04 1150 rt starting issues/ saga

So after several long months of fix, then wait on parts, repeat, I am finally at the point where I am trying to get the bike back into a fully operational state. Have verified that the cam sprockets and valves are in the right positions, have replaced the fuel filter and all the spark plugs but still coming to the same end result.

The problem is when I go to start, she roars up, then dies after the initial fuel has emptied from the lines and does not respond to rolling of the throttle and thus dies.

Even though I can hear the full pump cycle when I first turn the key, I am leaning towards either a bad fuel pump or fuel regulator (dropped in the K bike reg several years ago to up the pressure a hair). I know fuel is getting to the cylinders as you can smell it but as mentioned, since it does continue to run from the initial start I am thinking that it is something in the fuel process. I believe the stick coils are still good but haven't tested them yet.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

So after several long months of fix, then wait on parts, repeat, I am finally at the point where I am trying to get the bike back into a fully operational state. Have verified that the cam sprockets and valves are in the right positions, have replaced the fuel filter and all the spark plugs but still coming to the same end result.

 

The problem is when I go to start, she roars up, then dies after the initial fuel has emptied from the lines and does not respond to rolling of the throttle and thus dies.

 

Even though I can hear the full pump cycle when I first turn the key, I am leaning towards either a bad fuel pump or fuel regulator (dropped in the K bike reg several years ago to up the pressure a hair). I know fuel is getting to the cylinders as you can smell it but as mentioned, since it does continue to run from the initial start I am thinking that it is something in the fuel process. I believe the stick coils are still good but haven't tested them yet.

 

Any suggestions would be helpful.

Afternoon jelake

This is going to be a difficult one to pin down without a LOT of testing on your end & more info on what has been done to the bike & when it last ran correctly.

A quick guess on my part (just a guess) is that your HES is not supplying run info to the Motronic about fueling-on trigger.

At initial key-on the Motronic runs the fuel pump for a couple of seconds to pressurize the fuel system then shuts the pump down. Once the engine starts cranking or fires up & runs the Motronic gets a signal from the HES (fueling sensor part) that tells the Motronic to run the pump & when to inject.

Another (slight) possibility (I have only seen it happen once in the last 20 years) is the fuel pump outlet plastic fitting is cracked or broken. This REALLY lowers the fuel pressure to below normal engine running pressure BUT at cranking or a couple of seconds after start-up then the fueling is commanded so rich that it will run a VERY SHORT time on the reduced fuel pressure. (the one time that I encountered this it drove me crazy finding it as the free flow fuel output looked & showed normal, problem only showed up after running a flow test at operating pressure)

I guess if it were my bike I would first run a return line fuel flow test (that will prove flow @ enough pressure)

If the flow at pressure tests good then next--

I would rig up a 12v light across the fuel pump (+) & (-) wires to see if the fuel pump 12v power shuts down or keeps powering to, at, or just before, the engine stalls.

DR,

Thank you for the quick response. As for the history of what has happened (can viewed in depth in several prior threads over the last 4.5 months) here is a quick synopsis:

Replaced cam chain guide rails (3 out of 4)

Replaced Cam sprockets

Replaced Cam Chain Tensioners (utilized the upgraded left side version, was still stock up until this winter)

Replaced Cylinder heads after issues with drilling bolts out that had snapped off on removal of Exhaust manifold

Replaced Piston rings, both sides

Replaced all four spark plugs

Replaced fuel filter

Replaced Battery

Changed out Final drive and swing arm bushings for upgraded versions

Replaced Neutral Gear Position Selector switch

Cleaned Clutch Master cylinder (replaced paper gasket)

Replaced Clutch Pressure plate and disk with upgraded version (longer spline catch)

Replaced Rear Main Seals (inner and outer) also known as the crankshaft seals

From what I have read I thought the HES Sensor on the 04 1150rt was near indestructible, then again it does have 104K on it so with time just about anything can decline. How hard is it to get in to the HES, I think it is behind the alternator belt correct?

DR,

 

From what I have read I thought the HES Sensor on the 04 1150rt was near indestructible, then again it does have 104K on it so with time just about anything can decline. How hard is it to get in to the HES, I think it is behind the alternator belt correct?

 

Afternoon jelake

That is a lot of things done so lots of possibilities on failure areas.

Do the fuel return hose flow test as that should prove that you have enough fuel flow at enough pressure.

Then do the "12v TO the pump" test to verify that the Motronic is actually commanding the pump to stay on.

The 1150 HES is not failure prone like the 1100 bikes were but they can still fail or become damaged due to pinched or pulled wires or ????? HES is under (behind) the front lower belt pulley.

Is there ANY chance that you have the fuel hoses hooked up incorrectly (ie pressure hose to return line)

Yea, at this point the wife has openly declared she hates the bike, which I have affectionately nicknamed pandoras box, as most of the repairs above started because of a couple of snapped exhaust bolts, the rest was mostly collateral as I went farther in. I will check the voltage and flow tests through the rest of this week and see what happens.

I do have a new Fuel line/ regulator housing assembly that I haven't put in yet, haven't felt like lifting the back end (again), especially in light of current issues as at this point I want to be done with the bike repairs so I cant start in on the truck- cant do that until the bike is up since I need one good vehicle to be up at all times lol.

Fairly positive the fuel lines are correct as that I have them set at different lengths (from when I converted to the metal QDs from stock) back in 2012. Will double check though, at this point def cant hurt.

Also, one more quick question, Since the HES is somewhat expensive to fix (if it is broken) is there a way to test to see if it is working correctly?

Also, one more quick question, Since the HES is somewhat expensive to fix (if it is broken) is there a way to test to see if it is working correctly?

Afternoon jelake

Yes, you can test it with a homemade LED test box-- BUT, this is more for setting the HES timing & verifying that it is working. A test box might not show an oddball malfunction like you could possibly have.

Lets eliminate the other things first before going after the HES.

So, got the parts in tonight, so new fuel pump, fuel pressure reg, and associated lines are now in the bike. Still does the initial fire once and then dies. Charging the battery to see if its just that it ran down too far this time.

Hoping that on a good charge it will fire in the morning.

So, got the parts in tonight, so new fuel pump, fuel pressure reg, and associated lines are now in the bike. Still does the initial fire once and then dies. Charging the battery to see if its just that it ran down too far this time.

Hoping that on a good charge it will fire in the morning.

Evening jelake

Is the fuel pump staying powered up as & after it fires?

I don't think anyone has mentioned the injector(s) or their signal yet. Is there a way to test?

DR mentioned that the fuel pump runs for a few seconds, and then shuts off until it receives some other signal. That sounds like a plausible theory. But, just brainstorming, if there were some kind of blockage of the air filter, then I could imagine there being enough air to fire momentarily, and then the vacuum causing something in the air box to cover the inlet, starving the engine. I'm thinking of a mouse nest with a flap of paper or plastic. I have found such a thing in my own bike, after a long winter. I learned to check the air box in the spring before firing up the first time.

DR,

 

From what I have read I thought the HES Sensor on the 04 1150rt was near indestructible, then again it does have 104K on it so with time just about anything can decline. How hard is it to get in to the HES, I think it is behind the alternator belt correct?

 

 

Afternoon jelake

 

That is a lot of things done so lots of possibilities on failure areas.

 

Do the fuel return hose flow test as that should prove that you have enough fuel flow at enough pressure.

 

Then do the "12v TO the pump" test to verify that the Motronic is actually commanding the pump to stay on.

 

The 1150 HES is not failure prone like the 1100 bikes were but they can still fail or become damaged due to pinched or pulled wires or ????? HES is under (behind) the front lower belt pulley.

 

Is there ANY chance that you have the fuel hoses hooked up incorrectly (ie pressure hose to return line)

I know you want to get Pandora's Box running, so stop throwing parts at this and take DR's advice: measure the return flow and do the 12V to the pump test.

Have done the 12V Test and thus far everything appears to be getting the current that it should be ranging from the injectors, the fuel pump, and the starter. Replaced the Hall effect sensor this weekend since EME had a sale going on and 175 beats the hell out of 350. However, upon initial start results were the same with an initial flame up, last for anywhere from 2-4 seconds, then abrupt flame out.

I did find a air leak off the left side injector manifold so got that tightened back up. At the moment I am thinking that possibly another air leak could be causing the sudden flame out due to compression not being held. Will be trying to start her again tonight after reseating the cylinder cover and head seals to see if that fixes, if not I am already trying to schedule a call to the dealership to see if they can find what the issue is.

Have tested the sidestand/ neutral switch and it is working correctly so that aspect has been ruled out as well. It has been leaking slightly through the exhaust valves (found out when I removed the exhaust again, kinda of a soupy black mixture- thinking oil and fuel?) so will be ordering some new crush O-rings for the exhaust manifold. Could this be a single thought that the timing is off as I wouldn't think that the fluid would escape like that into the exhaust pipes?

Morning jelake

Have done the 12V Test and thus far everything appears to be getting the current that it should be ranging from the injectors, the fuel pump, and the starter. --OK, if the tests were run correctly then that should eliminate the Motronic (fuel pump supply side anyhow) as the cause.

Replaced the Hall effect sensor this weekend since EME had a sale going on and 175 beats the hell out of 350. However, upon initial start results were the same with an initial flame up, last for anywhere from 2-4 seconds, then abrupt flame out.--OK, this should eliminate the HES as the cause.

I did find a air leak off the left side injector manifold so got that tightened back up. At the moment I am thinking that possibly another air leak could be causing the sudden flame out due to compression not being held. --The air leak would have to MASSIVE & be on both sides to cause your exact problem. I would put this as number 125 as the cause on a 1-100 rating scale.

Will be trying to start her again tonight after reseating the cylinder cover and head seals to see if that fixes, if not I am already trying to schedule a call to the dealership to see if they can find what the issue is. --The cover area shouldn't be effecting your problem but let us know on what the dealer finds if that pans out..

Have tested the sidestand/ neutral switch and it is working correctly so that aspect has been ruled out as well.--It wouldn't fire at all if this were the problem.

It has been leaking slightly through the exhaust valves (found out when I removed the exhaust again, kinda of a soupy black mixture- thinking oil and fuel?) so will be ordering some new crush O-rings for the exhaust manifold. This should be repaired but isn't your problem.

Could this be a single thought that the timing is off as I wouldn't think that the fluid would escape like that into the exhaust pipes?-- You sure could have a timing problem but that doesn't sound like it could cause an after-start COMPLETE STALL issue.

Something is shutting the fuel, the air, or the spark off after initial engine fire-- Nothing closing your air intake off is there (like a rag, or plug, or glove, or rats nest, is there??????)

Have you run a proper return line flow fuel test yet??-- If not then this POSITIVLY needs to be done.

DR and/ or Roger, If you don't mind, could you give me a call at 7202847405, Might be easier than conversing through posts at midnight.

DR, Thank you for the quick response- just got off the phone with the dealer and the quickest they could get it in is aug 9 so I still have more time to figure this out on my own lol.

The Tech I talked to did seem concerned with the oil seepage so will need to address that, but beyond that wouldn't even begin to speculate due to all the variables due to new parts (kind saw that coming as they generally avoid doing much over the phone anyway).

The air box is clear as far as I know, have taken it off a few times now from raising the tail (both from the initial oil seal replacements/ clutch, to the just recent fuel line and FPR. Also, when it occasionally backfires (all of about 4 times since May) the smoke does trail back from the air intakes and up through the filter as well as from around it, makes for an interesting thought process of Oh Sh**, I am blowing myself up!

Morning jelake

One thing I forgot to ask-- any chance that your bike has an anti-theft system on it.

You mention tilting the rear of bike up (did you have the air box off?) -- Have you looked at the air filter since that? If the lower chamber in the air box was full of oil & the air box was tipped on it's side then you might have a completely oil soaked air filter element.

Thinking out loud, Could it possibly be the ignition coil? Its been close to 5 years since that was last replaced...

DR,

No Anti theft on it that I am aware of, have had the bike since 2012 so that would be a big oops on my part if I missed it. As for the air box, when I have had the box out, I always laid it down on the garage floor the same way it laid on the bike so the filter would have been facing up.

DR,

The fuel/ spark issue is where I was originally leaning hence the parts list that has been replaced, however, knowing my luck it will end up being something simple that I have overlooked (and yes both throttle cables are firmly seated as that was one of the first things I have repeatedly checked.

Thinking out loud, Could it possibly be the ignition coil? Its been close to 5 years since that was last replaced...

Afternoon jelake

Could it be the ignition coil? -- sure but that would be number 124 on a list of 0-100 possibilities.

Just keep in mind that the more parts that you throw at the problem the more difficult it will be to find the ORIGINAL problem.

Quit throwing parts at it & do the testing required to find the problem THEN replace ONLY THAT part.

Alcon,

Thank you for the assistance that you have given in this ongoing process.

Replaced the stick coils yesterday to the same effect, and before anyone asks, yes the fuel system checks out. Thinking it might be due to old gas/ varnish still in the tank, I filled it up with 93 Octane. While also running back over the outer portion of the bike found the intake manifold clamp to be loose so tightened that as well. Alas, this did not resolve anything as I had the same result, an initial flare up and then sudden death but followed but an almost lope that was just slow enough not to catch.

Started thinking and went back and checked the cam sprockets as these had been replaced through this process. Left side was off by what appeared to be a link which then was prohibiting the vales from opening/ remaining closed at the wrong periods. Got this rectified, everything plugged back up nice and tight, turned the key and off to the races.

However, this then caused two other problems to surface that were not readily apparent when the bike was off. The slight oil seepage past the exhaust valves has now been amplified so my best guess at this point is that the o-rings/ seals (probably the wrong terms, trying to type past the burn on the forearm from the exhaust manifold) need to be replaced. The other issue is the oil leak that presented before which lead me to replace the rear main crankshaft inner and outer seals is back leading me to believe that either they aren't seated correctly, or that DR's theory that when I pushed the pin out for the chain rail guide it loosed the seal for the halves.

In either event, will be back out tomorrow morning taking off the exhaust manifold and lifting the back in order to make initial observations and move forward.

Again, thank you for the advice and help thus far.

Evening jelake

If you for-sure have the rear seals installed correctly (outer one not driven in too far) then look for a leak at the case joint or at the pin.

Lest us know what you find when you open it up.

Evening DR,

Just finished taking off the tranny, cleaned up a lot of the oil that was on the inside. Thankfully the new clutch I had put in didn't get any on it even though the back of the fly wheel has a light coating. From what I can see it looks like it is coming from the outer seal not the pin, my reasoning being that when I had reinstalled the pin I placed some if the same grey sealant/ gasket material used for attaching the cylinder barrels back to the frame over the pin. Based on initial inspection this is still intact which lends me to believe it is the seal.

The other reason why I believe at this point it is the seal is that there did appear to still be some small amount of oil at the base and around the rim of the seal. I could have sworn that I had placed it on at the right depth but perhaps not. Another thing I am wondering as I double check over things is if the one i ordered was the correct seal (ordered through bike bandit)- havent had any issues with them in the past so it could simply be user error. There was a fairly copiuos amount of fluid that came out in the 5 mins or so of time (if even that long, it was long enough for it to achieve one bar before I modified the tps for a lower rpm)- and this does not include the amount that came out once the tranny was separated from the engine case.

Based on this it would seem to be leaking more from a larger opening than the pin would permit- hence why I am leaning to the seal again as that would more easily enable, especially if it had more than a pin hole that had not sealed correctly.

As always, def open to opinions, I know in this instance though there are really only two options, either the seal or the pin so once one is ruled out then the other should be the problem should it continue to persist (hoping it isnt the pin as that would mean cracking the case and redoing the seal).

Evening jelake

If it was leaking that bad in that short of time the you might clean it up REAL CLEAN (spotless), then remove the spark plugs (for cranking speed & ease) & remove fuse #5 (to kill spark & fuel).

Then bolt just the flywheel & starter on then crank the engine & watch for oil seepage (you just might catch the location)

Evening jelake

 

If it was leaking that bad in that short of time the you might clean it up REAL CLEAN (spotless), then remove the spark plugs (for cranking speed & ease) & remove fuse #5 (to kill spark & fuel).

 

Then bolt just the flywheel & starter on then crank the engine & watch for oil seepage (you just might catch the location)

Morning jelake

I guess I should have added this last night----

In some cases when I am looking for an oil leak I will drop the engine oil then re-fill with nice RED colored ATF (transmission fluid). ATF is slightly thinner cold than the heavier motor oil in there now & shows up nicely at leakage points (engine will crank & even run with ATF as it has great lubrication qualities)

DR,

Thank you for the suggestion, I will definitely use that as I would like to try and catch this oil leak for def this time. How hard is it to get the ATF back out of the engine once complete and if it isn't totally out (residual) will it have any harmful effects on future operation?

DR,

Thank you for the suggestion, I will definitely use that as I would like to try and catch this oil leak for def this time. How hard is it to get the ATF back out of the engine once complete and if it isn't totally out (residual) will it have any harmful effects on future operation?

Afternoon jelake

Just drain the oil & change the filter. People have been adding ATF to engine oil for years as a crankcase cleaner.

Years ago some NASCAR racers even ran ATF for engine oil as it reduced oil related patristic drag.

Dr,

Tried hooking the battery and the starter up after reconnecting the flywheel but couldnt get past the abs circuit, does it need the signal from the rear pedal to connect yhe circuit to turn on or was i overthinking and missed something easy?

Dr,

Tried hooking the battery and the starter up after reconnecting the flywheel but couldnt get past the abs circuit, does it need the signal from the rear pedal to connect yhe circuit to turn on or was i overthinking and missed something easy?

Evening jelake

No brake or ABS input needed but you will probably either need to jump the missing transmission neutral switch (or old the clutch lever in) and/or jump the side stand switch if it is disconnected.

Personally, I usually just jump the starter solenoid rather than jumper the switches (don't even need the key turned on). (jump large solenoid stud, the one with the battery cable attached to it to the terminal with the smaller wire going to it & it should crank)