Pinging re-visited, ( it's not a town in China )

03 1150rt 103,000 miles.

Hi all. My old nemesis , pinging and surge have returned.

Thought I wouldn't be re-acquainted with them after I installed the Af-xied unit on my bike last year. Worked like a charm. Milage dropped from 42 to 38 but power was up, pinging gone, surge no where to be found, till recently. Noticed the surge first, then pinging at hi power settings then fuel milage returned to pre install values. Changed the O2 sensor, air filter. Running injector cleaner in fuel. Contacted the manufacturer. The rep there told me it's probably not a failure of their unit as the light indications on the AFR gauge show normal. Suggested new spark plugs, injector cleaner and O2 sensor ( which I had just changed ).

Questions.

Would bad spark plugs have any impact on my fuel mileage increasing ? Is there a specific plug that would be worth trying ? The bike runs strong but at full throttle I have to back off around 90 because of pinging, With the bike running strong I'm kind of leaning away from a fuel pump issue.

Dirty injectors ? But wouldn't that make my fuel mileage worse, not better ?

Carbon build up ? But again, the fuel mileage issue ?

What could account for that ? Any thoughts appreciated.

Joe,

If it were me I'd make a return fuel flow volume test. The one time my 04 RT pinged was just before an in tank hose failed. You should get 2 liters per minute. For your symptoms return volume is more diagnostic than fuel pressure.

If that passed I'd inspect for carbon.

03 1150rt 103,000 miles.

Hi all. My old nemesis , pinging and surge have returned.

Thought I wouldn't be re-acquainted with them after I installed the Af-xied unit on my bike last year. Worked like a charm. Milage dropped from 42 to 38 but power was up, pinging gone, surge no where to be found, till recently. Noticed the surge first, then pinging at hi power settings then fuel milage returned to pre install values. Changed the O2 sensor, air filter. Running injector cleaner in fuel. Contacted the manufacturer. The rep there told me it's probably not a failure of their unit as the light indications on the AFR gauge show normal. Suggested new spark plugs, injector cleaner and O2 sensor ( which I had just changed ).

Questions.

Would bad spark plugs have any impact on my fuel mileage increasing ? Is there a specific plug that would be worth trying ? The bike runs strong but at full throttle I have to back off around 90 because of pinging, With the bike running strong I'm kind of leaning away from a fuel pump issue.

Dirty injectors ? But wouldn't that make my fuel mileage worse, not better ?

Carbon build up ? But again, the fuel mileage issue ?

What could account for that ? Any thoughts appreciated.

Morning joeb

This is going to be a difficult nut to crack over the internet for a number of reasons but the 90mph ping adds a different angle.

At first read it does sort of point to the pre Af-xied install problems that you had. So my first (logical) suggestion is to get Roger involved to see if he can help you verify that the Af-xied is doing what it is supposed to do.

Is your 03 a single spark or a dual spark engine (I can't remember)?

If a dual spark have the upper coils been converted to have their own power relay? If not that probably should be done.

You didn't solder the wire connections when you installed the new o2 sensor did you???????

Lets assume for the remainder of this post that your Af-xied is working correctly.

Due to the many possibilities on fuel mileage increase/decrease (especially when looking for problems) as many change the way that the throttle is used when looking for problems I would say that other than an Af-xied influenced fuel mileage change I wouldn't read too much into a fuel mileage change as far as finding the problem.

Personally I think that you should try to find the problem as the problem presents itself then see where you fuel mileage goes after you repair the ping & surging & your riding goes back to normal.

I'm not sure about telling you what to check or in what order but if I were looking for your problem I would--

Talk to Roger on verifying the Af-xied operation.

_Disconnect the Af-xied to see if it runs worse, or different, or that you can actually tell that the Af-xied was doing something.

_Run a good fuel return flow test just to verify that you have enough fuel flow at enough pressure (this needs to be eliminated right off the bat)

_Put a timing light on the engine & verify that your max-advance ignition timing is close to where it needs to be.

_Put a voltmeter on the fuel injector 12v input wires & verify the injectors are working at full power (low injector voltage can really decrease the injector spray)

_Put a voltmeter on the lower plug coil to verify that it is getting good system voltage.

_Put a voltmeter on the upper coil power wires to verify full voltage to the upper coils.

_ Possibly run an exhaust backpressure test (or ride it with the muffler/cat removed).

_Do a good warm engine compression test. (see if it is very high to indicate heavy carbon inside the combustion chamber)

_Possibly remove the front exhaust header pipes then look into the exhaust ports to see if the exhaust valves are all coked up solid on the back side of the valve head.

_Possibly remove the throttle bodies then look into the intake ports to see if the intake valves are all coked up solid on the back side of the valve head.

_Verify that oil temp sensor is working properly by tracking a full cold to hot resistance sweep.

_Verify that TPS is sweeping smoothly on both high & low outputs.

Added: At 103,000 miles you might think about gutting the cat converter as at 103,000 miles I seriously doubt it is doing much (emission control wise anyhow). I can't remember ever seeing a BMW 1150 cat totally plugged but have a seen a few that were pretty coked up from years of oil burning.

Looks like I have my work cut out for me. The 03 is single spark. Would an auto mechanic be able to run a back pressure test ? If so, would he be able to know what the proper numbers would be ? Is it a standard resistance ? When I first got the bike it blew out a lot of acorns from exhaust. Always wondered if something might be impeding flow.

Looks like I have my work cut out for me. The 03 is single spark. Would an auto mechanic be able to run a back pressure test ? If so, would he be able to know what the proper numbers would be ? Is it a standard resistance ? When I first got the bike it blew out a lot of acorns from exhaust. Always wondered if something might be impeding flow.

Seriously?

If so, then why not take the system off and see if there is indeed anything else stuffed in there (like a family of squirrels)!

That was years ago and bike has been running well since then. Without dropping the exhaust it appeared to be all clear.Only had a slight pinging at hi speeds on hot days . Seemed to be a common problem with the 1150 so didn't really think exhaust was plugged. I think a plugged cat may be a more likely scenario. Although dropping the exhaust is probably a smart move.

Make the return fuel test first.

Sounds like a plan. Thanks. Will let know what results are.

Looks like I have my work cut out for me. The 03 is single spark. Would an auto mechanic be able to run a back pressure test ? If so, would he be able to know what the proper numbers would be ? Is it a standard resistance ? When I first got the bike it blew out a lot of acorns from exhaust. Always wondered if something might be impeding flow.

Afternoon joeb

Yes, just about any auto mechanic that is worth anything should be able to run an exhaust back pressure test-- BUT, to do it correctly, the bike should be ridden so you probably need a mechanic that rides & can chew gum at the same time.

I haven't ever seen an excess backpressure number given for the BMW motorcycles but I usually use 80 inches of H2o (just under 3 psi) as the very max that I will accept & even then I would like it significantly lower than that. Some try to run the test with a PSI pressure gauge but the resolution on a standard PSI gauge is pretty poor in the <3 psi range so I like to use an inches of H2o gauge.

I usually remove the o2 sensor then take the exhaust pressure tap at the o2 sensor bung.

You might simulate a backpressure test by seeing if your bike will easily ride out to 125+ mph (not drag trying to get the last 5 mph or so). If it won't smartly ride out to 125+ mph then try removing the muffler & cat the see if it will do it then. If there is a notable difference between cat-on & cat-off then you probably have something to deal with. (if you try this just find a safe place to do it)

As usual, it seems it's never as easy as hooking a hose with a gauge to the exhaust. Mechanic that can chew gum and ride ?

In keeping with the BMW theme of " let's make this complicated " I'm forced to ask, does it matter what type of gum ?

Seriously, as far as speed test goes, I am reluctant to drive near the 100+ range because of the pinging. Bike feels like it would get there but I'm afraid of doing engine damage.

May try without pipes but wonder if I'll be able to hear engine blow itself to bits over exhaust noise.

As usual, it seems it's never as easy as hooking a hose with a gauge to the exhaust. Mechanic that can chew gum and ride ?

In keeping with the BMW theme of " let's make this complicated " I'm forced to ask, does it matter what type of gum ?

Seriously, as far as speed test goes, I am reluctant to drive near the 100+ range because of the pinging. Bike feels like it would get there but I'm afraid of doing engine damage.

May try without pipes but wonder if I'll be able to hear engine blow itself to bits over exhaust noise.

Afternoon joeb

Something that I should have asked in the first post-- What are you running for spark plugs? Any chance that you are running a heat range or more too hot on the spark plug.

Not sure what is in there now, but possible I just picked some plug from the list of alternate plugs from this forum. They probably need changing anyway. Any suggestions for a proper heat range plug ?

Not sure what is in there now, but possible I just picked some plug from the list of alternate plugs from this forum. They probably need changing anyway. Any suggestions for a proper heat range plug ?

Afternoon joeb

There are a number of spark plugs that WILL work in the BMW 1150 including the cheap Autolite 3922.

With your ping & present problem my recommendation is to look in your riders manual & install the EXACT spark plugs recommended there as this way you can positively rule out the spark plugs as the root of your issue.

Before doing much else you REALLY should run that fuel return flow test first as that might prove to be out of spec & THAT could be the root of all your problems.

You are probably going to have to run it at some point anyhow so might as well do it first & have that done & over with.

Sounds about right. Will tun the fuel return test next. Thanks. Will see if I can get around to it tomorrow, and let you know results.

By way of intro - several years ago I picked up my younger brother's 2002 R1150R with about 24k miles, leaking oil. It needed some care. And it has received quite a bit. From this and other boards, I've tried to address the known issues. It starts and runs, but despite all that I've done, it surges. Single spark. I can feel the hesitation easily when riding at slow speeds, and now that I'm sensitized, I think it's there even at highway speeds.

What I have not done is a fuel return test. Would you be kind enough to spell out the exact steps do be done?

In southeastern PA, around the Philadelphia area, there's no way I'm going to do the 100 mph test!

Valves adjusted very carefully. Spark plug changed. Then changed the standard plugs to the Autolite plugs. New coil and spark plug wires. New HES. Static timing. HES rotated to advance timing. New O2 sensor. AF-Xied does not seem to help. New right throttle body. Left throttle body sent to Bing for rebuild. Checked TPS with ohmmeter - seems to advance evenly with throttle twist. Very careful balancing with Carbtune. Good equalization at idle and at 3000 rpm. Compresion checked and reasonable. Both injectors cleaned by Marren. Changed fuel filter and the U-tube. Both throttle bodies adjusted so that they open at the same time.

Oh - and the clutch was replaced at Hermy's and the input shaft splines are fine. Clutch slave cylinder replaced too. And numerous other upgrades or replacements - touring windshield, BMW panniers, and so on. I thought I'd try to do it right. But it just doesn't run smoothly, except at speed on the highway.

So, I'm wondering if all this was a waste of time and money. Will ride it up to Hermy's mid September and ask them to look at it again. I just can't believe that the 02 R1150R was like this then - nobody would have bought one...

Again, I haven't done a fuel return test, and would like to do it right, if you could spell out the exact steps for me to follow.

By way of intro - several years ago I picked up my younger brother's 2002 R1150R with about 24k miles, leaking oil. It needed some care. And it has received quite a bit. From this and other boards, I've tried to address the known issues. It starts and runs, but despite all that I've done, it surges. Single spark. I can feel the hesitation easily when riding at slow speeds, and now that I'm sensitized, I think it's there even at highway speeds.

 

What I have not done is a fuel return test. Would you be kind enough to spell out the exact steps do be done?

 

In southeastern PA, around the Philadelphia area, there's no way I'm going to do the 100 mph test!

 

 

Valves adjusted very carefully. Spark plug changed. Then changed the standard plugs to the Autolite plugs. New coil and spark plug wires. New HES. Static timing. HES rotated to advance timing. New O2 sensor. AF-Xied does not seem to help. New right throttle body. Left throttle body sent to Bing for rebuild. Checked TPS with ohmmeter - seems to advance evenly with throttle twist. Very careful balancing with Carbtune. Good equalization at idle and at 3000 rpm. Compresion checked and reasonable. Both injectors cleaned by Marren. Changed fuel filter and the U-tube. Both throttle bodies adjusted so that they open at the same time.

 

Oh - and the clutch was replaced at Hermy's and the input shaft splines are fine. Clutch slave cylinder replaced too. And numerous other upgrades or replacements - touring windshield, BMW panniers, and so on. I thought I'd try to do it right. But it just doesn't run smoothly, except at speed on the highway.

 

So, I'm wondering if all this was a waste of time and money. Will ride it up to Hermy's mid September and ask them to look at it again. I just can't believe that the 02 R1150R was like this then - nobody would have bought one...

 

 

Again, I haven't done a fuel return test, and would like to do it right, if you could spell out the exact steps for me to follow.

 

Evening Milanator

Welcome to the site.

We will be more than happy to help you but you posted YOUR problem in someone else's on-going thread ( we call that hijacking)

It becomes a problem as we end up with different problems from different people on different bikes in the same thread so the thread loses continuity & eventually does neither the OP or the hijacker any good.

Please post your request in your own thread about your bike then you will get the answer that you are seeking.

I appreciate the guidance Will do.