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#1013985 - 07/04/18 12:25 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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roger 04 rt Offline
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roger 04 rt  Offline
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Naples FL & Cape Cod
Since my two old narrowband O2 sensors only get me to AF-XIED setting 7 (5-6% added fuel)—and in fairness the bike runs well on that—I either needed to get a new O2 sensor or buy an LC-2 Wideband system if I wanted to try anything richer. I’ve also been curious about how this older GS (2001) is fueled compared to my former 2004RT (dual plug) so I opted to buy the LC-2, which includes the ability to datalog AFR in realtime and then plot riding logs. Plotting riding logs of AFR is the acid test for what a bike’s AFR is or isn’t doing and has been invaluable for me in the past, especially when I wanted to test the claims of a fueling mod, coding plug or Open Loop.

I already had all the miscellaneous parts needed for the project (OEM connectors, cable, sheathing and a serial to USB cable for programming) so I bought the LC-2. I’ve added LC-2s before and went right to it—pulled the tank, rear silencer and catalytic converter and got out the soldering iron, shrink tubing and PC. A few hours later the LC-2 was installed (hardest part was figuring where to lay all the cables), and set to lambda=0.92 (8% more fuel).

Once everything is installed, the Wideband O2 (Bosch LSU 4.9) needs a free-air calibration. Rather than pulling the exhaust a second time, I stuck a vacuum cleaner into the rear silencer, opened the throttle and bumped the rear wheel until I found a spot where one cylinder had intake and exhaust valves open at the same time and drew fresh air through.

Below is a photo of the finished install, the small controller sits on the air box. As time allows I want to run logs and see what differences there are for the three CCP options on my particular GS: European (no plug), US (yellow) and Swiss (beige).

[Linked Image]

#1014022 - 07/04/18 11:14 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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JamesW Offline
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Florence, Oregon
Hi Roger, Hope this isn't too far off subject but I'm totally convinced the EV14 injectors on the '93RSL have allowed me to run much leaner AFRs with great performance and no sign of surge idle is also very smooth. I'm at 13.6:1 right now with no need to run an AFR of 12.9:1 as I did when on the EV1 injectors. Not sure if I'll try for a leaner AFR. Also noticed less throttle sensitivity at low speed around town. What I have is a very smooth well behaved early oilhead. I would highly recommend the EV14 matched injectors for $200 from tills.de without hesitation.

All's well on this side of the continent and am really beginning to bond with the FJR. At first I wasn't sure if I'd made the right move and I missed the '04RT but after a few modifications to the FJR ( center stand, rear shock, bar risers, Michelin PR tires, and Russell Sport saddle ) I'm not missing the RT much at all. My FJR is a 2010 generation 2 machine and I replaced the center stand and shock with OEM units for a generation 3 (2013-present) with great results. I like Yamaha's philosophy of continuous product refinement with new parts that fit the previous year bikes. No need to always buy new to get improved performance. This is kind of off subject and I apologize.

Have a great 4th smile


James
'93 R1100RSL / '10 FJR1300A
#1014138 - 07/07/18 02:32 AM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Went for a spirited ride to check out my leaner AFR settings the last couple of days and I got 48 mpg! My trip was from the Central Oregon Coast over the Cascade Mts then across the Northern Great Basin, some call it the high plateau, to Burns, Oregon a distance of 370 miles from Florence. From Bend to Burns on US20 temps were in the 90s with a very strong wind from the south and me headed east. Speed was from 75 to 90 mph and I got 48 mpg!! The bike has never run better in all respects. I could run non-stop between fill-ups. I think 13.6:1 AFR could easily be increased to 13.8 which would be a good setting at higher elevations. The EV14 injectors are what made the difference. Before I never got above 41 to 43 mpg and the bike never ran as strong. On a ride like this the mpg figure would have been more like 39 mpg.

I'm kind of proud of myself for be able to make a two day trip (750 miles round trip) like this in two days at my age of 75. laugh

Last edited by JamesW; 07/07/18 02:36 AM.

James
'93 R1100RSL / '10 FJR1300A
#1014372 - 07/12/18 01:55 AM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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Yup Jim, EV14 injectors are off topic but at 75 you’re allowed to be enthusiastic. There’s no real mechanism by which you should get over 20% better gas mileage—no matter what injectors half of the fuel is sprayed at a fully closed intake valve and much of that fuel is vaporized. But I can see an argument for better cold starting.

At 13.5:1 on the LC-2, the R1150GS is running great. Starts in under a second, idles smoothly hot or cold, and has that great low torque from lambda-shifting. Next up is running a full tank of fuel with Techron Concentrate, see if that does anything (like cause the idle to increase a bit).

#1014378 - 07/12/18 04:50 AM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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JamesW Offline
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Evening Roger. I was thinking that the 4 port EV14 injectors would operate better than the single port EV1 units (better fuel atomization) which would, as you say, improve starting but also contribute to smoother running in general which might make it easier to eliminate surging at leaner AFR settings on the LC-2. Before now I had to run closed loop AFR of 12.9:1 and never realized mpg figures close to 50 mpg. I've programmed one LC-2 channel for 13.8 and will take a 150 mile ride tomorrow. Now that you mention it I did add Techron concentrate to my first tank of fuel on my trip. I have long used Techron in my rolling stock a couple times a year.

I also wonder if the Motronic 2.2 has an elevation sensor? I think the 2.4 Motronic does. My idle speed was set at 1100 RPM at sea level but dropped to 900 revs at 5K feet elevation. Humidity was also much lower at about 20% on the high plateau.

I would have a hard time living at high elevation with such low humidity. I had a severe nose bleed in the motel before I left on my return trip to the coast caused by the dryness and elevation.


James
'93 R1100RSL / '10 FJR1300A
#1014466 - 07/13/18 03:33 AM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: JamesW]  
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Took the ride today with passenger (wife) with AFR set to 13.8:1 and had no issues. Couldn't tell any difference at 13.8 compared with 13.6:1. Fuel economy was quite good at 49 mpg so no complaints. Not planning to go more lean as I'm satisfied with the performance in all respects. The only thing that could possibly account for the observed performance at these AFR settings is the matched EV14 injectors. Well worth the $200, imo.


James
'93 R1100RSL / '10 FJR1300A
#1014495 - 07/13/18 03:35 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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I’m pretty sure all the Motronics have barometric pressure sensors and even if they didn’t, Closed Loop operation will get the mixture to whatever your setting is. The lower idle speed is simply caused by less air entering at the lower barometric pressure at higher altitudes. R1200 bikes solve this problem with idle stepper motors. For our oilheads, at higher altitudes you could back out the BBSs a quarter or half turn if you notice a lower idle and then restore the setting when you get back to your normal altitude.

#1015289 - 07/25/18 02:00 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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I've run a few tanks of gas on the '01 GS with the Innovate LC-2 at lambda=0.92 (which is 13.5:1, 8% richer and the equal of 8 or 9 on the AF-XIED) and find I'm getting about 42 mph (summer) for non-highway driving. The pull between 1000 and 3000 is much stronger, no surging, the engine is smoother and around town I'm running a gear higher. Looks like I'll keep it at 8% richer.

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 07/25/18 02:07 PM.
#1017804 - 08/25/18 08:45 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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The 2001 GS is running pretty good and I could leave well enough alone ... but who does that? As I've noted before in this thread matched fuel injection at all pulse widths and all RPMs is exactly as important as a good TB balance any time you're running much leaner than Best Power mixture which is around 13:1+/-. Further, on the Oilheads, unlike the R1200s, there is only one O2 sensor which means that the Motronic has no way to get the left-right fuel balance fixed with the sophisticated trims of the R1200. (As an aside, in a discussion with Hexcode, there are so many trims on the R1200 LC bikes that they don't think its worth their effort to report them.)

That means my next step should be to get the injectors cleaned and tested for matching. With that thought in mind, I've decided to buy a pair of matched injectors. If I was in Europe, Tills.DE would ship me a set, in exchange for mine for about 80EU. However, for US customers the only option is new R1200 units and adapters. After several email exchanges with Jürgen to clarify some points, I've decided to spring for a pair of them and test them on both the 2001GS and the 2017RTW (that's right, it too might benefit from a set of matched injectors).

After the install, I'll publish some plots of the initial fueling differences on the '01GS.

Here is a short summary of the discussion with Jürgen:

Quote
—Matching at a range of RPMs and injector pulse widths is critical to a smooth running engine at all power settings.
—Finer atomization is a smaller, side benefit that helps with starting and idle while the engine is cold.
—Well matched EV6 injectors would produce a smoother engine than unmatched EV14 (R1200) injectors at the tolerance limits. (That’s how important matching is.) They don’t offer matched EV6 injectors outside Europe.
—R1200 injectors turn on faster than R1150 or R1100 injectors but not as much faster as I’d estimated. (I will measure this myself by looking at unadapted AFRs.)
—Matching of injectors on a new water-cooled R1200RTW is also likely to improve the engine.

As a result of the clarifications, I’ve ordered a set of matched R1200 injectors and adapters. They should arrive in a few days.

They’ll get installed on my 2001 GS first and I'll make some measurements to see how much extra fuel they add before adaptation, then see what running differences I can detect—with the LC-2 set at 8% extra fuel (current setting)—especially at higher power and under acceleration. Later in the year I'll take the same injectors and try them on my 2017 RTW which is running with AF-XIEDs on setting 7.



Last edited by roger 04 rt; 08/25/18 08:47 PM.
#1017829 - 08/26/18 05:56 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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JamesW Offline
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Morning Roger, Good point about fuel injector matching. The $200 I invested in new matched injectors from Tills.DE was the best two hundred bucks I've invested in my R1100 besides the Innovate LC2. Thanks so much for all your help.

I should also say that my R1100 is more sensitive to precise valve adjustment than was my '04 twin spark RT. Actually quite a bit more. Too bad there isn't some way to install a second O2 sensor on the oilhead. If you could average the signal from two O2 sensors but I fear that is wishful thinking.

I think I'm just going to enjoy riding my R1100 and leave further tinkering alone....I think?

Wait a minute! The exhaust gases from both cylinders are mixed ahead of the O2 sensor. Just look at the head pipes. So in affect the single O2 sensor is already sending a mixed signal to the ECU so forget my rambling in the second paragraph above. Also, to say that the left side just goes along for the ride isn't exactly true either since its exhaust gas is influencing the input to the ECU from the O2 sensor in combination with the right side exhaust. I think I'm having another senior moment.

Last edited by JamesW; 08/26/18 06:23 PM.

James
'93 R1100RSL / '10 FJR1300A
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