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Title for a new GSA in my name!


Endobob

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They most likely will want you to return the bike to Norfolk. :dopeslap:

 

Maybe showing up at the BMW dealership with title and requesting possession of the bike would be quicker?? :read:

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Well, this is going to be hard to wait for your next post................

 

Ummmm...what does having Harley Dealerships have to do with this? Is that all they have?

 

It is my understanding that at their other 5 dealerships they only carry Harley Davidson motorcycles. When they purchased this dealership it had a long standing history of also selling BMW and Ducati motorcycles.

 

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Well, the comptroller of the dealership just called, and if I thought it couldn't get anymore complicated, it just did!

Received a message stating the bike has been sold, titled and registered to someone else in the State of Maryland! :dopeslap:

 

Not sure when, who sold the motorcycle (i.e was it ever received by the dealership I was dealing with).

 

The comptroller indicated they still needed to contact each DC & VA vehicle registration departments, etc. and that he would continue to update me and let me know if I need to do anything further to resolve the issue.

 

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Bob, do you have in hand the actual title in your name, or just registration papers with license plate number and VIN?

I have a District of Columbia valid title in my position. Also have the registration and license plate.

 

Edited by Endobobdds
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Then there is no way they could apply for a title anywhere else. You get a title like the owner gets from a document known as an MSO ( Manufacturers Statement of Origin ) or some were/are called a CO ( Certificate of Origin ). Most owners never see these. Typically frowned upon to release these and allow the customer to do their own title work. Another story that.

 

So, when you apply for registration at the appropriate Government facility you are there to get the title assigned, pay taxes, and usually get the license plate process started. When financing the vehicle the loan company is the lienholder and their name is added to the title and they hold the title as collateral. Otherwise the title is sent directly to the registered owner.

 

I know of no process anywhere that would allow a title to be produced without the MSO or CO in hand and presented to the Government office when the paperwork is done. There is no "I forgot that, can I bring it in later?". Doesn't matter if it was Maryland, DC, or anywhere else.

 

I suspect someone doesn't have the story correct. They may think this GSA with VIN xxxxx is sold and titled to someone in Maryland, but they will find that person does not have the paperwork they are supposed to have. They could drive around on a temporary plate for 45-90 days ( depends on state regulations ). Then stop in or call and want to know where their $%*& license plate is!

 

Having seen this happen first hand, I can tell you they have not yet figured out exactly what is wrong...........

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Then there is no way they could apply for a title anywhere else. You get a title like the owner gets from a document known as an MSO ( Manufacturers Statement of Origin ) or some were/are called a CO ( Certificate of Origin ). Most owners never see these. Typically frowned upon to release these and allow the customer to do their own title work. Another story that.

So, when you apply for registration at the appropriate Government facility you are there to get the title assigned, pay taxes, and usually get the license plate process started. When financing the vehicle the loan company is the lienholder and their name is added to the title and they hold the title as collateral. Otherwise the title is sent directly to the registered owner.

I know of no process anywhere that would allow a title to be produced without the MSO or CO in hand and presented to the Government office when the paperwork is done. There is no "I forgot that, can I bring it in later?". Doesn't matter if it was Maryland, DC, or anywhere else.

I suspect someone doesn't have the story correct. They may think this GSA with VIN xxxxx is sold and titled to someone in Maryland, but they will find that person does not have the paperwork they are supposed to have. They could drive around on a temporary plate for 45-90 days ( depends on state regulations ). Then stop in or call and want to know where their $%*& license plate is!

 

Having seen this happen first hand, I can tell you they have not yet figured out exactly what is wrong...........

Just got another call from the Comptroller telling me that the bike was sold by the same dealership to an individual that has the bike and lives in Maryland. He asked me to send him the title that I have for the bike. He also told me that the individual that did the registration on the bike at their Norfolk dealership/registration site had not followed proper protocol and would no longer be in that department.

 

I told the comptroller I would not return the title until I had an opportunity to speak with the manager that I had made the original deal with.

Edited by Endobobdds
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Joe Frickin' Friday
Just got another call from the Comptroller telling me that the bike was sold by the same dealership to an individual that has the bike and lives in Maryland. He asked me to send him the title that I have for the bike. He also told me that the individual that did the registration on the bike at their Norfolk dealership/registration site had not followed proper protocol and would no longer be in that department.

 

I told the comptroller I would not return the title until I had an opportunity to speak with the manager that I had made the original deal with.

 

At the very least, you're going to want to come out of this with a document in your possession that absolves you of any legal responsibility for that bike or anything done by its operator. When you sell a used bike you keep a copy of the signed title, and of course it's also smart to go to the DMV with the buyer to make sure the sale gets recorded. With the weirdness of this situation I'm not sure how you legally establish non-ownership of a bike that was never supposed to be yours in the first place, but it's definitely something to be careful about.

 

Since the bike is legally yours right now, if you wanted to keep things simple, I would think that you could just sell the bike back to the dealer for a few hundred bucks to cover your hassle; then you really would have a copy of the signed-over title. The dealer will be out a few hundred bucks, plus a loss on a bike they now legally have to sell as "used," but that can be their consequence for mismanaging the titling process in the first place.

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At the very least, you're going to want to come out of this with a document in your possession that absolves you of any legal responsibility for that bike or anything done by its operator. When you sell a used bike you keep a copy of the signed title, and of course it's also smart to go to the DMV with the buyer to make sure the sale gets recorded. With the weirdness of this situation I'm not sure how you legally establish non-ownership of a bike that was never supposed to be yours in the first place, but it's definitely something to be careful about.

 

Since the bike is legally yours right now, if you wanted to keep things simple, I would think that you could just sell the bike back to the dealer for a few hundred bucks to cover your hassle; then you really would have a copy of the signed-over title. The dealer will be out a few hundred bucks, plus a loss on a bike they now legally have to sell as "used," but that can be their consequence for mismanaging the titling process in the first place.

 

Not sure, but assume that at this point the new "owner" has temporary tags on the bike from Maryland. If so he may never be able to get the permanent tags once the VIN# shows up as a bike registered to me in DC. As I said, I do not plan on giving the title, registration, or DC plates back to the dealership until all this has been clearly documented and cleaned up. I may ask for the the name and phone number of the individual in Maryland that paid for the bike and thinks he has clear ownership on it.

 

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Since the bike is legally yours right now, if you wanted to keep things simple, I would think that you could just sell the bike back to the dealer for a few hundred bucks to cover your hassle; then you really would have a copy of the signed-over title. The dealer will be out a few hundred bucks, plus a loss on a bike they now legally have to sell as "used," but that can be their consequence for mismanaging the titling process in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

Mitch gave good advice.

 

You deserve compensation for your time and the hassle. The fault is totally theirs, and theirs to make right.

 

It's up to them to straighten out with the buyer of the bike how they are going to handle the title. How could he apply for temp tags w/o MSO? The certainly weren't able to get your title w/o an MSO.

 

Perhaps even BMW Corporate may want to get involved in this royal screw up.

 

 

Edited by Bud
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Joe Frickin' Friday
Not sure, but assume that at this point the new "owner" has temporary tags on the bike from Maryland. If so he may never be able to get the permanent tags once the VIN# shows up as a bike registered to me in DC. As I said, I do not plan on giving the title, registration, or DC plates back to the dealership until all this has been clearly documented and cleaned up. I may ask for the the name and phone number of the individual in Maryland that paid for the bike and thinks he has clear ownership on it.

 

More than that, this bike should be taken off the road until this is all sorted out...unless you're comfortable with a total stranger of unknown riding ability/philosophy/sobriety riding a bike for which you might be liable. If the dealer refuses to make this happen today, you could contact the Maryland State Police for help (and let the dealer know you will be doing this). Don't tell them the bike is stolen - afterall, it's not - but explain what's going on and that you want the bike off the road until further notice. Show them the title and ask for their help; if Maryland issued temp tags, they should know where to find the owner.

 

An added bonus would be the "owner" in Maryland putting a LOT of pressure on the dealer to get this sorted out ASAP.

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I would call BMW of North America, find out who the dealer rep for that region is, explain what happened and that the general mgr of the shop hasn't returned your calls for a week. Things should start moving along more quickly after that.

 

You might also mention you're on a BMW forum with 30,000 members and everyone's been talking about it : )

Edited by roadscholar
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Yes, there are liability issues to consider however remote they may be.

 

You can get temporary tags on anything without doing any title work. That is the purpose of them, to give you legal registration until title work is completed. Often abused, but legal to drive on without title work even applied for.

 

Send them the title? Well, that brings up what bothers me personally most about this. If you send the title back, who is going to sign it over to the dealer/new owner? Which brings me back to what I started out flabbergasted about. Who signed your name to the paperwork to get the registration? Someone absolutely has to have your signature ( or their version of it ) on the paperwork.

 

So, no, I wouldn't be sending them anything until I knew more about the signature on the paperwork. What else did they sign you up for? Extended warranty, pothole protection plan, or who knows what.

 

The actual person that has this bike cannot say they were the original owner. Title will show differently. They could demand a refund. If bike was paid for in cash, and if you got a title with the registration that tells us there is no lien, the Dealer is obligated to provide a CLEAR title. Which they cannot.

 

The only way I see out of this is to sell your title back to the Dealer as if you are selling the bike back. They can then do legal title transfer to the actual owner of the bike. If they can work that out. You could sell it for $1 or whatever it is worth to you. But the tax money is wasted, the value of the bike will be taxed again when they apply for proper registration for the actual owner. If he allows that.

 

Jeeez, they could make a reality show about this....

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I would think that you are obligated to sign the title over to the dealership, since you did not pay for the bike. But, I agree that the dealer should provide you a letter signed by someone with authority explaining that:

 

1. You don't owe them anything.

2. You never consented to the titling and never had possession of the bike.

3. You were unaware the bike had been sold to anyone else.

4. Agreeing to remove the bike from service until it has been re-titled, and/or to indemnify you against any damages that may result.

 

 

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Never had any dealings with a state that issued Temporary Tags.

 

In Illinois, you go to the DMV office with MSO and Bill of Sale, they take application for title and registration, hand you a regular plate over the counter. 2 weeks later you get the title in the mail.

 

For a used bike you surrender the title from the previous owner.

 

BTW In IL, the sales tax on a used motorcycle, regardless of age, is a flat $25.00

 

For a new motorcycle it is 6.25%.

Edited by Bud
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Joe Frickin' Friday
I would think that you are obligated to sign the title over to the dealership, since you did not pay for the bike. But, I agree that the dealer should provide you a letter signed by someone with authority explaining that:

 

1. You don't owe them anything.

2. You never consented to the titling and never had possession of the bike.

3. You were unaware the bike had been sold to anyone else.

4. Agreeing to remove the bike from service until it has been re-titled, and/or to indemnify you against any damages that may result.

 

There's also the question of how they were able to title the bike in his name without his signature, unless you (Bob) are satisfied with their explanation that someone "had not followed proper protocol."

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Thank you all for your helpful suggestions!

 

If the General Manager of the dealership that I placed the original order with, and who then cancelled and returned my deposit, is still unavailable to speak with me tomorrow I think this is my plan of action:

 

1. Tell the comptroller of the dealership to notify the person that bought the bike that it is not owned by him, cannot be ridden, and will be picked up by the dealership until this is all corrected or alternatively agree to sign over the title to the dealership for $1000.00

2. If the comptroller/dealership will not do one of the above actions or take a similar action to insure the bike is no longer being ridden, I think I should call BMW of North America and the Maryland State Police to see want action(s) they recommend.

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I would call BMW of North America, find out who the dealer rep for that region is, explain what happened and that the general mgr of the shop hasn't returned your calls for a week. Things should start moving along more quickly after that.

 

You might also mention you're on a BMW forum with 30,000 members and everyone's been talking about it : )

 

 

Thank you all for your helpful suggestions!

 

If the General Manager of the dealership that I placed the original order with, and who then cancelled and returned my deposit, is still unavailable to speak with me tomorrow I think this is my plan of action:

 

1. Tell the comptroller of the dealership to notify the person that bought the bike that it is not owned by him, cannot be ridden, and will be picked up by the dealership until this is all corrected or alternatively agree to sign over the title to the dealership for $1000.00

2. If the comptroller/dealership will not do one of the above actions or take a similar action to insure the bike is no longer being ridden, I think I should call BMW of North America and the Maryland State Police to see want action(s) they recommend.

 

Bob, the comptroller will do what the general manager tells him to do, not you, and so far there hasn't been much progress from him. Again, notify BMWNA of the situation, it will get you quicker results than anything else you could do (you might tell them your thinking about calling the police). BMW doesn't want any hanky panky among it's dealers whether it's unethical, illegal, or just plain stupid behavior and the dealer doesn't want to lose his franchise. At the very minimum I think the mother ship needs to know about it.

 

Edit.. https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/info/contact.html

 

Edited by roadscholar
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I'm enjoying the twists and turns of this EndoStory, and I've had to buy more popcorn. I hate to pile on :ohboy: :ohboy: - but one word that seems to get quick attention is FRAUD. START throwing that word around and you'll get BMWNA's attention right quick!

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...Bob, the comptroller will do what the general manager tells him to do, not you, and so far there hasn't been much progress from him. Again, notify BMWNA of the situation, it will get you quicker results than anything else you could do (you might tell them your thinking about calling the police). BMW doesn't want any hanky panky among it's dealers whether it's unethical, illegal, or just plain stupid behavior and the dealer doesn't want to lose his franchise. At the very minimum I think the mother ship needs to know about it.

I'd echo roadscholar's advice. If the GM won't talk to you then the proper recourse is BMWNA. As you've said, your an easy going, reasonable person ... but .... a written assurance of no liability and some form of compensation is warranted. On compensation, you need to pre determine what is acceptable ... like cash or discounts on future purchase (bike or accessories)

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Bob, the comptroller will do what the general manager tells him to do, not you, and so far there hasn't been much progress from him. Again, notify BMWNA of the situation, it will get you quicker results than anything else you could do (you might tell them your thinking about calling the police). BMW doesn't want any hanky panky among it's dealers whether it's unethical, illegal, or just plain stupid behavior and the dealer doesn't want to lose his franchise. At the very minimum I think the mother ship needs to know about it.

Edit.. https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/info/contact.html

The General Manager has been out of town and not available but I am told will be back either tomorrow or Wednesday.

Bill is correct! I will notify BMW and let them know that I will wait to speak with the General Manager, as long as it will be in the next couple of days, prior to taking any other actions.

 

 

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Actually, the General Manager at these dealerships will do what the Controller wants done in cases like this. Very few GM's have any experience beyond sales, marketing. Some might know a bit about financing. Most don't even know much about parts and service beyond how to interact with customers and service needs.

 

This will ultimately be dealt with at the corporate level. The new thing in Dealerships is one company owning many storefronts. ALL the accounting and most business related decisions come down from that level. I figure the Controller that had contact with Bob is at the corporate office?

 

Signing a name to title work is probably a Felony. No one knows if there are other documents that were signed without permission. That the Dealership is not cooperating is ominous to me. May be time to report this to the State Police to start with, or even though I was joking earlier, the FBI. This is what the FBI does. Normally after car theft rings and shady dealers that used to change odometers or convert salvage titles. But this is fraud at a franchised dealer that is probably a publicly traded company. Not good that.

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The General Manager has been out of town and not available but I am told will be back either tomorrow or Wednesday.

 

 

I will pretty much guarantee you that the GM knows about this, out of town or not.........

 

They still don't know what is going on, or unwilling to admit it yet. Could be other paperwork for other deals being researched.

 

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As far as getting out of control - internet wise - this thread has been pretty reserved. One thing to keep in mind is that Endo originally arranged to buy a bike from the dealership and in the normal course of doing things, signed all the papers presented. Things went south when the bike arrived and wasn't equipped as ordered. While it very well may be that the salesman knew this ahead of time, and thought / assumed counted on the lure of a new bike and the 'salesman's skilled ways of persuasion' to convince Endo to just take it and live happily ever after till he gets home and then it's too much hassle to take it back and get what he really wanted (it happens a lot). I'd like to give the dealership a little bit of ''the benefit of the doubt' - until known otherwise. Bob could have signed something that gave them POA for title and license - and then that paperwork was never destroyed when the deal went south.

 

Fast foreword to last week, and I bet you "a dollar to a donut" [southern euphemism, Terry :wave:] that the bike originally presented to Endo - that he refused - has now been SOLD to someone else and is in possession of the 'new' owner. Endo's paperwork wasn't voided and destroyed and was probably still in the file for the bike he refused. So the bike gets sold and the file gets sent to Norfolk and Endo's signed paperwork is there and associated with the bike he refused. And now the title is in Bob's name and the bike is in possession of the new rightful owner.

 

I want to believe this is a simple case of confusion - not of intentional misdoings.

 

Having said that, while I've known some great people in the car business - I've also met some of the shadiest people on earth (outside of politicians) - I know in the car business.

Edited by Indy Dave
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When you place an order for a bike, you should never have to sign any document related to the actual registration of the bike. You might sign a credit application, to verify your ability to buy. You may, and actually should, sign a buyers order/agreement with pricing information. You may put a deposit down and sign a document to show that. (BTW, you cannot hold a deposit from a customer if they back out, unless you can show damage from that.)

 

Typically a POA ( Power of Attorney ) would ONLY allow the signature of the buyer to be put on a title/MSO. That is because these are not always available at the Dealership, some are held by banking institutions as collateral for floor plan. No other document, such as manufacturers incentives, registration, should be signed by ANYONE besides the buyer. I have overnighted my share of paperwork just for that reason!

 

 

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I think this just a clerical error and there was no intention to defraud anyone. Shift happens.

 

I still think the dealer owes Bob compensation for having to deal with all of this.

 

The dealer is stuck with selling a new bike as used now that the MSO has been surrendered in order to get a title for Bob.

 

The current "owner" is on his own to negotiate a satisfactory resolution with the seller.

 

This will end well for Bob. Not so well for the dealer.

 

And I bet the "dollar to a donut" to anyone willing to wager and we will settle up at START! :clap:

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Dennis Andress
As far as getting out of control - internet wise - this thread has been pretty reserved. One thing to keep in mind is that Endo originally arranged to buy a bike from the dealership and in the normal course of doing things, signed all the papers presented. Things went south when the bike arrived and wasn't equipped as ordered. While it very well may be that the salesman knew this ahead of time, and thought / assumed counted on the lure of a new bike and the 'salesman's skilled ways of persuasion' to convince Endo to just take it and live happily ever after till he gets home and then it's too much hassle to take it back and get what he really wanted (it happens a lot). I'd like to give the dealership a little bit of ''the benefit of the doubt' - until known otherwise. Bob could have signed something that gave them POA for title and license - and then that paperwork was never destroyed when the deal went south.

 

Fast foreword to last week, and I bet you "a dollar to a donut" [southern euphemism, Terry :wave:] that the bike originally presented to Endo - that he refused - has now been SOLD to someone else and is in possession of the 'new' owner. Endo's paperwork wasn't voided and destroyed and was probably still in the file for the bike he refused. So the bike gets sold and the file gets sent to Norfolk and Endo's signed paperwork is there and associated with the bike he refused. And now the title is in Bob's name and the bike is in possession of the new rightful owner.

 

I want to believe this is a simple case of confusion - not of intentional misdoings.

 

Having said that, while I've known some great people in the car business - I've also met some of the shadiest people on earth (outside of politicians) - I know in the car business.

 

 

 

The new owner of the bike probably financed. His/her lender will be ticked when a title isn't available for the lien.

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Well, can we assume that the lawyers have gotten to Endobobdds with a gag order?

Not really, I have been very busy taking care of other pressing family issues.

The dealer has explained fully how the mistake was made, sent me a letter documenting that they take full responsibility for any expense or legal action that may occur and that I have absolutely no liability. I was told that they contacted BMW of North America, and are in the process of contacting the District of Columbia (title issued to me) and the person who has the motorcycle to let them know of the situation and that the title being issued to the other person will indicate that it is a new vehicle.

 

I should hear more about the final resolution of all of this by the end of this week.

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:rofl:

 

This happens.

Shouldn't.

Either on purpose, or inadvertently.

 

We had a rider stop in.

Brand new bike. Bought on East Coast Big Name Dealership.

Problems. He had only ridden a couple hundred miles from that dealership on his ride back to midwest

and problems with bike.

 

We enter VIN#.

Hmmmmmmm, bike has a prior owner.

Draw straws to see who tells this guy his "new" bike isn't.

 

Seems the other dealership sold the bike to a staff member to collect rebates from BMW, on paper.

Then sold it a few months later to this guy as new.

Had to tell him he only had a 32-33 month warranty remaining.

 

One of many, many horror stories from that place.

 

That dealership is still operating. I wouldn't buy a bucket of water from them if I was on fire.

But I think they have changed ownership, so...

 

Bob, did you sign a lot of paperwork in the original deal?

Look for any POA/title application.

 

If not, I'd suggest a face to face with owner of dealership and forthright discusssion about sales practices

and how it has im[pacted you.

And, how difficult it is to have faith in the dealership.

Not so much for monetary compensation, but rather for priority attention (it happens)

when you need it.

Best wishes.

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It will be interesting to see how the title will be "first owner" to the person that actually bought the bike. That really isn't a big deal to me, but some would care a lot. I don't think it would effect me if appraising the bike on a future trade-in.

 

And there is still the matter of your signature on the paperwork. That is what I am uncomfortable with. The rest can be attributed to sloppy work and careless practices.

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Dennis Andress

True story:

 

When Laney and I were married at Torrey we got a marriage license at the local court house. The license required two signatures, and we asked Leslie and Jamie to sign. Jamie warned us that his signature was illegible. It was, we got a call from the court house the next day asking what that was!

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