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Cleaning Injectors


fatbob

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I sent my injectors to RC fuel Injection in CA. Turnaround for the excellent work was one day. First class outfit. I got a report of their testing. They replaced the o-rings and tiny filters too. My 1150RT has not run this good for many years! 50K on the bike. It only cost $60.00 including shipping.

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For my R1100S I can purchase rebuilt injectors for ~$120 for the pair. Cleaning worn injectors seems uneconomical

 

And for about another 100 bucks including shipping from Germany you can buy a matched pair of EV14 injectors for your RS and really get a big smile on your face. Google tills.de

 

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For my R1100S I can purchase rebuilt injectors for ~$120 for the pair. Cleaning worn injectors seems uneconomical

 

What i got for $30.00 each is "re-conditioned" injectors. Sounds much better than twice the price to me. You send yours in and get them back re-conditioned. What do you suppose they do for the "rebuilt" injectors they sell for $60.00 each?

Edited by fatbob
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You can get NEW or reconditioned (with a printed report), OR get your injectors cleaned and flow tested at all flow rates with a printed report. AND if you are really anal about it, they will for an extra fee, video the entire testing of YOUR injectors (if you can't be there to watch in person). They also sell individual components, filter screens, adapters/spacers, O-rings, seals, etc all at very reasonable prices and quick delivery.

 

Keith Gibbons at Injector Rehab ( http://injector-rehab.com/shop/ ) in Blackwood, NJ, is very helpful with a wealth of knowledge and experience on injectors. He also has some crazy stories about powerboat racers. They are apparently about 10 times more persnickety than BMW owners.

 

I put his rehab injectors in my R11S (they looked brand new and work flawlessly) and the R11RT, same result. Then he helped me upgrade the EV6 in my K12RS to EV14's. THAT was a first.

 

 

Lowndes

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I checked with Keith (thanks Lowndes). $191 for 2 new EV14's + install kit... and he has a deal on Yamaha outboard reman injectors which I need too. (Ran like a loaded up two stroke after prolonged idle).

A question to you more experienced oilheaders: Does my '99 R1100R need a fuel controller (AX-fied or?) to best use the new injectors?

 

Currently, the bike runs fine, with just a hint of lean surging around a steady 45mph or so. Not too bothersome.

I was just going to have the OEM injectors cleaned and matched, then Keith brought up the 1200 injectors.

I don't need to waste money on stuff I don't really need.

Thanks/Dave

 

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Dave:

My single spark 1150 surged badly under 3,500 rpm pre-injector cleaning. She runs like a twin-spark 1150 now.

No surging. If your injectors have not been cleaned in 50K or 10 years I would do it.

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dave_a,

 

Injectors and an AF-Xied do totally different things. Injectors "just" squirt fuel into the intake airstream at the pressure and duration that the fuel pump delivers it and the Motronic tells it to squirt, respectively. The AF-Xied modifies the signal from the O2 sensor to the Motronic to induce it to add a little more fuel (longer duration squirt) enrichening the air/fuel ratio at all loads, speeds, throttle settings. (the O2 sensor constantly tells the Motronic "too rich" or "too lean" by sensing the exhaust gas temperature - it's basically a thermometer. The hotter it burns, the leaner it's running. The AF-Xied just tells the Motronic it's burning a little hotter than it actually is thereby getting a little more fuel delivered.)

 

The injectors in my '99 R1100S were EV-6, 4 hole units while the injectors on my '99 R1100RT were EV1, single hole squirters. The difference is that the single hole is a larger diameter hole and a larger stream of fuel (think water pistol), where the 4 hole injector has much smaller holes and delivers a "mist" of fuel (think Windex sprayer) into the intake airstream. Smaller droplets mean much better, more complete combustion and theoretically more power.

 

Not sure what EV your injectors are but with a little digging we could find out.

 

I can honestly tell you this: the AF-Xied was the single BEST performance enhancement I've made to the R11S, and the cheapest. SJ air filter and Induct were good, at more than twice the cost. (It was so good on the R11S that I bought AF-Xied's for both the R1RT and K12RS before I even took delivery of the bikes) All that "cold natured-ness", low speed bucking and stalling, long warm-up, was GONE. The pipes don't blue as badly, either. Roll-on power was vastly improved. Runs cooler, too. It lets the engine run like it's supposed to run.

 

NO affiliation with NightRider except as a thrice Happy Customer.

 

Regards

 

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StillLearnin

I bought new injectors for my '04 from Amazon.UK about 18 months ago. The exchange rate was better then. I paid $115 for the pair, with expedited shipping. I probably got lucky on the matching, they flowed within 1% of each other! Here's the link:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0049PNMO8/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1521079368&sr=1-1&keywords=bosch+0280155788&condition=new

 

I had the old ones cleaned beforehand, and there was 12% difference between them. The new ones really smoothed it out, but it still felt too lean.

 

I then added an LC-2 (AX-fied the hard way). It just makes more power everywhere. It now runs like it was designed to run, before the EPA got involved.

 

Matched flow injectors are the key to smoothness. AX-fied will mask some variance, and still give you more power, and rideability.

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roger 04 rt

StillLearnin, what AFR have you set the LC-2 controller to?

 

Even the newest water-cooled boxers benefit. I just added AF-XIEDs to mine. What a difference!

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dave_a,

 

Injectors and an AF-Xied do totally different things. Injectors "just" squirt fuel into the intake airstream at the pressure and duration that the fuel pump delivers it and the Motronic tells it to squirt, respectively. The AF-Xied modifies the signal from the O2 sensor to the Motronic to induce it to add a little more fuel (longer duration squirt) enrichening the air/fuel ratio at all loads, speeds, throttle settings. (the O2 sensor constantly tells the Motronic "too rich" or "too lean" by sensing the exhaust gas temperature - it's basically a thermometer. The hotter it burns, the leaner it's running. The AF-Xied just tells the Motronic it's burning a little hotter than it actually is thereby getting a little more fuel delivered.)

The injectors in my '99 R1100S were EV-6, 4 hole units while the injectors on my '99 R1100RT were EV1, single hole squirters. The difference is that the single hole is a larger diameter hole and a larger stream of fuel (think water pistol), where the 4 hole injector has much smaller holes and delivers a "mist" of fuel (think Windex sprayer) into the intake airstream. Smaller droplets mean much better, more complete combustion and theoretically more power.

 

Not sure what EV your injectors are but with a little digging we could find out.

 

I can honestly tell you this: the AF-Xied was the single BEST performance enhancement I've made to the R11S, and the cheapest. SJ air filter and Induct were good, at more than twice the cost. (It was so good on the R11S that I bought AF-Xied's for both the R1RT and K12RS before I even took delivery of the bikes) All that "cold natured-ness", low speed bucking and stalling, long warm-up, was GONE. The pipes don't blue as badly, either. Roll-on power was vastly improved. Runs cooler, too. It lets the engine run like it's supposed to run.

 

NO affiliation with NightRider except as a thrice Happy Customer.

 

Regards

 

Morning____

 

We should probably add a correction to the above o2 sensor operation. (narrow band o2 sensor)

 

While it is true that the o2 sensor (lambda sensor) needs to be hot to operate correctly , the o2 sensor has no way of knowing exhaust temperature. Basically the o2 (oxygen) sensor reacts to the amount of remaining oxygen in the exhaust gas not exhaust heat.

 

The o2 sensor does just what it's name implies-- it reacts to the amount of oxygen remaining in the exhaust stream. The more oxygen remaining in the exhaust stream the leaner it is operating as there isn't enough fuel present to allow all the oxygen to burn up in the combustion process. If the fueling is rich it then contains enough fuel to burn almost all the oxygen in the combustion process. (pretty simple process)

 

The o2 sensor (lambda sensor) has a little heated palate or thimble inside it (usually coated with zirconium) that compares the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream to the ambient oxygen outside the exhaust stream (on modern o2 sensors external oxygen actually enters through the wire strands going to the o2 sensor).

 

The oxygen comparison difference produces a voltage on that palate or thimble & THAT generated voltage is what is sent to the Motronic as a DC voltage. The Motronic then uses that DC voltage input to compute injector spray duration (ie, correct fueling mixtures)

 

 

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roger 04 rt

+1 to DR

 

And another important point, exhaust gas does not get hotter as the mixture is leaner. It only gets hotter starting from a rich mixture until it reaches lambda = 1 which is 14.7:1 AFR (for non ethanol gasoline). After that the exhaust temperature drops as the mixture gets further leaner.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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StillLearnin, what AFR have you set the LC-2 controller to?

 

Even the newest water-cooled boxers benefit. I just added AF-XIEDs to mine. What a difference!

 

 

Afternoon Roger

 

Interesting, has Nightrider finally come up with a compatibility fix for the late 1200 water cooled bikes?

 

Per Nightrider--

 

 

"Use of the BMW AFXIED is no longer recommended for 2014 and later liquid cooled R1200. Field updates to the ECM by BMW Dealers during routine service department visits are creating incompatibility between the ECM and the AFXIED".

 

 

The field upgrade was something beyond our control, with no known issues prior to the new ECM load occurring in late 2016. With the field upgrade slowly propagating the change, the situation was not discovered until early 2017. This resulted in our de-certification of the R1200 LC models.

 

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roger 04 rt

Afternoon DR,

 

Thanks for asking that clarifying question. It took a couple of us (mostly a determined rider in GA before I got my RT) months of trial and error to come up with a model of the new "test" that BMW was performing that was leading to the error. Then it was months more for Nightrider to devise a solution. That has now been tested with pre-production adapters on two bikes--a GSAW and my 1200RTW.

 

BMW was clever with the new test they've added. Worst yet, they retrofitted this new test that they devised in 2016 to many older RTWs so when the bikes get upgraded, the formerly working units can kick up errors.

 

The bottom line is that the "fix" works and we're road testing it now. Probably in the next couple weeks Nightrider will launch a first production build of a couple dozen adapter units that can be retrofitted to any existing AF-XIED for further field trials.

 

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Afternoon DR,

 

Thanks for asking that clarifying question. It took a couple of us (mostly a determined rider in GA before I got my RT) months of trial and error to come up with a model of the new "test" that BMW was performing that was leading to the error. Then it was months more for Nightrider to devise a solution. That has now been tested with pre-production adapters on two bikes--a GSAW and my 1200RTW.

 

BMW was clever with the new test they've added. Worst yet, they retrofitted this new test that they devised in 2016 to many older RTWs so when the bikes get upgraded, the formerly working units can kick up errors.

 

The bottom line is that the "fix" works and we're road testing it now. Probably in the next couple weeks Nightrider will launch a first production build of a couple dozen adapter units that can be retrofitted to any existing AF-XIED for further field trials.

 

Afternoon Roger

 

That sounds like it is in in the past again for now.

 

Any idea if BMW has added that test to the BMW 800 bikes?

 

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roger 04 rt

Hi DR,

There have not been any reports that the test has been added to anything other than the R1200 series water-cooled bikes, with the latest software.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Just did my injectors old school ( cheap ). Pulled them out, hooked up a gas line hose that I modified so I could insert the straw that is used on a can of injector cleaner on one end. A couple of jumper wires to a 9v. Battery to open the valve on the injector and sprayed away..checked spray. pattern on a piece of cardboard. Worked great. Bike runs great too.

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StillLearnin

Sorry for the delay Roger, I haven't been on here for a while. I'm running at 14:1 normally, with pure gas. I have a switched relay so I can go back to 14.7:1 on the highway. I have an illusion that it's good for the cat to switch back occasionally.

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So, are you folks not believers in fuel injector cleaner in general, or just in BMWs? I

 

I use Techron in the last tank before every oil change.

Good practice

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So, are you folks not believers in fuel injector cleaner in general, or just in BMWs? I

 

I use Techron in the last tank before every oil change.

Good practice

 

I use it too -- generally right before an oil change since someone told me the the burned up carbon deposits dirty up the oil. Not sure if that's true, but I've had good luck w/ injector cleaner in my cars.

 

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I asked Lowndes' injector guy Keith the same question (http://injector-rehab.com/shop/). His response was that most gasoline already has FI cleaner in it. The use of Techron wouldn't really accomplish much. This of course is from a guy who cleans injectors for a living. So either he's "buttering his own bread" or he knows something we don't.

 

My bike runs fine, I wonder what I might gain with an upgraded 1200 injector so I emailed Keith.

But I have a 4 stroke Yamaha outboard that runs like a loaded up 2 stroke after prolonged idling. Keith said its typical of Yam injectors gone bad and the 2 bottles of Techron I added won't fix the problem.

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roger 04 rt

There's no doubt that that sending your injectors out to be cleaned does the best job. That said, twice in five years I ran Techron Concentrate Plus through my R1150 and both time the idle had edged up 50-75 rpm. So in my book, it worked.

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Point taken on the Techron.

Roger, you know as much about the fueling systems as anyone. If my goal was an increase in roll on response would you consider upgrading to the 4 port injectors? Is there $200 of improvement there?

Thanks

Dave

R1100R

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roger 04 rt

If you have a an O2 sensor, richening the mixture by lambda shift is the way to improve roll-on response, then clean your injectors. There is an argument that newer injector styles atomize the mixture better. However at the end of an adaptation period the AFR is exactly the same as before. I ran an LC-1 on my 1150 for years and it positively loved the 6-8% extra fuel I fed it. Recently I bought an R1200RTW and it's fueling is very good. After running for 1500 miles I installed an af-XIED to test an adapter module that Nightrider is building for the newest 1200Ws. To my surprise lambda shifting made nearly as much improvement to the RTW as to my 1150s.

 

The only challenge you face on the 1100 (other than 1100S) is that you have two wires to splice since Nightrider didn't find OEM connectors for the 1100 series.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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