NickInSac Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Hi all, We're in Utah just south of Payson. We live in California. Doing 80 mph here in Utah now I have a loud ticking on the right side. It runs fine. I have oil filled on the site glass (I'm sure it's oil). I'm wondering if it's just a loud loose valve or a cam chain tensioner. Basically it sounds like it always has on initial startup when on the side stand. Is it ok to run with the cam chain tensioner so loud? Thanks Nick Link to comment
dirtrider Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Hi all, We're in Utah just south of Payson. We live in California. Doing 80 mph here in Utah now I have a loud ticking on the right side. It runs fine. I have oil filled on the site glass (I'm sure it's oil). I'm wondering if it's just a loud loose valve or a cam chain tensioner. Basically it sounds like it always has on initial startup when on the side stand. Is it ok to run with the cam chain tensioner so loud? Thanks Nick Afternoon Nick Just no way to say anything conclusive UNTIL we know WHAT is making the loud ticking noise. Lots of possibilities on this & some not so favorable to continued riding. Might be a valve adjuster that came loose & backed off, or R/H side chain tensioner problem, or a broken cam chain guide, or a valve issue, or ???? My one suggestion is to get it looked at as soon as possible THEN determine if it is OK to keep riding. Link to comment
NickInSac Posted July 30, 2018 Author Share Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) Thanks DR. How can I determine what it is (cam chain tensioner vs cam guide). The engine is hot right now. I don't think I'll be able to check valves for a while. I'm under the impression it is a cam chain tensioner. If it is, I'm wondering if there is enough tolerance to continue to ride. Thanks Nick Edited July 30, 2018 by NickInSac Link to comment
dirtrider Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Afternoon Nick How can I determine what it is (cam chain tensioner vs cam guide). --You basically have to remove the valve cover then see what you can find. The engine is hot right now. I don't think I'll be able to check valves for a while. --Yes, allow it to cool off for a while before checking. I'm under the impression it is a cam chain tensioner. If it is, I'm wondering if there is enough tolerance to continue to ride. --No way to really know as they WILL run with a bad chain tensioner but the more chain slack allowed the higher the risk of the flopping chain breaking the tip off of a chain guide rail. (trust me you DON'T want to break cam chain guide rail) Link to comment
NickInSac Posted July 30, 2018 Author Share Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) Ok. Thanks DR How do I “see what I can find” with the valve cover off? I'm wondering how I can determine if it's a cam chain tensioner or a cam chain guide? Thank you. Nick Edited July 30, 2018 by NickInSac Link to comment
dirtrider Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Ok. Thanks DR How do I “see what I can find” with the valve cover off? I'm wondering how I can determine if it's a cam chain tensioner or a cam chain guide? Thank you. Nick Evening Nick First check the valve lash on all valves (also look for damaged elephants feet). Then use a strong light to look into the cam chain cavity to look (best you can) at the cam chain guides (look for broken ends). Also look around for anything that doesn't look right or is out place then see if cam gear bolt looks tight. If no loose valves & the chain guides look OK then maybe remove the chain tensioner (on bottom of cylinder in line with lower chain guide) & clean it out, or if possible just buy a new one & replace it. We are just assuming cam chain or valve noise here but other possibilities are piston damage or valve damage or ???? (hopefully it is just a valve adjuster that came loose) The noise isn't a lighter ticking like Throttle Body is it? Link to comment
NickInSac Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 Thank you so much DR. I thought a general overview is what I would do. I just don't understand how to check the valve cam tensioner. Now I do. I will inspect the cam gear bolt for unusual stuff. 😠I hope to do all this tomorrow morning. It's not a lighter ticking like a throttle body. Unless these could be two to three times louder than typical valve train noise. It's as loud as an exhaust leak. However, it doesn't change tone as an exhaust leak would. I would almost say it's a very loud slapping valve. It does act and sound just as it always had on startup for the first two seconds. I always assumed this was the cam chain tensioner until it got oil pressure. It runs ok, but it does have a vibration at all rpms. It still gets 52 - 54 mpg. I'll keep you posted. Thank again for all your help! Nick Link to comment
NickInSac Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 Ok. It's a locking valve nut that is missing on my lower exhaust valve. The bummer is, I presume it is in the pan. I can't see it in the return oil down the cam chain. It's not in the valve cover. I wonder if it will come out with the oil? Or find a nut closer than the dealer in Las Vegas Nevada. I'm in Bryce Canyon Utah. If someone can help. Call or text me. 916-792-8998 Nick Link to comment
NickInSac Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) I guess there is no oil pan... Edited July 31, 2018 by NickInSac Link to comment
Bernie Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Check local auto parts store or hardware. It may not be that special. Link to comment
NickInSac Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 The closest is 40 miles away. But we will look. Thanks. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Ok. It's a locking valve nut that is missing on my lower exhaust valve. The bummer is, I presume it is in the pan. I can't see it in the return oil down the cam chain. It's not in the valve cover. I wonder if it will come out with the oil? Or find a nut closer than the dealer in Las Vegas Nevada. I'm in Bryce Canyon Utah. If someone can help. Call or text me. 916-792-8998 Nick Morning Nick I'm pretty sure that is just a standard M-6x1 nut (probably a little thinner than a standard M-6x1 nut but that shouldn't make any difference. Most auto parts stores should have a M-6x1 nut. Over the years I have seen those nuts fall off & get caught in the darndest places so LOOK CLOSELY around the cam carrier & in all the nooks & crannies. If it got to the oil sump then no problems as it will sit there for ever without causing any problems as it can't get through the oil pump screens. The big worry is IF it I still caught up top somewhere & finds it's way into the cam chain as THAT could cause a big problems. Link to comment
NickInSac Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 Thank you DR! Yes we looked all around and even made one of the longer tools magnetic to probe around the cam chain looking for the nut. We couldn't see it or pick it up with the longer magnetized tool. My GF is off to the parts store (found one 12 miles away) to see if they have the nut. Nick Link to comment
NickInSac Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 Apparently a course thread is a 1 pitch and a fine thread is a .75. Thanks Nick. So far the local Napa, true value and oreilly do NOT have this. Link to comment
NickInSac Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 I have a piece of plastic tube that might work for a while I can put on the bolt of the valve adjuster. I was trying to find a hard piece of plastic and shove it on. Nick Link to comment
dirtrider Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I have a piece of plastic tube that might work for a while I can put on the bolt of the valve adjuster. I was trying to find a hard piece of plastic and shove it on. Nick Afternoon Nick That plastic tube probably won't hold it for long. If you need a 6 x.75 nut then in a pinch you can probably buy a standard 6 x 1 nut & buy a 6 x.75 tap then re-tap it to work. Won't have full thread engagement but probably plenty strong enough to get you to the dealer. Link to comment
NickInSac Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 Thanks DR. I was worried if I strip the thread those thread bits might go through the engine. Link to comment
Tri750 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 At True Value, Ace, you have to look in the small plastic drawers, not the bulk bins. Get creative like look at the Metric Allen head bolts in black oxide, nuts may be there, or the Metric hardened box, metric pal nuts, metric stainless nuts, metric locking nuts, even chrome. Like I say, get creative. The fine thread may be hiding in there. Link to comment
lkraus Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) Maybe Loctite would work temporarily if you can clean ALL the oil off the threads? Allow time for it to set up before starting the engine. Edited July 31, 2018 by lkraus Link to comment
dirtrider Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Maybe Loctite would work temporarily if you can clean ALL the oil off the threads? Allow time for it to set up before starting the engine. Afternoon lkraus Getting ALL the oil off or out of the threads will be a difficult task as the elephants foot & stud won't screw out without removing the rocker arm & bearing. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Thanks DR. I was worried if I strip the thread those thread bits might go through the engine. Afternoon Nick If you fully clean the nut threads before installing the nut then don't overtighten the nut you really shouldn't have any stripping or thread bits. If there is a Japanese motorcycle shop near by then their common thread is 6mm x .75 on some things so you might try there. You might even try some European or Japanese auto dealer parts counters. Even a private repair shop could probably re-tap 6 x 1 or 1/4" x24 nut to 6 x .75 (that is if they have a 6 x .75 tap handy). Link to comment
Dann Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 If it's one of these screws here are the sizes: https://postimg.cc/image/9wga9bht3/ Hope this helps Link to comment
dirtrider Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 If it's one of these screws here are the sizes: https://postimg.cc/image/9wga9bht3/ Hope this helps Evening Dann It is none of those. Link to comment
lkraus Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Maybe Loctite would work temporarily if you can clean ALL the oil off the threads? Allow time for it to set up before starting the engine. Afternoon lkraus Getting ALL the oil off or out of the threads will be a difficult task as the elephants foot & stud won't screw out without removing the rocker arm & bearing. Good point, I was thinking of a different engine with adjusters that had tips smaller than the threads. Link to comment
NickInSac Posted August 1, 2018 Author Share Posted August 1, 2018 Apparently it is a M6 with a very fine thread. I'm guessing a .50 pitch. Unfortunately even the bmw dealer in las Vegas (230) miles away has to order the nut. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Apparently it is a M6 with a very fine thread. I'm guessing a .50 pitch. Unfortunately even the bmw dealer in las Vegas (230) miles away has to order the nut. Morning Nick That could easily be a 0.50 pitch. I can't remember ever actually measuring one so sometimes memory can't be relied on. If it is in fact a 0.50 pitch then your options are more limited as finding an m6x0.50 tap will be about as difficult as finding the nut. Can you find a dealer or Beemer Boneyard that has one in stock & could overnight one to you. Or possibly sweet talk the dealer into robbing one from another bike then replacing that by ordering a new nut? (I believe they are all the same nut back to the 1100 era). If there is enough room between the elephants foot & the bottom of the rocker arm at correct valve adjustment then you might be able to wind a couple of wraps of thin mechanics wire on the exposed threads under the rocker arm, then up & over the arm end, then wind a few wraps around the top part of the adjuster, then twist the wire ends together to tighten the windings on the threads (maybe). You just have to be very sure that whatever you do it can't & won't come loose & end up floating around inside the engine. If that nut was a little thicker you could split one from another valve into 2 nuts with a hacksaw but there isn't that much nut to work with so there wouldn't be many threads left. Link to comment
NickInSac Posted August 2, 2018 Author Share Posted August 2, 2018 (edited) As always, thank You SO MUCH DR! I don't know why I didn't think of the bailing wire before. But, I did use blue Loctite along with brake cleaner to clean the threads. I also used half a rubber grommet on the valve “foot” side and heat-shrink tubing on the threaded side. This has lasted to get us home over 600 miles after an up and down run within Utah about 200 miles, to find this elusive nut that doesn't exist in most places. I kept it under 4K rpms the whole way. Home safe and sound and a “noisy” valve lash, but not the “clacking” I had. I plan to order the nut from my local bmw dealer and fix it right next week. Thanks all! Edited August 2, 2018 by NickInSac Link to comment
Lone_RT_rider Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 As always, thank You SO MUCH DR! Home safe and sound and a “noisy” valve lash, but not the “clacking” I had. Thanks all! And THIS....this is one of the many things I love about this site. Shawn Link to comment
NickInSac Posted August 3, 2018 Author Share Posted August 3, 2018 (edited) Interesting note: I pulled the valve cover now that I've rested a bit. The heat shrink tubing was in the valve cover on the splines. The rubber grommet that I used on the inside of the valve adjuster near the tappet was actually ON the valve stem. What DID work, apparently, is the blue loctite. 😠This valve lash, if anything, is a little tight. Interesting as I still have some clacking going on, but maybe I'm not used to the RTs song as I also ride a Honda CBR. Thanks again to everyone for their help! Nick Edited August 3, 2018 by NickInSac Link to comment
dirtrider Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Interesting note: I pulled the valve cover now that I've rested a bit. The heat shrink tubing was in the valve cover on the splines. The rubber grommet that I used on the inside of the valve adjuster near the tappet was actually ON the valve stem. What DID work, apparently, is the blue loctite. 😠This valve lash, if anything, is a little tight. Interesting as I still have some clacking going on, but maybe I'm not used to the RTs song as I also ride a Honda CBR. Thanks again to everyone for their help! Nick Morning Nick Check all the valves (on that side at least) & if in spec then your noise is either normal or you have some rocker arm side-play that is getting a bit on the high side. If that side is OK then your other side is probably still OK, BUT!-- if you had one nut come loose then what's to say there aren't others that were not tightened correctly at last valve adjustment. On my personal 1200 hexheads I set the exhaust valve clearance using the police spec (slightly wider exhaust lash gap) as I ride fast (fairly high RPM's) for extended periods. That does leave them very slightly louder but very even sounding. Link to comment
lkraus Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 I'm glad you made it home OK. I'd almost suggested a glob of RTV to secure the adjuster to the rocker but feared it might come off like the heat shrink did. The only other option in my tool kit was fast setting JB Weld, but that would not have been fun to remove. Link to comment
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