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#1000046 - 11/01/17 05:21 PM Mod Chips?  
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Bimmer-Biker Offline
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Friend of mine put one of these in his 2003 1150 and raved about it. I am pretty skeptical.

https://goo.gl/4P6wRi


Nothing ever tastes as sweet as a few bugs in your teeth.
2004 BMW R1150RT
#1000047 - 11/01/17 05:43 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Grevens Offline
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... I am not your freind, but I also put one of these chips into my 2004 RT ...

- I kind of feel i makes my life better, and makes me feel more happy, I lost a few pounds and my teeth looks more white ... smile

- what the chip have done to the bike is harder for me to explain ... but Kirk have done a nice video where he talks about it ! ... and I think hes got some good points.

https://youtu.be/pHNLb_epZTQ


04' R1150RT
#1000048 - 11/01/17 05:50 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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dirtrider Offline
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Originally Posted by Bimmer-Biker
Friend of mine put one of these in his 2003 1150 and raved about it. I am pretty skeptical.

https://goo.gl/4P6wRi



Afternoon Bimmer-Biker

With a claim of "+20%, power +12% more final speed" you should be skeptical, very skeptical.


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#1000052 - 11/01/17 06:25 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Any effect on Male Potency? It seems to do everything else. thumbsup

All manufactures leave a safety margin on timing. But 9 deg. more adv. at mid range. hmmmm? Means BMW left a lot on the table.
I have a 1969 car and was able to add that much adv. at low-mid rpm... but this was on an early emissions car that suffered a huge performance loss over its non EPA'd older cousins.

I'm with DR, you go first & report back. I can always use more torque to hide my lack of riding talent.
Dave

#1000053 - 11/01/17 08:05 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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... for me and my bike, it makes the job like "Boosterplug" - " Powercommander" and "Af-axied" ... gives me a better ride , more smooth riding, and a bit longer before i have to refuel ... ... anyway, Kirk in the youtupe video link above says it all much better, and hes from your side of the pond smile

I have never been to end of the final speed, so cant tell if it is true .

- ill just go back to the saltmines for now ...


04' R1150RT
#1000057 - 11/01/17 09:25 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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I tried one. It added fuel that the Motronic started removing over the first few miles. The guy doing the chips doesn’t understand the role of long term fuel trims.

As for 20% more power by a chip change, we all know that’s impossible, right? And to add 12% to top speed you need a 40% HP increase on an 1150.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 11/01/17 09:26 PM.
#1000088 - 11/02/17 02:29 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
...The guy doing the chips doesn’t understand the role of long term fuel trims.


ECU/PCM/Motronic (however you want to call it) is one of those things I know enough about to know that I don't know enough about them to be qualified to make adjustments.

But a situation like that, where someone doesn't understand long term fuel trim would make me wonder what else they don't understand, and what other shortcuts or mistakes they might have made.

I've done some modest tuning with a MegaSquirt on a race car - adjusting spark advance and duration and injector timing... and I know that there's a ton more to it than that (which is why I called it quits and told the car owner they needed an expert - not me!)


Scott
1999 R1100RT & some Hinkley Triumphs
#1000095 - 11/02/17 11:57 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: avu3]  
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Originally Posted by avu3
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
...The guy doing the chips doesn’t understand the role of long term fuel trims.


ECU/PCM/Motronic (however you want to call it) is one of those things I know enough about to know that I don't know enough about them to be qualified to make adjustments.

But a situation like that, where someone doesn't understand long term fuel trim would make me wonder what else they don't understand, and what other shortcuts or mistakes they might have made.

I've done some modest tuning with a MegaSquirt on a race car - adjusting spark advance and duration and injector timing... and I know that there's a ton more to it than that (which is why I called it quits and told the car owner they needed an expert - not me!)


You raise a good question, what else don’t they understand? One of the details I noticed was that although the ignition advance was increased on the chip I tested, the dwell angle had not been altered. As a result, the average dwell time on the stick coils dropped form 1 mS to about 0.5 mS. So as you said, there’s a lot to know to alter the bmw tables correctly.

#1000099 - 11/02/17 01:01 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: dirtrider]  
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Originally Posted by dirtrider
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Biker
Friend of mine put one of these in his 2003 1150 and raved about it. I am pretty skeptical.

https://goo.gl/4P6wRi



Afternoon Bimmer-Biker

With a claim of "+20%, power +12% more final speed" you should be skeptical, very skeptical.



Ridiculous.
I got a 43.86% increase just reading the instructions.
Everyone knows that BMW engineers leave a lot of oomphypower available with many mods that will give you more acceleration,
Better mpg, higher top speed, faster roll on in every gear, make your headlight brighter, and eliminate flat tires.
Lighter wallet always makes bike go faster, right?


If my mind wanders, should I follow it?
Tim
Conch Town Krewe
2003 K 1200 GT
1996 R 1100 RSL
1980 R 100 RT
1972 R 75
1968 R 50
All now gone...

#1000101 - 11/02/17 01:31 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Not a mod chip by any stretch but a final drive rebuild has given me a easier turning rear tire. My friend Michael noticed the wheel being hard to turn when we were changing out brake linings. Cleaning and lubing the caliper pins helped but there is a tremendous difference in the turning of the tire now. I should expect less drag, more MPG and overall better performance. I am the convinced the original drag was primarily caused by the big bearing going bad.


2011 R1200R, '2014 Honda CB1100,
Kernersville, NC
#1000208 - 11/04/17 01:35 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Roger C]  
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Roger C,

Do you still have the OEM brake lines on that RT??


Old Fart Newbie
#1000216 - 11/04/17 05:31 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Lowndes]  
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Roger C Offline
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Originally Posted by Lowndes
Roger C,

Do you still have the OEM brake lines on that RT??


No, in my previous post, I mentioned my friend Michael and I changed out the old lines but did not specify Speiglers.
I just happened to look inside the rear reservoir this week and found some black residue which may have been remnants of my old linings. I cleaned it out and proceeded with bleeding the rear brakes.


2011 R1200R, '2014 Honda CB1100,
Kernersville, NC
#1000571 - 11/09/17 03:48 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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You're all being very suspicious of a Greek electronics engineer who knows his stuff well enough to have been able to sell his performance-modding chips to hundreds of EU bikers and in the process, has given them measurable improvements as a result, in fuelling, tractability and overall performance.
Me included.
I could point you all at several forum threads proving my point, but I just can't be bothered....

AL in s.e. Spain


This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1000577 - 11/09/17 06:56 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Roger C]  
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Originally Posted by Roger C
Not a mod chip by any stretch but a final drive rebuild has given me a easier turning rear tire. My friend Michael noticed the wheel being hard to turn when we were changing out brake linings. Cleaning and lubing the caliper pins helped but there is a tremendous difference in the turning of the tire now. I should expect less drag, more MPG and overall better performance. I am the convinced the original drag was primarily caused by the big bearing going bad.

Not to hijack the thread, but Roger C, I expect you will see improved economy. I certainly did when I replaced my tranny with one that turned much easier. About 20% or so better. And that's even adding an LC-1 and running at 13.9:1 AFR!


Tom
San Antonio, TX

Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

1996 R1100RT
#1000644 - 11/10/17 04:40 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Alan Sykes]  
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Originally Posted by Alan Sykes
You're all being very suspicious of a Greek electronics engineer who knows his stuff well enough to have been able to sell his performance-modding chips to hundreds of EU bikers and in the process, has given them measurable improvements as a result, in fuelling, tractability and overall performance.
Me included.
I could point you all at several forum threads proving my point, but I just can't be bothered....

AL in s.e. Spain


Suspicious for good reason.
But, instead of chastising, and then dismissing us, why not try a more posiotive approach.
I've seen a lot of BS out there, so yes, skeptical.

I went to the website, took digging, but he publishes images showing different numbers, not easily identified
as to what they are, but showing different results in HP.
He has testmonials.
So, I'll amend my reply.
If it intrigues someone, give it a try, a then report back.
Do a detailed pre install analysis.
Tune up (most of the testimonials were accompanied by maintenance at time of install), etc.
Dyno test it, run circuits for mpg data.
Then, repeat for the chip.
Tune up, run circuits for mpg etc.
Maybe it does change the numbers positively, all across the board.
He did indicate a top speed increase from 1222 to 125 mph on an 1150 GS.
OK.
I can appreciate that.
But everything I've seen before has trade offs for "improvements", somewhere.
Maybe this is different.
Good luck.


If my mind wanders, should I follow it?
Tim
Conch Town Krewe
2003 K 1200 GT
1996 R 1100 RSL
1980 R 100 RT
1972 R 75
1968 R 50
All now gone...

#1000675 - 11/11/17 01:52 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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I don't have an 1150 anymore but I can't tell you how many times I was going 122 and wished I could go 125 smile


David
RT WET
#1000704 - 11/11/17 03:08 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Skywagon]  
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Originally Posted by Skywagon
I don't have an 1150 anymore but I can't tell you how many times I was going 122 and wished I could go 125 smile


Yep.
Been with friends who felt the same way.
Especially when I dropped into 5th on the GT and walked away...
rofl


If my mind wanders, should I follow it?
Tim
Conch Town Krewe
2003 K 1200 GT
1996 R 1100 RSL
1980 R 100 RT
1972 R 75
1968 R 50
All now gone...

#1000705 - 11/11/17 03:09 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Alan Sykes Offline
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OK, here's a couple of endorsements from ordinary bikers; screen grabs for veracity, in case all you suspicious nay-sayers think I'm having you on.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[img]https://postimg.org/image/t0w1xzx1h/[/img]

There are also equally enthusiastic comments on forums like ADVRider and Pelikan Parts, plus further favourable reviews on the two main German BMW Boxer forums, but they talk funny.....

Needless to say, I don't know the guy and mostly don't understand his Google Translated English. I found out about his existence whilst reading posts on the UKGSer forum. So I e-mailed him and told him that my bike had the OEM air-filter box containing the standard paper filter, a Y-piece instead of the OEM cat lump that weighs almost 12 kg, and that it had the OEM silencer.

So one evening last summer I fitted the chip he sent me from Greece to my UK address, into my '04 non-ABS 24K miles Rockster.

The day after, on a 70 mile ride-out, in comparison to the OEM chip that had been in there - very difficult by the way to get the lid off the Motronic tin box - take your time using a wide-blade screwdriver a millimetre at a time whilst waiting for the weatherproofing glue to slowly give way as you move along - it took me half-an-hour to get all round the circumference - the bike then went like sh*t off a shovel in all gears, with faster starting on the "choke" lever, much more eager and rapid response to every throttle roll-on, especially in mid-range, along with continuing slight improvements in fuel economy as each tankful of 95 is used. I only buy 95 at fuel stations. The last tankful of mixed-zooming riding returned 53 miles-per-gallon and I think it'll be more next time when I ride around on it at Christmas and New Year.

To repeat, I have no connection with the guy except as one of his customers but I think he seems to be a genuinely enthusiastic and experienced e-prommer, as well as an R850R owner - and I always try to keep an open mind on any news of an innovatory nature.

AL in s.e. Spain





Last edited by Alan Sykes; 11/11/17 03:21 PM.

This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1000729 - 11/12/17 12:44 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I still follow the 1100/1150 group on facebook. Folks there seem to like this guy's chips.


Dave
#1001077 - 11/17/17 03:50 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Alan Sykes Offline
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Trying again with the missing screen-grabs :-

[Linked Image]

https://s26.postimg.org/rylvfge89/BMW_Boxer_John_the_Greek_s_Performance_Chip_-_Th.jpg

Hope they both now appear....

AL in s.e. Spain


This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1001089 - 11/17/17 04:56 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Although I posted earlier, given the cheerleading and posting from the UKGSER forum I'd like to add a few comments.

To my knowledge, no one other than me has measured these chips to see what they do. On my R1150, they didn't alter fueling once Closed Loop kicked in and the Long Term Trims were fully adjusted by the Motronic.

The designer of these chips postulated for a long time that there were “Lambda” tables that allowed target lambda to be set in the Motronic. In spite of the fact that there is NO Motronic documentation supporting that contention, and in spite of my measurement of his chips that showed no lambda shift, he clung to the “belief” because other friends told him so.

Eventually I persuaded him to buy an LC-2, install it in his bike and measure AFR (something he should have done at the beginning of his project). He then measured the AFR with his LC-2 and agreed that the tables he was changing didn’t do what he claimed. Here's what he said in the forum:

“Finally, you are right about the close loop it is always 14,7:1”

He then went on to say that Closed Loop adaptation didn’t exist. ...

Although he has the LC-2 which has recording and plotting capability, he has never published a single log of AFR made while riding a single motorcycle. The reason is it would show, as I have shown after trying one of his chips, that his mods of fueling don’t do what he claims.

In addition, he certainly doesn’t understand the interplay of Closed Loop fueling and long term trims. If he did, he wouldn’t change fueling in the Closed Loop area. Doing so eventually erodes changes made in the Open Loop parts of the maps. (Power Commanders with Wideband O2 sensors block changes in the Closed Loop area because of this effect.)

Lastly, he adjusts ignition timing angles without adjusting dwell, shortening the absolute amount of dwell time and weakening the spark. There are other tables too whose functions he changes but has not shown understanding or measured effects.

In terms of unmeasured, cheerleading posts, I'm reminded that over 10,000 BoosterPlugs have been purchased and extolled. Although they do shift input air temperature, no long term effect can be measured. That doesn't seem to stop people from buying them. Worse was a temperature shifter called the IIceair. On R1200s, due to a design error, it didn't even shift temperature at all. In spite of that there were literally hundreds of posts exclaiming its benefits, until the producer exited the business.

#1001090 - 11/17/17 05:26 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Well said Roger.
Even if there were SOME truth to his post, the figures would be NOWHERE near what he claims.

#1001118 - 11/18/17 10:37 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Alan Sykes Offline
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Roger-the-'04-RT'er has long been an erudite contributor to this issue of re-e-promming a Motronic, particularly with regard to his comments on John The Greek's claims for his 'performance' chip.

But despite arguing the merits and demerits of Closed Loop Fuelling, target Lambda setting and Long Term Trims, etc.....

¿ How does one account for the sometimes dramatic effects on throttle response, better starting, improved smoothness and tractability that are reported by SO many purchasers, after fitting the darned thing into an 1150 boxer ?

Surely it's insulting to suggest that the expenditure of a mere sixty-odd euro induces in a rider some form of self-delusion / willing suspension of disbelief ?

Installing a performance chip is a radical step, beyond the wrenching capability of a large majority of riders: It's complicated, time-consuming and risky; struggling to get at the Motronic unit and then to open it up, can mean damaged fixings, badly pinched finger-ends and an irreparable box, apart from the fact that installing it incorrectly stops the bike dead.

But despite Roger's apparent erudition, and trying to forgive his denigrating comments on this and other forums on John The Greek's ability and motives in marketing his chips, it must be said once and for all, that those of us who've lashed out that princely sum ARE NOT KIDDING OURSELVES as to its effects on our bikes. Why the duck would we lie ?

We are not a John-The-Greek Fan Club. On the contrary, we are simply proving that an eleven-fifty cc boxer-twin motor unit can vastly exceed BMW's predetermined power and flexibility parameters.

AL in s.e. Spain

Last edited by Alan Sykes; 11/18/17 10:38 AM.

This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1001122 - 11/18/17 11:42 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Al in s.e. Spain.

Hopefully you can see why there is skepticism. Do you have before and after data showing double digit percentage increases in horsepower, torque, top speed and fuel economy on your bike?

Thanks and be well.

Terry


Terry
Perry,GA

#1001203 - 11/19/17 09:34 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Alan Sykes Offline
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Thanks Terry - no I don't tend to go assembling statistical or other data, to prove that my recently-fitted roadster handlebar is much more comfortable on the Rockster than the OEM bar was. Or that the footpeg kit from a GS which I recently fitted, means that my knees are more relaxed than they were after a day on OEM Rockster footpegs.

Neither do I - nor I presume do any other riders - have comparative data before and after fitting the chip.

My satisfaction with the swap-out is simply based on 40 years of riding motorcycles, thirty of them on BMW boxers. To suggest that I've had a false impression of the comparatively increased flexibility, torque, responsiveness and fuel economy, is to question my intelligence, perceptiveness and expertise as a motorcyclist.

And that suggestion doesn't sit well in a friendly forum. If you don't believe that such a chip can improve riding satisfaction and give you a thrill at the change in performance, don't go spending sixty+ snoojits on one. But don't please imply that I'm deluded.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
¿ Are those rear-wheel chicken-strips narrow enough for you ?
https://s26.postimg.org/p5pjw5cuh/ALs_BMW_Scarver_outside_Ignacios_Bar.jpg


Last edited by Alan Sykes; 11/19/17 09:40 AM.

This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1001213 - 11/19/17 01:42 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Thanks for the reply Al, I appreciate it. I did not intend to suggest that you had a false impression of the comparatively increased flexibility, torque, responsiveness and fuel economy, nor did I wish to question your intelligence, perceptiveness and expertise as a motorcyclist. Neither is there any intention on my part to imply that you are deluded. While assembling statistical or other data on the comfort of changing bars and footpegs is subjective, gathering information on horsepower, torque, fuel economy and Air to Fuel Ratios is not. Nor is it difficult. Realizing words cannot express tone, I do apologize if you I gave you the wrong impression with my question, I do appreciate the answer and take it as a simple no, you have not. The claims in performance and economy are quite large, thus skepticism on my part. It is great you are happy with the device and I wish you well.

Regarding the "chicken-strip" question posed, I have no opinion one way or the other.

Be well.

Terry


Terry
Perry,GA

#1001223 - 11/19/17 04:24 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Well Al, please ease yourself down from that High Horse of yours.
The developer of this chip made the claims of 'more HP, more torque' blah blah blah. This is not about who has more or less intelligence. It is about information:
The 'developer' claims: For all stock and mod bikes. ...Full remaping, torque +20%, power +12% more final speed.

Right, where is that date? where are the dyno figures, the spreadsheets etc.

Not seat of the pants stuff which means not a lot when the developer is touting figures.

#1001230 - 11/19/17 05:56 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: AndyS]  
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I'll contribute to the purchase of one.

On the condition the bike is tested before installing, and after.

If, and only if, all advertising claims are met will I acknowledge said farkle as legitimate.

The internet is full of claims.
Guaranteed lottery numbers, pheromones that drive the opposite gender crazy, among others.

I have a guarantee.
Tune your bike (a requirement of the chip), lose 20 pounds, put new tires on.
You'll be happier, so will your bike.


If my mind wanders, should I follow it?
Tim
Conch Town Krewe
2003 K 1200 GT
1996 R 1100 RSL
1980 R 100 RT
1972 R 75
1968 R 50
All now gone...

#1001232 - 11/19/17 06:14 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Bert Remington Offline
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Roger 04 RT -- when you say "he adjusts ignition timing angles without adjusting dwell" does this mean the ECU controls current-on and current-off angles independently resulting in a variable dwell? If so, is the dwell fixed or is it varied according to rpm?

BTW this is one reason why I like capacitive discharge ignitions -- I use MSD's everywhere I can together with copper spark plugs -- no fussy platinum or fragile iridium spark plugs!


2000 BMW R1100RT
2016 Royal Enfield Classic 500
#1001235 - 11/19/17 07:21 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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roger 04 rt Offline
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Bert, Yes, the Motronic has tables for coil current on (dwell angle) and coil current off (ignition angle). That leaves the possibility of varying the dwell time, but it doesn’t happen often. One condition that does have a longer dwell time is during the first few moments of cranking: from memory (I posted it somewhere) the dwell is about 3X the norm. That’s to get a good fat hot spark.

The R1200 and R1150 use the same stick coil but because it doesn’t use a “wasted spark” ignition, the R1200 has a 2 millisecond dwell time. On the R1150, that is cut in half to only 1 mS. In the case of a John-chip, the dwell was reduced to 300-500 microseconds, which is less than 1/4 of an R1200.

My experience was that even at 1 mS the R1150 is marginal. BMW boosted the voltage by adding a Second Load Relay late in the production run to improve coil charging.

Have you used a CDI on an Oilhead?

#1001241 - 11/19/17 09:59 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Bert Remington Offline
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Roger -- thanks for the clarification. Increased dwell on cranking definitely makes sense as response to low voltage reducing coil's stored energy.

Since my post, I've investigated oilhead-compatible CDIs. About a decade ago MSD made the MC-1 and MC-2 (same 4220 p/n apparently) and MC-3 (p/n 4223) CDIs for single- and dual-coil DISs. There is a matching p/n 8204 coil. Dynatek also has some motorcycle ignitions but product line doesn't seem to include much in CDI technology, at least for non-Harley twins (they do have an ARC-2 CDI that may work for the K-series).

There are two MC-1s on eBay but kinda pricey and definitely old although my MSD experiences say that's not a problem. So I've got Saved Searches active and we'll see what turns up.

There's a nice MC-2 at 2040-parts.com but the website looks unsafe.

The MC-4 is inappropriate for a non-race motorcycle.

I'm still researching but the MSD MC-1 form factor seems to be about the same as the early MSD 6-series (saves money). I just happen to have an MSD 6AL in storage. Since its coil feed is isolated from ground I'll see what the BMW primary looks like (I'm in SD now, leaving for Descanso shortly). I also want to research the internal resistance of my PC680 but I think a Shorai LFX36L3-BS12 might be needed to make up for motorcycle vice car battery surge current. On the other hand, using a p/n 8830 filter capacitor with an 8-cylinder 10K-capable 6AL on a "single-cylinder" 8K oilhead probably means surge current won't be an issue smile MSD recommends increasing plug gap to benefit from increased energy but from what I've read about oilhead coils and wires the stock gap would be safest. Just thinking out loud, ya know...

Apologies for getting off topic. If I pursue this further will start a new one.


2000 BMW R1100RT
2016 Royal Enfield Classic 500
#1001247 - 11/20/17 12:20 AM John's chips apparently plagarized Roger 04 RT's photograph [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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The third photograph at https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-PERFORMANCE-ECONOMY-JOHNS-CHIP-BMW-MOTO-R-850-R1100-R1150-GS-RT-R-RS-S/112623160867?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 is plagarized (ie, unattributed alteration) from Roger 04 RT Post #845558. I mean how many people have the same garage layout?

Alan Sykes -- anything you want to add to my observation?


2000 BMW R1100RT
2016 Royal Enfield Classic 500
#1001254 - 11/20/17 01:59 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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John acknowledged his mistake and is deleting plagiarized photograph.

Alan Sykes -- where do you stand on this ethical error?


2000 BMW R1100RT
2016 Royal Enfield Classic 500
#1001257 - 11/20/17 02:47 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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roger 04 rt Offline
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That’s the second time one of my charts has turned up on John’s web site. Thanks for catching it.

#1001272 - 11/20/17 03:32 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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My Goodness these assertions of mine have certainly stimulated some very interesting posts - ¿ clearly shows that we have a a healthy forum, doesn't it ? Maybe I sounded a touch pompous in disputing the naysayers' comments - if so, sorry.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that the chip effing-well works.

Maybe John-The-Greek makes for his achievement, unsubstantiated claims on his FleaBay commercial messages. So did the guy who installed my powered garage door. And he didn't acknowledge the ownership of some of the fotos that he used in his flyer literature and on his web-pages, the ones he pinched off another electrically-operated garage door firm's video.

Can you copyright a foto ? No lo se......

But the Greek chip works. Despite the guy slyly jacking up the FleaBay selling price; I paid €66 for mine in July this year, 2017. I installed it ( with GREAT difficulty ) and it effing well works. So all the hassle, struggling, cursing, swabbing bleeding finger ends, it all 'merece la pena'...the bike's performance is now much improved.

As the estimable Kirk says in the final part of his long to-camera musings about the chip on the Toob, to which I've taken a very sharp video blade, resulting in a two-and-a-half minute video, here :-

https://vimeo.com/243661221

AL in s.e. Spain


This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1001310 - 11/21/17 03:26 AM Let's do some measurements for John's chip [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Bert Remington Offline
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I went to John's eBay listing for R1100's a few days ago and there was only one left. Now there are none because I bought it. Consider it a community service in the interests of performance measurements.

I responded to John's configuration request via e-mail as follows:

==>
John – the configuration is:

2000 R1100RT 76K miles VIN WB10418A4YZC7334

Air/Fuel Components: paper air filter; stock RT intake tubes; matched EV14 (R1200) fuel injectors; no evaporative canister; Autolite APP3923 dual platinum spark plugs; stock camshaft and valves; new stock O2 sensor; GPR homologated slip-on exhaust (Trioval); fuel type is premium 91 AKI or (R+M)/2 octane; engine oil is Spectro 4 20W-50 mineral (non-synthetic).

I am interested in mid-range torque over high-range horsepower, specifically 2,000-5,000 rpm. Fuel mileage is not a concern. The motorcycle does not have a surging problem and I want to keep it this way.
<==

My e-mail included photographs of the CCP (Gold 30-87), ECU label and engine numbers. I didn't mention I will be running an AF-XIED.

I don't have an LC-2, etc and don't want to find and fuss with a dynamometer until next summer, if then.

Sooo...would anyone like to borrow or buy (same $88 I paid) this chip to collect and report some performance measurements for their R1100xx?


2000 BMW R1100RT
2016 Royal Enfield Classic 500
#1001318 - 11/21/17 09:18 AM Re: Let's do some measurements for John's chip [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Hi Bert,
¿ From where did you source your matched later-model injectors ? I've read on other forums about their improved spray-pattern.

I think the Greek guy e-proms chips on demand; for instance the one that he farkles up for a bog-standard all-OEM eleven-hundred S will be different from one he supplies for - say - an 1150R with no cat., a 3rd-party end-can and K&N-type foam air filters. So to say there's none left isn't really a problem.

But if you're mainly looking for more mid-range ooomph, that's what you'll get.

Regards from sunny Andalucía,

AL

Last edited by Alan Sykes; 11/21/17 09:19 AM.

This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1001319 - 11/21/17 12:08 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Strange glitch - this morning ( C.E.T. ) I had the usual e-mail reminding me of a response to a thread. But on this occasion the board link says it can't find the post, quoted as from member T.M. Roe:

"This is a very interesting thread.
What I find most interesting is the amount of time, effort and dollars it takes to get a boxer to perform like an average 600 GSXR........Not so sure that the juice is worth the squeeze."


To which my answer would be :

¿ Why should a BMW Boxer rider want his bike to feel like a 600 GSXR ?

AL


This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1001328 - 11/21/17 02:45 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Bert Remington Offline
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Alan -- after researching various offerings I chose the Tills kit at www.jt-c.com/index.php?cat=c7_BMW--R---F-Boxer.html because it was well-regarded and consisted of a complete ready-to-install kit. I'm in the middle of wiring modifications (remove previous owner's MotoLights, etc and install cornering lights, heated vest controller, etc) so haven't road-tested the injectors or, for that matter, the AF-XIED.

I concur that John's chip is apparently tailored to a specific motorcycle configuration which is why I included details like fuel octane.

I did not include the AF-XIED because when (if) I install John's chip I will bypass it. BTW from my perspective installing John's chip will be easier than the AF-XIED -- ECU is not much harder to access than O2 connector and you don't have any choices. I'm on my sixth wiring design for the AF-XIED (haven't cut any wires, just trial designs) because...choices smile. I think I've settled on one that allows removal of O2 sensor without fuel tank removal but it involves cutting all four sensor wires. Roger 04 RT's finding that the stranded wiring provides the atmospheric O2 feed to the sensor makes things a bit complicated for wire sealing purposes (basically you can't) so I'm using a plastic shield from a Ford Taurus (similar to the HES plastic shield) to provide weather protection.

The BMW looks interesting with fuel tank, etc removed. A friend said it looked like a wet cat. Good analogy.


2000 BMW R1100RT
2016 Royal Enfield Classic 500
#1001369 - 11/22/17 01:17 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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roger 04 rt Offline
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Bert,
Bosch supplies and recommends positaps for its universal connectors. Installing the AFXIED on an R1100RT/R/GS requires a tap of one white wire in the sensor bundle, a cut of the black wire and two positap connectors. All four wires still source O2 in a manner satisfactory to Bosch.

Do you plan to have a functioning O2 sensor in your chip/injector plan? And if so do you plan to test that the Motronic has enough adjustment headroom with chip and injectors installed (both initially add too much fuel that your Motronic will remove over time).

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 11/22/17 01:20 PM.
#1001403 - 11/22/17 08:42 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Bert,
The other thing you should consider is an LC-2 and R1200 Injector match up. The LC-2 gives you a wider range of AFRs, even allowing you to switch between two and the injectors add fuel that the LC-2 will hold in place. Here is someone who has done both and loves the results: http://advrider.com/index.php?threa...ed-for-bmw.749080/page-17#post-22147490.

I don't often recommend the LC-2 but since you have a bit of wiring with the AF-XIED, there's only about the same amount with an LC-2. There is a bit of programming though.

This gives you a solution with known fuel enhancement and the ability to measure what's going on.
Roger

#1001421 - 11/23/17 03:45 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Bert Remington Offline
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Roger -- thank you for the flattering response but I'm a rear-wheel-on-the-road measurement guy rather than a what-is-the-engine-doing measurement guy. I want to keep my MSD ignition modifications and my AF-XIED fuel-air modifications and my John's-chip whatever modifications separate. Sooo...no LC-2. But if you have a candidate R1100 with an LC-2 I will gladly loan you my John's-chip.

The MSD is a lark that I'm familiar with. WRT motorcycles I started early putting an SAENG CDI on my Honda CB750 (worked well except for timing errors caused by wear on the magnet rotor). I was building my own CDI for my Norton Commando but smartened up (this happens rarely even now) and sold the motorcycle (the buyer asked if there was anything he should do and I told him to drive looking for bags of gold on the road).

MSD ignition measurements: seat-of-the-pants.

AF-XIED fuel-air measurements: seat-of-the-pants.

John's-chip (if I do this next summer): remove MSD and/or AF-XIED; drive for two week so ECU long-term trim stabilizes; get rear wheel measurements at dynamometer shop (the Barona drag motorcycle guys will tell me where a good one is in San Diego); publish in this forum.

WRT O2 sensor, I will always retain this for all configurations. I will not use the CO2 potentiometer. I like feedback control systems, even ones as apparently crude as BMW's (abysmal A-to-D conversion for O2 sensor). BTW my early K100 had, as I'm sure you know, a vane MAF and I was always happy with its driveability through all conditions including walking it uphill in a drainage ditch when there was snow (country life is more appealing when you are young).

WRT Posi-Taps, I researched them and was not convinced so for this application I'm sticking with weather-protected crimp-style connectors. Yeah I know they are crude but I make them work reliably.


2000 BMW R1100RT
2016 Royal Enfield Classic 500
#1003748 - 01/17/18 12:03 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bert Remington]  
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Stoneman Offline
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John Gemi is on to something. It would be great if someone knowledgeable would partner with him to fine tune the chip. The stock engine leaves much room for performance improvement and it would be nice to achieve that improvement at the reasonable cost of his chip.


Rich Stone
Indianapolis
2004 BMW R1150RT Biarritz Blue
1978 BMW R100RS Cafe
All I want is a little more than I'll ever get.
#1003763 - 01/17/18 02:53 AM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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"¿ From where did you source your matched later-model injectors ? I've read on other forums about their improved spray-pattern."

Alan,

As an option for you on the injectors, Injector Rehab in New Jersey: Injector-Rehab

Keith Gibbons, the owner, has new (and refurbed) Bosch EV-14 injectors with the adapters and seals in a kit for $165 USD. It may be easier for you in the EU to get the kit from Tills considering shipping and duties from the US.

There is a very noticeable difference in the spray patterns, squirt vs mist.

I got a set from I-R a year ago and am very pleased with the components and service.


Old Fart Newbie
#1003786 - 01/17/18 02:30 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Bimmer-Biker]  
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Alan Sykes Offline
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Thanks Lowndes, yes it was tills.de who put me on to a supplier in Dortmund who sold the later broad-pattern sprayers at a price noticeable lower than simply ordering from the Greedy Berlin Pig, and thus I assume cheaper - because of reduced shipping costs - than ordering from the prestigious I-R people in the USA.

And Stoneman, you're right; "John Gemi is on to something". His chips transform the boxer motor's performance. Not by a gob-smacking amount, but enough to make the investment very well worth-while to achieve better response and fuel economy.

I think by now he's clued-up enough in his epromming techniques to be as knowledgeable about what he's trying to achieve as anybody else whose comments I've read in these and other forum pages.

Incidentally, i enjoyed my seven week Christmas holiday in the north-western UK - 28 days of rain in the whole month of December. But I did manage an afternoon dodging the ice and salt to have a spin out on the Rockster with its modded footpegs and lifted-up Roadster handlebar. But don't let anybody tell you that swapping out the Rockster footpegs kit for a set from a GS ( much lower and less scrinching on the knees ) is a doddle.

Brother, it ain't. It took a whole day in the motor engineers' workshop in sub-zero temps with the aid of a lathe, a reamer and other heavy hardware, plus the co-operation of two experienced mechanics, to variously mod things like the too-short braided brake lines, the side-stand loop to make it accessible again to the heel of a boot when coming to a stand-still, the piston rod for the rear brake, the gearshift link to the splined lever connection to the gearbox, etc., etc.

Not a job for the average afternoon wrencher, believe me...It may be easy on a Roadster, where the footpegs are less jacked-up, but certainly not on the Rockster.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

AL - now back in the warm sunshine of south-eastern Spain on the sandy Med coast.

Last edited by Alan Sykes; 01/17/18 02:43 PM. Reason: typos, as usual...

This is a list of the people I'd trust with my bike
#1003814 - 01/17/18 06:53 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Stoneman]  
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roger 04 rt Offline
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Originally Posted by Stoneman
John Gemi is on to something. It would be great if someone knowledgeable would partner with him to fine tune the chip. The stock engine leaves much room for performance improvement and it would be nice to achieve that improvement at the reasonable cost of his chip.



Actually the tuning/balance of the stock chip is quite good. If you use an LC-2 or AF-XIED to add 6-8% to the fueling, the bike is transformed by the Motronic itself, no need for brain surgery on the ECU.

I have asked John time and again to do a tuning chip that is only ignition timing advance above half throttle, coupled with an XIED. His target market seems to be the low cost segment, so he has not shown an interest since the cost would entail the chip plus an AF-XIED. The combination I’ve suggested would give the great running of a Lambda-shifted bike with the possibility of a bit more power on the top end.

#1003963 - 01/20/18 08:20 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt


Actually the tuning/balance of the stock chip is quite good. If you use an LC-2 or AF-XIED to add 6-8% to the fueling, the bike is transformed by the Motronic itself, no need for brain surgery on the ECU.

I have asked John time and again to do a tuning chip that is only ignition timing advance above half throttle, coupled with an XIED. His target market seems to be the low cost segment, so he has not shown an interest since the cost would entail the chip plus an AF-XIED. The combination I’ve suggested would give the great running of a Lambda-shifted bike with the possibility of a bit more power on the top end.




This helps me understand that it is not so much a chip issue. Am I correct in thinking It is the XIED that helps with the surging and smooths out the power?

Is making a chip to do what you suggest hard to do? If John wont do it who else can?


Rich Stone
Indianapolis
2004 BMW R1150RT Biarritz Blue
1978 BMW R100RS Cafe
All I want is a little more than I'll ever get.
#1003967 - 01/20/18 10:12 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: Stoneman]  
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Hi Rich, Not to barge in on Roger but all you need is the AF-XIED or a wideband sensor with LC-2 controller which provides the interface to the ECU and all will be well. I've been running an Innovate Motorsports LC-2 for at least 5 years on my '04 R1150RT (sold) and on my '93 R1100RSL and all is nothing short of perfect. Roger is the expert when it comes to fueling issues on these oilhead motorcycles. There is no need to modify the Motronic. I like the LC-2 because it has data log capabilities and over time I have sent Roger via e-mail data log info which he has used to help me troubleshoot my motorcycles. Last time I checked the LC-2 is available from Amazon which is where I obtained my units. I don't mean to imply there is anything wrong with an AF-XIED and it does use your existing narrow band O2 sensor which could be a plus.


James
'93 R1100RSL / '10 FJR1300A
#1004010 - 01/21/18 08:11 PM Re: Mod Chips? [Re: JamesW]  
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Stoneman Offline
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Thanks James. I appreciate your, Roger's and other's willingness to share their experiences and knowledge. I will look into the LC-2. If the two different systems are comparable in performance, which it sounds like they are, I would think about the easiest to install since I may be doing it myself. I'm not a wrench but can follow instructions or a Youtube video.


Rich Stone
Indianapolis
2004 BMW R1150RT Biarritz Blue
1978 BMW R100RS Cafe
All I want is a little more than I'll ever get.
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