Alan Sykes Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) Went shopping on it this morning and suddenly whilst pootling along the beach road, I had the dreaded "complete-cutout-dead-engine" effect. Which wobbles you quite alarmingly as the pistons immediately come to rest. Each time thereafter I simply restarted after a coupla presses of the button whilst coasting along; fortunately there was not too much tourist rubbernecker traffic yet, bimbling at 30 kph along the playa looking for somewhere to park, so no drama. But it did it again a coupla times further down the road before I got back home, having several times had the chance to hone my skills at wobble-cancelling. Last week when he did the throttle and injector balancing two-step, mechanic José pointed out that he had a suspicion of a stick coil on its way south, with noticeable corrosion on it. Anybody sourced a good-priced new stick anywhere ? UK & / or EU preferable for me. I know they're an arm-and-a-leg from the Greedy Berlin Pig. AL in sweltering AndalucÃa. 26 degrees at noon today. Edited June 11, 2018 by Alan Sykes Link to comment
dirtrider Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Went shopping on it this morning and suddenly whilst pootling along the beach road, I had the dreaded "complete-cutout-dead-engine" effect. Which wobbles you quite alarmingly as the pistons immediately come to rest. Each time thereafter I simply restarted after a coupla presses of the button whilst coasting along; fortunately there was not too much tourist rubbernecker traffic yet, bimbling at 30 kph along the playa looking for somewhere to park, so no drama. But it did it again a coupla times further down the road before I got back home, having several times had the chance to hone my skills at wobble-cancelling. Last week when he did the throttle and injector balancing two-step, mechanic José pointed out that he had a suspicion of a stick coil on its way south, with noticeable corrosion on it. Anybody sourced a good-priced new stick anywhere ? UK & / or EU preferable for me. I know they're an arm-and-a-leg from the Greedy Berlin Pig. AL in sweltering AndalucÃa. 26 degrees at noon today. Morning Alan I can't help you on where to source a cheap stick coil in your part of the world but do question a single bad stick coil causing a total engine cut out & stop. Unless you were basically just idling along at or just above curb idle then a stick coil problem should only cause an engine miss, or low power, or ragged running but not a complete & sudden stall. I like to go back & re-address the last thing done-- Did it have a sudden & complete stall before the TB service? Does it have a sudden & complete stall after the TB service? Link to comment
roger 04 rt Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 DR's right. My twin-spark would idle with NO stick coils connected. It would also idle (barely) with either injector disconnected. Link to comment
AndyS Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Totally agree. I have had various stick coils fail and none display symptoms like that. Normally it is rough running generally or rough running under load. Link to comment
Alan Sykes Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) Thanks guys; I'll investigate whether a recent jet-wash session has caused the problem. I know the 'book' says never do that, but I stand back so there isn't the close-up high-pressure storm of water & detergent. Just enough to wash away the mud from a trip through a sodden rambla. Thankfully I have the alloy plug-coil-puller thingie to hand instead of the collapsing plastic OEM supplied tool. But - OMG - ¿ have you read the fifteen pages of ADVRider discussions on stick coil problems in twin-spark 1150 bikes ? I just did and my head's in a whirl. Two guys I admire are among the contributors : - celeb0001 who is Esmir in the USA, formerly of clutch-plate spacer fame who has exactly the same Rockster as mine; and Roger04RT who knows more about bike electronics than most. See his hand-drawn circuit diagram in post number eleven of that long discussion. I'm thinking now that if jetwash water doesn't gush out when I remove the plug covers, I'll try one of Motorworks' used sticks at only 45 snoojits to see if that solves the problem of :- a) when ticking over at idle, the motor suddenly stops. When warm or cold, on the Fast Idle or not. b) the complete on-road cut-out effect mentioned in my first post, combined with : c) stuttering hesitation of power delivery under a whacked-open throttle condition. And this is after a full injector / throttle balance / TPS reset barn-dance done by José last week, when on the way home from his place, 35km away, she went like the proverbial bluebird-up-your-nose. Thanks again for your input folks. AL in sunny AndalucÃa. P.S. I notice that Motorworks' new items are sleeved in s.s.; thus "not as prone to corrosion as earlier versions." Hmmmm. P.P.S. No water inside. A puzzlement. Edited June 11, 2018 by Alan Sykes Link to comment
Alan Sykes Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 Interesting comment on the 'other' stick-coil thread on this esteemed forum, from RealShelby :- "I wish I had installed two new stick coils a year sooner than I did ! Fixed some problems I had that I really wouldn't have thought were related to the coils." Might be food for thought for AndyS and DR Link to comment
dirtrider Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Interesting comment on the 'other' stick-coil thread on this esteemed forum, from RealShelby :- "I wish I had installed two new stick coils a year sooner than I did ! Fixed some problems I had that I really wouldn't have thought were related to the coils." Might be food for thought for AndyS and DR Afternoon Alan No food for thought needed, I have seen enough stick coil failures to know what to look for & what not to expect from new stick coils. Link to comment
Alan Sykes Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) Hi again DR; to answer your questions : - Did it have a sudden & complete stall before the TB service? No it didn't. Just a great deal of popping and backfiring on the roll-off, plus hesitation when opening up. Does it have a sudden & complete stall after the TB service? Yes, but only on a whisker of a throttle, like on tickover and when just bimbling. Which is why, after tecnico J's reported suspicion of a dying coil, and my examination this afternoon of the suspect one, seeing minor corrosion along the full length of one side of it, I presumed it was a stick-coil issue. The backfiring issue has been cured by José. And most of the hesitation, but not all. Maybe I'm wrong, as you and AndyS say. Might be worth a 45 snoojit punt though, on a MW 2nd hand coil. My only other 1150 available to borrow a coil from is Motorcycling Mo's 04 GS which by a quirk of fate is not at the moment 10 km away, but instead is spending a month in the UK, after his gruelling 3-day 3,000 km ride north from here, mostly in the unseasonal rain that keeps plaguing us in southern Europe at this time of year. Sufferin' succotash.... Edited June 11, 2018 by Alan Sykes Link to comment
Keith_A Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Hi Guys, Last month while on a ride with my brother (2700 miles), my 2005 R1150RT-P experienced several engine stoppages while cruising at highway speeds (60 - 85 mph). Most of the time the engine quit for less than 2 seconds. However, once the engine quit completely and we stopped on the side of the road. Engine would turn-over normally, but would not start. GS-911 showed no anomalies while stopped. I checked all fuses, all good. After about 30 minutes, the engine started normally. Checked in at a hotel 2 hours later, and removed tuperware to check wiring to sidestand switch wiring, no problems. Note, engine had been running a little rough the previous couple of days and discovered that I indeed had a bad stick coil (right side). The next day I rode 360 miles home. The engine faltered twice, again for less than 2 seconds. I've replaced the bad stick coil. Doesn't seem logical that a stick coil could cause the engine quitting. Gota be something else. Haven't figured it out yet..... Keith Link to comment
dughawk Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Hey Alan, I am not the best Mottorad Mechanic on these here forums, I tend to listen to Dirt Rider and this guy when it comes to the 1150 family of bikes. Chris has a pretty good "How to" for DIYers. I hope this helps.... Doug Link to comment
Keith_A Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) Hey Alan, I am not the best Mottorad Mechanic on these here forums, I tend to listen to Dirt Rider and this guy when it comes to the 1150 family of bikes. Chris has a pretty good "How to" for DIYers. I hope this helps.... Doug Chris Harris does have some pretty good videos, if you don't mind his occasional profanity. Another simpler way to test for a defective stick coil is to remove the connector to the stick coil while the bike is running on it the side or center stand. If the idle gets worse when the stick coil is disconnected, the coil is good. If the idle does not change when the stick coil is disconnected, then the stick coil is probably bad. Keith Edited June 12, 2018 by Keith_A Link to comment
JamesW Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 My '04RT began having problems when it was one year old ('05) of an intermittent nature which I wrongly diagnosed as lean running surging. This went on for the first 10K miles until both stick coils failed in the middle of nowhere Nevada 300 miles from home. We made it back on just the secondary plugs. The thing that really made troubleshooting most difficult was the intermittent nature of the problem. I do concur with D.R. and others that stick coils are not responsible for the original posters problem. Link to comment
Alan Sykes Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 Still somewhat of a divergence of opinion on the problem of the Rockster motor suddenly cutting out. An effect that only appeared last week, shortly after a period of a much improved smoother running for a day or two following a tune-up, then without warning the problem arose. Some say it's nothing to do with the stick coil(s), whilst others, particularly some on the ADVRider forum, say that installing new ones solved the problems of erratic and hiccupping running. I'm no nearer the cause nor solution, except to try a new stick. Watch this space. Link to comment
Alan Sykes Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) Well my friends, far be it for me to disagree with the likes of the esteemed Dirt Rider, who's normally spot-on with anything to do with our bikes, but... IT WAS A DUFF STICK COIL. In today's blinding sunshine, I whizzed over stutteringly to Antas, 30Km to José's vast workshop.... He bluetoothed his Texet laptop with the latest BMW analysis software on it over to the diagnostic plug under the bike seat - the Texet kit is a 5,500 snoojit package - which immediately said :- "Fallo en la bobina izquierda". He stepped over to a nice clean year 05 R1200GS that was awaiting a general annual service, lifted a stick coil from it, and BINGO. All solved. So we learn something every day. Keith's quick test of disconnecting the connection to the bobina didn't work either. But thanks for the suggestion Keith - we tried that first before firing up the laptop. As José says, "With these motors, if there's a case of incorrect fuelling or bad running, it's either the valves that need attention, or incorrect throttle balance and injector matching, or it's a suspect stick coil, or failing those, it's the fuel pump in the tank, Nada mąs." Nothing else. Edited June 12, 2018 by Alan Sykes Link to comment
dirtrider Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Well my friends, far be it for me to disagree with the likes of the esteemed Dirt Rider, who's normally spot-on with anything to do with our bikes, but... IT WAS A DUFF STICK COIL. In today's blinding sunshine, I whizzed over stutteringly to Antas, 30Km to José's vast workshop.... He bluetoothed his Texet laptop with the latest BMW analysis software on it over to the diagnostic plug under the bike seat - the Texet kit is a 5,500 snoojit package - which immediately said :- "Fallo en la bobina izquierda". He stepped over to a nice clean year 05 R1200GS that was awaiting a general annual service, lifted a stick coil from it, and BINGO. All solved. So we learn something every day. Keith's quick test of disconnecting the connection to the bobina didn't work either. But thanks for the suggestion Keith - we tried that first before firing up the laptop. As José says, "With these motors, if there's a case of incorrect fuelling or bad running, it's either the valves that need attention, or incorrect throttle balance and injector matching, or it's a suspect stick coil, or failing those, it's the fuel pump in the tank, Nada mąs." Nothing else. Morning Alan So let's see if I understand this correctly. Your bike ran fine, THEN you took it in to a guy for service, then after the service the bike was stalling while riding. So you take the bike back to the same guy that caused the stalling & he put his laptop on the bike & said, yep, bad stick coil. Replaced the bad stick coil & now bike quit stalling while riding. And this he determined without even riding the bike for verification. (is this accurate so far?) Any thoughts to how his laptop pointed to the EXACT stick coil that failed? Or did he just quickly correct something he did wrong during service then blame the stick coil? Sorry 2+2 isn't adding up to 4 on this one for me. But! As long as you are happy far be it from me to disbelieve. Link to comment
AndyS Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 +1: The left and right stick coils are fired simultaneously [unless I am mistaken]. So, unlike like D.R., I am skeptical! (not of you, but of your mechanic/computer). Link to comment
roger 04 rt Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 There's no way that a computer connected to the motronic can diagnose a stick coil. Link to comment
Keith_A Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) Hi Alan, I generally agree with Jose's statement about rough running R engines - "With these motors, if there's a case of incorrect fuelling or bad running, it's either the valves that need attention, or incorrect throttle balance and injector matching, or it's a suspect stick coil, or failing those, it's the fuel pump in the tank, Nada mÄ…s. Nothing else." Most of the time, a "defective" stick coil causes a rough running engine as described numerous times in this forum and others. The "defective" stick coil could have an internal short or open. Or just maybe a dielectric breakdown that produces a short back to the primary side of the coil that could produce a high voltage spike back into the Motronic Unit. Could a high voltage spike back into the Motronic Unit cause a temporary malfunction of the Motronic Unit which stops the engine? I was trained as an electronics engineer and to be rather logical about things. However, there have been a few times in my career where a working solution was reached which defied the description of the problem. Looking back in retrospect, knowledge is gained. Let us know if you have any more sudden stoppage problems, Best Wishes, Keith Edited June 12, 2018 by Keith_A Link to comment
Alan Sykes Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) Hope this thread hasn't got too boring, but I'm afraid DR has got the wrong end of the "Stick". His first reading of my story is entirely inept. viz.:- "Your bike ran fine, THEN you took it in to a guy for service, then after the service the bike was stalling while riding." No, DR - please don your reading glasses....I SAID the bike was running bad, so I took it to the mechanic. Now comes your next - and this time slanderous - wrong-headed assumption : viz:- "So you take the bike back to the same guy that caused - my underline - the stalling & he put his laptop on the bike & said, yep, bad stick coil. Replaced the bad stick coil & now bike quit stalling while riding. And this he determined without even riding the bike for verification. (is this accurate so far?)" No, it effing-well isn't. ¿ Whose thread were you reading ? ! He took the bike on a 15 minute blast along motorways and side-roads, on the occasion of EACH of my TWO visits to him. I'll take a deep patient breath and repeat the info I first noted : My first visit was prompted by bad running, whereupon he test-rode it and reset the sync with that two-column liquid balance thing after checking the tappets. Without hooking up the analysis electronics but guessing that there might be a stick-coil issue. The bike then ran fine for a few days until it suddenly started cutting-out on-road. So I took it back to him and he re-checked the sync and THEN dug out his expensive latest Texet analysis kit. Next comes your final sly allegation - entirely wrong-headed and unfounded : viz : "Any thoughts to how his laptop pointed to the EXACT stick coil that failed? Or did he just quickly correct something he did wrong during service then blame the stick coil?" Because you'd already decided to impugn a mechanic and situation you have incorrectly read, ( Should have gone to SpecSavers ) that comment is entirely unworthy of you, DR. You might be highly regarded by most forum members for being mostly correct in your assessment of faults in motorcycles, but you are not incapable of getting a story COMPLETELY WRONG. So now in future, as a result of how a simple narration written in a series of forum threads could be so incorrectly read and interpreted, I'll confine any future requests for help and guidance to a fully-trained, experienced, intuitive motorcycle mechanic working in a spacious workshop whose walls are adorned with several different motorcycle manufacturers' training establishment endorsement certificates and equipped with every imaginable special tool, plus the most up-to-date, outrageously expensive computer analysis kit. AL in s.e. Spain Edited June 13, 2018 by Alan Sykes Link to comment
MikeB60 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Put me on the SpecSaver list as well.... Link to comment
dirtrider Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 So now in future, as a result of how a simple narration written in a series of forum threads could be so incorrectly read and interpreted, I'll confine any future requests for help and guidance to a fully-trained, experienced, intuitive motorcycle mechanic working in a spacious workshop whose walls are adorned with several different motorcycle manufacturers' training establishment endorsement certificates and equipped with every imaginable special tool, plus the most up-to-date, outrageously expensive computer analysis kit. Thank you, YES, yes, please do that as you seem to always disagree with any help we try to offer here. Less negativity in the threads here is always appreciated. Good luck in your future BMW ownership as I will not respond to any of your postings again. Link to comment
Matts_12GS Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 What a tool. DR, I think you handled this better than he deserved. Link to comment
AndyS Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) Hi Alan, You seem to have a very acerbic manner on these forums. Your demeanor is most rude and you are very fortunate of the help given you. If people have mis-read your posts, well fine, a correction is in order without the heavy lade sarcasm that you slather over things. This is one of the finest boxer forums i have EVER come across. Now, putting your rudeness to one side, it still doesn't answer how your trusty mechanic's software told us that it was: This is not meant to be sarcastic, it is a genuine question. Has the software available to mechanics changed that can identify a/. a stick coil b/. which stick coil. Edited June 13, 2018 by AndyS Link to comment
roger 04 rt Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Answer to Andy: The Motronic doesn't make any such reports. And to have a prayer of saying so specially Fallo en la bobina izquierda = Failure in the left coil, there would have to be other sensors attached. I lack knowledge of what type of sensor might do that. To a point earlier in the thread it was advised to disconnect each upper coil to see if disconnecting it changed how the engine ran. A more reliable test for a suspected intermittent stick coil is to detach both lower plugs and see how the engine runs on only the stick coils. Link to comment
jelake Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Not to beat a dead topic but DR is spot on if you go back and read the posts describing the details, many were left out until the Sarcastic response that detailed a few of them. As a result, the advice that can be given is only as good as the details that are given in support of the subject. This forum is designed for those of us that prefer to DIY to help assist each other based on our own knowledge bases and problems previously experienced/ solutions gained. Personally, I have flipped through the majority of the 1700 pages on here and although a great many topics do repeat, the wealth of knowledge and how it progresses over time cannot be overstated. Keep up the good work gentlemen. Link to comment
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