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New Tire Wipe-Out


Michaelr11

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So, two weeks ago I put a new RoadSmart III front tire on my R1100RT. I turned left out of the driveway, 1/4 mile to the next right turn, I felt the "usual new tire" light squirm as I made the slow right but then felt it continue to drop right and the bike was down. Broken mirror glass and badly scraped valve cover guard, but no other damage to the RT. Bruised hip and shoulder where I hit the asphalt.

 

Here's the thing. I'm an experienced rider. Ride all year long. I put about 3 sets of tires on this bike each year. I know about scrubbing in a new tire and taking it easy for the first 50 or so miles. NEVER had a tire that was so squirmy at the outset. I had the bike out since the drop and even after the first 100 mile ride the front felt light and twitchy. Some time during the 2nd 100 mile ride the front finally started to feel more planted and responsive. Probably some of this was in my head after the drop, but this tire really seems to be an oddball for breaking in. This was my 4th RS3 front tire - no issues with the three prior fronts, just gradually increased my lean angle during my first ride and that was it.

 

Anybody else dealt with a slicker or harder than normal new tire?

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So, two weeks ago I put a new RoadSmart III front tire on my R1100RT. I turned left out of the driveway, 1/4 mile to the next right turn, I felt the "usual new tire" light squirm as I made the slow right but then felt it continue to drop right and the bike was down. Broken mirror glass and badly scraped valve cover guard, but no other damage to the RT. Bruised hip and shoulder where I hit the asphalt.

 

Here's the thing. I'm an experienced rider. Ride all year long. I put about 3 sets of tires on this bike each year. I know about scrubbing in a new tire and taking it easy for the first 50 or so miles. NEVER had a tire that was so squirmy at the outset. I had the bike out since the drop and even after the first 100 mile ride the front felt light and twitchy. Some time during the 2nd 100 mile ride the front finally started to feel more planted and responsive. Probably some of this was in my head after the drop, but this tire really seems to be an oddball for breaking in. This was my 4th RS3 front tire - no issues with the three prior fronts, just gradually increased my lean angle during my first ride and that was it.

 

Anybody else dealt with a slicker or harder than normal new tire?

 

Afternoon Michaelr11

 

Who mounted the tire & what type / how much mounting lube used?

 

I haven't had much of an issue with newly mounted tires (maybe a little squirmy for a few miles but nothing dangerous)-- But I mount my own tires & after installing ANY newly mounted tire on my motorcycle I scrub the tire tread surface with a Scotch Pad & Westlys Bleche-White as that removes any misplaced tire mounting lube as well as any remaining tire release agent used in manufacturing.

 

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Who mounted the tire & what type / how much mounting lube used?

 

I haven't had much of an issue with newly mounted tires (maybe a little squirmy for a few miles but nothing dangerous)-- But I mount my own tires & after installing ANY newly mounted tire on my motorcycle I scrub the tire tread surface with a Scotch Pad & Westlys Bleche-White as that removes any misplaced tire mounting lube as well as any remaining tire release agent used in manufacturing.

 

I use a motorcycle repair shop for all my mounting. Mounting lube is in a squirt bottle so I don't know what kind. He mounted it, I brought it home and balanced it then put it on the bike. Next day I went out for the ride. I've never scrubbed or washed off my new tires before and never experienced this kind of issue.

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Who mounted the tire & what type / how much mounting lube used?

 

I haven't had much of an issue with newly mounted tires (maybe a little squirmy for a few miles but nothing dangerous)-- But I mount my own tires & after installing ANY newly mounted tire on my motorcycle I scrub the tire tread surface with a Scotch Pad & Westlys Bleche-White as that removes any misplaced tire mounting lube as well as any remaining tire release agent used in manufacturing.

 

I use a motorcycle repair shop for all my mounting. Mounting lube is in a squirt bottle so I don't know what kind. He mounted it, I brought it home and balanced it then put it on the bike. Next day I went out for the ride. I've never scrubbed or washed off my new tires before and never experienced this kind of issue .

 

Afternoon Michaelr11

 

You can't be sure that the guy doing the tire mounting didn't squirt, or transfer through his hands or gloves, lots of mounting lube to the tire tread area.

 

Most shops will at least wipe the excess tire mounting lube off but some are too lazy or don't know any better.

 

If you don't mount the tire yourself then always assume that there is slippery tire mounting lube on the tire tread so fully clean the tread area before riding on that tire. Even if mounting the tire yourself you should clean the tread area before riding on it, but at least in doing it yourself you have an idea on how much lube you used & how careful you were.

 

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Lone_RT_rider

One thing people are forgetting is that the slick stuff on the outside of the tire that we normally have to scrub off is tire mold release agent. Depending on the tire producing machine, that agent can be applied manually. It sounds like there is a possibility that they person working that machine might have gotten a bit over zealous with the application.

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One thing people are forgetting is that the slick stuff on the outside of the tire that we normally have to scrub off is tire mold release agent. Depending on the tire producing machine, that agent can be applied manually. It sounds like there is a possibility that they person working that machine might have gotten a bit over zealous with the application.

 

Afternoon Lone_RT_rider

 

Actually it was mentioned in a post above but most motorcycle tire manufactures don't use a release agent any longer.

 

Per E-Mail from Dunlop---

 

"Dunlop Motorcycle Tire does NOT use a "mold releasing

agent" during the production of our tires. When new tires are fitted,

they should not be subjected to maximum power, abrupt lean-over or hard

cornering until a reasonable run-in distance of approximately 100 miles

has been covered. This will permit the rider to become accustomed to the

feel of the new tires or tire combination, find the edge, and achieve

optimum road grip for a range of speeds, acceleration and handling use. Be

sure to check and adjust inflation pressure to recommended levels after the

tire cools for at least three (3) hours following run-in. Remember, new

tires will have a very different contact patch and lean-over edge. New

tires, mixing a new tire with an used tire, and mixing tread pattern

combinations require careful ride evaluations".

 

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One thing people are forgetting is that the slick stuff on the outside of the tire that we normally have to scrub off is tire mold release agent. Depending on the tire producing machine, that agent can be applied manually. It sounds like there is a possibility that they person working that machine might have gotten a bit over zealous with the application.

 

 

Depends on the manufacturer of the tire as well. Read some time ago that most aren't using any type of tire mold release. If memory is right, Michelin is the only one that admitted to still using the product.

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I use a heavy thick fiber paint stripper wheel in a cordless drill to scuff new skins after mounting on the rims, prior to install on the machine.

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Michael,

 

Could you have had low pressure in the tire?? Slow leak in the valve possibly, or forgot to put the correct pressure in it?? Sounds like a wipeout with a very low front tire I had back in high school. Everything was good until I took a corner. Wasn't going that fast but it wouldn't stay up, layed it right down. It felt just like the front tire was a swivel caster. Zero steerability. Skint my knee and tore up my favorite jeans, remember it vividly.

 

I had a brand new shiny rear tire slide right out from under me in a corner of the quadrangle back in college. I was saved by the curb but that was enough to put "the fear" in me. Ever since then I'll scrub the ENTIRE TREAD of every tire. Sometimes it's just slinging the entire wheel with tire mounted against concrete or asphalt, sometimes using sandpaper on the tread before doing anything else, even used a belt sander once, ANYTHING to get all residue AND the molded shiny rubber off the tread. That SHINY molded rubber surface is slick all by itself.

 

My brother who has A LOT more experience in MC's than I'll ever have scoffed and fussed at me continuously last weekend for scuffing a new Pirelli we were mounting on my K. I just ignored him. On that point, anyway. Then rode it 280 miles, half of it in the rain, in the mountains, NO problem.

 

Pre-scuff 'em.

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Something that comes to mind for me - it's entirely possible that the tire picked up some oil or grease at the shop. On the bench, the mechanic's hands, a rag, the floor. Or even on the road somewhere after leaving the shop. Just a thought.

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Danny caddyshack Noonan

Mold releases have been changing constantly over the last 10 years. Could be a new one that is more persistent on the rubber side of the mold.

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D.R. said "Afternoon Michaelr11

 

Who mounted the tire & what type / how much mounting lube used?

 

I haven't had much of an issue with newly mounted tires (maybe a little squirmy for a few miles but nothing dangerous)-- But I mount my own tires & after installing ANY newly mounted tire on my motorcycle I scrub the tire tread surface with a Scotch Pad & Westlys Bleche-White as that removes any misplaced tire mounting lube as well as any remaining tire release agent used in manufacturing."

 

Like D.R., I've been mounting and balancing my own tires for years using 50/50 dish soap and water for a bead lubricant. When finished, I clean with water and a scotch-brite pad. So far, I've not had any issues.

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I've had this happen. Two years ago I put a new set of Dunlop Q3's on my '14 ZX-6R. I was taking it easy, but I found the right combination of cool temps, morning dew and crosswalk paint that caused me to have a 10 mph low-side. Since then, I've taken to using my track tire warmers to 'season' a new set of tires before I ride them on the street. I honestly think it's not a single factor (mold release), but a combination of things that cause those sorts of accidents.

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I've had this happen. Two years ago I put a new set of Dunlop Q3's on my '14 ZX-6R. I was taking it easy, but I found the right combination of cool temps, morning dew and crosswalk paint that caused me to have a 10 mph low-side. Since then, I've taken to using my track tire warmers to 'season' a new set of tires before I ride them on the street. I honestly think it's not a single factor (mold release), but a combination of things that cause those sorts of accidents.

 

When I get new tires, I remove the wheel and bring it by car to the shop. I watch the tire get mounted, bring it home and balance it. Remount the wheel on the bike and check the tire pressure. Lowndes - no, the pressure was definitely set. I check it with a good quality gauge, and then put a TPMS sensor on the new valve stem and confirm it on the TPM display before riding. I didn't scrub the tire, but never have on the other 20-30 front tires I've bought. It was a cool day, the tires were probably 45-50 degrees F. There's a very small chance that at that corner I might have turned and gone over a small (8 inches?) shut off valve cover. Not talking about a 3 foot manhole cover. I don't think I touched it, but it is possible. But, that would mean that all of the squirm that I felt for the next 200 miles was mostly in my head.....

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But, that would mean that all of the squirm that I felt for the next 200 miles was mostly in my head.....

 

Could be possible, generally after I feel a squirm, hear a noise, feel a vibration and fix the issue, I'm hypersensitive to the standard operation of the bike and its little nuances.

 

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Lone_RT_rider
One thing people are forgetting is that the slick stuff on the outside of the tire that we normally have to scrub off is tire mold release agent. Depending on the tire producing machine, that agent can be applied manually. It sounds like there is a possibility that they person working that machine might have gotten a bit over zealous with the application.

 

Afternoon Lone_RT_rider

 

Actually it was mentioned in a post above but most motorcycle tire manufactures don't use a release agent any longer..

 

Ok, but something has to be used to keep the rubber from sticking to the inside of the mold. It may be an additive to the rubber compound. It may also be a way they have changed the surface of the mold so it needs less prep. It could be a different process time (dwell time) in the mold that keeps the rubber at a temp that allows it to come out of the mold easier.

 

Anyone that has dealt with molding rubber would be skeptical of a statement saying they no longer use release agent. Something still has to be done to get that tire to release without ripping the outer are of the molded surface.

 

"We no longer use release agents in the mold" sounds more like a statement from attorneys, not the actual manufacturing engineers.

 

Edited by Lone_RT_rider
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One thing people are forgetting is that the slick stuff on the outside of the tire that we normally have to scrub off is tire mold release agent. Depending on the tire producing machine, that agent can be applied manually. It sounds like there is a possibility that they person working that machine might have gotten a bit over zealous with the application.

 

Afternoon Lone_RT_rider

 

Actually it was mentioned in a post above but most motorcycle tire manufactures don't use a release agent any longer..

 

Ok, but something has to be used to keep the rubber from sticking to the inside of the mold. It may be an additive to the rubber compound. It may also be a way they have changed the surface of the mold so it needs less prep. It could be a different process time (dwell time) in the mold that keeps the rubber at a temp that allows it to come out of the mold easier.

 

Anyone that has dealt with molding rubber would be skeptical of a statement saying they no longer use release agent. Something still has to be done to get that tire to release without ripping the outer are of the molded surface.

 

"We no longer use release agents in the mold" sounds more like a statement from attorneys, not the actual manufacturing engineers.

 

Smoother molds,...we use it in our manufacturing and don't use any type of release. The smoother the mold, the easier it comes off.

 

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One thing people are forgetting is that the slick stuff on the outside of the tire that we normally have to scrub off is tire mold release agent. Depending on the tire producing machine, that agent can be applied manually. It sounds like there is a possibility that they person working that machine might have gotten a bit over zealous with the application.

 

Afternoon Lone_RT_rider

 

Actually it was mentioned in a post above but most motorcycle tire manufactures don't use a release agent any longer..

 

Ok, but something has to be used to keep the rubber from sticking to the inside of the mold. It may be an additive to the rubber compound. It may also be a way they have changed the surface of the mold so it needs less prep. It could be a different process time (dwell time) in the mold that keeps the rubber at a temp that allows it to come out of the mold easier.

 

Anyone that has dealt with molding rubber would be skeptical of a statement saying they no longer use release agent. Something still has to be done to get that tire to release without ripping the outer are of the molded surface.

 

"We no longer use release agents in the mold" sounds more like a statement from attorneys, not the actual manufacturing engineers.

 

 

Morning Lone_RT_rider

 

They don't have to use a mold release agent (most US auto tires that I deal with don't use it anymore). They can remove the tire from the mold while still hot enough to not stick, use compressed air to blow the tire free, use special mold housings that are Teflon coated, etc.

 

I don't know how accurate it is/was but I used to use the tire label as a basic guide. If the tire label was stuck to the tire tread area & needs to be worked at to get off then the tire is not slick from any type of mold release. If the tire doesn't have a stuck on tire label, or the label wraps around the tire carcass but not stuck to the tire rubber, or it is not stuck on completely then I would suspect a slick tire tread surface.

 

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Lone_RT_rider
Smoother molds,...we use it in our manufacturing and don't use any type of release. The smoother the mold, the easier it comes off.

 

LD and DR,

 

It's been a while since I toured the Michelin facilities in SC, but the air process was something they used there for at least car tire production. I had just forgotten that part of the process. Using PTFE makes sense, just polishing the mold to a ultra smooth surface does not. After 20% of the total shot life of the mold, a polished surface will start to degrade (more or less, depending on material compound). That just requires too much tool maintenance.

 

Most of my experience comes from a gasket and o-ring background from Fuel systems and cooling systems (FKM, EPDM and NBR). Thanks for the info on this. As my grandfather said, learn something new every day until the day they close the casket. :)

 

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Rode this afternoon for about 100 miles. All of the squirm is gone. I'm not at full lean yet, but working to it.

 

Unless I accept that I nicked one of the small metal covers in the asphalt at the corner, I have no other clear idea why this particular tire was more slippery than any other front tire I've ever had mounted. The RS3 tire is riding like any other now. I'll probably scrub my next new tire just to be sure next time.

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I have on occasion been behind a garbage truck dripping something from the back. Maybe water, cooking oil? or some mystery of thrown away fluids. All just pouring onto the road and ready to cause some mystery about release agent left on a new tire. People around me will park their car on the road and put wheel gloss on. That leaves 4 good sizes patches of slippery as far as I can tell. Are we sure it was really a tire problem? Mike

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The corner is so close to my house that I have walked it several times since. I didn't see any foreign substances that day or after. I resigned myself that I probably clipped a water or gas shut off cover in the street right at the turn . However, there was a post on one of the BMW Facebook groups by a guy with the same RS3 front tire with the same date code. His tire developed cracks in the treads after about 2000 miles. So maybe there was a problem with that particular batch of tires. Date code is 4916.

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I must of got one of the same batch. I replaced the rear in Cleveland Ohio coming back from the UN last year via Newfoundland.

 

In 2k miles the left side of the tire was ribbed and it slipped out on me at least 4 times coming home on dry clean pavement at less than max lean angles ( The wife was on back) . Very slippery rear tire, the worst I've ever had. At the time my getting way worn out front PR4 did not slip out. That would have been even more of a problem.

 

Never again will I buy the BS3/Rs3? It came off as soon as I got home at less than 3k miles on it.

 

 

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Richard,

 

I read the referenced dissertation on breaking in new tires. I say Boulderdash. Nay, BALDERDASH. This was obviously written by an unGodly collaboration of the LEGAL and MARKETING DEPARTMENT lads that are too timid to ride a 20-year-old 50cc Vespa straightaway to the market on a sunny day. Ergo; what is a roadway pavement but an endlessly uncoiled abrasive surface virtually identical to a flexible abrasive medium on a belt, at least as far as your tires see it??

 

To sum up their piece, "Shiny sells; scuffed sticks". Shiny just means no one else has ridden it, which appeals to the new buyer as a virgin bride appeals to the inexperienced groom. I think I'll have the scuffed, thank you. (Now, THAT seems weird because I buy used bikes and NEW tires!!, But, please, no virgins, thank you.)

 

I would posit there is a difference between SHINY-NEW-TIRE slippery and COLD-TIRE not-too-grippy. And, assuming their logic; just heating new tires will fix the problem and scuffing them would be a "disrespect". Ha!! I PURCHASED THEM TO WEAR THEM OUT!!

 

I KNOW what works, and it ain't that hard. Just sayin'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 months later...
Michaelr11

Update on this thread. Yesterday I replaced that Dunlop RS3 front tire with a new Michelin PR3. This new Michelin has a date code of 0618.

 

What a difference! I've replace lots of tires on this bike and my others, so I know the feeling of a new tire replacing a worn one. This new PR3 was sticky and planted to the pavement right from the beginning. I never regained confidence in the RS3 tire, and it took a couple of miles on the PR3 to shake off my concern about that new tire slick. Within 5 miles I was comfortable, and within 50 miles I was leaning over like I haven't for the past 3 months. The RS3 was the 4th one I put on the bike, but it might be the last one. No doubt in my mind that I had a bad tire.

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Thanks for updating. I put a set of PR3's on about a month ago. The scubbing in period coincided with lots of sand / grit on the roads from winter traction use, so I couldn't really tell how good/bad they felt at the start. I'm still experimenting with tire pressures a bit. I think I've been running them on the hard side. Do you have favorite pressures?

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Michaelr11
Thanks for updating. ................................ I'm still experimenting with tire pressures a bit. I think I've been running them on the hard side. Do you have favorite pressures?

 

I run them on the hard side too. Typically 38-40 on the front and 39-41 on the rear.

 

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Antimatter

Good to to hear the update. I just put a new set of Bridgestones on the Burgman, and have been mincing around until I get 100 or so miles on them. With a 15" front and a 14" rear, I don't have a set of warmers that will work, unfortunately. There are some folks who have the feel to ride a set of new tires hard right off the bat. I just have to accept that I'm not one of them.

Edited by Antimatter
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Mold release or not, I always give a new tire a quick swab with a piece of terry cloth soaked with isopropyl alcohol. I haven't been down yet. Put a new Pirelli Angel GT on the rear last week, to match the front tire put on a thousand miles earlier. Cornering is much nicer with round tires at both ends.

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Bill_Walker

I put on a set of RS3s on my way to Weaverville on May 16. Never had a problem with traction except on some tar snakes on CA-3, and I certainly wasn't taking it easy. I'd never had a problem on California tar snakes before (on PR3s/PR4s), but my assumption is that was a different tar snake compound, not the RS3. Riders with me on other tires also complained.

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Michaelr11
I put on a set of RS3s on my way to Weaverville on May 16. Never had a problem with traction except on some tar snakes on CA-3, and I certainly wasn't taking it easy. I'd never had a problem on California tar snakes before (on PR3s/PR4s), but my assumption is that was a different tar snake compound, not the RS3. Riders with me on other tires also complained.

 

As I said, no problems with three previous RS3 front tires. I am convinced now that this was a specific BAD tire. Possibly a batch from the 4916 manufacture date.

 

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