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#1002726 - 12/25/17 04:19 PM 2017 R1200RT Stability  
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On Saturday I took delivery of a 2017 R1200RTW. Put in a hundred fifty miles riding it home before rushing off for dinner and then a couple days’ trip to family. All I can say at the moment is WOW!, what a step up from the R1150T. However, I have as issue which will likely mean a return trip to the dealer. In preparation for that, here’s my concern:

I left the dealership in Rain mode (just happened to be in that setting). Within 5 miles I noticed that the handling was twitchy occasionally and that the bike seemed to wobble a bit left/right. My first reaction was, huh, fast steering—and that I needed to adapt. Switched to Road mode. Later on the highway, I noticed a couple times at 70-80 mph that buffeting created enough enough wobble for a fraction of a second to get my attention.

I don’t know the tires or pressure and don’t know if Mode is a factor, and won’t be back home till tomorrow. Have others had these types of issues? What should I look at or check?

Happy Holidays,
RB

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 12/25/17 04:27 PM.
#1002727 - 12/25/17 04:33 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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I won't tell you there cannot be something wrong. Do check your tire pressures.

But, I also think there is such a difference in the '04 RT and the new Wethead RT that it just might be how "responsive" the new one is. I came from an '04 RT also. That said, if your bike has the Continental tires, there is about half of your problem......

Congratulations!

Last edited by realshelby; 12/25/17 04:33 PM.
#1002728 - 12/25/17 04:42 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Thanks. I’m really impressed by the bike. And I’m willing to accept it may be me. Stay tuned ...

#1002729 - 12/25/17 04:46 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: realshelby]  
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if your bike came with Continental Tires, take it back to the dealer and tell them to put something else on. Mine road walked so bad when I got it I thought I had made a huge mistake. I went from an 1150RT too. Changes tires and now rides like it is on rails. I hate admitting this but sometimes when out in the country and no one around, I will ride for many miles in cruise with my hands in my lap...it is that stable. Tire pressures of 37-38 on front and 42 in the rear. I know things could happen but it sure is relaxing.

Last edited by Skywagon; 12/25/17 04:47 PM.

David
RT WET
#1002731 - 12/25/17 06:01 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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The funny thing is it feels fine handsfree. And nice quick responsive steering. But then a gust or disturbance once in a while and a bit of left right left that takes away your confidence in its stability. A small shake but it’s there.

I’ll check tires and pressure later today.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 12/25/17 06:02 PM.
#1002733 - 12/25/17 07:18 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Roger, when I first got my 14'RTW, I too experienced the exact thing you explain above ....("But then a gust or disturbance once in a while and a bit of left right left that takes away your confidence in its stability. A small shake but it’s there.").

It was the Continental tires that came with my bike. They were the worst tires I have ever ridden on. My bike was so unplanted, unstable, wind prone, etc., I thought I had made a terrible mistake with choice of bike after have an 1100RT and a 1150RT, both great bikes. I got rid of them with only 2,400 miles on them.

Changed over to Pirelli Angels A spec and they changed my bike into a total different piece of machinery. Loved it - corners like rails, stable on straights, smiles in my helmet.

Now using Roadtec 1's and feel the same.

So....like others have said, check your tires. They make a huge difference, at least for me.
good luck.

#1002739 - 12/25/17 11:47 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Michelin PR4 GT Front & Rear
Front 35 psi
Rear 44 psi

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 12/25/17 11:48 PM.
#1002744 - 12/26/17 02:06 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Roger, there was an almost identical post to yours in the other forum a couple of months back, and in that case the new owner checked everything, including tire pressures, before he was going to take it in to his dealer for a thorough check. In that case, the rear tire pressure was right on the recommended pressure of 42 psi, while the front was at 34 psi (BMW recommend 36 psi in manual). My recommendation to him was to get the front pressure up to the recommended level at the very least, but many of us ride at 40 psi front, which is what I suggested to him while he was at it. The response back was "wow! It's like riding a different bike!"

I am making the same suggestion to you! Get the front tire pressure to 40 psi, and take the bike out to see how that feels! 44psi is a little high for rear, but that shouldn't affect stability. Personally, I would drop that to 42.

Last edited by PadG; 12/26/17 02:06 PM.

Pad. Gajajiva, Solon OH.

2015 R1200RT (San Marino Blue Metallic)
#1002748 - 12/26/17 03:57 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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PadG (& everyone),
Thanks for that suggestion, I am going to take your advice and take a ride this afternoon.

I just got off the phone with the owner (and an experienced R1200rtw Rider) at the small dealer where I purchased who said exactly the same thing (almost). He said 38/42 but that 44 was okay. He further said that “every once in a rare while” he has to replace a front tire.

I’ll take the ride and post the results at 40psi/42psi.

#1002761 - 12/26/17 10:41 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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I brought the front pressure to 39/40 and went out for a 50 mile jaunt. That seems to have done the trick. The steering IS quick and nimble, but it also seems precise. I never would have guessed the difference 5 PSI would make. Next is a trip on the highways to see what 75+ feels like.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 12/26/17 10:46 PM.
#1002780 - 12/27/17 02:26 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Very good! That fits with all the feedback that I have had over the years. I had always ridden with the tires at 40/42 (Front/Rear), and had always taken the RT's handling characteristic very much for granted. You will be very satisfied with the high-speed performance also. Somehow my RT seem to get into the three digits speed at least once a year! No problems with grips in corners either. My '15 RT presently have the same tires as yours, and I frequently scraped the pegs on my rides.

Last edited by PadG; 12/27/17 02:29 PM.

Pad. Gajajiva, Solon OH.

2015 R1200RT (San Marino Blue Metallic)
#1002781 - 12/27/17 03:56 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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After verifying the right tire pressure, be sure to keep your arms loose as the steering responsiveness of the wethead RT likes a light touch. My '99 RT was so slow in steering I picked up the bad habit of ham fisted steering inputs and literally had my front end of my '15 hop up coming out of a tight turn when riding frisky. Had to relearn good steering control habits as this version of the RT steers more like a modern bike being close to the twitchy end of steering geometry spectrum. You'll notice that this RT has an OEM steering damper which is a sign the engineers wanted very responsive steering but added that bit to be sure things didn't get too twitchy.

Last edited by Paul De; 12/27/17 03:58 PM.

If the good old days were so damn good, why did we bother to invent modern times?

Most missed bike: Bultaco Sherpa T 326
#1002784 - 12/27/17 06:04 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Paul De]  
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Originally Posted by Paul De

After verifying the right tire pressure, be sure to keep your arms loose as the steering responsiveness of the wethead RT likes a light touch. My '99 RT was so slow in steering I picked up the bad habit of ham fisted steering inputs and literally had my front end of my '15 hop up coming out of a tight turn when riding frisky. Had to relearn good steering control habits as this version of the RT steers more like a modern bike being close to the twitchy end of steering geometry spectrum. You'll notice that this RT has an OEM steering damper which is a sign the engineers wanted very responsive steering but added that bit to be sure things didn't get too twitchy.



Hello Paul De

This is really great advise you have! There are times when I find myself getting a bit tense with my arms rather stiff while cutting things a bit close. I've found the best thing for me to do is to completely relax my arms and grip and flap my elbows like a little birdie. This gives the bike a chance to do its best and the ride is the smoothest.

I think that it is many techniques like this that enables us to ride smoothly even at an advanced age. When some of our abilities diminish our wisdom needs to increase.

]Dave

Last edited by Dave_zoom_zoom; 12/27/17 06:14 PM. Reason: an additional thought
#1002789 - 12/27/17 08:09 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Paul De]  
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Originally Posted by Paul De

After verifying the right tire pressure, be sure to keep your arms loose as the steering responsiveness of the wethead RT likes a light touch. My '99 RT was so slow in steering I picked up the bad habit of ham fisted steering inputs and literally had my front end of my '15 hop up coming out of a tight turn when riding frisky. Had to relearn good steering control habits as this version of the RT steers more like a modern bike being close to the twitchy end of steering geometry spectrum. You'll notice that this RT has an OEM steering damper which is a sign the engineers wanted very responsive steering but added that bit to be sure things didn't get too twitchy.


I got out for a fast highway ride today, passed 3 speed traps and happened to be at the proper speed each time I went by. The advice about a light touch seems good, I was starting to do that on my own.

In my case I’ve noticed that even at low speeds, a road or wind disturbance and a bit of heavy handedness can lead to a wiggle. It seems more prone to that on trailing throttle. I’ll give myself some more time to adapt and see how much is me and how much is the bike.

At this point it’s pretty easy to ride hands-free on cruise control. Also, the dealer is experienced on this model so as a precaution I’ll have him take it for a spin at the 600 mile service, which will come up quickly!

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 12/27/17 08:10 PM.
#1002807 - 12/28/17 05:40 AM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Going from a 2006 RT I did find the 2016 RTW more susceptible to wind at highway speed. Nothing bad but it just does not feel quite as planted as the '06, especially when passing an 18 wheeler. But I notice it on the interstate with any wind turbulence. I just suspect its part of the RTW and nothing that worries me. Not sure if this is the same issue you are having but I did notice the difference.


Ed Apelianbike
'16 R1200RTW - Platinum Bronze Metallic
'12 R1200GSA - Magma Red - (my 1150GS replacement)

All it takes is an open road and an open mind!
#1002834 - 12/28/17 06:46 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Also consider that at speed the BMW top box can induce a slight weave, especially if there is a cross wind. Nothing scary just is noticeable, especially if you are really moving. Most of the time I leave the top box off .

#1002839 - 12/28/17 07:32 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Exportman]  
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Originally Posted by Exportman
Also consider that at speed the BMW top box can induce a slight weave, especially if there is a cross wind. Nothing scary just is noticeable, especially if you are really moving. Most of the time I leave the top box off .


That has been written more than once. I have yet to find a situation where I get a weave or feeling of instability. I have the factory large top box. It has seen speeds near the limit of the bike to produce. I have ridden in some severe crosswinds on I-10 and in West Texas. Not saying a factor couldn't be found in a wind tunnel, but I have not seen it on this or the previous RT. Just my experience.

#1002848 - 12/28/17 10:47 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: realshelby]  
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Yes Terry, I can fully agree with you. I have never had a handling problem due to the 50 liter Top Case on my 2007 RT. It handled great at any speed and any load.
The 2018 RT with Metzler Z8 tires inflated to 36 psi front and 42 psi rear at a cold temperature of 60 degrees F (BMW’s idea of cold tire temperature), handle like they are glued to the road.
In 2,600 miles I have not detected any in-stability of any kind or any noises using these tires on my 2018 RT-LC. And if you have ever traveled with me, you know I am not exactly a slow rider (38 mpg).


Bernie
Jax, FL
2018 R1200RT, Alpinweiss, starting out fresh.
2007 R1200RT, Double Silver 188,700 Smiles, SOLD
2000 R1100RT, Opal 104,000 Smiles, SOLD
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#1002860 - 12/29/17 02:05 AM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Paul De]  
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Originally Posted by Paul De

After verifying the right tire pressure, be sure to keep your arms loose as the steering responsiveness of the wethead RT likes a light touch. My '99 RT was so slow in steering I picked up the bad habit of ham fisted steering inputs and literally had my front end of my '15 hop up coming out of a tight turn when riding frisky. Had to relearn good steering control habits as this version of the RT steers more like a modern bike being close to the twitchy end of steering geometry spectrum. You'll notice that this RT has an OEM steering damper which is a sign the engineers wanted very responsive steering but added that bit to be sure things didn't get too twitchy.

I concur. I went from a 1999 RT to a 2015 wethead R, and the difference in handling is remarkable. The wethead is a real pleasure in the corners. It feels more nimble and responsive. At the same time it is the most stable bike I have ridden. On a straight stretch of road, I can set the cruise control and take my hands off the bars forever it feels like. Very slight weight shifts are sufficient to keep it on track. You can even take gentle corners with no-hands. My last RT had a tendency to pull to one side, but even after compensating for the pull, I was never comfortable with my hands very far from the grips. In comparison, the 2015 feels like it is on rails. The throttle response on the 2015 definitely requires respect. I have had the front wheel come off the ground with just a moderately aggressive start from a toll booth.


Will

2015 R1200R Cordoba Blue (current)
1999 R1100RT Tundra Green
1987 R100RT Grey
1970 R60/5 Black w/white pin stripes
196? Honda 305 Super Hawk
195? Sears Allstate 50 cc Moped
#1002878 - 12/29/17 04:10 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Bernie]  
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I'm with Bernie and Terry on the large top case and non-wet head stability issues at any speed due to the top case. I'm one of the oddballs you see who typically has the top case on and no side cases (unless I'm traveling). As such, my top case has been exposed to everything road and speed wise without hiccup or stability issues. The side cases take up more room in the garage - so they stay off the bike. After being endlessly teased by a gentleman from Perry, I have begun to use one of my soft-tail rear bags more often nowadays. Not that doing so has stopped the playground teasing from That Big GSA riding Bully in GA. I guess as the song says, 'The Devil went down to Georgia . . . " wave

But I digress . . .

One thing that may be worth considering for owners of the new RTW's that the the new RTW suspension may be transmitting MORE road feel than your previous model. I noted a very similar thing when I went from factory ESA to Wilbur's. Suddenly I was getting much more road feedback and it was unnerving at first.

Last edited by workin' them angels; 12/29/17 04:12 PM.

Workin' Them Angels . . .overtime
06 R12RT

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#1002879 - 12/29/17 04:19 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Terry


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#1002889 - 12/29/17 09:26 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Bernie]  
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Originally Posted by Bernie
Yes Terry, I can fully agree with you. I have never had a handling problem due to the 50 liter Top Case on my 2007 RT. It handled great at any speed and any load.
The 2018 RT with Metzler Z8 tires inflated to 36 psi front and 42 psi rear at a cold temperature of 60 degrees F (BMW’s idea of cold tire temperature), handle like they are glued to the road.
In 2,600 miles I have not detected any in-stability of any kind or any noises using these tires on my 2018 RT-LC. And if you have ever traveled with me, you know I am not exactly a slow rider (38 mpg).


Too bad we’re at opposite ends of the state. Was your bike delivered with Metzler Z8 tires? I wonder why bmw changed them from one year to the next.

I test drove a 2018 at another dealer a couple weeks ago and didn’t notice any wiggle at all.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 12/29/17 09:31 PM.
#1002891 - 12/29/17 09:51 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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BMW seems to have a couple of 'oem' tire suppliers. 2 friends bought new 2115 RT’s. One had PR4'S the other, Metzlers. So is it just what the factory has on the line at the time OR are bikes shipped to the dealer without tires and the dealer is allotted a sun to put shoes on the bike when they assemble it?


Workin' Them Angels . . .overtime
06 R12RT

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#1002892 - 12/29/17 10:07 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
Originally Posted by Bernie
Yes Terry, I can fully agree with you. I have never had a handling problem due to the 50 liter Top Case on my 2007 RT. It handled great at any speed and any load.
The 2018 RT with Metzler Z8 tires inflated to 36 psi front and 42 psi rear at a cold temperature of 60 degrees F (BMW’s idea of cold tire temperature), handle like they are glued to the road.
In 2,600 miles I have not detected any in-stability of any kind or any noises using these tires on my 2018 RT-LC. And if you have ever traveled with me, you know I am not exactly a slow rider (38 mpg).


Too bad we’re at opposite ends of the state. Was your bike delivered with Metzler Z8 tires? I wonder why bmw changed them from one year to the next.

I test drove a 2018 at another dealer a couple weeks ago and didn’t notice any wiggle at all.


My 2018 was delivered with the Metzler Z8’s which is a strange thing anyway, as Metzler’s newest tires are the RoadTec01 which are a replacement for the Z8. But I guess inventory at the factory has to be used up.
I am going for a ride tomorrow and decided to increase my front tire air pressure to 40 psi, to see what I have been missing.
Roger please understand that after wearing out several Pilot Road 4’s, including the heavyweight compounds I have never been a big fan of the Michelin tires.
I rather have the Pirelli Angel GT, with A compound. They don’t last as long as the Michelin’s, but they feel more planted.


Bernie
Jax, FL
2018 R1200RT, Alpinweiss, starting out fresh.
2007 R1200RT, Double Silver 188,700 Smiles, SOLD
2000 R1100RT, Opal 104,000 Smiles, SOLD
BMW-MOA, BMW-RA,
AMA, BMW-NEF,
#1002897 - 12/29/17 11:40 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
In my case I’ve noticed that even at low speeds, a road or wind disturbance and a bit of heavy handedness can lead to a wiggle. It seems more prone to that on trailing throttle.


Unlike your oilhead, the wethead RT has a steering damper, to go with its steeper fork rake. I'm starting to wonder whether yours could be defective (they must have put it on there for a reason, right?). I haven't experienced any of the issues on my '15 that you're experiencing on your new bike. It is on PR4 GTs, though.


"Dry-Town" Crew, San Diego
'15 R1200RT
'12 Kawasaki KLX250S
'04 R1150RT (gone)
'02 Suzuki V-Strom (gone)
#1002902 - 12/30/17 12:55 AM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Bill_Walker]  
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Well, that could be possible, steering dampers will fail.


Bernie
Jax, FL
2018 R1200RT, Alpinweiss, starting out fresh.
2007 R1200RT, Double Silver 188,700 Smiles, SOLD
2000 R1100RT, Opal 104,000 Smiles, SOLD
BMW-MOA, BMW-RA,
AMA, BMW-NEF,
#1002924 - 12/30/17 01:49 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Good point regarding the steering damper. I didn't know there was one until a few days ago when my cousin (owns a 2016 R1200RT with PR4s up in MA) pointed it out.

I've inspected its attachment to the steering and that seems fine and have sat of the back of the bike and checked for fluid resistance. The damping is there but I don't have any way to know how much or little there should be. It seems okay though.

Since I put 10 miles on a 2018 prior to purchasing the 2017 (from another dealer due to the first dealer not having a 2017), I can say that I didn't notice any out-of-the-ordinary manners. I'm going to check today what tires are on the 2018.

I've been out riding most days since I got the bike and thoroughly enjoy it. I will eventually figure out whether this over-quickness in the steering/wiggle is just me and the bike as a pair, or the tires, or whatever. Thanks for the ideas.

#1002927 - 12/30/17 02:42 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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I just heard from the 2018 RT dealer, the tires I test rode were Metzeler Roadtec Z8.

#1002934 - 12/30/17 04:28 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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My 2015 came with Metzelers. While never alarming me it's always been a bit sensitive to wind. I just got Pilot Road 4s and a lot of that is gone but I will now try the higher pressure in the front. As a side note my bike vibrated horribly after getting my new tires so I stopped and notice the front wheel had no balancing weights. Guess I should have done a better pre flight after service.


2015 R1200RT (Current)
2 R1200Rs
K1200RS
Harley Superglide (should have kept her)
R1100R
V40 Sabre
V45 Magna
2 CX500s
#1002949 - 12/30/17 11:42 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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My 2017 came with Z8's. Compared to the 99 R1100RT I used to have, the wethead is a bit twitchy at slower speeds. But the faster it goes, the more stable it seems. It doesn't seem to be any more sensitive to crosswinds than the 1100 was. I try to run the recommended 36/42, but I might experiment with the front a bit based on what you all are reporting.


Dave
#1002969 - 12/31/17 02:33 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Bernie]  
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Originally Posted by Bernie
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
Originally Posted by Bernie
Yes Terry, I can fully agree with you. I have never had a handling problem due to the 50 liter Top Case on my 2007 RT. It handled great at any speed and any load.
The 2018 RT with Metzler Z8 tires inflated to 36 psi front and 42 psi rear at a cold temperature of 60 degrees F (BMW’s idea of cold tire temperature), handle like they are glued to the road.
In 2,600 miles I have not detected any in-stability of any kind or any noises using these tires on my 2018 RT-LC. And if you have ever traveled with me, you know I am not exactly a slow rider (38 mpg).


Too bad we’re at opposite ends of the state. Was your bike delivered with Metzler Z8 tires? I wonder why bmw changed them from one year to the next.

I test drove a 2018 at another dealer a couple weeks ago and didn’t notice any wiggle at all.


My 2018 was delivered with the Metzler Z8’s which is a strange thing anyway, as Metzler’s newest tires are the RoadTec01 which are a replacement for the Z8. But I guess inventory at the factory has to be used up.
I am going for a ride tomorrow and decided to increase my front tire air pressure to 40 psi, to see what I have been missing.
Roger please understand that after wearing out several Pilot Road 4’s, including the heavyweight compounds I have never been a big fan of the Michelin tires.
I rather have the Pirelli Angel GT, with A compound. They don’t last as long as the Michelin’s, but they feel more planted.


Ok here is the results of increasing the front tire pressure from 36 psi in a 60 degree garage to 40 psi.
I rode 200 miles in 46 F degree weather (overcast and moist) of lots of different roads and different road surfaces, new, old, rough, gouged, sandy, dirty, concrete and curvy roads. I rode at lots of different speeds as I always do, including double of some speed limits.
NO noticeable difference, except when I pushed the bike out of the garage in the morning, it felt a little easier.
I will keep it at the higher pressure, as it may help with how fast the tires wear, but my 2018 RT is rock steady, even in blasts from 18 wheelers coming the other way or in drafts at interstate speeds+.
As of side winds, we don't get a lot of real bad weather here in Florida, but it is as stable as the old 2007 RT in my opinion.
By the way I did test ride a 2017 before buying the 2018 and I didn't notice anything strange with it's handling. I don't remember which tires it had, but it had less then a 1000 miles on the clock.
The only thing I can think of is maybe someone forgot to tighten all the fasteners after the assembled the bike at the dealer. My 2007 was delivered with loose handle bar bolts.


Bernie
Jax, FL
2018 R1200RT, Alpinweiss, starting out fresh.
2007 R1200RT, Double Silver 188,700 Smiles, SOLD
2000 R1100RT, Opal 104,000 Smiles, SOLD
BMW-MOA, BMW-RA,
AMA, BMW-NEF,
#1002971 - 12/31/17 02:57 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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My '15 RT came with PR4 GTs and I would not really call the handling twitchy, but very responsive, particularly compared to my '99RT. Aside from something being off with the tires or Telelever components, there is a relative experience and preference to the steering characteristics. It took me a while to adjust to the responsiveness on my wethead but I always wished my '99 was a bit more flickable and got that in spades on '15 RT.

For me any perceived stability issues I traced back to me and my accumulated bad habits, like a death grip when riding frisky, and in general riding too stiff in my waist shoulders and arms. Once I began to trust that the new RT would not do anything scary like a tank slapper on deceleration or head shake on acceleration, and just relaxed and used a light touch on the bars my bike rewarded me with unflappable stability. The one caution is if the ESA is set to soft damping, the bike is very under damped and handling characteristics as you would suspect suffer. Sedate put-put riding is the rule when the ESA is set to soft.


If the good old days were so damn good, why did we bother to invent modern times?

Most missed bike: Bultaco Sherpa T 326
#1002973 - 12/31/17 03:27 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Bernie]  
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Originally Posted by Bernie
Originally Posted by Bernie
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
Originally Posted by Bernie
Yes Terry, I can fully agree with you. I have never had a handling problem due to the 50 liter Top Case on my 2007 RT. It handled great at any speed and any load.
The 2018 RT with Metzler Z8 tires inflated to 36 psi front and 42 psi rear at a cold temperature of 60 degrees F (BMW’s idea of cold tire temperature), handle like they are glued to the road.
In 2,600 miles I have not detected any in-stability of any kind or any noises using these tires on my 2018 RT-LC. And if you have ever traveled with me, you know I am not exactly a slow rider (38 mpg).


Too bad we’re at opposite ends of the state. Was your bike delivered with Metzler Z8 tires? I wonder why bmw changed them from one year to the next.

I test drove a 2018 at another dealer a couple weeks ago and didn’t notice any wiggle at all.


My 2018 was delivered with the Metzler Z8’s which is a strange thing anyway, as Metzler’s newest tires are the RoadTec01 which are a replacement for the Z8. But I guess inventory at the factory has to be used up.
I am going for a ride tomorrow and decided to increase my front tire air pressure to 40 psi, to see what I have been missing.
Roger please understand that after wearing out several Pilot Road 4’s, including the heavyweight compounds I have never been a big fan of the Michelin tires.
I rather have the Pirelli Angel GT, with A compound. They don’t last as long as the Michelin’s, but they feel more planted.


Ok here is the results of increasing the front tire pressure from 36 psi in a 60 degree garage to 40 psi.
I rode 200 miles in 46 F degree weather (overcast and moist) of lots of different roads and different road surfaces, new, old, rough, gouged, sandy, dirty, concrete and curvy roads. I rode at lots of different speeds as I always do, including double of some speed limits.
NO noticeable difference, except when I pushed the bike out of the garage in the morning, it felt a little easier.
I will keep it at the higher pressure, as it may help with how fast the tires wear, but my 2018 RT is rock steady, even in blasts from 18 wheelers coming the other way or in drafts at interstate speeds+.
As of side winds, we don't get a lot of real bad weather here in Florida, but it is as stable as the old 2007 RT in my opinion.
By the way I did test ride a 2017 before buying the 2018 and I didn't notice anything strange with it's handling. I don't remember which tires it had, but it had less then a 1000 miles on the clock.
The only thing I can think of is maybe someone forgot to tighten all the fasteners after the assembled the bike at the dealer. My 2007 was delivered with loose handle bar bolts.


Interesting ambient temperature differences, since I do not have a garage my temperature checks have always been taken at whatever the outside ambient air temperature is. In my case, where I live would always result in an increase in temperature & pressure during the ride. In your ride the tire temperature went from 60°F to 46°F for a small amount of time. I think I recall you being able to monitor tire pressures, if so, did you happen to get a reading during the ride after the tires heated up? If not, perhaps in two weeks on the way to Davisboro, Just curious and thanks for the write up.

Thanks

Terry


Terry

Perry, GA
#1002976 - 12/31/17 03:47 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: terryofperry]  
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Terry, The reason I use 60 F Degree as an ambient temperature to set my cold tire pressure, is because the BMW computer or what ever it is that converts the tire pressure readings of TPS on the bike into the readout in the dash, adjusts those pressures to a cold tire temperature setting of 60 F Degrees. So if I adjust the pressure to 40 PSI at a ambient temp of 40 F, it will as a low pressure on the read out, while the sam cold tire at 80 F ambient at 40 PSI will read high. A little confusing and twisted.
Yes, I actually have by default my tire pressures displayed and with in a few miles the readings stayed between 39 and 41 psi for the front tire and 41-43 for the rear tire.
I have no clue how I will be able to check and adjust my cold tire pressure, once the winter is over, as then the temperature in my garage will be between 80 and 110 F. But I think I will just do what I always do and check and set them for the coldest morning temperature of the week and do it before the sun warms up the tire. We will find out how BMW will adjust to the warmer then average German temps, I just hope it doesn't void the warranty. LOL :-)

By the way Roger what is your tire pressure read out telling you as you ride the bike?


Bernie
Jax, FL
2018 R1200RT, Alpinweiss, starting out fresh.
2007 R1200RT, Double Silver 188,700 Smiles, SOLD
2000 R1100RT, Opal 104,000 Smiles, SOLD
BMW-MOA, BMW-RA,
AMA, BMW-NEF,
#1002977 - 12/31/17 03:58 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Bernie]  
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Originally Posted by Bernie

Terry, The reason I use 60 F Degree as an ambient temperature to set my cold tire pressure, is because the BMW computer or what ever it is that converts the tire pressure readings of TPS on the bike into the readout in the dash, adjusts those pressures to a cold tire temperature setting of 60 F Degrees. So if I adjust the pressure to 40 PSI at a ambient temp of 40 F, it will as a low pressure on the read out, while the sam cold tire at 80 F ambient at 40 PSI will read high. A little confusing and twisted.
Yes, I actually have by default my tire pressures displayed and with in a few miles the readings stayed between 39 and 41 psi for the front tire and 41-43 for the rear tire.
I have no clue how I will be able to check and adjust my cold tire pressure, once the winter is over, as then the temperature in my garage will be between 80 and 110 F. But I think I will just do what I always do and check and set them for the coldest morning temperature of the week and do it before the sun warms up the tire. We will find out how BMW will adjust to the warmer then average German temps, I just hope it doesn't void the warranty. LOL :-)

By the way Roger what is your tire pressure read out telling you as you ride the bike?


Afternoon Bernie

Your tire pressures are referenced to 20°c (68°f) not 60°f.


D.R. ___
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#1002978 - 12/31/17 04:04 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Thanks for the explanation Bernie, silly me to think BMW would want the rider to know the actual tire pressure during a ride, sarcastically speaking of course, glad I do not have that system.

Be well, see ya in two weeks.

Terry


Terry

Perry, GA
#1002979 - 12/31/17 04:05 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: dirtrider]  
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Originally Posted by dirtrider
Originally Posted by Bernie

Terry, The reason I use 60 F Degree as an ambient temperature to set my cold tire pressure, is because the BMW computer or what ever it is that converts the tire pressure readings of TPS on the bike into the readout in the dash, adjusts those pressures to a cold tire temperature setting of 60 F Degrees. So if I adjust the pressure to 40 PSI at a ambient temp of 40 F, it will as a low pressure on the read out, while the sam cold tire at 80 F ambient at 40 PSI will read high. A little confusing and twisted.
Yes, I actually have by default my tire pressures displayed and with in a few miles the readings stayed between 39 and 41 psi for the front tire and 41-43 for the rear tire.
I have no clue how I will be able to check and adjust my cold tire pressure, once the winter is over, as then the temperature in my garage will be between 80 and 110 F. But I think I will just do what I always do and check and set them for the coldest morning temperature of the week and do it before the sun warms up the tire. We will find out how BMW will adjust to the warmer then average German temps, I just hope it doesn't void the warranty. LOL :-)

By the way Roger what is your tire pressure read out telling you as you ride the bike?


Afternoon Bernie

Your tire pressures are referenced to 20°c (68°f) not 60°f.

Thank you for the correction and info, I somehow remembered something around 60 or so.
Is there somewhere a table or chart that would tell me what the pressure would be at different temperatures?
Will the moisture percentage mess that up?


Bernie
Jax, FL
2018 R1200RT, Alpinweiss, starting out fresh.
2007 R1200RT, Double Silver 188,700 Smiles, SOLD
2000 R1100RT, Opal 104,000 Smiles, SOLD
BMW-MOA, BMW-RA,
AMA, BMW-NEF,
#1002980 - 12/31/17 04:12 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: terryofperry]  
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Originally Posted by terryofperry
Thanks for the explanation Bernie, silly me to think BMW would want the rider to know the actual tire pressure during a ride, sarcastically speaking of course, glad I do not have that system.

Be well, see ya in two weeks.

Terry


I know Terry it initially sounds strange, but on my old 2007 I had the Garmin TPS installed with the Garmin Zumo 590 and in the hotter month or during more spirited rides I would see really high temperatures,even when set to the normal cold temperatures. I remember seeing pressures in excess of 50-55 psi on the rear wheel. But after a stop like lunch or so they would drop back down to a normal range.
BMW probable does this to keep folks from being alarmed about high readings.
The main thing is that it shows if there is a sudden or gradual loss of pressure due to a puncture, as that can become a safety issue. As we saw during the last FART ride.
See you on the 13th of January.
Happy New Year to all!


Bernie
Jax, FL
2018 R1200RT, Alpinweiss, starting out fresh.
2007 R1200RT, Double Silver 188,700 Smiles, SOLD
2000 R1100RT, Opal 104,000 Smiles, SOLD
BMW-MOA, BMW-RA,
AMA, BMW-NEF,
#1002981 - 12/31/17 04:21 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Bernie]  
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Originally Posted by Bernie

Thank you for the correction and info, I somehow remembered something around 60 or so.
Is there somewhere a table or chart that would tell me what the pressure would be at different temperatures?
Will the moisture percentage mess that up?


Afternoon Bernie

Yes, there are a number of PSI per degree (F) or (C) charts but the easy way to remember it is "about" 1 psi change per 10°f of (tire) temp change (so 40 psi @ 68°f would be 41 psi @ 78°f)

Moisture content will effect it slightly but so little that you won't be able to measure it with a common gauge or TPS sensor.


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#1002983 - 12/31/17 04:29 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: dirtrider]  
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Thank you D. R.
This will come in handy done the road, as things warm up.
Happy New Year!


Bernie
Jax, FL
2018 R1200RT, Alpinweiss, starting out fresh.
2007 R1200RT, Double Silver 188,700 Smiles, SOLD
2000 R1100RT, Opal 104,000 Smiles, SOLD
BMW-MOA, BMW-RA,
AMA, BMW-NEF,
#1002987 - 12/31/17 05:03 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: dirtrider]  
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Originally Posted by dirtrider
Originally Posted by Bernie

Thank you for the correction and info, I somehow remembered something around 60 or so.
Is there somewhere a table or chart that would tell me what the pressure would be at different temperatures?
Will the moisture percentage mess that up?


Afternoon Bernie

Yes, there are a number of PSI per degree (F) or (C) charts but the easy way to remember it is "about" 1 psi change per 10°f of (tire) temp change (so 40 psi @ 68°f would be 41 psi @ 78°f)

Moisture content will effect it slightly but so little that you won't be able to measure it with a common gauge or TPS sensor.


[Linked Image]


Brilliant! Thanks DR (and a chilly Good Morning to you!) With several TPS systems in use between many of us, it can get a little confusing for a simple Hoosier trying to keep all these numbers straight. I remember trying to explain to Jerry how his TPS conversion worked on his 2015 RT will little success - and I even used small words. Conversely, I have the FOBO system and it allows you to toggle between actual current PSI and the 'adjusted' psi based on ambient temp.

Having a simple rule of thumb is great and I predict this info will shorten many a coffee and lunch stop discussions on tire temps and the like.


Workin' Them Angels . . .overtime
06 R12RT

The point of the journey is not to arrive...

[I'm the handsome one on the right, Gray Bastard on the left and Jerry in the middle.]
#1002992 - 12/31/17 06:06 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Here's a thread that goes on quite a bit about tire pressure temps, ambient temp, and TPM's. I think the bottom line in this thread was to follow the advice in the manual and make sure you set the pressure you want with the tires cold, regardless of the current ambient temp.


Steve
'16 R1200RT
#1002994 - 12/31/17 07:05 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Bernie]  
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Originally Posted by Bernie

Terry, The reason I use 60 F Degree as an ambient temperature to set my cold tire pressure, is because the BMW computer or what ever it is that converts the tire pressure readings of TPS on the bike into the readout in the dash, adjusts those pressures to a cold tire temperature setting of 60 F Degrees. So if I adjust the pressure to 40 PSI at a ambient temp of 40 F, it will as a low pressure on the read out, while the sam cold tire at 80 F ambient at 40 PSI will read high. A little confusing and twisted.
Yes, I actually have by default my tire pressures displayed and with in a few miles the readings stayed between 39 and 41 psi for the front tire and 41-43 for the rear tire.
I have no clue how I will be able to check and adjust my cold tire pressure, once the winter is over, as then the temperature in my garage will be between 80 and 110 F. But I think I will just do what I always do and check and set them for the coldest morning temperature of the week and do it before the sun warms up the tire. We will find out how BMW will adjust to the warmer then average German temps, I just hope it doesn't void the warranty. LOL :-)

By the way Roger what is your tire pressure read out telling you as you ride the bike?


The TPM display is showing my desired (target) pressure. The manual explains how to do it. Take the bike for a ride, note the pressure. Say the display said 36 but you want 38. You need to add 2 psi. Then measure with your gauge. It reads 39. Add two psi to 41 psi. Go for a ride, the display shows 38 psi. A little convoluted but it works perfectly and is always with 1 psi later, cold or hot.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 12/31/17 07:06 PM.
#1003045 - 01/01/18 11:51 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Dave,

Being -10F here today, it's good to know that 43F and 49R works for all temperatures below 0F. A lesson learned as a teenager was that messing with tire pressure when ambient temperatures are well below zero is fraught with peril. Moisture in the compressed can very well freeze the tire valve open and a low tire becomes a flat tire

Last edited by Paul De; 01/01/18 11:52 PM.

If the good old days were so damn good, why did we bother to invent modern times?

Most missed bike: Bultaco Sherpa T 326
#1003051 - 01/02/18 04:54 AM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Happy New Year one and all.

Hey Paul - you have us Hoosiers beat by a whopping 5 degrees or so. Obviously, I didn't make the chart, so - as those who know me best already know- "I know nothing". I apologize for posting the chart - i thought a visual might be helpful, but I don't want to sidetrack the discussion. Happy to discus tires, pressure etc in a separate thread if someone ends up starting one.

While frigid here, I came very close to riding today - but just too much snow/ice scattered around.


Workin' Them Angels . . .overtime
06 R12RT

The point of the journey is not to arrive...

[I'm the handsome one on the right, Gray Bastard on the left and Jerry in the middle.]
#1003056 - 01/02/18 01:17 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Indy Dave]  
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It was a joke actually. Maybe I was a bit too dry in my humor and there is no way would I ride at this temp unless there was some very compelling reason to do so. The chart is awesome and confirms the 1 PSI for ever 10F rule of thumb at reasonable temps and pressures of interest. If I ever find myself riding to Dawson in winter...Ok, leaving the snarky comments alone

Last edited by Paul De; 01/02/18 01:30 PM.

If the good old days were so damn good, why did we bother to invent modern times?

Most missed bike: Bultaco Sherpa T 326
#1003071 - 01/02/18 04:13 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Paul De]  
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Morning ___

Just keep in mind that Bernie asked "Is there somewhere a table or chart that would tell me what the pressure would be at different temperatures?" he didn't ask at what temp you should stop adding more air.

That tire inflation chart stops at 0°f so the tires don't end up being inflated over the max tire pressure rating as they come up to operating temps not because the universal gas law changes at 0°f.


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#1003074 - 01/02/18 04:56 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Back to my original issue, which I’ll now describe as weaving (as opposed to wobbling), meaning that the handle bars don’t move but the bike turns left right left right briskly as if I was throwing my weight around. It happened at speeds around 35-40 mph (neutral throttle, never when accelerating) and also at 75+.

Originally my front tire was 34-35 psi. (I wasn’t smart enough to use the TPM before adjusting and I lost a bit of air.) and the rear tire was 44 psi. Last week I adjusted the front to 39/40 psi and the rear to 42 psi. The tendency toward weaving was better, nearly gone.

I’ve been out riding several move times since, and decided to see what would happen if I lowered the front pressure to 36 psi but ended up at 35. I went for a ride and pushed the bike a bit and now have wear on two-thirds of tread surface. I detected weave only once (in a quick turn) and it was slight.

I’ve ruled out that I’m imagining this, wink but not fully ruled out that it’s just me interfaced to the bike. Is it possible that the tires are behaving differently as I’ve scrubbed them up?

Edit: I have also run the spring preload setting from one rider to two with gear a couple times to make sure it was in the correct position. At full preload (two with gear) but just me (200#) the bike feels a touch less stable.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 01/02/18 05:00 PM.
#1003075 - 01/02/18 05:08 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
Back to my original issue, which I’ll now describe as weaving (as opposed to wobbling), meaning that the handle bars don’t move but the bike turns left right left right briskly as if I was throwing my weight around. It happened at speeds around 35-40 mph (neutral throttle, never when accelerating) and also at 75+.

Originally my front tire was 34-35 psi. (I wasn’t smart enough to use the TPM before adjusting and I lost a bit of air.) and the rear tire was 44 psi. Last week I adjusted the front to 39/40 psi and the rear to 42 psi. The tendency toward weaving was better, nearly gone.

I’ve been out riding several move times since, and decided to see what would happen if I lowered the front pressure to 36 psi but ended up at 35. I went for a ride and pushed the bike a bit and now have wear on two-thirds of tread surface. I detected weave only once (in a quick turn) and it was slight.

I’ve ruled out that I’m imagining this, wink but not fully ruled out that it’s just me interfaced to the bike. Is it possible that the tires are behaving differently as I’ve scrubbed them up?

Edit: I have also run the spring preload setting from one rider to two with gear a couple times to make sure it was in the correct position. At full preload (two with gear) but just me (200#) the bike feels a touch less stable.


Afternoon Roger

I guess we should have asked this earlier-- Is JUST the bike weaving with bars holding still or does it feed back into the handlebars & cause those to move (or you can feel a change in bar resistance in cadence with the weaving)?


D.R. ___
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#1003077 - 01/02/18 05:16 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: dirtrider]  
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Originally Posted by Paul De
It was a joke actually. Maybe I was a bit too dry in my humor and there is no way would I ride at this temp unless there was some very compelling reason to do so. The chart is awesome and confirms the 1 PSI for ever 10F rule of thumb at reasonable temps and pressures of interest. If I ever find myself riding to Dawson in winter...Ok, leaving the snarky comments alone


Paul - Sorry, it went right over my head - which again shouldn't be surprising. computer dopeslap One of the nice things about this site is that we can joke with one another. One of the reasons I didn't quite get it was that I'd been having a side conversation about ambient tire temps and the effects Full Moons, ocean currents, artificial hips and chasing Bernie have on tire pressure. AND Universal Gas Law. Frankly, it - like so many things - went mostly over my head and left a fine Southern Gentleman to give up on making his point and instead opted to send me chasing my tail as he claimed my GPS included a volt meter. wave computer

The silly reason I would ride if the roads allowed is that I've not been able to for the last Month, so that itch is getting a bit distracting. thumbsup read bike I've been putting off some electrical work on the bike hoping to ride a little, but its going to be a week before we see temps above freezing here, so I might as well start playing the Wichita Lineman burnout spittake





Originally Posted by dirtrider
Morning ___

Just keep in mind that Bernie asked "Is there somewhere a table or chart that would tell me what the pressure would be at different temperatures?" he didn't ask at what temp you should stop adding more air.

That tire inflation chart stops at 0°f so the tires don't end up being inflated over the max tire pressure rating as they come up to operating temps not because the universal gas law changes at 0°f.


Thanks for pointing that out, D.T. My thinking went along those lines after Paul mentioned the static psi pressure - I'd failed to look that closely at the chart and didn't notice that when I first posted it. But that makes perfect sense (to me anyway)!


Mongo is only pawn . . . .


EDIT: Roger: Sorry our posts overlapped.




Last edited by workin' them angels; 01/02/18 05:28 PM.

Workin' Them Angels . . .overtime
06 R12RT

The point of the journey is not to arrive...

[I'm the handsome one on the right, Gray Bastard on the left and Jerry in the middle.]
#1003083 - 01/02/18 07:08 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: dirtrider]  
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Originally Posted by dirtrider
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
Back to my original issue, which I’ll now describe as weaving (as opposed to wobbling), meaning that the handle bars don’t move but the bike turns left right left right briskly as if I was throwing my weight around. It happened at speeds around 35-40 mph (neutral throttle, never when accelerating) and also at 75+.

Originally my front tire was 34-35 psi. (I wasn’t smart enough to use the TPM before adjusting and I lost a bit of air.) and the rear tire was 44 psi. Last week I adjusted the front to 39/40 psi and the rear to 42 psi. The tendency toward weaving was better, nearly gone.

I’ve been out riding several move times since, and decided to see what would happen if I lowered the front pressure to 36 psi but ended up at 35. I went for a ride and pushed the bike a bit and now have wear on two-thirds of tread surface. I detected weave only once (in a quick turn) and it was slight.

I’ve ruled out that I’m imagining this, wink but not fully ruled out that it’s just me interfaced to the bike. Is it possible that the tires are behaving differently as I’ve scrubbed them up?

Edit: I have also run the spring preload setting from one rider to two with gear a couple times to make sure it was in the correct position. At full preload (two with gear) but just me (200#) the bike feels a touch less stable.


Afternoon Roger

I guess we should have asked this earlier-- Is JUST the bike weaving with bars holding still or does it feed back into the handlebars & cause those to move (or you can feel a change in bar resistance in cadence with the weaving)?




With a new bike and so many new sensory inputs occurring I can’t say for certain. I’m pretty steady on the controls so I would say if there was any pressure at the handlebars, it was my reaction to the developing weave.

As I said above, there were fewer occurrences none/one last ride and lesser amplitude (one small wiggle weave after a curve in the road).

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 01/02/18 07:12 PM.
#1003086 - 01/02/18 07:36 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
Originally Posted by dirtrider
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
Back to my original issue, which I’ll now describe as weaving (as opposed to wobbling), meaning that the handle bars don’t move but the bike turns left right left right briskly as if I was throwing my weight around. It happened at speeds around 35-40 mph (neutral throttle, never when accelerating) and also at 75+.

Originally my front tire was 34-35 psi. (I wasn’t smart enough to use the TPM before adjusting and I lost a bit of air.) and the rear tire was 44 psi. Last week I adjusted the front to 39/40 psi and the rear to 42 psi. The tendency toward weaving was better, nearly gone.

I’ve been out riding several move times since, and decided to see what would happen if I lowered the front pressure to 36 psi but ended up at 35. I went for a ride and pushed the bike a bit and now have wear on two-thirds of tread surface. I detected weave only once (in a quick turn) and it was slight.

I’ve ruled out that I’m imagining this, wink but not fully ruled out that it’s just me interfaced to the bike. Is it possible that the tires are behaving differently as I’ve scrubbed them up?

Edit: I have also run the spring preload setting from one rider to two with gear a couple times to make sure it was in the correct position. At full preload (two with gear) but just me (200#) the bike feels a touch less stable.


Afternoon Roger

I guess we should have asked this earlier-- Is JUST the bike weaving with bars holding still or does it feed back into the handlebars & cause those to move (or you can feel a change in bar resistance in cadence with the weaving)?




With a new bike and so many new sensory inputs occurring I can’t say for certain. I’m pretty steady on the controls so I would say if there was any pressure at the handlebars, it was my reaction to the developing weave.

As I said above, there were fewer occurrences none/one last ride and lesser amplitude (one small wiggle weave after a curve in the road).


Afternoon Roger

That is starting to sound like your tires are scrubbing in more & you are getting more familiar with the new bike so are getting lighter on the controls.


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#1003091 - 01/02/18 09:46 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Afternoon DR,

If I'd only felt the wiggle/weave on the highway, I might have attributed a lot of it to me and some apprehension and tight grip. But since I drove a 2018 for 10 miles with Metzler Z8s without noticing any unusual handling and since I did notice a pronounced weave of my 2017 with PR4s within a couple miles of riding (and since it was local roads, no traffic and not particularly fast, my grip would have been light), I'm leaning toward the tires at the moment. Honestly, I find it hard to believe that the tires are at the root of this but time will tell.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 01/02/18 09:49 PM.
#1003092 - 01/02/18 11:44 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Interesting point Roger. I may need to consider changing my tyres VERY early, 'cos I don't particularly like the feel at times with these PR4’s. ...if it is the tyres.

#1003112 - 01/03/18 07:49 AM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Red Offline
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Just throwing this out there. Could it be road surface. I have highways going every cardinal direction out of my town. When I had a set of tires perform strangely on my automobile, the tire dealer told me only one of the 4 was suitable for testing tire and suspension issues. All 3 others either had groves or ripples that were nearly imperceptible but would affect handling.


Red,
Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
#1003114 - 01/03/18 09:28 AM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Hi Red, I hear you, but both Roger and myself are experienced motorcyclists who have come from bikes that have handled sweetly on any given road surface with almost any brand of tyre and tyre pressure. Now, on the same road, but with a different bike we are experiencing some interesting issues.

#1003119 - 01/03/18 01:13 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Red]  
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Originally Posted by Red
Just throwing this out there. Could it be road surface. I have highways going every cardinal direction out of my town. When I had a set of tires perform strangely on my automobile, the tire dealer told me only one of the 4 was suitable for testing tire and suspension issues. All 3 others either had groves or ripples that were nearly imperceptible but would affect handling.


Red, It seems to me that road surface is a secondary factor since the road surface inputs [u]to[/] the bike. In my case, one of the first things I looked at, the first time I got this wiggle/weave event was the road surface. And for a few minutes while I road I wondered whether that was the cause. Because it has happened on several different road surfaces, I don't think it is the primary cause.

From my systems background, I am now thinking there are three pieces to the puzzle:

--an abrupt glitch to the riding path caused by wind or road

--a motorcycle whose stability is underdamped by design (and assisted by a front steering damper)

--a factor related to how the tires behave that I will outline in a moment (my tires appear to have been lubricated!)

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 01/03/18 01:14 PM.
#1003121 - 01/03/18 01:43 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Summarizing what's been going on, I've had several stability "events". They haven't happened regularly, I don't seem to be able to cause them to happen, they have diminished in frequency, and they have happened mostly at slow (30-45 mph) riding speeds. They mainly occurred when I am riding down the road, changing a lane or changing sides of lane, or sometimes when a gust of air buffets the bike. The worst occurrence was shortly after I left the dealership. During the last two rides it only happened once (slightly) while coming out of a tight turn. The easiest way for me to describe it that something glitches the bike off line and then it oscillates back and forth 3 or four times before resuming its normal path. I've ridden a 2018 R1200RT with Metzler Z8s for 10 miles and never experienced this.

After reading about contamination on tire surfaces, I just went out and had a look at mine and found something very interesting. As I examine the tread from side to side, top of sidewall, across the riding surface to the other top of sidewall I see (photo below) three different "conditions", I'll describe the rear tire but the front is the same, just the dimensions are different:

--At the top of the left sidewall, the rubber is dull, dry and smooth. This condition (which is what I would expect) exists for the first 1" above the sidewall.

--The next 1/2" has not had road contact and has a shinier (for lack of a better word) slightly gooey something on it. I can see (look carefully at the photo) spatter marks at the boundary indicating that someone wiped a contaminant onto the tire. When I touch it with my finger, the contamination streaks, like a thin sticky grease but it is very hard to mechanically wipe of the tire.

--The next 4 1/2" going across the tread is dull, dry and scuffed-up from my riding indicating that this contaminating substance has been scrubbed off by the road.

--The 1/2' border on the right of the tire is as the 1/2" border on the left of the tire.

--The right sidewall looks the same as the left sidewall (and on the top edge of the rim you can see what feels to me like a different substance).

Looking at it, I'd say that something was applied to, got on or otherwise contaminated the surface of the tire. I haven't ridden in the rain, or through any road area that would have applied this residue to the tire and there is none splashed up onto the mud flap.

My conclusion is that it was on the tires when I left the dealership and I am wearing it off as I ride and as I push the bank angles. I'm going to contact the dealer and ask what they might have done and then use some detergent and scrub off what I can.
RB

[Linked Image]

#1003122 - 01/03/18 02:22 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Hi Roger, it doesn't look any different than any of my tyres.

#1003123 - 01/03/18 02:24 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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So Andy, are you saying that if you wipe your finger through that shiny boundary layer you get a sticky substance you can smear a bit?

#1003128 - 01/03/18 03:36 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Hmm, no.
On previous bikes I have the shiny boundary (depending on how and where the bike is being ridden), but can't say it has ever been able to smear it.

#1003131 - 01/03/18 04:36 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Those look like Michelin PR4s...perhaps that shininess has something to do with the dual-compound construction? I have to say that photo doesn't really look any different from my PR4.


2012 BMW R1200R (Sabine)
Member of: BMWMOA #189688; BMWRA #40273; IBA #55835.
My fuel economy -- powered by Fuelly
#1003132 - 01/03/18 04:58 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Hi Rodger,

Tire goober you say, that sure isn't normal. Between the smooth surface of a brand new tire and any tire mold release agent (silicon oil, or some type fatty acid compound like erucamide) could cause all kinds of problems until scrubbed off. But that stuff is by design sitting only on the tire surface and the gummy material you say you can smear off may point to some solvent that penetrated and soften the rubber compound which would make the problems persist much longer...maybe even spoil the nature of the rubber compound under prolonged exposure. My guess that unless the tire was sitting in the solvent for a while it really should scrub off with more riding. Maybe try using some Dawn dish soap water and a soft scrub brush to get all that stuff off your tire, rinse and let dry and then see if the issue is gone.

Just a swag here, but you might ask how the dealer prepared the bike. Did they use some solvating type cleaner to wipe off the exhaust and rims. Some of those so called environmental friendly cleaners could be a culprit as they are based on limonene compounds which are very soluble in rubber. Limonene can turn un-vulcanized rubber into a gummy sticky mess...we call it glue where I workgrin


If the good old days were so damn good, why did we bother to invent modern times?

Most missed bike: Bultaco Sherpa T 326
#1003133 - 01/03/18 05:00 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Hi Roger, congrats on the new RT. Do you still have your '04 ? One thing nice is you won't have to concern yourself with fueling issues.


James
'93 R1100RSL / '10 FJR1300A
#1003137 - 01/03/18 08:34 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: JamesW]  
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Originally Posted by JamesW
Hi Roger, congrats on the new RT. Do you still have your '04 ? One thing nice is you won't have to concern yourself with fueling issues.


Thanks, I really like this bike! Although the fueling feels quite good, I will do some work on it. First I'll add the AF-XIEDs and later a pair of LC-2s. I'd like to see how it reacts to a few percent more fuel, then I plan to use the LC-2s to map the fueling and see what's what. None of this will happen until later in the spring or summer though until I've got the bike broken in. The one thing I notice is that I'm downshifting more at low RPMs than I had to with the R1150RT (sold) at 8% rich. We'll see how a little fuel effects that.

#1003138 - 01/03/18 09:47 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Roger, not sure if you've seen this from Ax-fied's website:

R1200
Use of the BMW AFXIED is no longer recommended for 2014 and later liquid cooled R1200. Field updates to the ECM by BMW Dealers during routine service department visits are creating incompatibility between the ECM and the AFXIED.

The field upgrade was something beyond our control, with no know issues prior to the new ECM load occurring in late 2016. With the field upgrade slowly propagating the change, the situation was not discovered until early 2017. This resulted in our de-certification of the R1200 LC models.

We are in the process of developing an updated AFXIED for these bikes. Release date to be announced at a future time.

There are no known issues with the older air/oil cooled engines.


Workin' Them Angels . . .overtime
06 R12RT

The point of the journey is not to arrive...

[I'm the handsome one on the right, Gray Bastard on the left and Jerry in the middle.]
#1003141 - 01/03/18 10:08 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Indy Dave]  
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Originally Posted by workin' them angels
Roger, not sure if you've seen this from Ax-fied's website:

R1200
Use of the BMW AFXIED is no longer recommended for 2014 and later liquid cooled R1200. Field updates to the ECM by BMW Dealers during routine service department visits are creating incompatibility between the ECM and the AFXIED.

The field upgrade was something beyond our control, with no know issues prior to the new ECM load occurring in late 2016. With the field upgrade slowly propagating the change, the situation was not discovered until early 2017. This resulted in our de-certification of the R1200 LC models.

We are in the process of developing an updated AFXIED for these bikes. Release date to be announced at a future time.

There are no known issues with the older air/oil cooled engines.

Let me hijack myself for a moment ...

Yes, I am well aware of that but thanks for bringing it up. I was the pioneer for that project after putting an Innovate Motorsports LC-1 on my R1150RT. The LC-1 worked great but it was too hard to implement for the average rider. I got Nightrider to create an AF-XIED that would be plug 'n play for the entire BMW line of bikes.

It's working out pretty well except on the latest model R1200 LC bikes with the latest software. BMW has incorporated a new test of the O2 sensor to try and knock out bad sensors (fueling modifiers) and as a result the AF-XIED causes the BMSX to throw a minor code. For the last several months, I have been helping Steve at Nightrider to develop an add-on module, together with an owner of an LC GSA and LC RT. As of just last week, a new adaptor module to the XIED has passed all its tests on a LC bike and will be headed into production soon.

The new adaptor module will be compatible with all existing AF-XIEDs. Nightrider is pretty conservative so I expect they will take several weeks or months to bring it to production.

This whole episode reminds me of the Mad Magazine Spy vs Spy cartoon where each spy tries to outdo the other. BMW keeps making its sensor tests more accurate and fueling add-on makers then have to adapt.

As of this time, I should be able to get a pair of the Beta Units now that I've got an RTW. I'll run those first but then later switch to LC-2s so that I can log the RTW AFR for the entire map. Actual, on the road AFR, is almost always much different than the inaccurate AFRs you see from Dyno runs. That's why I want to map it myself. If you've got a few nights, ;), here's a link to the research: http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=746671#Post746671.

Here's the beta-unit add-on module that gets the AF-XIED to play with the newest RTWs.
[Linked Image]

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 01/03/18 10:20 PM.
#1003142 - 01/03/18 10:31 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: Paul De]  
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Originally Posted by Paul De
Hi Roger,

Tire goober you say, that sure isn't normal. Between the smooth surface of a brand new tire and any tire mold release agent (silicon oil, or some type fatty acid compound like erucamide) could cause all kinds of problems until scrubbed off. But that stuff is by design sitting only on the tire surface and the gummy material you say you can smear off may point to some solvent that penetrated and soften the rubber compound which would make the problems persist much longer...maybe even spoil the nature of the rubber compound under prolonged exposure. My guess that unless the tire was sitting in the solvent for a while it really should scrub off with more riding. Maybe try using some Dawn dish soap water and a soft scrub brush to get all that stuff off your tire, rinse and let dry and then see if the issue is gone.

Just a swag here, but you might ask how the dealer prepared the bike. Did they use some solvating type cleaner to wipe off the exhaust and rims. Some of those so called environmental friendly cleaners could be a culprit as they are based on limonene compounds which are very soluble in rubber. Limonene can turn un-vulcanized rubber into a gummy sticky mess...we call it glue where I workgrin


I spoke to the dealer, who seems fairly transparent. Here's what he said:

--They don't treat the tires, "that's a no no."
--All the new tires they see have some release agent on them and are slick at delivery
--Coating described as waxy, almost like Armor All like. Consistent with what I see.
--Someone left the dealership last week on a new bike and dumped it exiting the parking lot. Fall attributed to slick tires.
--When you just replace one tire, the coating issues aren't so noticeable as on a new bike.
--Their advice is to ride-in the tires with caution. (I don't remember them saying that wink )

The last two Michelin tires I changed were shiny over most of the surface of the tire but not quite like the ones I have now. The coating I've focused on in the photo doesn't cover the whole tire, just the road contact area (yikes) and not even the last inch on either side of center. And the coating I see is a little thicker than I remember on my other tires. ...

So that's what I heard. After looking at what's on them a little more I'm going to give them a strong scrub down with detergent and a 3M pad.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 01/03/18 10:36 PM.
#1003161 - 01/04/18 08:00 AM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Red Offline
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For what it's worth. I have been advised by dealer and non dealer tire installers to "take it easy" for the first 50 miles or so on new tires until they are scuffed up because out of the box they are slick and will dump you like hard breaking on a wet lawn. People dumping their bike shortly after getting new rubber is not uncommon if they brake, accelerate, or corner aggressively soon after installation. Almost every tire I've owned had, at some time, a similar color/wear profile as the one pictured. Good or bad, the coloration and wear seems to be typical (for me).


Red,
Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
#1003243 - 01/06/18 12:49 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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I got out for an hour of tire scrubbing-in a couple days ago and rode for several miles of S-turns at various speeds on a two lane road, banking as far over as I could in the two lanes of space available. The handling felt quick and completely predictable, really very good.

On the way home I rode into a blustery headwind and noticed that as I changed sides of my lane, with the bike essentially straight up, there was a sense of a lack of precision. Perhaps this is due to the compound tread construction with a relatively harder center tread, time will tell. Interesting though that there was a feeling of greater precision making aggressive turns than going straight ahead.

Regarding tire pressure, I haven’t really noticed a big difference between front tire 36 and 39 psi in the handling, just the ride is a bit harsher so I’ll stay at 36 as recommended in the manual. Odd that by specifying 36 and 42 as measured by the TPM. that they want higher actual pressure on hot days and lower on cold ones.

Dirtrider has suggested that I get 1500 miles or so on the tires which will flatten the center section some and I’m going to take that advice and see where I’m at.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 01/06/18 01:20 PM.
#1003282 - 01/07/18 07:26 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
...Odd that by specifying 36 and 42 as measured by the TPM. that they want higher actual pressure on hot days and lower on cold ones.

...


The TPMS compensates for temperature, and the pressures it displays are adjusted to read as if the temperature were 20C (68F). Presumably this also means that the recommended 36/42 PSI are also for tires at 20C. So, if you inflated your tires to those pressures at 68F, and the ambient air temperature reaches 90F, then if you used a gauge to measure the pressure in your tires, it's going to be higher than 36/42, but the TPMS would still show them to be 36/42 (or, at least in a perfect world it would).

Last edited by marcopolo; 01/07/18 07:31 PM.

Mark
2015 R 1200 GS Adventure
#1003287 - 01/07/18 08:24 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Marco,

That's exactly what I’m saying and in other words, the BMW tire pressure spec is:

at 38F ... 33 psi

and:

at 108F ((88F plus 20F tire rise) ... 40 psi

In effect BMW is saying absolute tire pressure doesn’t matter that much as long as it’s in an acceptable range.

This is news to me because I’ve always set tire pressure to target in the garage, tires cold.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 01/07/18 10:09 PM.
#1003296 - 01/07/18 11:25 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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And that is correct, cold in the garage to the PSI you want to run.

Most of us run 40/42 on our tires.

I check before I leave for a ride with a gauge and that is what I run.

TPS are ok, but the tire gauge is what I look at and believe.

I do no calculations or anything, cold tire, in tire gauge I trust.


Lee

17 Black GSW Low
#1003303 - 01/08/18 12:48 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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The temperature compensation thing makes no sense at all. I want to see the actual pressure in my tires and fully understand that once I heat up the tires by riding that the pressure will show higher than the specified "cold" (current ambient temperature) setting. Why they complicated the crap out of something so simple is beyond me.

#1003304 - 01/08/18 01:45 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Agreed, that it isn’t what I’ve done for decades. On the other hand, BMW is very specific:

The tire pressures are shown adjusted for temperature on the multifunction display and are always relative to the following tire air temperature:

68°F(20°C)

Tire pressure adjustment
Compare the TPC/RDC value in the multifunction display with the value on the back cover of the Rider's Manual. The difference between the two filling station values must be compensated with the tire inflation pressure tester at the filling station.


So the question is, why have they done it this way? It seems like they’ve gone to extra effort to make this system temperature compensated.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 01/08/18 01:47 PM.
#1003305 - 01/08/18 01:49 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: LIRider]  
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Originally Posted by LIRider
The temperature compensation thing makes no sense at all. I want to see the actual pressure in my tires and fully understand that once I heat up the tires by riding that the pressure will show higher than the specified "cold" (current ambient temperature) setting. Why they complicated the crap out of something so simple is beyond me.


Morning LIRider

Actually BMW (as well as most auto companies) have simplified it.

As it stands now the dash reading is temperature corrected. If it wasn't temperature compensated then BMW would have had to use dual output in-wheel pressure/temperature sensors & add two on-dash tire temperature readouts (or one readout that is complex & switchable) then the rider would be required to do the compensation math for each wheel while riding.

Once riding (with the tires warming up), then just knowing (uncompensated) tire pressures is about useless without knowing each TIRE's temperature to go with the pressure reading.

When I rode to work last Friday my bike started out in my shop @ about 65°f, I rode out into negative 4°f ambient (4° below 0°f), onto a road surface that was WELL below freezing. By the time I got to work my tires were warm to the touch (so above body temperature anyhow). If the tire pressures were not temperature compensated then I would probably have seen a low tire warning after a mile of riding as my first mile was on frozen ice covered back roads.

While I was in the workplace it only got up to +8°f (high for the day) but one side of both tires were in direct sun light (without compensation where should my pressures have read to be correct?)

I suppose BMW could have been a little more thoughtful & used more expensive dual channel wheel pressure sensors & a much more complex dash readout that allowed the rider to switch between compensated tire pressure readings & direct tire pressure readings for the 1 presenters that would like that option. Or done like some aftermarket TPS systems & just used ambient temperatures to sort-of guess at tire temperatures for the compensated reading (works OK after sitting all night but not so good while riding).


D.R. ___
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#1003315 - 01/08/18 04:44 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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I'm not sure I follow dirtrider ... if you're tires were set to proper inflation pressure at the current ambient temperature (not your nice warm garage/shop), then why would there have been any issue with low pressure warning? In fact, had you set your tires in that nice warm shop, then indeed you were probably low once you got out on the road and the tires cooled to ambient temperature (before starting to warm up from riding, which should have brought the pressure up above the spec setting). Am I misinterpreting something?

#1003317 - 01/08/18 04:56 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Hi D.R., -4F?? And riding a motorcycle?? Now that takes dedication. Have you ever had a shock start to leak when going from +65 to -4 ? If I did that about the last thing I would be worried about is my tire pressure but that's me.


James
'93 R1100RSL / '10 FJR1300A
#1003319 - 01/08/18 06:08 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: LIRider]  
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Originally Posted by LIRider
I'm not sure I follow dirtrider ... if you're tires were set to proper inflation pressure at the current ambient temperature (not your nice warm garage/shop), then why would there have been any issue with low pressure warning? In fact, had you set your tires in that nice warm shop, then indeed you were probably low once you got out on the road and the tires cooled to ambient temperature (before starting to warm up from riding, which should have brought the pressure up above the spec setting). Am I misinterpreting something?


Afternoon LIRider

BMW specified tire pressures (as well as most autos & motorcycles) are based on a nominal cold tire @ 68°f. Most manuals don't mention that as in most cases the ambient temps are not far enough off of 68°f (20°c) to make much difference so adding more confusion to tire checking procedures is not useful & can be confusing for most operators.

So lets assume I did the correct thing & (correctly) set my tire pressures in my shop to 32 psi at 68° (or 65°f in my case)-- I now ride the bike out into the -4°f cold. As the tires drop to ambient temps they could lose 7 psi, 32 psi minus 7 psi = 25 psi. 25 psi could be low enough to trip the low tire pressure warning. With the TPS temperature compensation system it all bases back to 68°f so the low tire warning threshold just drops to reflect that.

I am an all season rider (within reason) so usually run my tires a few pounds higher in the winter just so I don't bend a rim if I find a hidden square edged pot hole.


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#1003320 - 01/08/18 06:21 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: JamesW]  
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Originally Posted by JamesW
Hi D.R., -4F?? And riding a motorcycle?? Now that takes dedication. Have you ever had a shock start to leak when going from +65 to -4 ? If I did that about the last thing I would be worried about is my tire pressure but that's me.


Afternoon JamesW

No, no shock or seal leaks but in the early days of alloy wheels I had a few lose air pressure due to porosity and/or tire/rim sealing.

Actually my biggest problem is a fogging face shield & inability to turn my head very far due to head covering & a neck stuffer. I also have problems with some of the finer controls due to thick heated gloves.

I do get a lot of razzing from co-workers about being stupid enough to ride in the cold but those very same co-workers will go north for the weekend & ride snowmobiles all day (or at least from bar to bar) in sub 0°f weather with visibility of ZERO at times.

The good about riding in the cold is very little waving to other riders but I do get a lot of thumbs up from car commuters.


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#1003325 - 01/08/18 07:21 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: dirtrider]  
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Originally Posted by dirtrider
Originally Posted by LIRider
I'm not sure I follow dirtrider ... if you're tires were set to proper inflation pressure at the current ambient temperature (not your nice warm garage/shop), then why would there have been any issue with low pressure warning? In fact, had you set your tires in that nice warm shop, then indeed you were probably low once you got out on the road and the tires cooled to ambient temperature (before starting to warm up from riding, which should have brought the pressure up above the spec setting). Am I misinterpreting something?


Afternoon LIRider

BMW specified tire pressures (as well as most autos & motorcycles) are based on a nominal cold tire @ 68°f. Most manuals don't mention that as in most cases the ambient temps are not far enough off of 68°f (20°c) to make much difference so adding more confusion to tire checking procedures is not useful & can be confusing for most operators.

So lets assume I did the correct thing & (correctly) set my tire pressures in my shop to 32 psi at 68° (or 65°f in my case)-- I now ride the bike out into the -4°f cold. As the tires drop to ambient temps they could lose 7 psi, 32 psi minus 7 psi = 25 psi. 25 psi could be low enough to trip the low tire pressure warning. With the TPS temperature compensation system it all bases back to 68°f so the low tire warning threshold just drops to reflect that.

I am an all season rider (within reason) so usually run my tires a few pounds higher in the winter just so I don't bend a rim if I find a hidden square edged pot hole.



I have to say that's news to me and contrary to what I've been doing for the past 40 years. It's also contrary to anything I can find online too:

Air Pressure, Temperature Fluctuations

Winter vs. Summer Tire Pressure - What is the Proper Inflation?

Can you supply any information to back up that claim? I'm not being argumentative, just trying to establish the proper method based on facts (and yes, I know that not everything one reads online is in fact, "a fact").

The facts as I know them right now are:
The stated pressure is for the current ambient conditions and not some arbitrary "cold" setting.

#1003326 - 01/08/18 07:53 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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I think part of your answer is in your owners manual......

#1003327 - 01/08/18 07:58 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: dirtrider]  
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Originally Posted by dirtrider


Actually my biggest problem is a fogging face shield & inability to turn my head very far due to head covering & a neck stuffer.



I have been about ready to do a "product evaluation" on this. I finally found something that keeps visors and glasses from fogging. So far I have tested in upper 40's to 90 degree rain with complete satisfaction. I won't likely get a chance to test in sub 20 degrees, maybe you could?

Clarity "DEFOG it" I bought the 5ml bottle and it goes with me on every trip.

Last edited by realshelby; 01/08/18 07:58 PM.
#1003332 - 01/08/18 09:12 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: LIRider]  
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Originally Posted by LIRider
Originally Posted by dirtrider
Originally Posted by LIRider
I'm not sure I follow dirtrider ... if you're tires were set to proper inflation pressure at the current ambient temperature (not your nice warm garage/shop), then why would there have been any issue with low pressure warning? In fact, had you set your tires in that nice warm shop, then indeed you were probably low once you got out on the road and the tires cooled to ambient temperature (before starting to warm up from riding, which should have brought the pressure up above the spec setting). Am I misinterpreting something?


Afternoon LIRider

BMW specified tire pressures (as well as most autos & motorcycles) are based on a nominal cold tire @ 68°f. Most manuals don't mention that as in most cases the ambient temps are not far enough off of 68°f (20°c) to make much difference so adding more confusion to tire checking procedures is not useful & can be confusing for most operators.

So lets assume I did the correct thing & (correctly) set my tire pressures in my shop to 32 psi at 68° (or 65°f in my case)-- I now ride the bike out into the -4°f cold. As the tires drop to ambient temps they could lose 7 psi, 32 psi minus 7 psi = 25 psi. 25 psi could be low enough to trip the low tire pressure warning. With the TPS temperature compensation system it all bases back to 68°f so the low tire warning threshold just drops to reflect that.

I am an all season rider (within reason) so usually run my tires a few pounds higher in the winter just so I don't bend a rim if I find a hidden square edged pot hole.



I have to say that's news to me and contrary to what I've been doing for the past 40 years. It's also contrary to anything I can find online too:



Can you supply any information to back up that claim? I'm not being argumentative, just trying to establish the proper method based on facts (and yes, I know that not everything one reads online is in fact, "a fact").

The facts as I know them right now are:
The stated pressure is for the current ambient conditions and not some arbitrary "cold" setting.





Afternoon LIRider

Most if not all tire pressures that I work with daily in engineering (some days many) are based off of a 68°f cold factor. Due to the ideal gas law you just can't (with accuracy anyhow) call any temperature a cold temperature. It needs to be defined (especially when setting safe operating pressures).

While the BMW manual says a cold tire they don't define what a cold tire is that could be anywhere form a -25°f or a +112°f & still be an overnight cold soak. They also don't expect a rider to stop & allow their tires to cool to a cold tire the get re-air'd to the ambient as they ride from a desert area to a very cold high mountain area.

Nothing wrong with using the overnight cold ambient temps for base tire setting as long as that temperature is reasonably close to 68°f (48°f to 88°f will get you within 2 lbs so usually close enough for most riders & most conditions.

You need to look in the riders manual as under the general tire pressures area, there they just call out cold tire (no temperature definition or fudge factor). Seeing as EVERY 10°f in cold-tire-temperature-change changes the tire pressures about 1 pound you would thing think that if BMW was really concerned that they would specify a nominal cold tire temperature range or give a conversion chart. They don't for the same reason that the company that I work for is very hesitant to use different front & rear tire pressures on general consumer vehicles as most regular drivers get very confused by the split numbers (we do use split pressures on some now but it is a big fight to get that to be written in the owners manuals)

Most riders that ride hard (not just think they ride hard) have a good idea of the tire pressures that work for their tire type, bike, & riding style as well as temperature ranges so they usually use their own cold tire temperature offsets.

BMW if very contradictory in their riders manual as in the general tire pressure section they just say COLD TIRES. (non defined)

But later in the same manual they have a very specific tire pressure & tire filling chart with an explanation on how to use the RDS system to obtain corrected tire pressures (the RDC system IS corrected back to 68°f (20°c).

If you use the riders manual & a pressure gauge to fill to 34 psi at 90°f cold tire (think desert areas), or use 45°f cold tire (think upper Midwest in late fall) then your pressures will be way off per the RDC system & RDC procedures.

One of the nice things about using the RDC system to (at least check/verify the pressures) is that it IS corrected back to 68°f (20°c). It might not be totally accurate to tenths of a pound but at least it is ALWAYS apples to apples so no matter the temperatures the tires will be well within safe & correct pressure ranges. (without temperature compensation if a rider fills a tire at 0°f to suggested cold pressure then gets on the freeway at 90mph for a couple of hours his tires will be well above max safe operating pressures).

[Linked Image]


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#1003337 - 01/08/18 11:05 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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That’s very clear DR.

So here in FL I set my tires to 36.3 in the garage at 68F, go out on a 98F day, ride at 80 and heat the tires another 50 degrees (my car tire pressures go up about 5 psi at that speed) and my actual tire pressure will be 44.3 psi but the display will still indicate 36.

#1003339 - 01/08/18 11:57 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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"One of the nice things about using the RDC system to (at least check/verify the pressures) is that it IS corrected back to 68°f (20°c). It might not be totally accurate to tenths of a pound but at least it is ALWAYS apples to apples so no matter the temperatures the tires will be well within safe & correct pressure ranges. (without temperature compensation if a rider fills a tire at 0°f to suggested cold pressure then gets on the freeway at 90mph for a couple of hours his tires will be well above max safe operating pressures)."

What is the max safe operating pressure?

Thanks.

Terry

Last edited by terryofperry; 01/08/18 11:57 PM.

Terry

Perry, GA
#1003352 - 01/09/18 11:51 AM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Hey Terry,
When I saw your question, I thought “that’s easy, I’ll go read the sidewall.” All I can find on either front or back is a max load spec at a certain pressure. That pressure is 42 psi COLD on each tire. The front load is 520# and the rear is 805#.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 01/09/18 11:55 AM.
#1003873 - 01/18/18 05:05 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
That’s very clear DR.

So here in FL I set my tires to 36.3 in the garage at 68F, go out on a 98F day, ride at 80 and heat the tires another 50 degrees (my car tire pressures go up about 5 psi at that speed) and my actual tire pressure will be 44.3 psi but the display will still indicate 36.


No, I do not think that is how it works. If I fill my tyres up (after an overnight rest in the garage) to the pressures indicated in the manual or perhaps a few PSI above, when I start my ride the display shows the pressures exactly as I filled them. Then as the ride progresses both tyre pressures are shown to increase a few PSI. The next day the display shows the pressures as they were filled the day before.


2014 F800GT
2015 R1200RT LE
1960 88" Land Rover Station Wagon
#1004154 - 01/25/18 02:53 AM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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I ran the D-ESA calibration using the GS-911. It runs the rear shock spring pre load adjustment to both extremes to figure out where it is. Since doing that the bike is steadier, even up to 90 in heavy traffic, with truck wake, where it had been squeamish. It’s not perfectly steady in the buffeting but not bad.

Has anyone else tried running the cal?

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 01/25/18 02:54 AM.
#1004162 - 01/25/18 01:28 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Hi Roger,
I have used the GS-911 w/WIFI on my 2016 RT for several resets/adaptations with excellent results:
1) Engine (BMS-X)-- 9 Function Tests
2) Engine (BMS-X)-- 5 Adaptation Values
3) ABS (XABS)-- Pump actuation and ABS Bleed
4) Satellite Body Controller (XSFA)-- Calibrate Windscreen
5) Semi-Active Suspension Controller (XSAF)-- Calibrate Travel Sensor
6) Ignition Lock/ Immobilizer (XEWS)-- Learn New Key Fob
7) Tyre Pressure Monitor (XRDC)-- Program/Learn New Sensor (Unsuccessful)

Most of the modules restes are pretty benign, but the transmission relearn, fuel mix/idle control, and suspension calibrate travel were perceived in "seat of the pants" improvements.
The ABS module for bleeding the brakes is very worthwhile...I don't know how effective my previous brake bleeding was in the "post Wizzy Brake" era without this!
I have an extra set of rims that I keep swapping out fresh rubber with, and was not able to use the GS-911 to either enter the Serial Numbers or do an adaptive relearn with... both rims were automatically recognized by the bike within 5 miles of riding though.
I was also not successful with this TPMS relearn on my previous K1600GT, but they also were picked up by the bike after a short ride.

Just as a note, I try to run my tire pressures at F=40 and R=42 psi all the time...rain or dry, hot or cold, slab or mixed gravel. I've increased the stable feel, and reduced some of the cupping in the front this way.

Standing by to assist with anything else...

#1004164 - 01/25/18 01:43 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Oh, a couple of other things I feel affect the stability of the Wethead RT's...

1) I changed the windscreen to the AeroFlow RTW Tall. I'm 6'2 and ride with the seat in the high position, (plus I have a custom Laam seat with an extra 3/4" padding) and this really reduced the buffeting I was getting on either side of my helmet and shoulders. I only have the screen up off the lower stops about an inch, and still have about an inch that my line of vision is above the top edge.
2) I bought the 28L top case. Compared to having no top case, or my 49L BMW top case, this provides the smoothest ride. I get more slipstream back draft with no top case (and no pillion) and feel lots more side pressure, both drawing in, and pushing off from passing trucks with the larger 49L case on...but there are times when you live with it because that's the way you want/need to be configured.

#1004427 - 01/30/18 06:04 AM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
That’s very clear DR.

So here in FL I set my tires to 36.3 in the garage at 68F, go out on a 98F day, ride at 80 and heat the tires another 50 degrees (my car tire pressures go up about 5 psi at that speed) and my actual tire pressure will be 44.3 psi but the display will still indicate 36.


I like to adjust tire pressure so that it reads whatever I want it to read on the TPC readout. Consequently, it's always sitting on 39F/42R until it loses a bit slowly over time.. When adding air I'll rough it in a bit over my typical 39F/42R w/ a good gauge following the usual temperature compensation logic of +/- 1psi for every 10 degrees F below or above 68F. Then after being out on the road a while on my first stop will bleed of a bit if it is displaying a little high, for example 40/43, I'll bleed a little air off and can usually get it spot on on the first try taking care not to take out too much.. When you read between the lines in the manual on TPC it seems clear they think you can trust their system certainly more than the gas station's pump gauge, and that can apply to any other gauge for all practical purposes. There is no specification published as to how accurate BMW TPC is, but as I say BMW feels good enough about to tell you to rely on it enough to adjust pressure to the displayed output. It's remarkably stable though: On June 5, 2016 we were riding past Las Vegas OTW to St. George UT in 112F temp for hours uphill, and the displayed pressure stayed exactly the same for the entire ride after leaving Big Pine, CA at maybe 45F or something I forget now. That's pretty impressive in my book.

Last edited by NoelCP; 01/30/18 06:04 AM.
#1004447 - 01/30/18 03:43 PM Re: 2017 R1200RT Stability [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Last week I rode about 250 miles up and back for my 600 mile service. The highway (I 75) was mostly North/South and the wind was strongly out of the East @ 25, gusting 35-40 MPH, plus lots of tractor/trailers running between 65 and 80 MPH. Of about 5 hours of riding, 4 hours was on my R1200RTW and 1 hour was on a friend's 2017 Harley Road Glide, while he rode mine. In those conditions, the Harley had the steadier ride--you felt the buffets but the bike felt solid on it's course. I also had the bike ridden by the dealership owner, he and my friend both felt the difference was that the RTW is a lighter, faster steering bike. The dealer also went over all the front end suspension, checking for tightness.

On the way back, I changed from One-Up SOFT suspension to One-Up HARD suspension and found that I liked the handling at highway speeds/with gusts better in the HARD setting. The next day, with the wind conditions still the same I tried several other suspension conditions and found that (for instance) the Two-Up setting handled less solidly than One-Up with just me aboard. I'll try similar conditions with no cases as soon as I can.

Although I've focused on this issue (which I would now describe as the RTW not liking to be abruptly knocked off course) for a while, I really like the RTW, it does so many things well and is otherwise a pleasure to ride--particularly the gear-shift Pro assist. I'm left with one question, could a tire change (to Metzler or Pirelli) affect handling, in the gusty conditions at highway speeds?

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 01/30/18 03:54 PM.
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