BMWSportTouring BMWST DB
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 5 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
#1004368 - 01/29/18 02:12 AM Re: Clutch Plate Movement on Input Shaft [Re: TedKerr]  
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 409
TedKerr Offline
Ride On!
TedKerr  Offline
Ride On!
Member

Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 409
Denver, CO, USA
Okay, the results are in. Have to say I’m pleased to see the input shaft is in far better condition than I was expecting. The clutch hub is in terrible shape.

I'm thinking, with an extended hub clutch plate this transmission is very usable, but interested to hear opinions.

Large pics below so apologies to those with slow internet connections. smile

Thanks,

Ted

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


Ride On!

Ted Kerr - Denver, CO - USA
'04 R1150RT, '14 Super Tenere, '06 XR650R, '14 KLR 650
#1004370 - 01/29/18 02:43 AM Re: Clutch Plate Movement on Input Shaft [Re: Jim Moore]  
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 409
TedKerr Offline
Ride On!
TedKerr  Offline
Ride On!
Member

Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 409
Denver, CO, USA
Originally Posted by Jim Moore
Just so we're clear, he doesn't mean "heat the pivot p[ins." He means "heat the pivot pins until your entire garage is smoldering." I literally rest the heat gun a quarter-inch from the pin and go make myself a sandwich. I don't touch anything for at least ten minutes.

No kidding, I tried for about 10 minutes with my heat gun this morning but the pin only made it up to 130 degrees in my cold Colorado winter garage. Got out the Map-gas torch and it took about 20 seconds on each pin to reach temp. Definitely will use my torch next time.


Ride On!

Ted Kerr - Denver, CO - USA
'04 R1150RT, '14 Super Tenere, '06 XR650R, '14 KLR 650
#1004379 - 01/29/18 05:39 AM Re: Clutch Plate Movement on Input Shaft [Re: TedKerr]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 772
nrp Offline
Member
nrp  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 772
Minnetonka MN
Strictly my opinion -

The transmission input shaft spline wear is skewed because the very end of the shaft is harder than the area closer to the transmission input bearing. The clutch disk hub is softer so that the spline ID can be broached in manufacture. That's why it wears more.

I'd be inclined to reuse the $haft and not tear down the transmission. Your expectations may differ. At least figure on a more frequent spline lube inspection & maybe in situ re-lubrication .

If you just replace the clutch disk and not the input shaft, you should consider dressing out the step on each tooth of the input shaft spline with a very small grinding wheel in a Dremel tool so that the disk spline ID will move axially freely without a catch.. Or you could chamfer the clutch disk hub so that the end of the spline doesn't have to ever climb over the tooth face step. If you don't, you may get the rough shifting problem experienced by many others when they are getting close to a spline failure.

I don't think the added spacer will accomplish much by itself as the clutch disk hub will still have a "catch" in its small amount of axial motion as the clutch is activated.

If you want to do a full tear down, alignment check, offset pins etc & maybe a new shaft, my offer still stands.

You have an excellent set of pictures. THX

Last edited by nrp; 01/29/18 05:43 AM.
#1004382 - 01/29/18 10:48 AM Re: Clutch Plate Movement on Input Shaft [Re: TedKerr]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,931
Jim Moore Offline
Member
Jim Moore  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,931
Jax, FL
I'm not in love with the idea. Your old clutch hub had one advantage. it was matched perfectly to that input shaft, so the forces were spread out along the entire contact area. A new clutch hub will only touch the shaft at a few points. My bet is that it will wear quickly to the same conditions. That transmission with a new input shaft and an extended clutch hub might be the way to go.


Jim Moore Jax, FL '99 R1100S '02 R1150GS
#1004386 - 01/29/18 12:07 PM Re: Clutch Plate Movement on Input Shaft [Re: TedKerr]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 14,520
dirtrider Offline
The Oracle
dirtrider  Offline
The Oracle
Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 14,520
Ohio
Originally Posted by TedKerr
Okay, the results are in. Have to say I’m pleased to see the input shaft is in far better condition than I was expecting. The clutch hub is in terrible shape.

I'm thinking, with an extended hub clutch plate this transmission is very usable, but interested to hear opinions.

Large pics below so apologies to those with slow internet connections. smile

Thanks,

Ted


Morning Ted

That wear wouldn't be too awful bad if your bike had 100K+ on it but at only 33K that is significant spline wear over a short mileage. Just remember you got to THIS wear point in only 33K starting from NEW PRISTINE splines with a full contact spline-to-spline match up.

How long will they go next time starting with partially worn asymmetrical splines that will not properly match the new clutch disk straight splines?

An extended clutch hub might help a little but that will just move the major drive contact to the very short unworn part of the shaft (basically very short spline contact until major clutch hub spline wear allows the clutch disk to start seating back to those uneven worn splines. That will probably make lots of wear debris that will accelerate the spline joint wear.

A longer clutch hub might extend the next failure mileage, or might decrease the next failure mileage, but until you run it full life you won't really know how long it will run, or how it will turn out.

About the only thing I know for sure is IF you just install a new clutch disk on those asymmetrical input shaft splines then your next failure will be sooner than the first failure. Now adding in a longer clutch hub to the equation might help, or might hurt, or might not make any difference. (you'll know that at next failure mileage).

I know it is a difficult choice but you are at a point that you will have to make a decision-- Do you just want it back together & ridable in the near future at minimal cost but will probably have to re-address it again in the future, or do you want it to be somewhat trustable for more that 20K, or do you want to take your best shot at making sure that wear issue doesn't strand you & the bike 1000 miles from home?

As it stands now IF you install a new input shaft & clutch disk then you can probably expect the bike to run another 33K before it gets back to the same wear that you are dealing with now.

If you just install a new clutch disk on those worn splines then you can realistically expect less than 33K before it is back to where it is now (maybe a lot less)

If you just install a new clutch disk on those worn splines with a longer clutch hub then you are a beta tester with an unknown failure point. (might go longer, might go shorter, might not make any difference)

If you install a used transmission with pristine input shaft splines then it is a crap shoot but at least you are starting with known good even splines.

If you check & correct engine to transmission alignment, verify no excess rear main bearing wear, install a new input shaft & clutch disk, replace any clutch pack parts that look to be out of spec then you have a good chance of having the splines go full bike life.


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#1004397 - 01/29/18 05:13 PM Re: Clutch Plate Movement on Input Shaft [Re: TedKerr]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,983
eddd Offline
Member
eddd  Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,983
Hurricane, UT
Originally Posted by TedKerr
Okay, the results are in. Have to say I’m pleased to see the input shaft is in far better condition than I was expecting. The clutch hub is in terrible shape.

I'm thinking, with an extended hub clutch plate this transmission is very usable, but interested to hear opinions.

Large pics below so apologies to those with slow internet connections. smile

Thanks,

Ted




Your transmission splines are not that much better than the ones I shared in my earlier post, and as mentioned, those had 175,000 miles on them. When I saw my splines I made the decision to cut my losses and part the bike out. I didn't want to be on a trip wondering what was going on down there, and when I might be left sitting on the side of the road with a trip ruined. You have to ask yourself if you really want to spend the time and money to "fix" your problem knowing that you'll likely be going down this road again.

You mention the bike was pristine. With low miles there is a market for the parts. I parted out two R1100RTs and an R1150RT. It was a bit of work but quite profitable. With your family situation you might not want to take on the task, but you may find someone who will take it off your hands and get you some of your money back. At this point I think you will be spending more than than it is worth in time and money to try and "fix" this bike.

I'd be glad to share my parting out experience with you if you are interested. Sorry you have found yourself in this situation.


16 Triumph Tiger 800 XRT
13 Yamaha XT250
08 Triumph Daytona


#1004400 - 01/29/18 05:50 PM Re: Clutch Plate Movement on Input Shaft [Re: TedKerr]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 91
Cap Offline
Member
Cap  Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 91
Fort Collins, CO
Thanks for the pics. Now I have a sense of how much movement in your video is correlated with the wear on your clutch hub. I will definitely pull my starter and take a look.

#1004417 - 01/30/18 02:20 AM Re: Clutch Plate Movement on Input Shaft [Re: Cap]  
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,029
Stan Walker Offline
Member
Stan Walker  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,029
I miss Colorado
Now I have a sense of how much movement in your video is correlated with the wear on your clutch hub. I will definitely pull my starter and take a look

See also the following for another set of rotational measurements. And pictures of some original '02 RT splines at 134,687 miles.

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=963567

Stan


Stan Walker
Simi Valley, CA
'02 R1150RT, '15 F800GT, '15 F700GS, '99 F650 (for sale)
#1004418 - 01/30/18 03:16 AM Re: Clutch Plate Movement on Input Shaft [Re: TedKerr]  
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 409
TedKerr Offline
Ride On!
TedKerr  Offline
Ride On!
Member

Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 409
Denver, CO, USA
All, thanks very much for your thoughts on this and for all of your help along the way. It is sincerely appreciated. Even with the advise against it I'm leaning toward putting it back together with an extended hub clutch plate and below are some of my rationale:

This will be a low annual mileage bike. I have multiple bikes (a few more than listed in my sig below) and this one will likely not see more than 5k per year and maybe not even 3k. My rides are almost all on/off road type and a Yamaha Super Tenere is my primary ride. Might sound silly but I bought this bike for somewhat nostalgic reasons. I loved the R1100RT (went to 49 states on that bike) and R1150RT I owned previously and missed having an Oilhead to fiddle with - though I didn't expect this degree of fiddling.

I have extremely limited time on my hands. As mentioned earlier I have twin 3 year olds (started kinda late) and far less free time than in my footloose days. Going down the path of measuring and fixing the misalignment sounds like a project I would enjoy but I simply do not have the bandwidth at the moment.

I need this bike back together and off my lift so I can begin prepping my XR650R for a March Baja trip, and would prefer to roll it off the lift in one piece instead of the current 200!

I'm not terribly concerned about the bike stranding me (at least because of this) because I can quickly check the amount of clutch hub movement on the input shaft by peeking through the starter window. I would be able measure the amount of movement after installation of the new clutch plate and could compare as mileage accumulates.

The input shaft will be well lubed with Honda Moly 60 on reassembly. I know some say the state of lubrication makes little or no difference but I can't imagine that it does not help. And maybe the eroded areas on the input shaft can act as lubricant pockets (now that's really hopeful thinking smile ).

Putting it back together with a new clutch plate would allow me to get the bike back to a (at least short-term) reliable state and allow me to search for a used transmission at my leisure. Good ones are out there but I'd prefer to not have to rush to find one. Extended hub clutch plates are now available for $100 so there's very little sunk cost even if I find a good transmission next month.

I'm a little interested to see how well an extended clutch hub installed on a partly worn input shaft, well lubed with Moly 60 would stand up. I'm happy to be a guinea pig and could probably go in every other year for a look and would document with detailed narrative and pictures.

This is of course just my thinking today, 24 hours after learning the condition of my input shaft. I'm still researching and thinking it all through so this plan may evolve.

Again, many thanks to all who have taken the time to answer my questions and offer advise.

Ted - Denver


Ride On!

Ted Kerr - Denver, CO - USA
'04 R1150RT, '14 Super Tenere, '06 XR650R, '14 KLR 650
#1004430 - 01/30/18 09:52 AM Re: Clutch Plate Movement on Input Shaft [Re: TedKerr]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,066
AndyS Offline
Member
AndyS  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,066
Somerset, Great Britain.
Just a wild suggestion seeing as you are going to button it back up. Is it worth drilling a hole in the housing. If it were drilled in line with the clutch disc (much like the TDC hole on the right hand side), you could just pop a screwdriver though the hole and almost weekly scheck for movement. Then if you want, pop a grommet in the hole.
As I say, it is a guess as I am not sure where (in terms of fore and aft positioning) the hole would have to fall. It would save time taking the Starter motor off.

Page 5 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.012s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 2.8217 MB (Peak: 3.0118 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-10-18 21:23:34 UTC