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#1002673 - 12/23/17 05:31 PM Re: Annual Service and Cam Alignment [Re: PadG]  
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Limecreek Offline
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Originally Posted by PadG
Originally Posted by LAF
With three gears connecting the cams and cam chain I see no way chain stretch could make cam timing off. I mean after all that is what a cam chain tensioner is for. If you look at the pics you will see three gears it would have to jump a tooth to come out of time with each other.

I believe they are not set correctly from the factory.

Like I say if over the years I get another back that I did and it has moved, then I will need to step back and think about this in a different way.

Tensioner will just maintain tensions so that the chain don't skip a tooth, if the slack is excessive (as in no tensioner installed). When the chain stretch, the total length of the chain grows, and that is how the timing can change. Sure, the change will be a function of how much the chain has stretched.

No arguments (as you already know) about the timing being off from the factory.


The constant is TDC. With some stretch I can see the cam position slightly off as it relates to the piston position. Still do not believe I'll make the adjustment again in the next 70K miles or so - or at least I hope I will not have to.

Last edited by Limecreek; 12/23/17 05:32 PM.
#1002687 - 12/24/17 02:49 PM Re: Annual Service and Cam Alignment [Re: Limecreek]  
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PadG Offline
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Solon, OH
Originally Posted by Limecreek
Originally Posted by PadG
Originally Posted by LAF
With three gears connecting the cams and cam chain I see no way chain stretch could make cam timing off. I mean after all that is what a cam chain tensioner is for. If you look at the pics you will see three gears it would have to jump a tooth to come out of time with each other.

I believe they are not set correctly from the factory.

Like I say if over the years I get another back that I did and it has moved, then I will need to step back and think about this in a different way.

Tensioner will just maintain tensions so that the chain don't skip a tooth, if the slack is excessive (as in no tensioner installed). When the chain stretch, the total length of the chain grows, and that is how the timing can change. Sure, the change will be a function of how much the chain has stretched.

No arguments (as you already know) about the timing being off from the factory.


The constant is TDC. With some stretch I can see the cam position slightly off as it relates to the piston position. Still do not believe I'll make the adjustment again in the next 70K miles or so - or at least I hope I will not have to.

Originally Posted by Limecreek
Originally Posted by PadG
Originally Posted by LAF
With three gears connecting the cams and cam chain I see no way chain stretch could make cam timing off. I mean after all that is what a cam chain tensioner is for. If you look at the pics you will see three gears it would have to jump a tooth to come out of time with each other.

I believe they are not set correctly from the factory.

Like I say if over the years I get another back that I did and it has moved, then I will need to step back and think about this in a different way.

Tensioner will just maintain tensions so that the chain don't skip a tooth, if the slack is excessive (as in no tensioner installed). When the chain stretch, the total length of the chain grows, and that is how the timing can change. Sure, the change will be a function of how much the chain has stretched.

No arguments (as you already know) about the timing being off from the factory.


The constant is TDC. With some stretch I can see the cam position slightly off as it relates to the piston position. Still do not believe I'll make the adjustment again in the next 70K miles or so - or at least I hope I will not have to.

Not saying that you have to make adjustment, even at 70k. All that I am saying is that the thing that will affect cam timing is the so-called chain stretch (nothing actually stretches, but the chain will increase in length from use). Whether you need to make any adjustment at all is a function of how much the chain stretches, and I am fairly sure that nobody here can answer that question. The other unknown question is how much can the cam timing be off before it matters? Lee might have some ideas of that, since he has the hands-on experience with multiple wetheads. Having the adjustment slipping is a low probability, IMHO, but again Lee will be the best person to answer that from actual experience rather than just guessing! smile


Pad. Gajajiva, Solon OH.

2015 R1200RT (San Marino Blue Metallic)
#1002915 - 12/30/17 04:53 AM Re: Annual Service and Cam Alignment [Re: realshelby]  
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Yeeha! Stephen Offline
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Originally Posted by realshelby
Originally Posted by markgoodrich
I have people for that.

Oh, wait, Greg, you're my people!


Are you saying there will be a "Cam alignment Tech Days" at the Limestone Ranch?



You getting a petition up to have Greg do another "Austin Texas Tech Daze" ?

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=424372&page=1

Where do I sign?

Yeeeeeha!

ps: make sure there's a follow-up ride scheduled for the following day!

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Yeeha! Stephen
Deep in the Heaaaaarrrrt of Texaaaas
"Why eat a Burger when you can have Pie!" Miss Vicki 2002
#1002917 - 12/30/17 05:05 AM Re: Annual Service and Cam Alignment [Re: Limecreek]  
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Yeeha! Stephen Offline
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If you can find the #34, Spring 2017, issue of BMW Motorcycle Magazine, it has a nice photo article similar to Greg's and shows cam removal and shim adjustments. Also give the part #'s for the special tools BMW sells for the job.

http://bmwmcmag.com/shop/bmwmm34/

=8-)


Yeeha! Stephen
Deep in the Heaaaaarrrrt of Texaaaas
"Why eat a Burger when you can have Pie!" Miss Vicki 2002
#1002928 - 12/30/17 02:57 PM Re: Annual Service and Cam Alignment [Re: Yeeha! Stephen]  
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LittleBriar Online
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Tip of Michigan's Thumb
Originally Posted by Yeeha! Stephen
If you can find the #34, Spring 2017, issue of BMW Motorcycle Magazine, it has a nice photo article similar to Greg's and shows cam removal and shim adjustments. Also give the part #'s for the special tools BMW sells for the job.

http://bmwmcmag.com/shop/bmwmm34/

=8-)

Stephen, Thanks for the tip. I ordered the issue and also started a subscription. Looks like a nice magazine. Surprised I hadn't seen it before. Does the article you mentioned include adjusting the cam sensor and cam timing?


Steve
'16 R1200RT
#1002996 - 12/31/17 09:11 PM Re: Annual Service and Cam Alignment [Re: Yeeha! Stephen]  
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Limecreek Offline
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Could happen - just depends on my travel schedule in Feb/March. Not sure how much interest there is these days, but they were fun back in the day. :-)

Picture from the first one I held all the way back in 2003.
[Linked Image]

One in the middle 2009 - best attended.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

And the final one back in 2012.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Last edited by Limecreek; 12/31/17 09:11 PM.
#1003009 - 01/01/18 01:27 AM Re: Annual Service and Cam Alignment [Re: Limecreek]  
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realshelby Offline
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I made the 2012 Hottern' Hell Tech Daze! My second one. Maybe I ran everyone off?

Anyway, does the cam timing check have to be done on a cold engine? That might complicate doing them in a "tech daze" setting. Unless we do them Tuesday or Wednesday of this week..........

#1003011 - 01/01/18 03:12 AM Re: Annual Service and Cam Alignment [Re: realshelby]  
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LAF Offline
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I do not think heat has any bearing on cam alignment check, Really can think of no reason it would.

Thing is it is nice to check the valves while you are there so in that respect it would.

However I have held a garden hose on a few bikes in the center of the front of the motor, then the rear of the motor, and then the jugs after a time and the motor was cool enough in a hour or so to check valves. We set a large fan in front of them did the cam check and then the valves and the motor was cool to the touch.


Lee

17 Black GSW Low
#1004233 - 01/26/18 10:46 AM Re: Annual Service and Cam Alignment [Re: PadG]  
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LAF Offline
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So did my new 17 GS today at 56 miles.

All was well and no issues at all with cam timing.

Have to say the TDC tool really snapped into TDC on this one. I mean it was buried and really snapped when it found the hole.

Maybe they are getting the hang of this stuff


Of note on the valve check I was not real happy but we will see after we get some miles on it.

However since the motor wears tight my valve setting don't bode well for me.

ALL seem tight to me but as they say in spec is in spec,

Here that is:
L
F Intake 10 R Intake 11
F Exhaust 34 R Exhaust 35
R
F Intake 14 R Intake 13
F Exhaust 34 R Exhaust 35

Couple have no room so we will see. I am sure with the shim kit I have I can get through it when it needs it.

So the Recap:
15 RT 12,000 miles, Left off real bad, right off also. Cam sensor on.
16 GS 12,000 miles, Right side off pretty well and left side off. Cam sensor way out. Adjusted
16 RT 6000 miles, Right dead on, Left off ever so slightly, Adjusted. Cam Position Sensor on.
16 RT 12,000 miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor on.
15 GSA 12,000 Miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor on.
14 RT 18,000 Miles , Dead on both sides. Cam sensors on.
14 RT 13,000 Miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor on.
15 RT 87,000 Miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor was off. Adjusted
16 GSA 1,688 Miles Right dead on. Left off ever so slightly, Adjusted. Cam Position Sensor on.
17 GS 56 Miles Dead on both sides Cam Position Sensor right on.

That's my story and I am sticking to it.


Lee

17 Black GSW Low
#1004457 - 01/30/18 06:31 PM Re: Annual Service and Cam Alignment [Re: Limecreek]  
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Limecreek Offline
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Just as a final follow-up regarding performance gains as a result of the cam alignment - there is not any detectable (power/smoothness) or measurable (gas mileage) difference from my POV.

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