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Bud

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Having 6 grandchildren in school, I'm grieving for those parents and family members who lost a loved one. A sad, and now too familiar event.

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I'm with you Bud

 

I don't know what the answer is. - But i'm pretty sure that doing nothing won't solve it.

 

There are so many factors at play in each case that there is no single solution. But, i'm pretty sure doing nothing won't solve it

 

It has taken generations for things to deteriorate to this point and it will take a long time to fix it. - But, i'm pretty sure doing nothing won't solve it.

 

There are polarized groups for every position espoused as the problem and the solution, but few want to find the middle - But, i'm pretty sure doing nothing won't solve it.

 

Any complex problem involving human beings can only be addressed through trial and error, at work we call it "Inspect and Adapt" - But, i'm pretty sure doing nothing won't solve it.

 

Doing nothing won't solve it...

Edited by Oldironken
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This is beyond sad, with 3 granddaughters I can not begin to imagine what the families and friends and students are going through. And while I agree that doing nothing may not be an option, where do you start with the something. Do we attack the second amendment, what slippery slope does that create, is it the gun or the person with their finger on the trigger? Do we go after the video game manufactures who make violence a game, do we go after lax parents and how do we define them, , or the fact that teachers can't demand respect and discipline in schools? Do we go after the President and the administration, congress or the senate? Do we declare what mental illness is in this society and then who decides and what privileges do we take away from them, and for how long? Do we ban anything and everything? Do we want more government or less in our lives? We need to blame someone or something for this, so who will it be and what are the solutions? Simple it is not. Is it doing nothing or is it where do we start? Who is accountable?

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The best idea i can come up with is to gather reasonable people from each perspective to start a respectful conversation.

 

I have to believe that there are both short term and long term steps that can begin the process.

 

Identify those willing to work towards a solution and listen to them, identify those who are unwilling to work towards a solution and get them out of the way. There will have to be compromise made by everyone.

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I don't have the answers. But I do know that if we don't do something different, we can expect more of the same.

 

Here is one suggestion: Treating gun violance as a public health issue.

 

I believe that this is a good place to start the negations. Compromise will be required on all sides. Because we are now a tribal nation, the cynical side of me thinks it won't be possible. Hope I'm wrong.

Edited by Bud
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John Ranalletta

One suggestion: More than a few of these killers went public about possessing weapons and displayed unhealthy aggression through posts on YouTube, FB and other social channels.

 

With all of the vaunted AI the socials possess, why is it not possible to screen for these markers, identify the posters (via ip address in many cases if not by name) and alert local LEOs?

 

Also, we have to lose the "snitch" label. Nobody likes a snitch, but everybody wants someone else to identify our grandchild's killer. If we think there's a person in our family, neighborhood, school or work who's a threat, "see something, say something". We're all more likely to be killed by a neighbor than ISIS.

Edited by John Ranalletta
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This tragedy happened only 10 miles from where I live and a lot of parents and kids are freaking out. There were additional threats made by other sick idiots and many kids stayed home today. Even my town has gotten eerily quiet.

There is no single solution but one thing is clear, parents need to be parents again and take charge of their kids, who they see what they do on social media etc... When we came from Europe 35 years age we were amazed that high school kids had gun racks in their trucks

with rifles in them and nobody got shot. What changed is the fabric of our society. It's gone to hell in a hand basket very quickly in the last 15 or so years...

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Setting aside the method used for a moment, there are things that can and are being done. Columbine changed everything. Policies, procedures and infrastructure changed dramatically. Elementary schools can and do have a perimeter fence enclosing the entire campus, that is more for playground security than attack but it helps. Those schools have only two building entrances, main front entrance and bus loop entrance. Once the bell rings all doors can and are electrically locked, including the front door. Any visitor must be buzzed in. All schools can and do have cameras, every hallway, every entrance, parking lot, gym, cafeteria, media center, office, etc. Schools can and do have a vestibule style entrance, lock the interior door and all traffic must route through the office. All schools can be and are monitored by an alarm company, punch in a code, things happen. Middle and High schools can and do have a full time deputy during school hours. High schools are difficult, many out buildings, many entrances. The alarm company, the Fire Department and the staff can know immediately which pull station was pulled and where it is, it can also trigger the camera system to show exactly who pulled it and when. We have trained students and staff to exit the buildings as fast as possible since they were in kindergarten. In our case we must by state law conduct a test every month, two within the first month and report all relevant data as well as evacuation times to the state. No choice. One of our worse nightmares is exactly what happened, easy targets. We may be able to modify that requirement, it will be difficult to get the Fire Marshall on board, I can tell you that firsthand. That is the infrastructure side.

 

On the policy and procedure side are code red drills, code yellow drills, Elvis left the building drills, etc. In addition, every entrance is monitored by personnel while students enter the building in the morning. These personnel are expected to challenge any student or visitor which they do not know belongs in the building. All entrances can and are checked by staff, teachers, custodians, maintenance personnel, etc to be sure they are locked during school hours. All staff, teachers, maintenance personnel can and do have proximity cards to enter the building, the cards can and are programmed for certain doors as well as times, a record of whose card did what is maintained electronically.

 

I could go on but you get the picture, there are plenty of things we can and are doing that have nothing to do with the firearm whatsoever. Yes, these things cost money, not as much as you might think however. There are many ways to fund it, grants, donations, SPLOST money, etc. It will cost more money to legislate and enforce any firearm act than providing every school in America with these things. That was not a poor county without the means to have these things. I expect there to be many questions raised. The most important of which is how did the shooter get in the building? Was policy and procedure followed, whatever that may be? And others.

 

We can focus on what we can do locally to make our children safer, this act could have been carried out with any small arm, it is doubtful any legislation will make a difference.

 

Just some thoughts not focused on the method.

 

Terry

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Terry, just to clarify, your "can and do" statements don't apply to every school in the country. I think they are all good ideas I would like to see them nation wide. In Illinois, our budget shortfalls are so great, the schools don't even get all the money the state owes them for education, let alone to have the resources to implement the hardware side of your points.

 

As a lifelong firearm owner and hunter, I don't agree that there is not a solution to the epidemic of firearm violence in America.

 

 

Edited by Bud
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True Bud, each system is different and y'all sure do have your problems up there. Illinois also spends about 20% more per pupil than the national average and in some cases 30% more than your neighbors. The money is being spent somewhere. Of course my thought exercise cannot be implemented everywhere, nor should it but good luck waiting on any legislature making your kid safe by enacting an arms law. Normal school districts spend far more on athletics than keeping the students safe, that I can assure you. You have a valid point regarding the hardware side, the existing doors surely have locks on them presently, it costs nothing to be sure they are locked. The question remains, how did the gunman get in the school? it may be, and I do not know, he just walked right in. Until that is solved, the method of harm is a mute point.

 

My post was intended to provide some talking points regarding some solutions which can be implemented to provide a safer environment for the school. Those who believe the solution will come at the hands of the legislature are mistakenly wasting their time. Policy, procedure and having each adult on campus take ownership of the school can go a long way in this regard with no monetary costs.

 

Wishing you well with your upcoming surgery, I will certainly miss you at START.

 

Terry

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Signs and laws won't protect or make children "safe".

I don't think it helps any conversation to use loaded, emotional, and biased terms.

We don't call driving under the influence deaths "car violence" so why should be start out with a term like "gun violence" or firearms violence.

It puts us on the wrong track from the outset.

It shirks the true responsibility. It directly implies that the shooter wasn't responsible. He was. For whatever reason he was the cause of it.

I think part of the problem stems from the tendency today to shirk responsibility. It's always someone else's or something else's fault.

There's no personal accountability.

And that lack of personal responsibility has permeated all facets of life.

dc

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Terry,

I respect your thoughts.

That said, with 40 years experience in education, administration, coaching, teaching, guidance, and ownership, public, private, parochial, charter schools.

There is no stopping a determined individual.

Sad, but true. I've seen all the plans, programs, active shooter drills, metal detectors, etc. Has a School Resource Officer literally in my classroom for years

because of the setting.

Skipping the "gun control" aspect whihc is meaningless. Handguns account for 80-90% of shootings and I've seen kindergarten situations where a loaded weapon was brought to school.

Parenting is nonexistent in some settings. Guns, drugs, alcohol, absurdly violent/graphic video games are readily available in some settings.

Some folks are just wired differently. There are bad kids, just like there are bad adults.

 

The lack of coordination/information processing, as in this case, is abhorrent.

People spoke out, did the right thing, more than once. Expulsion is the ultimate act of a school system.

Yet like a restraining order, it is basically a piece of paper.

Any event open to the public can be attended by any member of the public, barring unusual circumstances. Despite Fort Knox defenses, these events allow

the public access to a campus and clever individuals can infiltrate the setting with a variety of bad items.

 

I'm a strong advocate for armed school personnel.

Only if you want the responsibility, are trained, and pass muster.

 

The geography teacher who was murdered after unlocking his room and letting more students in saved lives, and lost his.

In my world, if he had been armed, who knows? Probably a different outcome,

Schools are microcosms of our Society. The staff and students live and work in the real world. The problems of the world

don't stay off campus.

Our Society made drastic direction changes with regard to personal responsibility, nuclear family, social mores, and cultural norms.

Those changes have undermined authority, on and off campus.

 

I'd suggest anyone who want to help to become a mentor.

Get involved with a campus and the students.

It does make a difference. Many have no positive adult role models other than teachers and coaches, and for some the new culture is one of disrespect in a classroom.

Some students are classified through misbehavior as "disabled" and recieve a Social Security benefit. I know of many who intentionally act out to get the $$$.

Suspension and expulsion have become pariahs due to the disproportionate number of minority students affected. Citations rather than arrests are the new norm, even with adults and repeat offenders.

 

Everyone who does research, works in the field of education (particularly high risk students) knows that some folks don't belong around the rest of us.

But, they are "only kids" so don't ruin their life by holding them accountable and protecting the other students and staff. One may likely get sued.

I've been threatened with every kind of mayhem and mischief in clasrooms. I have had students whose parents/grands build and detontate expl;osive devices.

Big ones that you can hear and feel on campus. But they are on private property so nothing to do.

I've been around when we caught them before the act.

Plans diagrams, hit lists, locations for explosives etc.

1st Amendment, 1sty amendment, 1st amendment, freedom of speech and expression, right?

 

My heart grieves when these events occur. People say we changed flying after 9/11 and "fixed" that area of risk.

Right. Weapons are constantly turning up in restricted areas, or make it on to planes.

Or, like the airport shooting, checked baggage properly then retrieved and used in the airport.

 

No stopping a determined individual.

The mental health aspect is another aspect that has changed.

Teenage suicide numbers are sky high yet the Baker Act process is a joke.

Bad actors get the attention and it takes some big issues before intervention begins. In many cases no follow up, no money or transportation.

So, like the ER has become doc in a box for some folks, the Baker Act intake process is the gold standard for some to "do something" about the mental health problems.

 

We can create a new form of prison, for our youth to attend and call it a school campus.

One way in and out, metal detectors, dogs, chemical exposure tests, body scans etc.

The co$t would be prohibitive, the benefit questionable when a bad person makes the choice to harm another in that setting.

Like a prison, where violence, drugs, and illegal activities thrive, those who want to act outsife the "law" will find a way to do so.

So, as mauch as I'd love a solution, there issn't one, has never been one, and never will be one.

 

Good folks don't generally act like this shooter did. Overall crime rates are way down the past couple decades.

Concealed carry permits way up. No saying causation, but it is a contemporaneous happening.

Bad folks will do evil, illegal, immoral, bad things. Until they are caught.

Then they'll do them in prison. Recidivism rates, are pathetic and create another social morass.

 

Wanna save youg folks from dying?

Change the driving license process. Raise the age, tiered licensing coupled with professional training and demonstrated competency.

Moving learner permits from 15 to 17 and driving alone to 18 would save tens of thousands of lives.

So, anyonw who says it is "for the kids" we need to change things, how about we start there?

Best wishes.

 

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Danny caddyshack Noonan

Spot on David! We are becoming a nation of those looking for the easiest option. In other words, lacking constitution and critical thinking.

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Why are we surprised when a horrendous violent act happens when as a society violence is considered entertainment?

 

At 67 years of age I can remember the first time I saw someone supposedly killed on a movie screen. The movie was "The Red Badge of Courage". The victim simply fell over with a red dot in his forehead. As a child I was horrified! Seeing that had a profound effect upon me. I had witnessed someone dying or so my nervous system told me. How many far more graphic deaths are delivered to our TV's and movie screens each and every day to be seen by children of all ages yet the entertainment industry is never called to account. It is always a hue and cry to ban one model or another firearm and to blame the NRA.

 

When we are entertained by violence and allow generation after generation of our youth to become desensitize to it I submit witnessing it first hand at some point in time is what we can expect.

 

It would seem to me that the only logical response in the near term would need to be defensive. If it were even possible to overhaul our entertainment industry it would take generations for that the have an effect.

 

 

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When we are entertained by violence and allow generation after generation of our youth to become desensitize to it I submit witnessing it first hand at some point in time is what we can expect.

 

 

Killing in entertainment has been around as long as entertainment has existed. Even Romeo and Juliet had killing in it and suicide and if you really want some sick violence, read Marquis de Sade's 120 Days of Sodom.

 

The lack of parental guidance and supervision is what I see as the issue. Give your kids more than you had, let them do more than you did, make sure that your kids "keep up" with those more affluent than them,.....these are the paths that many parents have taken and allowed their kids to become misguided/nonguided morons. So, our blames should be squarely on the previous generation/s that have pushed this "give more mentality" to these kids.

 

When I got my drivers license at 15, the first thing I put in the truck that I bought was a gun rack, a rifle and shotgun hung in the rack. I drove that truck to school daily, the doors of the truck weren't locked and I never saw any of those two weapons hop out of the truck and shoot anyone at school. This was the early-80s, not the 50's/60's. The town was a population of about 15k. Going even younger, 8-12, I'd strap the rifle or shotgun to my back and ride through town going to a friends house to shoot snakes in the woods, never got stopped or questioned. No, I was never taught how to shoot or the safety aspects, some things get understood by observation.

 

Scarface is still my favorite movie and I was/am a big fan of the action movies (yes the ones with violence/ultra violence), yet, at no point have I ever thought, considered, contemplated, doing what the "entertainment" showed me just as I never thought to chase a road runner off a cliff.

 

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"I'm a strong advocate for armed school personnel.

Only if you want the responsibility, are trained, and pass muster."

 

 

Yep.

 

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"I'm a strong advocate for armed school personnel.

Only if you want the responsibility, are trained, and pass muster."

 

 

Yep.

 

 

In the end, the most efficient and cost effective solution of them all.

 

Terry

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gather your loved ones close

 

can you see them?

count them

then count them again

 

the world is out there,

its snipers at the ready,

so count one last time just to be sure.

 

gather your children

 

the small ones, new,

still working out how to move their human limbs,

the ones re-arranging the alphabet

to suit their purposes for the first time,

and the bigger ones

who rolled their eyes

and muttered under their breath last friday--

you could scream sometimes

at the obnoxious rituals of self-actualization

but you cannot squeeze them hard enough

in the face of potential harm--

gather them, too.

 

wrap them all in blankets

 

no, not the quilts your mother made

the bulletproof ones.

cloth triangles,

however lovingly pieced,

are not protection enough, now.

nothing will ever be enough;

you are one person

and there are so many bullets.

one person, even with her bulletproof blankets

cannot cover the world.

 

what could? who could possibly say?

they murmur before kneeling to pray,

those anointed ones

in charge of the bulletproof blankets.

 

i would take my mother's needle and thread

from its triangle tasks;

sew shut the praying mouths in power

that their hands might be compelled to work.

it would be so simple, you see.

no work at all:

 

a stiffening of the spine,

a few honest words,

a banal dose of courage,

and the stroke of a pen

 

to weave, like a mother would,

a bulletproof blanket

large enough

to cover all our children,

our loved ones,

every life that deserves to be lived

without ravages of lead.

 

---Erin Guthrie

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Restrict any gun to 3 shots, I don't care what it looks like but if you want an "assault" rifle, join the military or volunteer at your local police department.

Just heard Wayne LaPierre avoided service during Vietnam because he had a "nervous condition". Maybe that's why he wants mental health issues to not be an automatic disqualification for gun ownership.

Edited by Jerry Duke
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If we restrict gun capacity, numbers of guns, who may buy a gun, will then the demented follow the example of those that have used large trucks, passenger air liners, cars, sarin gas in subways to make their mark?

 

For decades now we have known that people exposed to repeated displays of violence via various media are much more prone to practice violence. And we have a constitution that many think gives total reign to any

 

expression of violence. Add to the above a culture that proudly advocates the right of an individual to put his values above the interest of any group including society and even one's own children.

 

It seems to me that we need to examine how we have degenerated into this mess and it needs to start with the stories and myths we tell ourselves.

 

 

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Restrict any gun to 3 shots, I don't care what it looks like but if you want an "assault" rifle, join the military or volunteer at your local police department.

Just heard Wayne LaPierre avoided service during Vietnam because he had a "nervous condition". Maybe that's why he wants mental health issues to not be an automatic disqualification for gun ownership.

 

 

Truly a classic. What a coward!

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Just heard Wayne LaPierre avoided service during Vietnam because he had a "nervous condition". Maybe that's why he wants mental health issues to not be an automatic disqualification for gun ownership.

 

Please only state that which can be backed up by fact and not hearsay/rumor/twitterverse. This is how the rumor-mill gets started and the masses start believing the rumors as "facts" due to the number of "re-tweets/forwards".

 

I don't have an opinion on the guy good or bad, but I certainly don't agree with spreading false/suspected false information on anyone.

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Restrict any gun to 3 shots, I don't care what it looks like but if you want an "assault" rifle, join the military or volunteer at your local police department.

Just heard Wayne LaPierre avoided service during Vietnam because he had a "nervous condition". Maybe that's why he wants mental health issues to not be an automatic disqualification for gun ownership.

 

 

Truly a classic. What a coward!

:beer:

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Any action taken ultimately lies in the hands of our elected officials so by definition very little will be done. Sandy Hook proved that. People are locking themselves in churches during services, armed guards everywhere may be the only viable solution, if nothing else funded by private groups of parents.

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One difference with this shooting, our legislature is in session. They weren't when the Ft Lauderdale airport and Pulse shootings happened.

As a result, mass demonstrations, hearings, bills etc are in play.

 

Now that doesn't lead to an automatic outcome, but, the committee did vote 9-4 in favor of allowing districts to permit staff to have guns.

A long way from a reality, but IMO, a start.

 

They are also moving towards raising the age to purchase any gun to 21, and better vetting for those with mental illness diagnosis.

 

 

Edited by tallman
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We are all looking for someone or something to blame. Have we considered that it might be a person who had a brain that was not well put together, that this person would have figured out how to do harm whether it was a pistol, a knife, or some other method. The conversation nationally went automatically to gun control and has not veered from it. As mentioned before there are societal issues that are being completely ignored, mental illness, an FBI who was notified, a police department who had prior knowledge of the perp, a society that encourages on its TV and movies, violence, video games who make violence look like a game, parents who may not be a factor in their children lives, teachers who are powerless to solve problems but who see them. It clearly was not a gun who killed the children or the amount of bullets ~ it was a person. The real question should be "Why" and then "How in depth do we want to go to resolve the contributing factors? We all would agree that people with either mental illness or criminals will find a way to do harm, putting a Band-Aid on a single restrictive solution and claiming victory is a little shallow.

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Agree Tim, but arming everyone without addressing root causes (i. e. escalating tension and societal fraying due to social media) seems a slippery slope. The breakdown of institutional safeguards ( Air Force reporting, Guards engagement of shooters, follow up of valid public tips, etc) would indicate that if people lack trust in those then they will want to arm themselves. In the short term at least though armed guards seems prudent to me. I can't imagine the pain of those grieving such horrible loss

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a society that encourages on its TV and movies, violence, video games who make violence look like a game,

 

I really don't agree with this. Violence in media has been around since entertainment began. All throughout history, literature and stage performances have violence, some nastily extreme and gross. Reading of the details of a disembowelment is kinda horrific or keelhauling.

 

To bring in our growing up times, have you ever played "army", "cops and robbers", "cowboys and indians", "king arthur",.....all of those "games" involved "killing" either by "shooting" or "stabbing with a sword" or "getting hit with an arrow". I remember back playing these "games" and going so far as whoever got "killed" had to have some sort of fake blood. Put red-dyed Karo syrup in a baggie and poke it,.....nice oozing flow. The "games" have only moved from outside physical activities to inside sedentary activities, nothing different.

 

What lacks, is as you've said concerning the parents not being a factor and the powerless educators. Give teachers the paddle back, give teachers the classroom authority back but ultimately, hold parents accountable for their off-spring.

 

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We are all looking for someone or something to blame. Have we considered that it might be a person who had a brain that was not well put together, that this person would have figured out how to do harm whether it was a pistol, a knife, or some other method. The conversation nationally went automatically to gun control and has not veered from it. As mentioned before there are societal issues that are being completely ignored, mental illness, an FBI who was notified, a police department who had prior knowledge of the perp, a society that encourages on its TV and movies, violence, video games who make violence look like a game, parents who may not be a factor in their children lives, teachers who are powerless to solve problems but who see them. It clearly was not a gun who killed the children or the amount of bullets ~ it was a person. The real question should be "Why" and then "How in depth do we want to go to resolve the contributing factors? We all would agree that people with either mental illness or criminals will find a way to do harm, putting a Band-Aid on a single restrictive solution and claiming victory is a little shallow.

 

Not surprising since that was the weapon used. In our country either a bomb or a gun or guns, with large capacity magazines, can inflict the most damage in the shortest amount of time.

 

 

 

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I saw a Q/A with the Speaker of the House of Reps. He was asked if there's a constitutional right to purchase an AR-15. Of course, he didn't answer directly but said he "believes in the 2nd Amendment", whatever that means. Let's presume he does believe there's a constitutional right to purchase an AR-15. The next question to ask is whether he believes there's a constitutional right to buy a tommy submachine gun. If not, why not.

 

He'll say no to tommy guns, of course, so he believes the "right" is not absolute. In fact, the constitution only says "arms." It wisely does not list or specify types or capacities -- obviously leaving that to future generations to interpret or define. That definition has changed over time and will in the future.

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I saw a Q/A with the Speaker of the House of Reps. He was asked if there's a constitutional right to purchase an AR-15. Of course, he didn't answer directly but said he "believes in the 2nd Amendment", whatever that means. Let's presume he does believe there's a constitutional right to purchase an AR-15. The next question to ask is whether he believes there's a constitutional right to buy a tommy submachine gun. If not, why not.

 

He'll say no to tommy guns, of course, so he believes the "right" is not absolute. In fact, the constitution only says "arms." It wisely does not list or specify types or capacities -- obviously leaving that to future generations to interpret or define. That definition has changed over time and will in the future.

 

But you can buy a tommy gun or even a .50 Machine Gun with the proper license, an exorbitant amount of patience, a massive amount of cash/credit and it's all completely legal, different process but still completely legal (depending on your state).

 

How to Purchase a Machine Gun as an Individual:

 

Confirm that they are lawful to possess in your state

Find a currently registered machine gun made before 1986 either at a gun shop or a private individual. You can search locally or online (but out-of-state online sales of all firearms must go to your local gunshop).

Purchase the machine gun as an individual or through a trust – but, no, you can't take it home yet! Trusts were popular to avoid certain requirements (fingerprints, law enforcement approval, etc.) but ATF changed the rules last year. Previously, your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) approval was required but the ATF changed the rules last year to only require notification. Also, members of a trust could obtain new NFA firearms without fingerprints/photos but now every lawful possessor is required to submit them each time. These rule changes removed much of the reason to get a trust.

Fill out an ATF Form 4 application to transfer an NFA firearm. This application will include a $200 check for your tax, your fingerprints, a passport-style photograph, and information about you and the firearm.

Wait 9-12 months for the ATF to approve and return your paperwork.

Take your machine-gun home and enjoy!

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Actually an airplane can inflict the most damage! My point is that the problem is much larger than a gun control issue. The mitigating circumstances which led up to this horrific act were ignored, the gun was the instrument, the person behind the gun had the issues. How he was raised, what were the signs of mental illness along the way, what were his parents like, we know his father died and then 2 months before the shooting his mother died, and that he was a problem child in school, but little if anything was done with these facts. Blame the someone, not the something, if indeed we need to place blame on only one dimension of the issue. I believe that there are multiple dimensions to this issue.

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"Reading of the details of a disembowelment is kinda horrific or keelhauling. " Yes, they were horrific, but you didn't see the visuals as we do today, same with playing cowboys and Indians, the TV made the shootings look tame by comparison to today's visuals., and if you are old enough to remember, the were in black and white! The stuff we allow to be in our living rooms now that we define as entertainment, is horrific. Most if not all have never seen or experienced this in real life, yet it looks almost normal. The censors will delete sex scenes, which I would venture to suggest we have all had some experience with in life, while arms getting blown off or heads exploding are now considered entertainment. We wonder why we have violence in society as fragile minds see this, have it imprinted in their brains, and perceive it to be of no consequence.

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I played cowboys and Indians and cops and robbers as a kid way back when. That was kill the bad guys -- good vs. evil. Bang you're dead. But never do I recall as a child even a thought about the possibility that someone would walk into my school's open front doors and literally blow my head off with an high-capacity assault weapon for kicks. Today that is what all children should be prepared for.

 

Then again, it may be comforting to a child today that if someday an attacker packing a semiautomatic weapon and large magazines visits their school, the president of the United States might be there to "rush in" unarmed and save the day.

 

Times are different. These days it's jarring to me to see advertisements for VR goggles showing wearers (adults!) assuming a shooting stance with virtual pistol devices -- living in a fantasy world of blowing people away for entertainment. I've not seen them myself but I assume there's lots of spurting blood and cries of agony to enliven the experience.

 

By the way, today there are many erroneous references to the term "a well-regulated militia" in the 2nd Amendment as meaning that the militia was subject to "regulation." The word "regulated" had a different meaning back then. If you read any writings by the founders and others of the day, the term "well-regulated" meant well-equipped. George Washington often wrote to congress for funds so that his troops could be "well-regulated."

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"Reading of the details of a disembowelment is kinda horrific or keelhauling. " Yes, they were horrific, but you didn't see the visuals as we do today, same with playing cowboys and Indians, the TV made the shootings look tame by comparison to today's visuals., and if you are old enough to remember, the were in black and white! The stuff we allow to be in our living rooms now that we define as entertainment, is horrific. Most if not all have never seen or experienced this in real life, yet it looks almost normal. The censors will delete sex scenes, which I would venture to suggest we have all had some experience with in life, while arms getting blown off or heads exploding are now considered entertainment. We wonder why we have violence in society as fragile minds see this, have it imprinted in their brains, and perceive it to be of no consequence.

 

"By today's standards",....by "yesterday's standards" the first time a person was killed in a movie, on tv was a horrendous ordeal, I'm quite sure people gasped at the thought of someone "dying" on screen. Hitchcock used chocolate for the blood in Psycho because it looked more authentic. That was a visual in black and white that one could grasp while not actually seeing the blade enter the body, the mind knew what was happening.

 

I was 15 when I saw Scarface (all time favorite movie), remember "Faces of Death", entertaining although fake presented to be real, how about A Clockwork Orange? The visuals do not cause the action, the lack of direction causes the action........and mental instability.

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DaveTheAffable

I'm surprised no ones talking about the elementary school that got blown up. 45 people killed, 38 of them children. 58 others injured. Crazy guy even put explosives in his truck surrounded by shrapnel. Absolutely horrific.

 

... Huh?

 

School Massacre

 

1927 - Well respected school administrator. 90 Years ago.

- No TV to blame

- No guns to blame

- No immigrants to blame

- No 'Social Media' to blame

- No "They took prayer from school"

 

People do bad things. :(

 

I suggest we "invest" in the people around us, as best we can. :)

 

 

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Dave there is no better way for individuals to make a difference than for them to influence within their own circle; however, think we each want to search beyond that. Each of us has the potential to have a far reaching impact beyond what we think is possible. We're discussing and probing ideas for how to do that.

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. But never do I recall as a child even a thought about the possibility that someone would walk into my school's open front doors and literally blow my head off with an high-capacity assault weapon for kicks. Today that is what all children should be prepared for.

 

I bet you also never thought about the possibility of a few madmen jacking a couple of planes and steering them into a couple of buildings killing 3000 innocents in one swoop. No guns, no high capacity magazines, just a few men with ill intentions to do ill things. Bad people will do bad things with the least amount of restrictions, the sitting ducks, the unprotected/undefended. The ONLY people that follow the signs that state "gun free zones" are the lawful and sane people. Those that are have unlawful intent or have a problem in their brain housing group do not care what sign is in front of the "zone".

 

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. But never do I recall as a child even a thought about the possibility that someone would walk into my school's open front doors and literally blow my head off with an high-capacity assault weapon for kicks. Today that is what all children should be prepared for.

 

I bet you also never thought about the possibility of a few madmen jacking a couple of planes and steering them into a couple of buildings killing 3000 innocents in one swoop. No guns, no high capacity magazines, just a few men with ill intentions to do ill things. Bad people will do bad things with the least amount of restrictions, the sitting ducks, the unprotected/undefended. The ONLY people that follow the signs that state "gun free zones" are the lawful and sane people. Those that are have unlawful intent or have a problem in their brain housing group do not care what sign is in front of the "zone".

 

The "madmen" label seems nebulous. One could say that any murderer (by any means) is a "madman." I'm not seeing an analogy between 9-11 political/religious mass murder by suicidal airplane hijackers and a twisted mass murder by a coward punk kid armed with a semi-automatic assault rifle with high-capacity clips engraved with swastikas -- except that in both instances masses of people were murdered. Apples and oranges. 9-11 M/O is now much tougher to pull off due to revised laws and government policies. Parkland/Columbine/LV/FLA/CT/etc mass murder M/O remains pretty much unimpeded due to inaction.

 

Any "lawful" owner of a semi-auto 30-clip assault rifle can acquire "unlawful intent" in an instant and commit mass murder in a few seconds. Add a bump stock for even greater lethality. A gun with lower-velocity round and a smaller clip simply can't do that. Over the past few decades there's been a political power roller coaster between the guns-on-demand/stand-your-ground/cold-dead-hands folks who insist that an AR is a legitimate home-protection and deer-hunting tool and those who don't view those weapons that way. In the USA, the lawful right to "keep and bear arms" is neither infinite nor God-given; its limits are a societal decision that will always be "under construction" -- a fluid rebalancing -- just like other rights like equal justice under law, free speech, freedom of/from religion, etc. Nothing is permanent, especially laws enacted by congress.

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. But never do I recall as a child even a thought about the possibility that someone would walk into my school's open front doors and literally blow my head off with an high-capacity assault weapon for kicks. Today that is what all children should be prepared for.

 

I bet you also never thought about the possibility of a few madmen jacking a couple of planes and steering them into a couple of buildings killing 3000 innocents in one swoop. No guns, no high capacity magazines, just a few men with ill intentions to do ill things. Bad people will do bad things with the least amount of restrictions, the sitting ducks, the unprotected/undefended. The ONLY people that follow the signs that state "gun free zones" are the lawful and sane people. Those that are have unlawful intent or have a problem in their brain housing group do not care what sign is in front of the "zone".

 

The "madmen" label seems nebulous. One could say that any murderer (by any means) is a "madman." I'm not seeing an analogy between 9-11 political/religious mass murder by suicidal airplane hijackers and a twisted mass murder by a coward punk kid armed with a semi-automatic assault rifle with high-capacity clips engraved with swastikas -- except that in both instances masses of people were murdered. Apples and oranges. 9-11 M/O is now much tougher to pull off due to revised laws and government policies. Parkland/Columbine/LV/FLA/CT/etc mass murder M/O remains pretty much unimpeded due to inaction.

 

Any "lawful" owner of a semi-auto 30-clip assault rifle can acquire "unlawful intent" in an instant and commit mass murder in a few seconds. Add a bump stock for even greater lethality. A gun with lower-velocity round and a smaller clip simply can't do that. Over the past few decades there's been a political power roller coaster between the guns-on-demand/stand-your-ground/cold-dead-hands folks who insist that an AR is a legitimate home-protection and deer-hunting tool and those who don't view those weapons that way. In the USA, the lawful right to "keep and bear arms" is neither infinite nor God-given; its limits are a societal decision that will always be "under construction" -- a fluid rebalancing -- just like other rights like equal justice under law, free speech, freedom of/from religion, etc. Nothing is permanent, especially laws enacted by congress.

 

 

Would you at least use the correct terms when you speak about taking away my Good given rights?

 

 

OBTW, there is no freedom from religion, there is a freedom OF PRACTICE of religion.

 

There Bill of Rights exists to delineate the rights granted by the almighty and protected by government. Not given by government.

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