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#1016351 - 08/07/18 07:43 PM Re: Spline inspection [Re: gottabmw]  
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Stan Walker Offline
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Stan Walker  Offline
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I miss Colorado
To see my take on this and for some actual measurements made both through the starter hole and later after the transmission was pulled complete with pictures, see the following link

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=963567

Stan


Stan Walker
Simi Valley, CA
'02 R1150RT, '15 F800GT, '15 F700GS, '99 F650 (for sale)
#1016360 - 08/07/18 09:12 PM Re: Spline inspection [Re: gottabmw]  
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Alan Sykes Offline
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Alan Sykes  Offline
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Almeria, Spain
Thanks Stan - what incredibly beautiful and clear fotos. Fantastic. You must be a pro-fotografer as well as a bike wrencher.

Esmir's hub-spacer project has come to an end since those enterprising machine-shops in Thailand and subsequently Italy decided to solve the problem of the too-short Sachs friction plate hub, by broaching and selling a deeper hub on a quality friction plate as a one-stop solution.

My genial acquaintance Manfred on the shop-floor in BMW Berlin-Spandau admitted over a few beers a few years ago that the problem was simply inept communication by BMW Motorrad buying office with Sachs in Slowakia by giving them the wrong dimensions for the plate's hub and thus Sachs supplied crates of them that were 5-and-a-half millis too short.

An issue that BMW has never either acknowledged or corrected since, and now of course their current boxer bikes are fitted with an out-sourced Chinese wet clutch following the total re-design of the 1200cc motor back in 2013. Problem gone....

Thanks again for pointing us at your exhaustive link.

AL in s.e. Spain


This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1016363 - 08/07/18 10:03 PM Re: Spline inspection [Re: gottabmw]  
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dirtrider Offline
The Oracle
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Evening Alan

Makes a good story-- but,

Put me in the doubtful column on this one.

So you are saying that BMW sent incorrect specifications to the clutch disk supplier (this is possible), then received the incorrect pre-production (test) clutch disks & didn’t catch the error, then ran the pre-production durability testing, post test teardown, & durability layout evaluation using the incorrect parts.

Then bought cases of incorrect clutch parts & installed them in production motorcycle’s for almost 6 years.

Then kept buying incorrect clutch disks even when dealer warranty reports & warranty parts send back indicated incorrect parts were being installed.

Then bought many many more to use as replacement parts for the last 10+ years.




D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#1016366 - 08/07/18 10:50 PM Re: Spline inspection [Re: gottabmw]  
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Alan Sykes Offline
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Yep, absolutely, DR - that is the correct sequence of events as described by you in such detail above. That is precisely what happened.
The incorrectly-dimensioned hub clutch plates supplied by Sachs were fitted in Berlin year after year. Any subsequent dealer referrals either didn't happen or were ignored.
An executive engineers' team clearly had decided that the incorrect length of the hub was of insignificant importance to adversely affect the performance and durability of the clutch mechanism.
Another example of incompetence was the collapse of the rear suspension back in 2011 affecting all 1200cc RT models, causing a major recall.
It happens, old pal, even in The Fatherland.

Thanks for your swift reply. But tut-tut, I notice an intrusive apostrophe in your phrase "production motorcycles". You were writing a plural, not a possessive. Naughty, naughty......

AL in s.e. Spain

Last edited by Alan Sykes; 08/07/18 10:59 PM. Reason: extra thought

This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1016369 - 08/07/18 11:12 PM Re: Spline inspection [Re: Alan Sykes]  
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dirtrider Offline
The Oracle
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Originally Posted by Alan Sykes
Yep, absolutely, DR - that is the correct sequence of events as described by you in such detail above. That is precisely what happened.
The incorrectly-dimensioned hub clutch plates supplied by Sachs were fitted in Berlin year after year.
An executive engineers' team clearly had decided that the incorrect length of the hub was of insignificant importance to adversely affect the performance and durability of the clutch mechanism.
Another example of incompetence was the collapse of the rear suspension back in 2011 affecting all 1200cc RT models, causing a major recall.
It happens, old pal, even in The Fatherland.

AL in s.e. Spain


Evening Alan

It still doesn't ring right to me.

If it was known early on then WHY didn't BMW simply make a running change & phase the correctly dimensioned parts into production bikes as correct parts became available. They did this on the 1100 clutch, did it on the 1200 final drive & rear pinion bearing, did it on the 1200 drive shaft, did it on the 1200 engine accessory shaft (major & expensive change on this one).

I can sort of see an engineering decision to go with the short parts if they thought it would work but definitely can't see them staying with the short parts once they got field feedback that it wasn't working & they were getting many spline failures. Even for the arrogant German BMW company that simply doesn't hold water in my book.

The short clutch disk (mistake) doesn't then explain why there were many many 1150 bikes that had no failures (if short was bad then why wouldn't all of the 1150's have shown some form of early failure), the short disk hub doesn't explain the angular spline wear seen on the failed units, or explain the lack of re-failures on the 1150 bikes that had the trans to engine aligned properly, or explain why the 1150 bikes that I have personally found with failed splines (& measured for alignment) showed a basic misalignment problem.

Like I said above, good story, but to me it is just that-- a story without merit.




D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#1016387 - 08/08/18 04:15 AM Re: Spline inspection [Re: gottabmw]  
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Paul101 Offline
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When my 2002 R1150RS had 117kkm, I was seeing what appeared to me about 1/4 inch of clutch disk movement when checking thru the starter opening. This was 5 years ago. This prompted me to take her apart for a spline inspection. I found the clutch disk approximated 50% worn, with angular wear. The input shaft was also worn. Its hard to estimate, but I would guess perhaps 15%. It also showed the angular wear. I decided to a new disk, clutch plate, pressure plate and spring were required. The pressure plate has three bars or straps which mount it to the clutch housing with bolts through the housing cover. In other words these bars are sandwiched between the clutch housing and the housing cover. I measured the clutch housing to ensure it had no run out was not warped. It wasn't. I also noticed that it did not have any indentations for the pressure plate bars either. This didn't seem right. If there is no space for the bars, something has to give and warp when its all bolted together right? So I decided to file some groves in the clutch cover so the assembly would bolt together flat. At the end of last years riding season, I checked the disk movement through the starter opening again. I marked some masking tape in 1/16 and 1/8 inch increments. (approximately) I taped it to the housing cover and took a video with my cell phone. The movement is perhaps a little more than 1/16, but less than 1/8 inch. In any case the bike now had over 202kkm on it. That 85kkm on the new clutch disk, plate and housing cover. I decided to open it up for inspection and lube. Much to my surprise, I found the new clutch plate had negligible wear. The transmission input shaft looked essentially the same as did 5 years ago. So the question is, how come the original clutch disk splines were worn 50% after 117,000km, yet the replacement disk shows almost no wear at 85,000km? Good lube? If anyone is interested, I will try to find the before are after photos and see if I can attach them.

#1016390 - 08/08/18 08:41 AM Re: Spline inspection [Re: Alan Sykes]  
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AndyS Offline
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Originally Posted by Alan Sykes
....
My genial acquaintance Manfred on the shop-floor in BMW Berlin-Spandau admitted over a few beers a few years ago that the problem was simply inept communication by BMW Motorrad buying office with Sachs in Slowakia by giving them the wrong dimensions for the plate's hub and thus Sachs supplied crates of them that were 5-and-a-half millis too short.

An issue that BMW has never either acknowledged or corrected since, and now of course their current boxer bikes are fitted with an out-sourced Chinese wet clutch following the total re-design of the 1200cc motor back in 2013. Problem gone....



Wait, do you know the date you had this conversation with your genial acquaintance? It must have been April the 1st.
You can't really believe that story can you?
That could be true for possible one batch, but not for continued production over various model updates.

#1016393 - 08/08/18 09:20 AM Re: Spline inspection [Re: gottabmw]  
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Alan Sykes Offline
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Almeria, Spain
Well, AndyS, I DID believe Manfred's explanation at the time, despite the slight fog of remembrance and the few jars of Berliner Kindl Weisse that we indulged in that evening long ago.

But what an interesting discussion this turns out to be. The issue of angular misalignment between plate and shaft causing premature spline wear has all been exhaustively discussed on some of our 'sister' forums :- ADV Rider, Pelikan Parts and UKGSer. Some of the explanations gone into, come from some extremely knowledgeable and experienced boxer bike riders and wrenchers.

And Paul's story above is a true "How Come ?" I can offer no comment on why his experience came about.

And so, may I point out that my first impulse is not to doubt the veracity of any proposal or explanation vouched by a fellow poster - unlike what seems to be the case here....


This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1016394 - 08/08/18 10:08 AM Re: Spline inspection [Re: gottabmw]  
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AndyS Offline
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Well, we differ then. Because, I struggle to believe that a company such as BMW has too much to lose by just blundering along with the 'incorrect' part for years on end.
As a design engineer, when there is a chance to improve something, it will be done at the first oppertunity with an R2, R3 revision as required. Just as BMW do with each model year we sometimes see tiny changes (such as the Wethead coolant drain hole moving. It was no fanfare, but it happened none the less. Let's face it, a clutch issue is somewhat more important than a piddly little drain hole).

#1016405 - 08/08/18 12:48 PM Re: Spline inspection [Re: Paul101]  
Joined: Jun 2010
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dirtrider Offline
The Oracle
dirtrider  Offline
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Originally Posted by Paul101
When my 2002 R1150RS had 117kkm, I was seeing what appeared to me about 1/4 inch of clutch disk movement when checking thru the starter opening. This was 5 years ago. This prompted me to take her apart for a spline inspection. I found the clutch disk approximated 50% worn, with angular wear. The input shaft was also worn. Its hard to estimate, but I would guess perhaps 15%. It also showed the angular wear. I decided to a new disk, clutch plate, pressure plate and spring were required. The pressure plate has three bars or straps which mount it to the clutch housing with bolts through the housing cover. In other words these bars are sandwiched between the clutch housing and the housing cover. I measured the clutch housing to ensure it had no run out was not warped. It wasn't. I also noticed that it did not have any indentations for the pressure plate bars either. This didn't seem right. If there is no space for the bars, something has to give and warp when its all bolted together right? So I decided to file some groves in the clutch cover so the assembly would bolt together flat. At the end of last years riding season, I checked the disk movement through the starter opening again. I marked some masking tape in 1/16 and 1/8 inch increments. (approximately) I taped it to the housing cover and took a video with my cell phone. The movement is perhaps a little more than 1/16, but less than 1/8 inch. In any case the bike now had over 202kkm on it. That 85kkm on the new clutch disk, plate and housing cover. I decided to open it up for inspection and lube. Much to my surprise, I found the new clutch plate had negligible wear. The transmission input shaft looked essentially the same as did 5 years ago. So the question is, how come the original clutch disk splines were worn 50% after 117,000km, yet the replacement disk shows almost no wear at 85,000km? Good lube? If anyone is interested, I will try to find the before are after photos and see if I can attach them.


Morning Paul

I guess I don't really understand what you did as the 1150 clutch housing should already have depressions for the pressure plate straps to ride in.

It sort of sounds like either someone had machined your clutch housing porches flat or someone was trying to mix in an 1100 clutch housing (not even sure that is possible).

In any case at 117,000 km on first spline wear (not even a failure) your bike sure isn't one of the spline failure prone 1150 bikes.

[Linked Image]


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
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