop of petrol with a sponge. Put in new petrol. Checked all plugs are sparking ok, checked coil resistance - all the same, by passed the fuel regulator, pulled the injectors both spraying. Checked bowden cables both butterflies seem to be hitting the stops ok. I have bypassed the fuel pump controller. There is a trace of smoke (grey) and the exhaust note is flat, sounds a bit like an old Brit bike.

 

There is no engine light on. Any advise before I take it to the dealers? The bike has 72k miles and BMW serviced until I got it at 62k miles ex UK Police bike.

 

Thank you for your advice.

 

Pete

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Dear All

 

been a member here a while but usually manage to sort my own problems but not this time.

 

Bike running ok, filled up with petrol at Texaco. Got a mile and the bike stopped. Got it going again but running very rough and noisy and would not idle needed to keep over 3k. Got back to Texaco and parked up. Ran the bike a few times trying to figure out what was wrong - suspected petrol. Smelt hot and very noist/rattly like something gone in the motor. Gave up and rang for recovery. Whilst I was waitinf for recovery only 20 mins later, started the bike again, ran fine and got me home.

 

The next day, started the bike and running very rough, smoking a bit black. Took off the plastics, replaced the plugs, checked the tappetts (pretty much ok). The old plugs were black with soot.

 

I have taken off the tank, emptied the petrol out and taken the top off and removed every last drop of petrol with a sponge. Put in new petrol. Checked all plugs are sparking ok, checked coil resistance - all the same, by passed the fuel regulator, pulled the injectors both spraying. Checked bowden cables both butterflies seem to be hitting the stops ok. I have bypassed the fuel pump controller. There is a trace of smoke (grey) and the exhaust note is flat, sounds a bit like an old Brit bike.

 

There is no engine light on. Any advise before I take it to the dealers? The bike has 72k miles and BMW serviced until I got it at 62k miles ex UK Police bike.

 

Thank you for your advice.

 

Pete

 

Afternoon Pete

 

It still could be the remnants of bad gasoline. Seems your problem showed up RIGHT after re-fueling.

 

You might try disconnecting the battery for about 5 minutes, then re-connect, then do a new TPS relearn (key-on, do not start engine, fully open & close the twist grip twice).

 

It might have some strange fuel leaned adaptives if you tried to run it on bad gasoline.

 

Or, it still might be a bad (or more) stick coils as you can only test the primary side & that isn't the side that fails ( secondary side fails & there is no easy test for the stick coil secondary)

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Hi DR

 

I have already done the TPS relearn. It could be a coil but I have also tested for spark with a spare plug. I have looked at buying 2 x new coils to test, quite expensive. It should be possible to test the secondary as the coils are what wee used to call an auto transformer.I'll look into that.

 

In the meantime I have ordered from Germany the Bike Scan 100 for diagnostics. The GS-911 is madly expensive in the UK and I find it annoying how they limit it so much.

 

Thanks for your help

 

Pete

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Hi DR

 

I have already done the TPS relearn. It could be a coil but I have also tested for spark with a spare plug. I have looked at buying 2 x new coils to test, quite expensive. It should be possible to test the secondary as the coils are what wee used to call an auto transformer.I'll look into that.

 

In the meantime I have ordered from Germany the Bike Scan 100 for diagnostics. The GS-911 is madly expensive in the UK and I find it annoying how they limit it so much.

 

Thanks for your help

 

 

Evening Pete

 

On the coils-- the secondary doesn't have a solid tie to anything so no reliable way to measure it. But even if there was the usual problem with the BMW stick coil is an internal arcing to the RFI shielding & that is not measurable.

 

On the TPS reset-- I only mentioned that as I suggested a battery disconnect to clear the fueling computer adaptives. The main part of that suggestion was to clear the learned adaptives. (learned fueling offsets)

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I'm not sure what your current issue is.

 

Is it still not idling?

 

Or is it rough running at idle, or all rpms?

 

I had both these issues on my '06.

 

I didn't get an engine light with either issue.

 

I had a GS-911 and once case, there was no codes. It was a bad stick coil. Another case I had a circuit shut off due to a shorted positive wire the ground against the steering neck at 92k miles. This shut off the idle circuit power along with a few others (like O2 sensor heating elements).

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I'm not sure what your current issue is.

 

Is it still not idling?

 

Or is it rough running at idle, or all rpms?

 

I had both these issues on my '06.

 

I didn't get an engine light with either issue.

 

I had a GS-911 and once case, there was no codes. It was a bad stick coil. Another case I had a circuit shut off due to a shorted positive wire the ground against the steering neck at 92k miles. This shut off the idle circuit power along with a few others (like O2 sensor heating elements).

 

It is still running rough and does not idle. It runs rough but will rev to the redline when stationary. I'm also thinking of a stick coil. What I don't want to do is just change parts until it works. The problem with the stick coil idea is that all four plugs look black suggesting that it is running rich caused by a factor that affects both cylinders. Also I have swapped them around and no difference. When I put a spare plug on each coil in turn they all seem to spark fine.

 

DR, I hear what you are saying about the coils but you may be wrong. In an auto transformer there is only one coil. This has three connections. Earth at the top and live in the middle somewhere. This is the primary coil. The secondary coil has a connection the common connection in the middle and the other connection is the spark plug. When the induced emf reaches a value high enough to jump the spark gap a spark occurrs. Surely the resistance od this second coil can be measured. Off cours it means nothing if the insulation is breaking down.

 

Thank You for your input, some ideas there.

 

Pete

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Just to be clear, I had two separate issues at different times.

 

As I recall, the the upper and lower stick coils both fire at idle, up to 4k rpms. If one doesn't fire, it should still idle.

 

I have also heard, the upper stick coils tend to fail. The lower stick coils hardly ever fail. This was my case. My upper stick coil failed and it could barely run over 4k rpms under load.

 

 

Hence, I think you have an idle circuit issue. You really need a GS-911 or something to see what the computer does or doesn't see. Because all four plugs seem to be running rich, I would rule out injectors. So, I would think it's a vacuum leak, Idle adjusters (I forget what these are called), TPS, or perhaps a very rogue O2 sensor.

 

I am certainly not as wise as DR though...

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On my bike the left side lower spark plug was not sparking and I can see an open old crack in the plastic with rust around it. Doesn't mean it's failed but ordered one.

 

Also ordered another top stick coil.

 

Checked the tps and it seems all wrong. The readings for resistance are wrong, I have compared it to 2 x sources. I opened it to clean it and there is some bad discolouration around where one of the solder connections is. I have remade the joints but it still reads wrong resistance wise. It's a very simple thing and you would think it would be fixable. However when I turn it with the meter on it, it is erratic. I'm just going to replace it.

 

I like the bike but the parts are expensive compared to Japanese bikes......

 

I am a Rolls Royce trained mechanic and I know what happens at main agents. I've seen it many times. Once those bits go on, even if they don't fix the problem they never come off......

 

It's sitting and waiting for bits now.

 

Pete

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On my bike the left side lower spark plug was not sparking and I can see an open old crack in the plastic with rust around it. Doesn't mean it's failed but ordered one.

 

Also ordered another top stick coil.

 

Checked the tps and it seems all wrong. The readings for resistance are wrong, I have compared it to 2 x sources. I opened it to clean it and there is some bad discolouration around where one of the solder connections is. I have remade the joints but it still reads wrong resistance wise. It's a very simple thing and you would think it would be fixable. However when I turn it with the meter on it, it is erratic. I'm just going to replace it.

 

I like the bike but the parts are expensive compared to Japanese bikes......

 

I am a Rolls Royce trained mechanic and I know what happens at main agents. I've seen it many times. Once those bits go on, even if they don't fix the problem they never come off......

 

It's sitting and waiting for bits now.

 

Pete

 

Afternoon Pete

 

A bad lower stick coil can really foul up the idle as the lowers have a big effect on idle & lower RPM's. Once the engine is revved up & at road speed a bad lower coil is hardly noticeable as the BMW 1200RT uses a phase shifted lower sparking map that pretty well phases the lower spark timing to be out of play.

 

As for the fouled looking spark plugs (they ALL look like that unless the bike is ridden out at high speeds for a distance. If a spark plug is pulled after idling cold, or after a cold start but no high speed running then they will look black & cruddy (especially the lowers).

 

I don't know what you have going on with your TPS but I have my doubts that it failed right after a fuel fill up on a warm engine that was just previously running good. Best way to measure those is with a GS-911, or at least powered up with the 5v input & a good reference low connected, then measure the output sweep.

 

 

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Hi DR

 

I appreciate the lower plugs don't make an enormous difference to the running of the bike but The plug cap is very badly cracked and needs replacing anyway.

 

To cover the Coil situation I have bought 1 x bottom coils secondhand - one of them must be ok. I know they are handed but they are swappable for test purposes off a 13k crashed bike - £29/$39. Off the same bike I have bought 2xthrottle bodies with injectors and TPS £99/$134. Off a reputable guy with a 2 year warranty. This gives me the opportunity to swap injectors in case that is the problem. I hope to keep the bike a few years anyway.

 

The fuel thing in my thinking is not the reason for the problems. Things can go wrong at any time but it would be foolish to ignore an obvious clue. Deal with the obvious first is always good.

 

I checked the resistance of the TPS and it seemed wrong and was not consistent. It also seemed to have a dead spot - 0ohms. When I opened it there was evidence of contamination. Even after trying to resolder the joints it looked wrong.

 

I am not displeased. I hope to fix it, if not I haven't spent a fortune and can sell the throttle bodies. The Bikescan -100 should be here in a couple of days anyway which is supposed to have more functionality than GS-911 - covers more bikes. I will report on this.

 

Thank you for your help

 

Pete

 

 

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Hi DR

 

I appreciate the lower plugs don't make an enormous difference to the running of the bike but The plug cap is very badly cracked and needs replacing anyway.

 

To cover the Coil situation I have bought 1 x bottom coils secondhand - one of them must be ok. I know they are handed but they are swappable for test purposes off a 13k crashed bike - £29/$39. Off the same bike I have bought 2xthrottle bodies with injectors and TPS £99/$134. Off a reputable guy with a 2 year warranty. This gives me the opportunity to swap injectors in case that is the problem. I hope to keep the bike a few years anyway.

 

The fuel thing in my thinking is not the reason for the problems. Things can go wrong at any time but it would be foolish to ignore an obvious clue. Deal with the obvious first is always good.

 

I checked the resistance of the TPS and it seemed wrong and was not consistent. It also seemed to have a dead spot - 0ohms. When I opened it there was evidence of contamination. Even after trying to resolder the joints it looked wrong.

 

I am not displeased. I hope to fix it, if not I haven't spent a fortune and can sell the throttle bodies. The Bikescan -100 should be here in a couple of days anyway which is supposed to have more functionality than GS-911 - covers more bikes. I will report on this.

 

Oh I also got a top stick coil s/h off a 2014 crashed bike with 136 miles on the clock for £49/$66.

 

Thank you for your help

 

Pete

 

 

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Hi DR

 

I appreciate the lower plugs don't make an enormous difference to the running of the bike but The plug cap is very badly cracked and needs replacing anyway.

 

To cover the Coil situation I have bought 1 x bottom coils secondhand - one of them must be ok. I know they are handed but they are swappable for test purposes off a 13k crashed bike - £29/$39. Off the same bike I have bought 2xthrottle bodies with injectors and TPS £99/$134. Off a reputable guy with a 2 year warranty. This gives me the opportunity to swap injectors in case that is the problem. I hope to keep the bike a few years anyway.

 

The fuel thing in my thinking is not the reason for the problems. Things can go wrong at any time but it would be foolish to ignore an obvious clue. Deal with the obvious first is always good.

 

I checked the resistance of the TPS and it seemed wrong and was not consistent. It also seemed to have a dead spot - 0ohms. When I opened it there was evidence of contamination. Even after trying to resolder the joints it looked wrong.

 

I am not displeased. I hope to fix it, if not I haven't spent a fortune and can sell the throttle bodies. The Bikescan -100 should be here in a couple of days anyway which is supposed to have more functionality than GS-911 - covers more bikes. I will report on this.

 

Oh I also got a top stick coil s/h off a 2014 crashed bike with 136 miles on the clock for £49/$66.

 

Thank you for your help

 

Pete

 

 

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Hi DR

 

I appreciate the lower plugs don't make an enormous difference to the running of the bike but The plug cap is very badly cracked and needs replacing anyway.

 

To cover the Coil situation I have bought 1 x bottom coils secondhand - one of them must be ok. I know they are handed but they are swappable for test purposes off a 13k crashed bike - £29/$39. Off the same bike I have bought 2xthrottle bodies with injectors and TPS £99/$134. Off a reputable guy with a 2 year warranty. This gives me the opportunity to swap injectors in case that is the problem. I hope to keep the bike a few years anyway.

 

 

 

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Ok something wrong been trying to post and even if I cut the post in half it won't work. Ordered some good s/h bits off a low mile bike very cheaply.

 

Pete

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Ok something wrong been trying to post and even if I cut the post in half it won't work. Ordered some good shipping handling bits off a low mile bike very cheaply.

 

Pete

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Hi DR

 

I appreciate the lower plugs don't make an enormous difference to the running of the bike but The plug cap is very badly cracked and needs replacing anyway.

 

To cover the Coil situation I have bought 1 x bottom coils secondhand - one of them must be ok. I know they are handed but they are swappable for test purposes off a 13k crashed bike - (pound)29/$39. Off the same bike I have bought 2xthrottle bodies with injectors and TPS (pound)99/$134. Off a reputable guy with a 2 year warranty. This gives me the opportunity to swap injectors in case that is the problem. I hope to keep the bike a few years anyway.

 

The fuel thing in my thinking is not the reason for the problems. Things can go wrong at any time but it would be foolish to ignore an obvious clue. Deal with the obvious first is always good.

 

I checked the resistance of the TPS and it seemed wrong and was not consistent. It also seemed to have a dead spot - 0ohms. When I opened it there was evidence of contamination. Even after trying to resolder the joints it looked wrong.

 

I am not displeased. I hope to fix it, if not I haven't spent a fortune and can sell the throttle bodies. The Bikescan -100 should be here in a couple of days anyway which is supposed to have more functionality than GS-911 - covers more bikes. I will report on this.

 

Thank you for your help

 

Pete

 

 

Reposting for LikeBikes

 

It was the "pound" symbol.

Edited by mnTwin
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Dennis Andress
Ok something wrong been trying to post and even if I cut the post in half it won't work. Ordered some good s/h bits off a low mile bike very cheaply.

 

Pete

 

There's a bug. Okay, there are always bugs. Some posts appear empty. Pressing the "Quick Quote" button will allow someone to read the post.

 

Goes back to work to fix his own bugs

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Ok something wrong been trying to post and even if I cut the post in half it won't work. Ordered some good s/h bits off a low mile bike very cheaply.

 

Pete

 

There's a bug. Okay, there are always bugs. Some posts appear empty. Pressing the "Quick Quote" button will allow someone to read the post.

 

Goes back to work to fix his own bugs

 

No worries I'm a programmer myself. I work with call centre software. I was a motor mechanic but one day I was the oldest guy in the shop..... I re-trained. I work with multi-user software and database management.

 

Thank you

 

Pete

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Dennis Andress
Ok something wrong been trying to post and even if I cut the post in half it won't work. Ordered some good s/h bits off a low mile bike very cheaply.

 

Pete

 

There's a bug. Okay, there are always bugs. Some posts appear empty. Pressing the "Quick Quote" button will allow someone to read the post.

 

Goes back to work to fix his own bugs

 

No worries I'm a programmer myself. I work with call centre software. I was a motor mechanic but one day I was the oldest guy in the shop..... I re-trained. I work with multi-user software and database management.

 

Thank you

 

Pete

 

 

Interesting. I was an aircraft avionics tech/electrician. When those jobs ended I learned networking, and taught myself software engineering. Here I am, writing software to route and manage phone calls.

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Interesting parallel.

 

I have been programming full time since 1995. I was unemployed and I taught myself programming for something to do. It was boom time in the 90's and I blagged myself a job contract programming Visual Basic. Lucky for me the other guys weren't great. Since 2005 I have had 1 client. The app is business critical and there is not much to do these days. I have to answer the phone 8-5 5 days and a manager can call me 24/7 but that never happens. I am retained. It's good for me as I am 68 - it's a hell of a pension.

 

Good luck and Best Wishes

 

Pete

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Hi Guys

 

The bike is fixed it was the TPS. Changed that and nothing else and the bike just started and idled fine out of the box. I did the reset first.

 

I changed the left side lower coil as well as it was visibly cracked. The bike seems a bit smoother than before especially in the mid range.

 

I bought the Bikescan 100 which I didn't need as it happens. However I cleared the codes with it and reset the service indicator. It's an impressive thing. You can do all sorts of stuff. Reset the date and time, idle actuator, adaptive learning, turn the injectors on and off individually, fuel pump on and off, check the audio, reset the ABS, check the console etc As well as the live data from the sensors read the O2 values.

 

Thank you for your help. It turned out expensive as I bought the code reader but I don't mind as I like the bike and intend to keep it. It cost me 500 pounds/$675 but I serviced the bike at the same time and have 2 spare throttle bodies. I also bought a top coil stick for $60 that didn't fit and I will try to re sell.

 

Thanks for your good advise.

 

Pete

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  • 2 weeks later...
Hi Guys

 

The bike is fixed it was the TPS.

 

What's the P/N for the TPS?

 

 

Apologies for not replying sooner. I had thrown it away but I found it in the trash.

 

The P/N is 13.54-7696412

 

Pete

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Kerry in Mpls

Thanks Pete. I have a minor idle issue that I have been trying to chase down for a very long time. I had checked and swapped out all of the usual suspects, but your mention that a replacement TPS helped you gave me something else to try.

I was able to figure out the P/N and picked up a used TPS on eBay. Unfortunately swapping it out didn't change anything, but at least it was an inexpensive experiment.

Thanks for digging through the trash!

 

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Thanks Pete. I have a minor idle issue that I have been trying to chase down for a very long time. I had checked and swapped out all of the usual suspects, but your mention that a replacement TPS helped you gave me something else to try.

I was able to figure out the P/N and picked up a used TPS on eBay. Unfortunately swapping it out didn't change anything, but at least it was an inexpensive experiment.

Thanks for digging through the trash!

 

Hi Kerry

 

if you see my other post about the fuel pump controller it might help you. My bike ran ok, bit lumpy at idle but it has done 62k miles. It was showing a code for fuel pump amplifier (fuel pump controller). Conventional wisdom is that if the fpc is duff the bike wont run. In my case the bike ran as well as I thought it could. I bought a brand new FPC on eBay of a guy who had bought it in case for a tour but not used it. I changed the FPC and the bike idles smoothly and pulls like a train by comparison to before.

 

Best Wishes

 

Pete

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