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Stripped splines, '03 R1150RT


AnotherLee

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Riding along a country road, giving it a little throttle to go up a small hill and heard a screeching, grinding sound and lost all power to the rear wheel. I think we all can guess what the trouble was/is.

History: new clutch at 41,782 mi due to a screeching sound when accelerating uphill. Splines were OK at that time.

Now with 128,185 mi. so 86,403 mi on the replacement.

Clutch pic here. Input shaft pic in next post.

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Input shaft looks to me like most damage is close to the trans. Does this mean anything? I'm trying to determine if the failure is due to misalignment.

7002.jpg.9c7ee82aad04f63a821274c7a42eead8.jpg

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Input shaft looks to me like most damage is close to the trans. Does this mean anything? I'm trying to determine if the failure is due to misalignment.

 

 

Evening TheOtherLee

 

Most likely a mis-alignment problem but with the mileage that you got between failures probably not as severe as some.

 

The only way to know for sure is to remove the trans front cover then bolt it to the engine & run a bearing bore sweep with a dial indicator mounted to the crankshaft.

 

At your current mileage you might also have some rear main bearing wear figuring into the failure so probably wouldn't hurt to check for crankshaft to rear main bearing lateral movement. (a loose rear main would also effect the trans alignment to trans housing runout so check for rear main wear before doing any alignment check)

 

 

 

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that looks like a pretty typical failure, although the mileage is a little surprising. I would buy a used tranny on ebay and a clutch disk with a longer hub. Button it back up and put another 100K on it.

 

Out of curiosity, what was your problem at 40K?

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Dirtrider wrote:

At your current mileage you might also have some rear main bearing wear figuring into the failure so probably wouldn't hurt to check for crankshaft to rear main bearing lateral movement. (a loose rear main would also effect the trans alignment to trans housing runout so check for rear main wear before doing any alignment check)

I'm very interested in checking this. I've removed the clutch and I'm down to what's pictured below. What more do I have to do to free up the crankshaft?

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Morning Lee

 

You really don't need to free up the crankshaft, in fact if you can't pry in the exact center of the rear of crankshaft then you will have to find a way to keep it from turning or rotating.

 

The true way of measuring crankshaft to rear main bearing clearance is to remove the crankshaft. Then measure the rear bearing journal for size in 6 or 8 different clocking's.

 

Then bolt the block back together on the clean rear main bearing & use an inside mike to measure it for size in all vertical & lateral directions. (ie measure for ID size & measure for being egg shaped)

 

You really don't want to do it per the above as that requires engine disassembly & LOT of work.

 

So you can get some idea of the crankshaft wear & bearing wear by carefully moving the rear of crankshaft back & forth laterally in line with the piston movement (most of the BMW boxer rear bearing wear is in line with the piston movement (across the engine not up & down).

 

To do it with the crankshaft still in place & assembled the first thing you need is for the engine to sit for few days (or longer) so the oil runs out of the rear bearing area (a heavy slug of thick 20w50 motor oil in the rear bearing can make even a loose bearing feel somewhat OK)

 

Then the crankshaft needs to be turned so the pistons are at TDC (it doesn't matter what stroke it is on) as this is probably the max wear position (or close anyhow) .

 

There are probably many home-brew ways of checking the crankshaft to bearing movement but the two that I used to use was—

 

_ A plate with a hole in the center that bolts on the rear of crankshaft with a piece of pipe welded to the exact center of that plate (pipe was about 2.5 feet long, give or take). To use this I just bolt it on to the crankshaft then give the pipe end a good smooth but firm tug in the lateral direction. A loose rear bearing to crankshaft will usually give a solid thunk-thunk as the pipe is pulled & pushed on. (if there is thick oil in the rear bearing then you won't get or hear a solid thunk)

 

I usually check right at TDC then re-check with the pistons down the bore about an inch or so in both directions (this is usually where the bearing & crankshaft shows the most wear)

 

The other way that I have used (is more precise but set up takes longer & is more involved)-

 

Is to machine up a button that fits snugly in the center of the rear of crankshaft. This button fits the crankshaft center & is a close fit to a very long drift punch that I have.

 

Next I bolt a long bar across the rear of the engine block (there are 2 holes that are close to being across from each other (not exactly but close enough) using thick wall standoffs so that the bar is rearward of the crankshaft by about 2” but the bar is very solidly bolted to the engine block.

 

I can then stick my long drift in through the center hole in that bar into the button in the center of the crankshaft then pry the rear of crankshaft back & forth.

 

I then mount a dial indicator outboard (NOT to that bar and not to the block near where the bar bolts. Then I hot glue a long stinger wire (welding rod actually) from the dial indicator to the side of the rear of crankshaft (about center height just outboard of the seal).

 

When the rear of crankshaft is pried laterally using the drift it gives a direct dial indicator readout in thousandths.

 

Using this method I also check right at TDC then re-check with the pistons down the bore about an inch or so in both directions (this is usually where the bearing & crankshaft shows the most wear).

 

Removing the rear oil seal makes the above tests a bit easier & a bit more precise but they can be done with the rear seal still in place.

 

For your intent-- just seeing if the crankshaft will move laterally (how far really) with the pistons at or near TDC then an inch or so down the bore should tell you what you need to know.

 

If it feels somewhat tight with little movement then you probably don't have a lot of rear bearing/crankshaft wear.

 

If you get a definite movement with a thunk then you probably should look into it farther for actual movement.

 

The other thing to keep in mind is at your higher mileage what would you do about the movement even if it is excessive. Overhauling the engine on a higher mile older bike is probably cost prohibitive & very involved. If you have a worn crankshaft (probably is if you have excess movement) then VERY expensive to repair.

 

It doesn't look to be leaking oil so it can still be ridden as is so maybe a new trans input shaft, or a good used trans, then a new clutch disk. Then remove the starter & check for spline wear every 25,000 miles or so.

 

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Classic problem!

One reason I will never touch another 02-04 R1150Rt, Although a beautiful bike and a friend's lasted 217k without major problems, it's not worth it anymore.

I got a great motor with 88k. I tore bike down for parts and I can't even get $200 for it. It had only abs problems/failures to make it a parts bike.

My conclusion, if it is a failing bike like this, it will continue forever. I replaced spline failed clutches and transmission only never got them to last like they should for 50-70k more at least.

I sold a 2006 R1200Rt for $2,900 last month and it took 6 month to sell it. Solid, beautiful bike, only 90k , but the market is flooded.

I am getting old and hard labor needs to be weighed out more carefully before you make a decision of value to time ratio.The type of technical work Dirt rider describes here should NEVER be done outside a dealer/professional repair facility.

Mark (take my advice, I am not using it anyway! LOL)

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Thanks to all who have helped!

Next problem is to remove drive shaft and gear sensor from transmission. No idea how they come off.

334lsow.jpg

 

Edited by TheOtherLee
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Thanks to all who have helped!

Next problem is to remove gear sensor from transmission. No idea how they come off.

 

 

Morning Lee

 

 

BIK1w9P.jpg

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Spring clip outside on gears sensor, needs to be squeezed with pliers to release while pulled off.

Driveshafts have internal spring clip, needs to be popped off with pry bar, sometimes needs a blow to hit pry bar and I usually use a wooden block against trans case to prevent metal to metal damage.

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Thank you! Job done.

Could use some tips on splitting trans case. Do you think heat would help loosen the seal?

 

Morning Lee

 

You should first remove the short shift lever from the splines.

 

You m-i-g-h-t need to drive the case centering pins back (try without doing that first then if it still won't separate drive the pins back)

 

You will need to heat the bearing locations in the case front end (180 °f - 212 °f).

 

Then try bumping the case apart using a rubber mallet, or large plastic hammer, (or piece of wood & hammer).

 

I have seen a couple so tight that I needed to make a pusher to bolt to front of trans that pushed on the front end of input shaft.

 

Heat & persistence usually works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I found using two propane torches worked the best when heating up the front of the case around the bearings. Also very handy is a temperature sensor tool. I used a dead blow hammer to take mine apart after it was up to temp.

 

You will also need a tube of anaerobic flange sealant ..... a warning ... be ready for sticker shock ....

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Success! Heat was key along with a bigger dead blow hammer.

 

Question: BMW recommends replacing the 5 bolts that attach the clutch housing to the crankshaft at $8.41 each. Is this really necessary?

 

I may be getting ahead of myself here but Beemer boneyard is currently out of stock on standard clutch plates, having only the one with the extended hub. Is this a good choice?

 

As always, thanks for your invaluable help, all y'all !

 

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Afternoon Lee

 

Question:

 

BMW recommends replacing the 5 bolts that attach the clutch housing to the crankshaft at $8.41 each. Is this really necessary?-- I don't know about absolutely necessary but it is highly recommended as those bolts are stretch to torque. If those bolts come loose or break it will cost you a LOT more than $42.05.

 

I may be getting ahead of myself here but Beemer boneyard is currently out of stock on standard clutch plates, having only the one with the extended hub. Is this a good choice?-- I can't advise you on this as I haven't ever run one let alone run one long term. I doubt that the extended hub will add a lot longer spline life but it probably won't hurt it either.

 

 

 

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The recently-innovated long-hub friction plate is now roughly the same price as a Sachs mis-specified plate. That OEM Sachs plate doesn't completely cover the length of the input shaft spline, as it does on earlier boxer models with only 5 speeds. If you need a new plate for your six-speeder hydrau-actuated dry clutch, why go for the wrong one ?

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It may be of some interest to provide measurement of clutch disc after 86.4K mi. Measurements taken at the location of the rivets. New clutch speced at 6.0 mm. Wear limit 4.5 mm.

Clutch Wear (mm) 
5.86
5.96
5.92
5.90
5.90
5.91
5.92
5.92
5.85
5.88
5.94
5.94 

 

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Got a good deal on a 31Kmi used transmission today.

Thinking of replacing the 2 rear crank seals while I'm at it. Anybody have the special tools required? I'd like to rent or borrow them!

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If you can't find the real deal, you can make your own version using the thin plastic from a yogurt container. I found this worked well in the inner seal, but the outer one was more troublesome. Not my idea. A search should find the details for this.

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I just got a “10Kmi” used trans from a local parts house. I'm thinking of rinsing it out before putting oil in. What do you think of kerosene?

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I just got a “10Kmi” used trans from a local parts house. I'm thinking of rinsing it out before putting oil in. What do you think of kerosene?

 

This is sort of "internet mechanic" wisdom, but I had an old Ford tractor that got water in the transmission/differential case, and it turned to mayonnaise. I needed to flush out all the mayo. I read up on the situation, which is apparently quite common. A frequent recommendation is to use a combination of kerosene and detergent ATF to flush the case. So, I filled the case with that combo, and ran it with no load. Drain, repeat. Then I refilled with the specified tractor lube, and got back to mowing the pasture. For this old loose-tolerance low-power application, it seemed to work fine. In any case, the worst part was finding a way to dispose of 20+ gallons of residual kerosene slurry.

 

But, presumably, you don't have anything horrible in your used transmission, so you don't need to dissolve any goo. If you put kerosene in your BMW transmission, I don't think it will do any harm, as long as you drain it all out. But, the first oil change will get diluted by the residual kerosene, and you will probably want to drain that, and change the oil again.

 

So, while using kerosene probably won't do any harm, the downside is that you'll end up wasting a lot of oil (and time) flushing out the residual kerosene. Why not just use some high-detergent oil to flush the transmission in the first place? That way, you can simply drain out the detergent oil, and replace with BMW spec gear oil. A little residual detergent oil mixed in with your gear oil won't harm anything.

 

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I just got a “10Kmi” used trans from a local parts house. I'm thinking of rinsing it out before putting oil in. What do you think of kerosene?

 

If you get everything back together and have issues with the replacement transmission I doubt the supplier will be pleased to smell kerosene and be inclined to gie you any warranty.

 

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For me, it's a big no no for using kerosene in this application. It is not a lubricant in that sense. It is fine for washing down components that are static, but not for the gearbox.

Just run normal gearbox oil in it and change it very soon if you want to be sure.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Progress...

But first, thanks for all the replies.

Picture below: to me, it's a beautiful thing.

Clutch pack and clutch alignment tool from Beemer Boneyard. Nice people to work with.

2z90jo7.jpg

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I measured crankshaft endplay (.005”) and wobble (axial runout?) (.013”) using the setup pictured. The setup wasn't the best professional job (I used what I had) but when bolted down it felt stable.

 

So —- any thoughts you'd like to share?

 

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Pics have been rotated 90 deg counterclockwise by the software. Sorry.

Edited by TheOtherLee
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With that amount of slop, don't worry too much.

Just be sure to get the longer-hubbed new friction plate and if needs be, install it in your replacement kit.

 

If you need to remove a clutch pack, there's absolutely no need to pay the Greedy Berlin Pig for 6 new attachment bolts as they're only torqued to eighteen Newton meters.

 

The general consensus on this weary topic of excessive premature spline damage seems to be that possible shipping carelessness on the bike's sea-route from Berlin to the USA maybe distorted the crankshaft-to-gearbox factory alignment. Your bike is the precise year that such damage was suspected. They changed the crating layout afterwards, with the front wheel now fitted so that the bike bounced inside when the box was dropped. But of course BMW Motorrad never let on that dropping a crate containing a bike with no front wheel fitted could cause misalignment of the drive train. Their Rule One has always been, "Sagen Sie nichts, nimmer."

 

And stuff some rag into those injector air tubes before something unexpected falls in there as you work. Even though the butterflies are closed, you never know what'll happen whilst wrenching.

 

Great stuff so far....

 

AL in Andalucía.

Edited by Alan Sykes
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I measured crankshaft endplay (.005”) and wobble (axial runout?) (.013”) using the setup pictured. The setup wasn't the best professional job (I used what I had) but when bolted down it felt stable.

 

So —- any thoughts you'd like to share

 

 

Morning Lee

 

Your crankshaft endplay is well within specs but your flywheel wobble measurement is pretty useless as you were measuring on the ring gear area not the clutch housing pads (you need to be concerned with clutch disk wobble not ring gear wobble).

 

You should also measure the crankshaft lateral movement at rear main bearing (in piston movement direction).

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Thanks, DR.

I couldn't rig a dial indicator but I set TDC and pried between case & ring gear and got no movement either way. Also tried with pistons down about 1”. So with that done I wrestled the trans on. I hope that's good enough.

jzk0ts.jpg

 

AL in Andalucía, please note rags😃

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Final drive & airbox on today.

Piece of carpet underlayment in foreground from a friend really saves my knees on the cement floor!

rvevqt.jpg

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Final drive & airbox on today.

Piece of carpet underlayment in foreground from a friend really saves my knees on the cement floor!

rvevqt.jpg

 

Hi Lee,

Bi-Mart has great kneeling pads pretty cheap and they last. Gonna try the Florence Mo's tonight.

 

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Thanks Tim !

Progress today : cables to throttle bodies: had to adjust tab in Bowden slot so Bowden didn't slip back & forth. That took a while. Found it's a lot easier to pull Bowden if you free up battery box. And yeah, it's a lot easier to free up batt box since I removed brake controller a year ago when it went belly up. Cat converter/muffler back on, starter on. Yee haw!

xqeuz4.jpg

Edited by TheOtherLee
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Well, she runs! Only about 10 miles on the used tranny but all gears work & shifts normally. Will leave fairings off for a little while. At how many miles would you drain & refill the tranny? It came to me empty.

 

2v2xzi8.jpg

Edited by TheOtherLee
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Me, 600 unless I heard something (not going to happen).

DR would know better, but I'd want to "see" sooner.

Probably over the top, but always did more/sooner.

MIght even want an analysis.

See what Dr sez, mo betta.

 

Have fun.

Try to find some nice views or such...

 

:/

if there are any around.

;)

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