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#1001089 - 11/17/17 04:56 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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roger 04 rt Offline
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roger 04 rt  Offline
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Although I posted earlier, given the cheerleading and posting from the UKGSER forum I'd like to add a few comments.

To my knowledge, no one other than me has measured these chips to see what they do. On my R1150, they didn't alter fueling once Closed Loop kicked in and the Long Term Trims were fully adjusted by the Motronic.

The designer of these chips postulated for a long time that there were “Lambda” tables that allowed target lambda to be set in the Motronic. In spite of the fact that there is NO Motronic documentation supporting that contention, and in spite of my measurement of his chips that showed no lambda shift, he clung to the “belief” because other friends told him so.

Eventually I persuaded him to buy an LC-2, install it in his bike and measure AFR (something he should have done at the beginning of his project). He then measured the AFR with his LC-2 and agreed that the tables he was changing didn’t do what he claimed. Here's what he said in the forum:

“Finally, you are right about the close loop it is always 14,7:1”

He then went on to say that Closed Loop adaptation didn’t exist. ...

Although he has the LC-2 which has recording and plotting capability, he has never published a single log of AFR made while riding a single motorcycle. The reason is it would show, as I have shown after trying one of his chips, that his mods of fueling don’t do what he claims.

In addition, he certainly doesn’t understand the interplay of Closed Loop fueling and long term trims. If he did, he wouldn’t change fueling in the Closed Loop area. Doing so eventually erodes changes made in the Open Loop parts of the maps. (Power Commanders with Wideband O2 sensors block changes in the Closed Loop area because of this effect.)

Lastly, he adjusts ignition timing angles without adjusting dwell, shortening the absolute amount of dwell time and weakening the spark. There are other tables too whose functions he changes but has not shown understanding or measured effects.

In terms of unmeasured, cheerleading posts, I'm reminded that over 10,000 BoosterPlugs have been purchased and extolled. Although they do shift input air temperature, no long term effect can be measured. That doesn't seem to stop people from buying them. Worse was a temperature shifter called the IIceair. On R1200s, due to a design error, it didn't even shift temperature at all. In spite of that there were literally hundreds of posts exclaiming its benefits, until the producer exited the business.

#1001090 - 11/17/17 05:26 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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AndyS Offline
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Well said Roger.
Even if there were SOME truth to his post, the figures would be NOWHERE near what he claims.

#1001118 - 11/18/17 10:37 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Alan Sykes Offline
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Roger-the-'04-RT'er has long been an erudite contributor to this issue of re-e-promming a Motronic, particularly with regard to his comments on John The Greek's claims for his 'performance' chip.

But despite arguing the merits and demerits of Closed Loop Fuelling, target Lambda setting and Long Term Trims, etc.....

¿ How does one account for the sometimes dramatic effects on throttle response, better starting, improved smoothness and tractability that are reported by SO many purchasers, after fitting the darned thing into an 1150 boxer ?

Surely it's insulting to suggest that the expenditure of a mere sixty-odd euro induces in a rider some form of self-delusion / willing suspension of disbelief ?

Installing a performance chip is a radical step, beyond the wrenching capability of a large majority of riders: It's complicated, time-consuming and risky; struggling to get at the Motronic unit and then to open it up, can mean damaged fixings, badly pinched finger-ends and an irreparable box, apart from the fact that installing it incorrectly stops the bike dead.

But despite Roger's apparent erudition, and trying to forgive his denigrating comments on this and other forums on John The Greek's ability and motives in marketing his chips, it must be said once and for all, that those of us who've lashed out that princely sum ARE NOT KIDDING OURSELVES as to its effects on our bikes. Why the duck would we lie ?

We are not a John-The-Greek Fan Club. On the contrary, we are simply proving that an eleven-fifty cc boxer-twin motor unit can vastly exceed BMW's predetermined power and flexibility parameters.

AL in s.e. Spain

Last edited by Alan Sykes; 11/18/17 10:38 AM.

This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1001122 - 11/18/17 11:42 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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terryofperry Offline
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Al in s.e. Spain.

Hopefully you can see why there is skepticism. Do you have before and after data showing double digit percentage increases in horsepower, torque, top speed and fuel economy on your bike?

Thanks and be well.

Terry


Terry

Perry, GA
#1001203 - 11/19/17 09:34 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Alan Sykes Offline
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Thanks Terry - no I don't tend to go assembling statistical or other data, to prove that my recently-fitted roadster handlebar is much more comfortable on the Rockster than the OEM bar was. Or that the footpeg kit from a GS which I recently fitted, means that my knees are more relaxed than they were after a day on OEM Rockster footpegs.

Neither do I - nor I presume do any other riders - have comparative data before and after fitting the chip.

My satisfaction with the swap-out is simply based on 40 years of riding motorcycles, thirty of them on BMW boxers. To suggest that I've had a false impression of the comparatively increased flexibility, torque, responsiveness and fuel economy, is to question my intelligence, perceptiveness and expertise as a motorcyclist.

And that suggestion doesn't sit well in a friendly forum. If you don't believe that such a chip can improve riding satisfaction and give you a thrill at the change in performance, don't go spending sixty+ snoojits on one. But don't please imply that I'm deluded.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
¿ Are those rear-wheel chicken-strips narrow enough for you ?
https://s26.postimg.org/p5pjw5cuh/ALs_BMW_Scarver_outside_Ignacios_Bar.jpg


Last edited by Alan Sykes; 11/19/17 09:40 AM.

This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1001213 - 11/19/17 01:42 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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terryofperry Offline
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Thanks for the reply Al, I appreciate it. I did not intend to suggest that you had a false impression of the comparatively increased flexibility, torque, responsiveness and fuel economy, nor did I wish to question your intelligence, perceptiveness and expertise as a motorcyclist. Neither is there any intention on my part to imply that you are deluded. While assembling statistical or other data on the comfort of changing bars and footpegs is subjective, gathering information on horsepower, torque, fuel economy and Air to Fuel Ratios is not. Nor is it difficult. Realizing words cannot express tone, I do apologize if you I gave you the wrong impression with my question, I do appreciate the answer and take it as a simple no, you have not. The claims in performance and economy are quite large, thus skepticism on my part. It is great you are happy with the device and I wish you well.

Regarding the "chicken-strip" question posed, I have no opinion one way or the other.

Be well.

Terry


Terry

Perry, GA
#1001223 - 11/19/17 04:24 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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AndyS Offline
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Well Al, please ease yourself down from that High Horse of yours.
The developer of this chip made the claims of 'more HP, more torque' blah blah blah. This is not about who has more or less intelligence. It is about information:
The 'developer' claims: For all stock and mod bikes. ...Full remaping, torque +20%, power +12% more final speed.

Right, where is that date? where are the dyno figures, the spreadsheets etc.

Not seat of the pants stuff which means not a lot when the developer is touting figures.

#1001230 - 11/19/17 05:56 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: AndyS]  
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tallman Offline
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I'll contribute to the purchase of one.

On the condition the bike is tested before installing, and after.

If, and only if, all advertising claims are met will I acknowledge said farkle as legitimate.

The internet is full of claims.
Guaranteed lottery numbers, pheromones that drive the opposite gender crazy, among others.

I have a guarantee.
Tune your bike (a requirement of the chip), lose 20 pounds, put new tires on.
You'll be happier, so will your bike.


If my mind wanders, should I follow it?
Tim
Conch Town Krewe
2003 K 1200 GT
1996 R 100 RSL
1980 R 100 RT
1972 R 75
1968 R 50
All now gone...

#1001232 - 11/19/17 06:14 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Bert Remington Offline
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Roger 04 RT -- when you say "he adjusts ignition timing angles without adjusting dwell" does this mean the ECU controls current-on and current-off angles independently resulting in a variable dwell? If so, is the dwell fixed or is it varied according to rpm?

BTW this is one reason why I like capacitive discharge ignitions -- I use MSD's everywhere I can together with copper spark plugs -- no fussy platinum or fragile iridium spark plugs!


2000 BMW R1100RT
#1001235 - 11/19/17 07:21 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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roger 04 rt Offline
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roger 04 rt  Offline
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Bert, Yes, the Motronic has tables for coil current on (dwell angle) and coil current off (ignition angle). That leaves the possibility of varying the dwell time, but it doesn’t happen often. One condition that does have a longer dwell time is during the first few moments of cranking: from memory (I posted it somewhere) the dwell is about 3X the norm. That’s to get a good fat hot spark.

The R1200 and R1150 use the same stick coil but because it doesn’t use a “wasted spark” ignition, the R1200 has a 2 millisecond dwell time. On the R1150, that is cut in half to only 1 mS. In the case of a John-chip, the dwell was reduced to 300-500 microseconds, which is less than 1/4 of an R1200.

My experience was that even at 1 mS the R1150 is marginal. BMW boosted the voltage by adding a Second Load Relay late in the production run to improve coil charging.

Have you used a CDI on an Oilhead?

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