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HES questions


RAMBLIN RED

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RAMBLIN RED

Just bought a nice 2000 R11RT with 47k miles. Started easily at point of sale, so I loaded it on a trailer and drove home thru three gully washers and now it won't start.

My thought was the hall sensor and after reading Dana Hagar's step by step repair I wondered when BMW changed to hi temp wire.

Also, I bought wire from Aircraft Spruce the last time I did this on my '96 and now I can't find it. Any Ideas before I jump in?

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Just bought a nice 2000 R11RT with 47k miles. Started easily at point of sale, so I loaded it on a trailer and drove home thru three gully washers and now it won't start.

My thought was the hall sensor and after reading Dana Hagar's step by step repair I wondered when BMW changed to hi temp wire.

Also, I bought wire from Aircraft Spruce the last time I did this on my '96 and now I can't find it. Any Ideas before I jump in?

 

Morning RAMBLIN RED

 

Start with the easy stuff-- Is the side stand UP?

 

If side stand up then see if tac does weird things as you crank the starter.

 

It could be the HES but if you trailered the bike through the rain & didn't ride it then not quite as likely. (pull a spark plug wire then check for spark while cranking)

 

 

 

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RAMBLIN RED

Fuel pump runs for a couple seconds, Tach does a little bounce during that period.

Will not turn over with side stand down, Side stand up it turns over and tach does not move.

 

Charging the battery right now but it almost started after two days of drying out so there must be spark

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Fuel pump runs for a couple seconds, Tach does a little bounce during that period.

Will not turn over with side stand down, Side stand up it turns over and tach does not move.

 

Charging the battery right now but it almost started after two days of drying out so there must be spark

 

Morning RAMBLIN RED

 

Almost started could mean almost enough spark.

 

Pull a plug wire, stick an old park plug in the wire with the electrode gap opened to about 3/16" lay on cylinder head & crank engine.

 

Pale yellow or no spark= no start

 

Orangish color spark= might start

 

Bluish snappy spark= should start

 

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RAMBLIN RED

At this point all I can say about the battery is that the battery tender says it is fully charged

Hope to test the spark tomorrow

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RAMBLIN RED
Fuel pump runs for a couple seconds, Tach does a little bounce during that period.

Will not turn over with side stand down, Side stand up it turns over and tach does not move.

 

Charging the battery right now but it almost started after two days of drying out so there must be spark

 

Morning RAMBLIN RED

 

Almost started could mean almost enough spark.

 

Pull a plug wire, stick an old park plug in the wire with the electrode gap opened to about 3/16" lay on cylinder head & crank engine.

 

Pale yellow or no spark= no start

 

Orangish color spark= might start

 

Bluish snappy spark= should start

 

Fat orange spark

 

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Fuel pump runs for a couple seconds, Tach does a little bounce during that period.

Will not turn over with side stand down, Side stand up it turns over and tach does not move.

 

Charging the battery right now but it almost started after two days of drying out so there must be spark

 

Morning RAMBLIN RED

 

Almost started could mean almost enough spark.

 

Pull a plug wire, stick an old park plug in the wire with the electrode gap opened to about 3/16" lay on cylinder head & crank engine.

 

Pale yellow or no spark= no start

 

Orangish color spark= might start

 

Bluish snappy spark= should start

 

Fat orange spark

 

 

Morning RAMBLIN RED

 

Fat orange spark across how large of an electrode gap?

 

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RAMBLIN RED

The spark jumped from the body of the plug to ground, maybe 1/8"

now there is no spark at all. I used alligator clips to insure a good connection from plug body to ground but there is nothing there.

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Remove and clean the sidestand, I had also thought it was my HES but found out the hard/expensive way it was probably the sidestand switch. Thanks to DR for teaching me a valuable lesson to keep it simple.

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RAMBLIN RED

With the side stand down the starter will not engage, with the side stand up starter works but no spark. The orange spark I mentioned above seems to be a one time thing.

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With the side stand down the starter will not engage, with the side stand up starter works but no spark. The orange spark I mentioned above seems to be a one time thing.

 

Morning RAMBLIN RED

 

A bad HES, or wet cracked wire insulation HES, usually doesn't give any spark (the HES doesn't provide the spark, it just tells the fueling computer when to trigger the ignition coil).

 

With the spark not being consistent it could still be the HES but with the spark being orange that could be pointing to something else.

 

Next course of action depends on how you want to proceed?

 

You could start by replacing (or re-wiring) the HES, might be the problem & might not, but regardless a BMW 1100RT should probably have the HES replaced, or at least re-wired, as the HES wiring WILL eventually go bad & leave you stranded.

 

Or you could start by using a voltmeter & measuring battery cranking voltage during engine cranking, then measuring voltage to the fuel injectors (green wire) at key on then during engine cranking, then measuring voltage to the coil (green wire) at key on then during engine cranking.

 

One more question: how did you tie the bike down on you trailer (ie where did you attach the straps to the front of the bike?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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RAMBLIN RED

Good morning D.R.,

The short pieces that go around the handle bars (what ever you call them) just contacted the bar itself not the wires, I was careful about that. Then the tie down strap to the trailer, compressing the fork.

 

Since, as you say,the HES needs attention anyway and I have 10' of 170 degree centigrade wire that is my next step. In fact I'm well into it. Creative vocabulary will follow, lol.

 

By the way, it's still pretty wet in there.

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RAMBLIN RED

Rewired the hes and re-assembled enough to test, still no spark.

since the new wires are individual and un-shielded, I grounded that wire to the hes plate. Was that a mistake?

 

that is, the clear wire that normally goes to the shield

Edited by RAMBLIN RED
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Rewired the hes and re-assembled enough to test, still no spark.

since the new wires are individual and un-shielded, I grounded that wire to the hes plate. Was that a mistake?

 

that is, the clear wire that normally goes to the shield

 

Afternoon RAMBLIN RED

 

Shouldn't be an issue grounding that shielding wire.

 

Have you tried disconnecting the battery for about an hour, the re-connecting & seeing if you have spark.

 

I'm not sure if you can lock the 1100 (Ma 2.2) out like locking the 1150 (Ma 2.4) but I suppose it is possible when playing with the HES.

 

Have you checked for 12v power to the green wires going to the ign coil & fuel injectors with key on? Green wires should have about 2-3 seconds of 12v at key on, then go out, then come back on during engine cranking.

 

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RAMBLIN RED

Good morning D.R.

Green wire to the coil has 12v constant or at least for the 20 sec. I tried. This is switch on

there are a couple of green wires to the tb so I checked both

the four wire plug to the side of the tb had 5v constant

the two wire plug to the injector shows .07v. Starting to sound expensive.

going to disconnect the battery for an hour and let you know the result, truly appreciate your help.

Edited by RAMBLIN RED
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Morning RAMBLIN RED

 

 

Green wire to the coil has 12v constant or at least for the 20 sec.--OK, that part is good.

 

there are a couple of green wires to the tb so I checked both

the four wire plug to the side of the tb had 5v constant--That would probably be the TPS & 5v input there is good.

 

 

the two wire plug to the injector shows .07v.--This should be around 12v for a couple of seconds at key on, the be above 10v during engine cranking. Re-check it & if still .07 volts then you have a problem in this circuit.

 

going to disconnect the battery for an hour and let you know the result, truly appreciate your help--yes, try this.

 

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RAMBLIN RED

The battery disconnect and reconnect now gives a 12.4 volt pulse on the injector. By pulse I mean it is present long enough for the meter to register it, maybe 1/2 sec. but it is there. still no spark.

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The battery disconnect and reconnect now gives a 12.4 volt pulse on the injector. By pulse I mean it is present long enough for the meter to register it, maybe 1/2 sec. but it is there. still no spark.

 

Afternoon RAMBLIN RED

 

It sort-of keeps pointing to the HES, or the coil, or the Motronic.

 

You probably should verify the HES is operating correctly, then ohm out the coil.

 

You also need to verify that you are getting an injector pulse (test light or voltmeter across the injector connector terminals).

 

I sent you (check your PM here) info on building an HES tester as well as well as ohm testing the coil info.

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RAMBLIN RED

The easiest check is the coil so that came first. Your pm suggested primary coil at .5 ohm. Mine read 1.1

secondary coil suggested reading at 13k ohm, mine read 7.3 k ohm.

 

Getting a12v. led on this sandbar will have to be an online purchase unless NAPA would have one but it must be done. gonna take some time.

 

so for the moment I will check the injector pulse and see how you feel about the coil

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The easiest check is the coil so that came first. Your pm suggested primary coil at .5 ohm. Mine read 1.1

secondary coil suggested reading at 13k ohm, mine read 7.3 k ohm.

 

Getting a12v. led on this sandbar will have to be an online purchase unless NAPA would have one but it must be done. gonna take some time.

 

so for the moment I will check the injector pulse and see how you feel about the coil

 

 

Afternoon

 

Your coil measurements are close as the info I sent was on the "how" to measure coil as there are actually different versions of coils on the BMW 1100 boxers.

 

The resistance in the old (gray) coil is usually pretty close to the manuals I have at 13K ohm for the secondary and 0.5 for the primary.

 

The later version (black-black/red coils) are around 7K for the secondary and about 1 ohm for the primary.

 

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RAMBLIN RED

Just a follow up on the injector pulse.......12v between the green wire and gnd. nothing between the connectors on the injector or the plug, just green wire to gnd.

 

On hold until led arrives june 14 thru 19

Edited by RAMBLIN RED
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Just a follow up on the injector pulse.......12v between the green wire and gnd. nothing between the connectors on the injector or the plug, just green wire to gnd.

 

On hold until led arrives june 14 thru 19

 

Afternoon RAMBLIN RED

 

12v between the green wire and gnd. nothing between the connectors on the injector or the plug, just green wire to gnd-- Were you cranking the engine during the test? The injectors only pulse during engine cranking or running.

 

 

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RAMBLIN RED

 

 

 

Afternoon RAMBLIN RED

 

12v between the green wire and gnd. nothing between the connectors on the injector or the plug, just green wire to gnd-- Were you cranking the engine during the test? The injectors only pulse during engine cranking or running.

 

 

Sorry I misunderstood......green wire to gnd, switch on 12v for maybe 1/2 sec, during cranking, nothing

meter across both sides of the injector plug during cranking, nothing

I hope one of those was what you need.

 

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Afternoon RAMBLIN RED

 

12v between the green wire and gnd. nothing between the connectors on the injector or the plug, just green wire to gnd-- Were you cranking the engine during the test? The injectors only pulse during engine cranking or running.

 

 

Sorry I misunderstood......green wire to gnd, switch on 12v for maybe 1/2 sec, during cranking, nothing

meter across both sides of the injector plug during cranking, nothing

I hope one of those was what you need.

 

Morning RAMBLIN RED

 

green wire to gnd, switch on 12v for maybe 1/2 sec, during cranking--OK this means that fuel pump relay is initially working.

 

during cranking, nothing--This means that Motronic is not commanding the fuel pump relay to "on" during cranking

 

meter across both sides of the injector plug during cranking, nothing--This means that Motronic isn't commanding an injector pulse during cranking or due to 12v loss to injector during cranking. Could be due to no HES signal, or bad Motronic, or low system voltage, or ??????????

 

Put volt meter across battery posts then crank engine, see if battery voltage is above 9.5 during engine cranking. If below 9.5v then add jumping from other vehicle, or put battery charger on battery during cranking (must be more than a trickle charger though), THEN crank engine & see if battery voltage stays above 10v during cranking & IF you then have spark.

 

If battery voltage above 10v during cranking & still no spark then test HES, if HES operating OK then you will need to verify all Motronic 12v power inputs.

 

If battery voltage OK & Motronic power inputs OK then possibly a bad Motronic from failed HES inputting power into wrong circuit (doesn't happen often but has happened)

 

 

 

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It's most likely a fading battery, isn't it ?

I was amazed to see the date stamped on the big heavy gel-battery when I lifted the tank on my recently-bought 04 Rockster, prior to ordering yet another Li-Po lightweight battery as a replacvement. To be the third on my various past bikes.

 

The date was 2007. My godfathers, that must be a good-quality lump, because it still starts the bike quite promptly. I've had gel-batteries in the past which have quietly exited this world at exactly the time when the 2-year warranty ends. And some that haven't even made it that far.

 

Only exception ( apart from this 2007 surprise ) is the remarkable new-tech Li-Po jobbies which spin that starter like gangbusters every time. Especially the amazing Shorai.

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RAMBLIN RED

 

Finally got my led and ran the test. tests good off the bike but fails when installed. The problem is that I could not remove the pins from the plug so I soldered the wires as close to the plug as I could. When I install the insulation moves and shorts. Will order a new one from the Boneyard.

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RAMBLIN RED

just installed the new hes......no spark. Voltage meter across the injector plug during cranking, 0 volts.

 

Thinking of changing my screen name from Ramblin Red to stationary old fart.

I guess the next step is the motronic module, where the hell izzit

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just installed the new hes......no spark. Voltage meter across the injector plug during cranking, 0 volts.

 

Thinking of changing my screen name from Ramblin Red to stationary old fart.

I guess the next step is the motronic module, where the hell izzit

 

Afternoon stationary old fart

 

It's under the fuel tank, looks like a small radio without knobs.

 

Your problem could very well be a bad Motronic (I have seen a couple over the years that lost the coil driver due to a shorted HES).

 

Or possibly no 12v to the Motronic or no ignition 12v to the Motronic so before replacing the Motronic verify 12v into the Motronic on all input terminals. (I presume that you have already checked fuse #5?)

 

Motronic 12v inputs

 

12v B+ = Red/yellow wire

 

12v key-on = green/black wire

 

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RAMBLIN RED

Would that be the device between the ABS and the battery? I mean nothing says " I'm your friendly Motronics ( just call me MO) and you do understand I am the shade in shade tree?

 

I have to laugh a little, I mean, what else is there when you find a beautiful, perfectly running R11RT that hasn't hit a lick since it left the previous owner's yard.....

 

fuse 5 is good

Edited by RAMBLIN RED
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Would that be the device between the ABS and the battery? I mean nothing says " I'm your friendly Motronics ( just call me MO) and you do understand I am the shade in shade tree?

 

I have to laugh a little, I mean, what else is there when you find a beautiful, perfectly running R11RT that hasn't hit a lick since it left the previous owner's yard.....

 

fuse 5 is good

 

Afternoon RAMBLIN RED

 

Yes, that's the area, looks like this.

 

8meudGE.jpg

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Evening RAMBLIN RED

 

Just a thought, you have reinstalled the front pulley & timing cup before testing for spark & fuel injection haven't you?

 

No pulley & timing cup means no HES triggering during engine cranking.

 

RqzyMXc.jpg

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RAMBLIN RED

Evening D.R.,

Yes the pulley is in place

 

Glad you sent the picture, that device is in front of the ABS unit.

Edited by RAMBLIN RED
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RAMBLIN RED

Good morning D.R.

I know what you are gonna tell me.....

key off, 12v on red/yellow

key on 12v on green/black

 

I'll wait to hear your opinion but I think the verdict is in

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Morning RAMBLIN RED

I know what you are gonna tell me.....--Pretty close.

 

key off, 12v on red/yellow--Yes

 

key ON, 12v on red/yellow--Yes

 

key on 12v on green/black--Yes

 

key OFF 12v on green/black--No

 

 

 

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RAMBLIN RED

 

red and yellow key on or off, 12v

 

key on 12v on green/black--Yes

 

key OFF 12v on green/black--No

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RAMBLIN RED

Good morning D.R.

I just ordered he motronic module and I wonder if you would elaborate on the timing procedure for the HES.

 

I deeply appreciate your guidance through this mess. My learning curve is still steep though not as steep as it was on the '96, and I hope to avoid showering you with stupid questions.

But, just in case this doesn't work, I may be homeless. Can I sleep in your garage??

 

Edited by RAMBLIN RED
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The Illinois BMW Riders club is a good source of service information and instructional material. Oddly, they seem to have produced more information than you can find on their website, and you may have to Google the procedure you are researching in order to access what you are looking for. For example, there is an excellent technical paper on bleeding the ABS system on my 2002 R1150R that identifies each of the six bleed screws on my ABS unit, and the order to bleed each circuit to thoroughly service the ABS system. I used their instructions successfully on my own bike.

 

I stumbled across this video while researching the Hall Effect Sensor. Within the video are access directions to a PDF schematic and parts list for building a home made HES timing tool. Although I have not serviced my HES yet, and cannot therefore comment on the effectiveness of these materials, they do inspire confidence. I'm sure I have the skills to pull it off when the time comes. Good Luck.

 

 

 

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Hi JeffyJeff. Just to let you know that some of that information you mention - like the ABS bleed proceedure has changed. DR has posted much more recent material.

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"DR" is Mr. DirtRider, THE Doctor of BMW's. The most knowledgeable, experienced, patient, generous (with his time and knowledge), organized, polite - what all did I miss? - member on this forum. And maybe others. THAT's who DR is.

Edited by Lowndes
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How can I access the recent material?

 

Evening jeffyjeff

 

BMW has a revised service/bleed procedure on the 1150 I-ABS (servo) systems. The revised bleed procedure is more of a labor saver so it supposed to be reflected as a lower dealer price to service the I-ABS brake system.

 

There is a BMW service bulletin on this & I have posted it (procedure) here a number of times (not the bulletin itself as I don't post copyrighted proprietary information).

 

Just keep in mind that the NEW service procedure is more of a labor shortcut & does eliminate bleeding at some of the ABS module bleeders. It is not a "better" procedure just a slightly quicker procedure.

 

My recommendation is that a do-it-yourselfer stick with the original bleed procedure (bleed all fittings in proper order) as that does bleed all the internal channels (just not enough time saving using the new procedure to justify not doing them all).

 

 

 

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DR, AndyS:

Thank you for the collective wisdom. I did indeed bleed my brakes using instructions I got from Illinois BMW Riders. I follow the logic of the procedure. It's not too hard, I'll probably do it annually, if for no other reason than to do all I can to ensure functionality and reliability of my ABS module (and to atone for an unknown service history before the bike came into my care). Thanks, JJ

 

 

Ramblin Red: Let me be the first to congratulate on your success. Good luck and best wishes for many enjoyable, trouble-free miles.

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