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runs rough when warm


Matth3w

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99 1100rt got a decent overhaul over the winter and living in Ohio its finally been nice enough to ride it. from start to about 3 bars on the temp indicator it runs like its brand new off the shelf but as the bike warms up and especially at full op temp it sputters at WOT. im guessing from early or late ignition? any other adjustments for this? and yes the carbs were synced.

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99 1100rt got a decent overhaul over the winter and living in Ohio its finally been nice enough to ride it. from start to about 3 bars on the temp indicator it runs like its brand new off the shelf but as the bike warms up and especially at full op temp it sputters at WOT. im guessing from early or late ignition? any other adjustments for this? and yes the carbs were synced.

 

Morning Matth3w

 

Your problem doesn't sound like either late ignition or early ignition as neither will cause a sputter or stutter.

 

We need you to fully explain (as in depth as possible) the warm engine sputter, like how much throttle does it begin at, how long does it continue, does it do it at part throttle under a hill climbing load or ONLY at WOT. (we need WAY more info to give you much help on this).

 

What was done during the overhaul?

 

Without much more to go on I guess the first thing to suggest that you do a fuel pressure & fuel flow test. Or at least do a good fuel return-line flow test. This will show if your engine is getting enough fuel delivery at enough pressure.

 

Does your bike still have the original CCP in the fuse box? Does it even have a CCP in the fuse box?

 

Is the R/H spark plug wire well clear of the throttle body cam at wide open throttle?

 

Last thing-- your 2099 BMW 1100RT is fuel injected so doesn't have carburetors, it has throttle bodies.

 

 

 

 

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99 1100rt got a decent overhaul over the winter and living in Ohio its finally been nice enough to ride it. from start to about 3 bars on the temp indicator it runs like its brand new off the shelf but as the bike warms up and especially at full op temp it sputters at WOT. im guessing from early or late ignition? any other adjustments for this? and yes the carbs were synced.

 

What did this overhaul consist of (exactly)?

 

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it only happens when you jump on it so any gear and WOT any RPM, it happens for maybe a second if i then clears up then does it again so it will fade in and out but is definitely running much more rough than when cold. new plugs, coils, wires, oil and filter, fuel pump, air filter, TBs were taken off and soaked and cleaned. new injectors and new packing in muffler. I know the fuel pressure is good because my first start up I had allot of popping (another post about this) really rough idle and exhaust popping and fuel pressure was one of the checks. had the TBs synced because I had 170 psi in right cyl and 160 in left and was told it would draw more/less air. the CCP is that chip for emissions right? its still there and I have no evap can or cat. the popping was cleared when I drained the gas and refueled with fresh 93.

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it only happens when you jump on it so any gear and WOT any RPM, it happens for maybe a second if i then clears up then does it again so it will fade in and out but is definitely running much more rough than when cold. new plugs, coils, wires, oil and filter, fuel pump, air filter, TBs were taken off and soaked and cleaned. new injectors and new packing in muffler. I know the fuel pressure is good because my first start up I had allot of popping (another post about this) really rough idle and exhaust popping and fuel pressure was one of the checks. had the TBs synced because I had 170 psi in right cyl and 160 in left and was told it would draw more/less air. the CCP is that chip for emissions right? its still there and I have no evap can or cat. the popping was cleared when I drained the gas and refueled with fresh 93.

 

Evening Matth3w

 

Still not enough info to pinpoint the problem but the "only happening at WOT in any gear" kind of points to either lacking enough fuel flow or a weak spark (either can cause that WOT problem).

 

I'm still going to suggest a fuel return flow test just to eliminate that. Be a shame to chase a number of complicated possibilities only to have it track back to a low fuel flow problem.

 

With the new ignition parts it would also be a good idea to measure the ignition system's secondary side resistance from the plug wire spark plug terminal on one side back through the coil's secondary to the plug wire's spark plug terminal on the other side (total resistance). This should also be eliminated before moving on to other possibilities.

 

Have you verified that the R/H spark plug wire is not near, or contacting, the R/H side throttle body cam at WOT? (this should also be eliminated)

 

Also, make sure that the o2 sensor's pig tail wire is not zip tied or routed along, or near, the R/H spark plug wire & that it's not hanging down onto the hot exhaust system.

 

Lacking more specific info we are still in the guessing stage on this.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

R/H plug wire not hampering anything, pigtail is tied up and not bare or touching anything, fuel return is flowing steady and strong, resistance on coils are good. so I removed the yellow relay and it ran worse. I reset motronic by removing fuse 5 and driving it around a bit and it actually seemed to get a little better but not completely. here is a picture of my spark plug, both sides look the same, to me it looks normal but what do you think? https://postimg.cc/image/4ugqfn1nx/ I also tried running it with no air filter and with a rag in the filter to block air to compensate if it was lean or rich and nothing changed.

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Im going to try and record a short ride, it almost sounds like the cylinders are fighting each other which would be caused by early ignition right? Is my octane level not high enough?

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here is a picture of my spark plug, both sides look the same, to me it looks normal but what do you think? https://postimg.cc/image/4ugqfn1nx/

 

Morning Matth3w

 

Spark plug electrode gap looks wide, what electrode gap are you using? Those at not stock looking spark plugs, what are you using for spark plugs???? (the electrode gap just looks too large in the picture so maybe it is OK but just looks funny in the picture)

 

You don't want over .040" as your conventional spark plug wires are not thick silicone high-KV-rated so with a very wide spark plug electrode gap the spark can arc right through the plug wire insulation to ground. Plus with a large electrode gap the coil can arc internally as the BMW coil isn't a designed for wide gap plugs.

 

If electrode gap is over .040" you should try new spark plugs that come as new with around .032"-.035" gap.

 

If your current plugs have a wide (measured) electrode gap then you can T-R-Y to adjust it narrower but that isn't recommended on modern wide-gap exotic metal spark plugs as it is very difficult to get a smaller electrode gap without angling the ground electrode in relation to the center electrode.

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Perhaps it has to do with gas flow, not being enough at WOT, where the flow is higher than at let's say, idle speed.

 

Dan.

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Perhaps it has to do with gas flow, not being enough at WOT, where the flow is higher than at let's say, idle speed.

 

Dan.

 

Morning Dan

 

He was asked to run a fuel return flow test in a previous posting & his answer was "fuel return is flowing steady and strong", so that indicates plenty of fuel availability.

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They are Autolite XS3923 Xtreme Sport Iridium. I installed them over the winter and bought them at my local parts store, they were recommended as "the best" I didn't mess with the gap ill have to check what it is.

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the gap is .054 so im guessing that way to big... but why would it idle fine then bog under load? another thing i forgot to ask is after resetting motronic via fuse #5 how far do I need to drive for it to remap?

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the gap is .054 so im guessing that way to big... but why would it idle fine then bog under load? another thing i forgot to ask is after resetting motronic via fuse #5 how far do I need to drive for it to remap?

 

Evening Matth3w

 

It's much easier to light off combustion at idle than under higher load higher RPM's. I would definitely try a different spark plug with a .035" gap or at least try reducing you present plug gap to around .035".

 

Difficult to say how far you have to ride to get full learned adaptive updates in all cells but it will get mostly updated in most areas with a decent ride.

 

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re gaped new plugs to .035, ran the same, installed the old spark plugs no change. I just dont understand how it went from running good last summer to crap this year after some tune up changes. I recorded the sound of the bike and put it on youtube, maybe someone can diagnose by ear. I am about ready to give up.

 

Here is the link

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TBs were taken off and soaked and cleaned. new packing in muffler..

 

These 2 elements concern me.

 

Did you screw up on the TB's such that at WOT one TB isn't responding correctly. Second, is the Silencer over packed and the bike can't breath at WOT.

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roger 04 rt

Matthew, I listened to your audio. Your bike sounds awful, more like a two-stroke with a bad carb. What did you do to the exhaust? Does it have a catalytic converter? How about the silencer, what's up with that, packed with what?

 

Also, when you removed and soaked the TBs, what did you do with the TPS, did you leave it on? If not how did you reinstall it? If you did leave it on did you soak it in cleaner?

 

Check that the throttles are lifting off the stop screws at idle at exactly the same moment and then hitting the limit stops for WOT at the same moment.

 

Since last summer you've had 3 threads: one on “surging”, one on “popping” and now this one on “rough when warm”. And at the end of the “surging” thread you mentioned an ABS problem. My gut tells me you need to go through the bike carefully as you tune it, do the valves, check the compression, etc.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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re gaped new plugs to .035, ran the same, installed the old spark plugs no change. I just dont understand how it went from running good last summer to crap this year after some tune up changes. I recorded the sound of the bike and put it on youtube, maybe someone can diagnose by ear. I am about ready to give up.

 

Here is the link

 

Morning Matth3w

 

That bikes sounds SICK, SICK, SICK!

 

Difficult to diagnose from a sound on the internet, especially with a non stock exhaust system, but it sort of sounds like it is regressing to running on mostly one cylinder above idle.

 

You really need to start by doing what Roger suggested above "Check that the throttles are lifting off the stop screws at idle at exactly the same moment and then hitting the limit stops for WOT at the same moment".

 

Also check the R/H throttle body right where the throttle cable enters the cable adjuster to make sure that the cable in fully seated down inside the adjuster & not sitting on top of the adjuster outer rim (common problem).

 

You are definitely lacking something as far as fuel, fuel/air, spark, or exhaust scavenging, etc.

 

With your open & loud exhaust you are probably fighting some exhaust reversion issues to go along with the basic problem so that makes it difficult to tell much by ear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Im pretty sure its a basic slip on exhaust that basically a straight pipe, the very end has a cup and its forced to go around it but not through the mesh, the wrap I got https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011PWVYEM/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 was just barely long enough to go around the mesh one time so if its over packed then the material itself was too thick. I took TPS off and soaked TBs in the 1 gallon can of carb cleaner you can get at the auto store that comes in a paint can with a little basket. then sprayed them off with TB cleaner. TPS was remounted at suggested specs. I also think it is only running on one cylinder as I said in a previous post it sounds like its fighting each other. no throttle cable adjustments were made but ill check the stops after work.

 

correct dirtrider I have other posts about same bike, I got the bike from my uncle where it sat for 4 years in a barn and was told it had "burnt valves" but I had good compression and was told you cant have both so I ran through basics to get it running and rode it last summer into fall just fine, over winter did the tune up and had popping exhaust after the tune up which was fixed by emptying fuel tank and refilling with good fuel or it was a coincidence and something else was done IDK about. it ran good for one day when ohio had a 70 degree day in the middle of winter. it sat until winter finally decided to go away and my first run it started acting up. I ordered a manometer and am ggoing to check that again or does the sound of the bike sound like its more than just a BBS adjustment?

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170 left 180 right . also the right cylinder gets much hotter than the left so if its only firing on one I think its the left thats not firing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Okay so I have a very nice bright blue spark on both sides, tps is adjusted to .39 and TBs are syncd. good compression on both cylinders. idles good and will even run smooth until the throttle is turned passed 1/4 to full it chokes. sounds like a one cylinder lawn mower. i ran one cylinder at a time solo at idle, and they are both idling fine so w.e is happened its not happening until 1/4 turn of throttle and beyond which from my knowledge is the TPS job. I never tried the zero = zero thing but within the notes it says the #3 grey wire on the TPS takes over the fuel and air mixture at WOT. Do I possible have a bad TPS? what voltage readouts should I get on all the other wires and again i have it set at .39 on the white/red #1 wire

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dirtrider
Okay so I have a very nice bright blue spark on both sides, tps is adjusted to .39 and TBs are syncd. good compression on both cylinders. idles good and will even run smooth until the throttle is turned passed 1/4 to full it chokes. sounds like a one cylinder lawn mower. i ran one cylinder at a time solo at idle, and they are both idling fine so w.e is happened its not happening until 1/4 turn of throttle and beyond which from my knowledge is the TPS job. I never tried the zero = zero thing but within the notes it says the #3 grey wire on the TPS takes over the fuel and air mixture at WOT. Do I possible have a bad TPS? what voltage readouts should I get on all the other wires and again i have it set at .39 on the white/red #1 wire

 

 

Morning Matth3w

 

Your TPS voltage outputs would definitely be worth testing.

 

Key on, engine not running, CHOKE OFF-- Put your meter between pins 1 and 4 then s-l-o-w-l-y rotate the L/H Throttle Body cam open. It (voltage) should scroll smoothly from just under 0.4v to 5v between pins (1 & 4) for about the first 1/4 of rotation.

 

Next, key on, engine not running, CHOKE OFF-- Put your meter between pins 3 and 4 then again slowly rotate throttle TB cam open. It (voltage) should go smoothly from 0v to 5v between pins (3 & 4) from closed throttle to wide open throttle

 

White/red wire is pin #1

Green/yellow wire is pin #2

White/gray wire is pin #3

Brown/gray wire is pin #4

 

Don't bother with 0=0 as that is basically outdated incorrect info on setting the TPS. (if you are set at .390v at the proper idle RPM then no need to redo that.

 

 

 

 

 

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dirtrider
Its the opposite on 3 and 4. It goes from 4.8 volts to .15

 

Afternoon Matth3w

 

Are you running the throttle body throttle cam FULL travel?

 

Are you measuring between the White/gray wire at (pin #3) & Brown/gray wire at pin (#4)?

 

 

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Ok so I was using wrong pins, it is now .5 to 4.73 but my battery ia low from all the messing around and only has 12.6 volts would that effect it? Either way I'm charging it now and will re test

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dirtrider
Ok so I was using wrong pins, it is now .5 to 4.73 but my battery ia low from all the messing around and only has 12.6 volts would that effect it? Either way I'm charging it now and will re test

 

Afternoon Matth3w

 

.5 to 4.73 is OK as long as it scrolls up & down smoothly with no jumps or lags in the voltage following the Throttle Body cam movement.

 

 

 

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After the charge I am now getting 0.1 to 3.98 am I getting a bad connection or did I misread it last time

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dirtrider
After the charge I am now getting 0.1 to 3.98 am I getting a bad connection or did I misread it last time

 

 

Afternoon Matth3w

 

First, make sure that your meter is working good & positively accurate.

 

Then disconnect the TPS & measure between Green/yellow wire at pin #2 & the Brown/gray wire at pin #4 -- you need to measure a very constant 5.0 volts.

 

If the voltage is OK & stable then look for a poor meter connection with TPS connected or possibly a TPS problem.

 

If you are not getting 5 volts across pin 2 to 4, or at least very close to 5 volts, then measure between Green/yellow wire at pin #2 & battery (-) post looking for a stable 5 volts.

 

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TPS connector off, #2 and #4 4.97 volts. TPS connected. #3 and #4 WOT 3.91. tried with a cheaper pocket size analog meter gave me same results so my digital is fine.

 

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If I twist the pot as far as it goes counter clockwise I get 4.71 volts but then my #1 and #4 is wayyyy off

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dirtrider
If I twist the pot as far as it goes counter clockwise I get 4.71 volts but then my #1 and #4 is wayyyy off

 

 

Evening Matth3w

 

What is the voltage swing between the White/gray wire at (pin #3) & Brown/gray wire at pin (#4) when the pin 1 to pin 4 voltage is set correctly?

 

If you are using a low quality meter the meter load might be effecting the voltage max reading.

 

 

 

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when 1 and 4 is correct all i get at 3 and 4 is 3.91. its a fluke multi-meter I really dont think there is anything wrong with my meter. ive decided that the way it sounds that its 100% running lean past 1/4 throttle. so there is 2 things I did to confirm this. first I adjusted the pot for the WOT and turned it all the way counter clockwise so that I would get 4.7~ volts at 3 and 4. (doing this made the bike run very rich at idle). then I stuffed a rag into the center of the air filter. my theory is if its being starved of fuel then starve it of air. I did this went for a run and the bike clearly didnt have the get up it should have but it was night and day difference from before, engine sounded strong, was able to run WOT without any bogging and went through all the gears in about 8 seconds which was about 110 mph.. so clearly its running lean but why? I ordered a used TPS from ebay to see if that will work.

Edited by Matth3w
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Hi Matth3w, whilst you are looking at the throttle bodies...when you had them off, did you disassemble the throttle stop screw?

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dirtrider
when 1 and 4 is correct all i get at 3 and 4 is 3.91. its a fluke multi-meter I really dont think there is anything wrong with my meter. ive decided that the way it sounds that its 100% running lean past 1/4 throttle. so there is 2 things I did to confirm this. first I adjusted the pot for the WOT and turned it all the way counter clockwise so that I would get 4.7~ volts at 3 and 4. (doing this made the bike run very rich at idle). then I stuffed a rag into the center of the air filter. my theory is if its being starved of fuel then starve it of air. I did this went for a run and the bike clearly didnt have the get up it should have but it was night and day difference from before, engine sounded strong, was able to run WOT without any bogging and went through all the gears in about 8 seconds which was about 110 mph.. so clearly its running lean but why? I ordered a used TPS from ebay to see if that will work.

 

Afternoon Matth3w

 

Still waiting for the voltage that you measured (key-on) between pin2 & pin 4 with TPS unplugged?

 

Or, we will have to wait until you try the new TPS that you ordered.

 

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TPS connector off, #2 and #4 4.97 volts. TPS connected. #3 and #4 WOT 3.91. tried with a cheaper pocket size analog meter gave me same results so my digital is fine.

 

 

you must of overlooked this post.

 

No I did not mess with the stops.

 

Is the TPS going bad a possibility?

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dirtrider
TPS connector off, #2 and #4 4.97 volts. TPS connected. #3 and #4 WOT 3.91. tried with a cheaper pocket size analog meter gave me same results so my digital is fine.

 

 

Evening Matth3w

 

 

You must of overlooked this post.--I did read the posting but did miss the "TPS connector off, #2 and #4 4.97 volts" part.

No I did not mess with the stops.--That's good

 

Is the TPS going bad a possibility? --Yes, it's a possibility but it's also a possibility that your TPS isn't being rotated far enough to get #3 and #4 up to a full 5v output. Personally I'm more concerned that the voltage scrolls up & down smoothly with no jumps & dips.

 

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with the tip connected but off the bike in my hand I can rotate the sensor myself , probe on #3 and #4 and it will go all the way to near 5 volts. visually looking at the end of the butterfly valve that goes inside the sensor I can watch it rotate all the way to the throttle stop and If it is not a solid link which im sure it is, it is NOT mis aligned inside the TB. Like I said 3/4 will read 4.5~ volts if the pot is turned all the way counterclockwise but then 1/4 is almost 2 volts at idle so its waaayyy off. I am supposed to get the "new/used" TPS on saturday, I will do the same exact bench tests to see what I get.

 

 

Is the voltage supposed to jump and or dip? because mine does not not even a little, its a pretty smooth increase all the way to WOT.

Edited by Matth3w
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with the tip connected but off the bike in my hand I can rotate the sensor myself , probe on #3 and #4 and it will go all the way to near 5 volts. visually looking at the end of the butterfly valve that goes inside the sensor I can watch it rotate all the way to the throttle stop and If it is not a solid link which im sure it is, it is NOT mis aligned inside the TB. Like I said 3/4 will read 4.5~ volts if the pot is turned all the way counterclockwise but then 1/4 is almost 2 volts at idle so its waaayyy off. I am supposed to get the "new/used" TPS on saturday, I will do the same exact bench tests to see what I get.

 

 

Is the voltage supposed to jump and or dip? because mine does not not even a little, its a pretty smooth increase all the way to WOT.

 

Morning Matth3w

 

Voltage is not supposed to supposed to jump or dip ( jumping and or dipping) signifies a defective TPS. Voltage is supposed to move very smoothly & predictably both up & down.

 

 

 

 

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Got the new/used tps today and I'm getting same results. With 1 and 4 set at .36 3 and 4 maxes at 3.91. Smooth increase in volts. Did I get a bad tps or what because I'm getting 4.9 volts to the tps on 2 and 4.

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Got the new/used tps today and I'm getting same results. With 1 and 4 set at .36 3 and 4 maxes at 3.91. Smooth increase in volts. Did I get a bad tps or what because I'm getting 4.9 volts to the tps on 2 and 4.

 

Morning Matth3w

 

I'm pretty sure that you didn't get a bad TPS as those things seldom fail & when they do it usually causes jumping non steady voltage scrolling.

 

3.91 v is possibly all you will be able to get due to limited TPS rotation on your Throttle Bodies .

 

You might monitor the voltage on pin 2 to pin 4 with the TPS installed & throttle cam run to wide open (If OK then it had better stay at the 4.9 volts through the entire throttle sweep)

 

You might also check the pin 2 voltage from pin 2 back to the battery (-) post (see if you can find that .1v loss)

 

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With the bike off I get 12.89 volts at the battery. With key on I only get 11.89. And that's when I test everything. I don't think its supposed to drop a volt like that right? Bike running I get 13.5 volts.

 

Tps connected, probe on 2 and 4 or terminal ( - ) rotating throttle voltage stays at 4.9.

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The "trouble code connector" under the seat, do you think that would tell me something if it was motronic related?

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With the bike off I get 12.89 volts at the battery. With key on I only get 11.89. And that's when I test everything. I don't think its supposed to drop a volt like that right? Bike running I get 13.5 volts.

 

Tps connected, probe on 2 and 4 or terminal ( - ) rotating throttle voltage stays at 4.9.

 

Afternoon Matth3w

 

 

That key-on voltage is a little low but as long as the engine starts then it makes no difference. That 5v into the TPS is heavily regulated so variance in battery voltage (within reason) won't effect it.

 

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The "trouble code connector" under the seat, do you think that would tell me something if it was motronic related?

 

Afternoon Matth3w

 

Possibly, but the BMW 1100 Ma 2.2 system has very little usable info as far as troubleshooting system functions go.

 

On the BMW 1100 2.2 systems you are better off testing the inputs manually.

 

 

 

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I dont know what else to do, how am I supposed to track the missing .1 volt? do you think that missing .1 volt is really effecting the missing full volt on 3 and 4?

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I just read on another forum that a guy with an 1100s tried out iridium plugs and saw it was making his bike run lean, he was using a program called "AFxied" I also installed new iridium plugs over the winter, Im wondering if there is any truth to that... I will try in the morning.

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I just read on another forum that a guy with an 1100s tried out iridium plugs and saw it was making his bike run lean, he was using a program called "AFxied" I also installed new iridium plugs over the winter, Im wondering if there is any truth to that... I will try in the morning.

I dont know what else to do, how am I supposed to track the missing .1 volt? do you think that missing .1 volt is really effecting the missing full volt on 3 and 4?

 

Morning Matth3w

 

NO, I don't think that missing .1 volt is the problem, I just don't like unaccounted for oddities.

 

If your TPS pins 1 to 4 are scrolling voltage up & down smoothly, pins 1 to 4 are under .400 volts but above .350 volts at choke-off curb idle, & your TPS pins 3 to 4 are scrolling voltage up & down smoothly through the throttle stroke then it sounds like your problem isn't in the TPS.

 

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I just read on another forum that a guy with an 1100s tried out iridium plugs and saw it was making his bike run lean, he was using a program called "AFxied" I also installed new iridium plugs over the winter, Im wondering if there is any truth to that... I will try in the morning.

 

 

Morning Matth3w

 

AFxied is not a program it is an o2 sensor output modifier (makes the engine electronics add more fuel based on a modified o2 sensor input signal).

 

 

Iridium plugs being iridium should have no effect on the engine operation.--- BUT!, most iridium plugs are made for COP systems, or for thick silicone spark plug wire systems so come with very wide electrode gaps. It's that very wide electrode gap that can cause the issues in standard coil, standard spark plug wire, systems.

 

Electricity (ie SPARK) is very lazy, it always takes the easiest path to low (ground). With wide gap spark plugs that can force the spark to seek an unintended path (like through the sides of a normal spark plug wire, or across poorly spaced poorly insulated coil windings, or even down the sides or short porcelain spark plugs.

 

If your Iridium plugs have more than about .040" electrode gap then THAT is putting an unhealthy load on you ignition system components.

 

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I bent them to match .40

 

Should I just get AFfixed and have it run richer since lean is my problem or does motronic only use o2 at idle?

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