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New to Oilhead questions


R65_Steve

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A couple of n00b questions here. For about 10 years, I had an old R65 Airhead (my only bike every) but had not been on a bike for about 2 years until this weekend. I just bought a 2004 R1150R Rockster. It came with everything but any sort of owner's manual. So I have a couple of questions.

1. How am I supposed to use this “choke“ lever? How long after starting it do I turn it off? On a Fuel injection engine, what's the point?

2. On the R65, I didn't shift quickly, because frankly the bike didn't do that. Or mine didn't anyhow. On this bike, it seems that I have to upshift really quickly (or keep the revs up) else the bike will “bog” a little. I have no better term, it's not smooth. If I do it all quickly, everything seems smooth. I'm sure this is normal, but it's taking a little getting used to. Do I have this right?

Many thanks.

 

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A couple of n00b questions here. For about 10 years, I had an old R65 Airhead (my only bike every) but had not been on a bike for about 2 years until this weekend. I just bought a 2004 R1150R Rockster. It came with everything but any sort of owner's manual. So I have a couple of questions.

1. How am I supposed to use this “choke“ lever? How long after starting it do I turn it off? On a Fuel injection engine, what's the point?

2. On the R65, I didn't shift quickly, because frankly the bike didn't do that. Or mine didn't anyhow. On this bike, it seems that I have to upshift really quickly (or keep the revs up) else the bike will “bog” a little. I have no better term, it's not smooth. If I do it all quickly, everything seems smooth. I'm sure this is normal, but it's taking a little getting used to. Do I have this right?

Many thanks.

 

 

Morning Steve

 

The choke is really mis-named as ALL it does is increase the idle speed (very same as holding the twist grip open slightly). I'm not sure why BMW chose to call it a choke but they did & we now have to live with it. Snap it off as soon as the engine will stay running on it's own.

 

There is also another position on the choke lever (all the way up but you must hold it there as it will snap back to center on it's own) . That "held position" really helps in very cold weather to keep it running right after you start it.

 

As for shifting speeds & engine RPM's. Some short shift, some hold the shift until higher RPM's & some just don't care & shift when it feels comfortable. The engine & bike will basically tell you what it likes & doesn't like as you get a feel for it.

 

The BMW engine, of your bike's era, run slightly to the lean side so don't like lugging at low RPM's or like high engine loads at almost closed throttle.

 

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Steve, I came over to an oilhead R1100RT from an R80, took me a while to learn how to shift it so it didn't grind between 2nd and 3rd. If I lift up on the shifter just before the shift and then pop if (with authority) quickly, I get a nice smooth shift. Can't shift lazy, that's what I've learned. Dave

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Steve, Welcome to the joys of R1150R ownership/ridership. I'm a relative newbie here myself. Having only logged about 4000 miles on my bike, I'm no expert, but I think that the oilhead six speed transmissions are unfairly maligned.

 

Some years ago, I read an article by Nick Ienatch about how good shifting technique helps road racers save valuable fractions of a second on the track. I've tried to apply those tips and it really makes a difference.

When upshifting, if I refrain from rolling completely off throttle and instead roll off only enough to unload the power train (try to keep your engine speed constant) I can achieve really smooth shifts. When downshifting, I try to match my engine RPM when the clutch is released to the RPM it will turn after the shift is completed. It make a noticeable difference in the quality of my ride.

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Thank you all.

 

 

Steve, Welcome to the joys of R1150R ownership/ridership. I'm a relative newbie here myself. Having only logged about 4000 miles on my bike, I'm no expert, but I think that the oilhead six speed transmissions are unfairly maligned.

 

Some years ago, I read an article by Nick Ienatch about how good shifting technique helps road racers save valuable fractions of a second on the track. I've tried to apply those tips and it really makes a difference.

When upshifting, if I refrain from rolling completely off throttle and instead roll off only enough to unload the power train (try to keep your engine speed constant) I can achieve really smooth shifts. When downshifting, I try to match my engine RPM when the clutch is released to the RPM it will turn after the shift is completed. It make a noticeable difference in the quality of my ride.

 

 

I experimented with this technique a bit on my ride to the DMV just now, seemed, to be the trick. I know all about rev matched down shifts from my track (car) driving, but I don't do it as much as I should on the bike (or the street). But it was the upshift that was kicking my but on this new bike.

 

 

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Steve,

 

I have a Rockster, RT and S, all 2004s. They all shift similiarly. It sounds like you might be getting the hang of it but what helped me was understanding that these engines have very little flywheel mass and slow down RPM wise very quickly when the throttle is rolled back. This combined with close ratio gearboxes makes it necessary to shift quckly with only just enough RPM drop to allow engagement with the next gear. This has been described above but understanding the mechanics of it might help. Once mastered the changes are almost seamless... reminds me of the dual clutch (DSG) transaxle in a GTI I used to have. I agree with Jeff that complaints are unfounded, it just requires technique. Also... just a heads-up that the Rock has the sport transmission. The only difference from the standard is that 6th gear is a little shorter providing faster roll-on at highway speed.

Edited by Craig G.
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Steve,

 

understanding that these engines have very little flywheel mass and slow down RPM wise very quickly when the throttle is rolled back. This combined with close ratio gearboxes makes it necessary to shift quckly with only just enough RPM drop to allow engagement with the next gear. This has been described above but understanding the mechanics of it might help.

 

That helps me. I'm fairly mechanical and took my R65 all apart to fix the RMS, so I know how this all works in theory.....moving up to a modern bike, I didn't know how much better it could be!

 

Now the challenge for me is also going to be keeping it within legal speed limits. It's so smooth, I'm at the limit in no time. I noticed that it still pulled in 6th. ;) I have no experience with an RT or anything so no comparison for me.

 

Thanks all!

 

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One other trick that helped me with the upshifting was to not pull the clutch in all the way and pull/release very quickly. That plus preloading the shifter right before the upshift, if done quickly, doesn't allow the engine speed to drop to compromise a smooth shift action. Took a long time for me to develop the muscle memory to make it smooth.

Enjoy your new bike.

Edited by kalali
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That comment about the oilhead light flywheel has really helped me understand the need for a quick shift. A quick shift doesn't allow the flywheel time to slow down. In my case when I first had the bike I must have allowed too much time between clutch lever in and gear selection. Between 1st and 2nd and 2nd and 3rd I'd sometimes get a nasty sounding grind. Hardly ever hear that anymore. It took practice, but now I get silky smooth shifts almost every time. Dave

Edited by Dave P
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Very similar to the above suggestions, I found that my R1100S six-speed will shift slicker than a Lexus in luxury mode with practice. And no clunk.

 

A fast but very coordinated and TIMED blip-slip of the clutch, up with the shifter, and blip of the throttle. The clutch is not pulled all the way in, just enough to barely slip it a tad. Also, the throttle is just blipped just enough to unload the drive train, NOT a full closure.

 

Practice, practice, practice.

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Very similar to the above suggestions, I found that my R1100S six-speed will shift slicker than a Lexus in luxury mode with practice. And no clunk.

 

A fast but very coordinated and TIMED blip-slip of the clutch, up with the shifter, and blip of the throttle. The clutch is not pulled all the way in, just enough to barely slip it a tad. Also, the throttle is just blipped just enough to unload the drive train, NOT a full closure.

 

Practice, practice, practice.

 

 

Yes, practice is KEY. The clutch needs very little pull to make it do it's thing. Old bike had a cable that was probably stretched out to begin with.

 

When you say, blip, I think of down shifting to rev match, like I would do in my car on the racetrack. So that would be revving it up. I'd refer to letting off a little (but not all the way) as "breathing" the throttle. Nevertheless, I get your point. I'm getting better on the upshifts, I don't recall blasting through the gears so quickly on my old bike. Downshifting smoothly will require a lot more attention.

 

Thank you all.

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Dave, Steve,

 

You are correct on the "blip". Maybe I should have said "dip" of the throttle. Poor choice of words on my part. Anyway, momentarily relieve the power but not necessarily the RPM's

 

My '99 R1100S does have a hydraulic clutch (very similar to the 1150), but my '99 R1100RT has the cable. I like the hydraulic system - until it leaks and kills the clutch.

 

The RT will shift much better using the same technique, but being a 5 speed, wide ratio, it's more problematic. Essentially, the difference in RPM's between the gears (dogs and slots) is just a bit farther to "reach". Just need more practice.

 

 

 

 

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That comment about the oilhead light flywheel has really helped me understand the need for a quick shift. A quick shift doesn't allow the flywheel time to slow down. In my case when I first had the bike I must have allowed too much time between clutch lever in and gear selection. Between 1st and 2nd and 2nd and 3rd I'd sometimes get a nasty sounding grind. Hardly ever hear that anymore. It took practice, but now I get silky smooth shifts almost every time. Dave

 

Morning Dave

 

The flywheel (clutch housing) itself is fairly light but that is only one piece of the spinning flywheel assembly. There is also a fairly meaty cast pressure plate, a decent sized cast clutch cover, & a diaphragm spring that spins in tandem with the flywheel giving the entire assembly enough weigh to do it's job. Not diesel engine heavy but definitely heavier than most inline engine bikes.

 

I'm not sure that your 2004 R bike has it (as the R should have a 50 amp alternator) but most late 1150RT bikes have a free-wheeling alternator pulley that disconnects the rotational alternator rotor during over-run removing the alternator's stored flywheel effect from the engine spin-down.

 

The 2 things that make the BMW 1150 difficult to learn to shift smoothly is the 2 large pistons with somewhat high compression that pull the RPM's down very quickly at dropped throttle.

 

And the BMW fuel injection system that uses a fuel shut-off on dropped throttle down to just above closed throttle idle (shuts the fuel injection off completely & abruptly) when the throttle is closed.

 

It sounds like you are getting used to the shifting but one thing to try is riding with the choke on (it really isn't a choke, so ALL the choke does is raise the idle speed, nothing else) but using the choke usually holds the idle speed higher that also prevents the throttle from returning to fuel shut-off on dropped throttle. For a lot of riders using the choke really smooths the shifting out. Once the rider then sees what the choke-on does during the shift they can then snap the choke off & try to duplicate the choke effect with limited twist grip movement.

 

 

 

 

 

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Dirtrider...

 

That's good stuff, I never thought of the big pistons slowing things down, but it makes perfect sense. It's all quite a step up from my "antique" R65.

 

Regarding the clutch and all, is it similar to an airhead? I've taken apart two sports cars and my R65 and all of what you're describing sounds similar to those experiences. I was reading up on "wet clutches" and that's a foreign concept to me. :)

 

I've learned quite a bit here in my short time, thanks.

 

 

 

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Steve - apples & oranges but I have a '99 5 spd. I had good luck changing the trans oil to a synthetic to improve shifting. As DR predicted, it worked for a while. I have 3k miles on it now, and as the big chains of molecules get chopped up into smaller pieces... shifting has gone "agricultural" again. I use Spectro and will put it in again. As others say you have to shift like you mean it. If you" toe I"t like you can with a Japanese bike you'll get a half shift and grinding. There's no primary reduction on a BMW so the trans spins 3 times faster than most bikes. Harder for the gear's dogs to find the slots. Nature of the beast.

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I've never ridden a Japanese bike more than a few feet in MSF class, so I don't know what you mean. But this has all been very helpful. Perhaps I babied the R65 a little or my shifts were slower because, well, everything was slower on that bike and the cable and all. I have an old 911 as well..... by design you shift it slowly. They made the shift lever long so you couldn't be too quick about it and break the transmission.

 

All this modern new fangled stuff!

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Steve - apples & oranges but I have a '99 5 spd. I had good luck changing the trans oil to a synthetic to improve shifting. As DR predicted, it worked for a while. I have 3k miles on it now, and as the big chains of molecules get chopped up into smaller pieces... shifting has gone "agricultural" again. I use Spectro and will put it in again. As others say you have to shift like you mean it. If you" toe I"t like you can with a Japanese bike you'll get a half shift and grinding. There's no primary reduction on a BMW so the trans spins 3 times faster than most bikes. Harder for the gear's dogs to find the slots. Nature of the beast.

 

Morning dave_a

 

If you look closely there is primary reduction BUT it is after the clutch so the clutch still spins at engine speed. The primary (like) reduction is between the input shaft & the intermediate shaft & is a constant mesh (all the shifting reductions then take place between the intermediate shaft gear sets & the output shaft gear sets.

 

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Lone_RT_rider
Steve - apples & oranges but I have a '99 5 spd. I had good luck changing the trans oil to a synthetic to improve shifting.

 

I have done the same thing in my R1100RT. The results I have are strictly "seat of the pants" based, but I've tried the following.

 

1. Mobil 1 gear oil: Actually made the shifting even harder for me, if that can be believed that it could be worse.

 

7070039_mbi_511303_pri_larg.jpg

 

2. Redline Heavy Shockproof gear oil: This is what's currently in my R1100RT. It seems pretty good. It's much better than the standard non-synthetic oil from BMW. Shifts are definitely smoother.

 

harley-davidson-gear-lub-transmission.jpg

 

3. BMW Full synthetic gear oil: Believe it or not, this seems to be the slickest shifting of all that I have tried. It's only slightly better than the Redline, but it does feel better to me. I'm probably going back to this pretty soon. It's about time for a full fluids change in this bike.

 

4. BMW Non-synthetic gear oil: This was early in the bikes life, but it's only slightly better than the Mobil 1 in my opinion.

 

IMHO, I believe that the BMW synthetic actually shifts smoother than all the others I have tried. It's hard to stomach the cost every time I by a quart from the dealer, but when I shift the bike it's all worth it to me.

 

Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV)

 

Shawn

 

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Steve - apples & oranges but I have a '99 5 spd. I had good luck changing the trans oil to a synthetic to improve shifting.

 

I have done the same thing in my R1100RT. The results I have are strictly "seat of the pants" based, but I've tried the following.

 

1. Mobil 1 gear oil: Actually made the shifting even harder for me, if that can be believed that it could be worse.

 

 

2. Redline Heavy Shockproof gear oil: This is what's currently in my R1100RT. It seems pretty good. It's much better than the standard non-synthetic oil from BMW. Shifts are definitely smoother.

 

 

 

3. BMW Full synthetic gear oil: Believe it or not, this seems to be the slickest shifting of all that I have tried. It's only slightly better than the Redline, but it does feel better to me. I'm probably going back to this pretty soon. It's about time for a full fluids change in this bike.

 

4. BMW Non-synthetic gear oil: This was early in the bikes life, but it's only slightly better than the Mobil 1 in my opinion.

 

IMHO, I believe that the BMW synthetic actually shifts smoother than all the others I have tried. It's hard to stomach the cost every time I by a quart from the dealer, but when I shift the bike it's all worth it to me.

 

Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV)

 

Shawn

 

Morning Shawn

 

Almost any new (fresh) gear oil will make the BMW 5 or 6 speed shift better. As the gear oil shears down through usage the shifting usually degrades as base viscosity changes. The real proof is in "IF" the gear oil that you have chosen is a better gear oil, or the correct gear oil, that YOUR bike likes, after 3,000+ miles or so.

 

When it comes to gear oil selection the difference between the older 5 speed & the later 6 speed also makes a difference (at least in my experience). A LOT of the older 5 speeds do seem to respond well to the Heavy Shockproof but that stuff seems to shear easily so shifting goes down the tubes as the miles on the gear oil accumulate.

 

My biggest complaint with the Heavy Shockproof (especially in the later clean bearing transmissions) is in it's awful color that stays even through a few gear oil changes back to standard gear oil. That pinkish color all but eliminates the ability to tell if the trans is starting to lose a clean bearing as you can't see the bearing bleed into that pinkish blob.

 

I have yet to see a 6 speed that responds well to the Heavy Shockproof but that is just in my experience so there might be some that do.

 

The BMW 6 speed trans seem to get along well with the Mobil 1 (75-140) but finding a non LS version (no limited slip additives) is difficult. It probably isn't the top choice for best shifting in the first 1000 miles but seems to at least hold decent shifting at higher miles between changes.

 

In my experience one of the better shifting gear oils for the 6 speed is Royal Purple 75w140 but that good shifting feel is usually very short lived & is all but gone by 1000 miles on the oil. (this gear oil must shear easily)

 

Bottom line: the BMW trans gear oil choice is not the same across the board (especially between the 5 speed & 6 speed bikes) so a rider should try a few different gear oil's then find what shifts best in THEIR bike over the most miles.

 

I haven't ever really figured out WHY the gear oil choice in the BMW boxer transmissions makes a notable difference as the gears are constant engagement (all gears always engaged) so the only engagement parts that move are sliding shift dogs/collars & the shift drum/forks. So best I can guess is that the change in gear oil viscosity can effect the speed that the riders foot can move the internal shifting parts & the very slight difference in friction could slightly effect the shift sliders & dog movement as they engage.

 

 

 

 

 

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Dirtrider...

 

Regarding the clutch and all, is it similar to an airhead? I've taken apart two sports cars and my R65 and all of what you're describing sounds similar to those experiences.

 

Morning Steve

 

Yes, clutch is somewhat similar to your old air head.

 

 

7fIcCta.jpg

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The real proof is in "IF" the gear oil that you have chosen is a better gear oil, or the correct gear oil, that YOUR bike likes, after 3,000+ miles or so.

 

I never did find a gear oil for my 1150RT that didn't seem to drop off way before 6K miles. It's easy enough, so I just changed it out about every 3K.

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Lone_RT_rider
Morning Shawn

 

Almost any new (fresh) gear oil will make the BMW 5 or 6 speed shift better. As the gear oil shears down through usage the shifting usually degrades as base viscosity changes. The real proof is in "IF" the gear oil that you have chosen is a better gear oil, or the correct gear oil, that YOUR bike likes, after 3,000+ miles or so.

 

Yep, I have 12K on each of the oils I've mentioned except the Mobil 1. I couldn't get that out of the trans fast enough. :)

 

When it comes to gear oil selection the difference between the older 5 speed & the later 6 speed also makes a difference (at least in my experience). A LOT of the older 5 speeds do seem to respond well to the Heavy Shockproof but that stuff seems to shear easily so shifting goes down the tubes as the miles on the gear oil accumulate.

 

I guess I have been fortunate. This hasn't happened for me, and I am not exactly easy on my bikes.

 

My biggest complaint with the Heavy Shockproof (especially in the later clean bearing transmissions) is in it's awful color that stays even through a few gear oil changes back to standard gear oil. That pinkish color all but eliminates the ability to tell if the trans is starting to lose a clean bearing as you can't see the bearing bleed into that pinkish blob.

 

On this we agree. That "pepto bismal" color takes a lot of the ability to root cause any color changes and throws it right out the window.

 

I have yet to see a 6 speed that responds well to the Heavy Shockproof but that is just in my experience so there might be some that do.

 

I've only run the Shockproof in the R1100RT and not the R1200RT, but with that recommendation, I will stick to the BMW trans fluid for the R12RT for now.

 

The BMW 6 speed trans seem to get along well with the Mobil 1 (75-140) but finding a non LS version (no limited slip additives) is difficult. It probably isn't the top choice for best shifting in the first 1000 miles but seems to at least hold decent shifting at higher miles between changes.

 

I ran the Mobil 1 back in the 2002 time-frame. To my knowledge it did not have the LS additive. I changed it into both the R1100RT and the R1100R that we had at the time. As I've said above, I couldn't get it out of those transmissions fast enough. My ex-girlfriends bike (the R1100R) didn't like it at all. Even the novice that she was could notice that it wasn't shifting as well as the BMW trans fluid.

 

In my experience one of the better shifting gear oils for the 6 speed is Royal Purple 75w140 but that good shifting feel is usually very short lived & is all but gone by 1000 miles on the oil. (this gear oil must shear easily)

 

Noted, I won't be trying Royal Purple in the R1200RT. :)

 

Bottom line: the BMW trans gear oil choice is not the same across the board (especially between the 5 speed & 6 speed bikes) so a rider should try a few different gear oil's then find what shifts best in THEIR bike over the most miles.

 

Agreed, and that's exactly what I have done over the past 19 years of BMW ownership. I hope this encourages others to do the same. :)

 

I haven't ever really figured out WHY the gear oil choice in the BMW boxer transmissions makes a notable difference as the gears are constant engagement (all gears always engaged) so the only engagement parts that move are sliding shift dogs/collars & the shift drum/forks. So best I can guess is that the change in gear oil viscosity can effect the speed that the riders foot can move the internal shifting parts & the very slight difference in friction could slightly effect the shift sliders & dog movement as they engage.

 

That's possible. It's outside of my realm of engineering. Now, if you want to design an injection molded part, a stamping or cast something out of ductile Iron we can definitely talk. LOL. :)

 

Thanks for the feedback DR. It's always appreciated.

 

Shawn

 

 

 

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"The 2 things that make the BMW 1150 difficult to learn to shift smoothly is the 2 large pistons with somewhat high compression that pull the RPM's down very quickly at dropped throttle."

 

- Which would be offset by a heavy flywheel (Assy.) if it had one... similiar to the airhead design. But since the flywheel (Assy.) is relatively light for the application rotational momentum is reduced in favor of responsiveness.

 

"And the BMW fuel injection system that uses a fuel shut-off on dropped throttle down to just above closed throttle idle (shuts the fuel injection off completely & abruptly) when the throttle is closed."

 

- Not a factor as the fuel cutoof point is too low to be reached while shifting

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"The 2 things that make the BMW 1150 difficult to learn to shift smoothly is the 2 large pistons with somewhat high compression that pull the RPM's down very quickly at dropped throttle."

 

- Which would be offset by a heavy flywheel (Assy.) if it had one... similiar to the airhead design. But since the flywheel (Assy.) is relatively light for the application rotational momentum is reduced in favor of responsiveness.

 

"And the BMW fuel injection system that uses a fuel shut-off on dropped throttle down to just above closed throttle idle (shuts the fuel injection off completely & abruptly) when the throttle is closed."

 

- Not a factor as the fuel cutoof point is too low to be reached while shifting

 

Morning Craig

 

You need to explain why you think (fuel cut-off) it isn't a factor? It IS a factor & a very important factor. If engine RPM's are above 1800 RPM's & throttle (twist grip) is fully closed (or even almost closed) the engine fueling control goes into fuel cut off (shuts fuel injectors COMPLETELY off). The fuel cut-off range on the BMW 1150 (Ma 2.4) is appx. 1800 to redline so I don't understand your comment of -- "Not a factor as the fuel cutoof point is too low to be reached while shifting"

A LOT of BMW boxer riders (especially new to a model riders) simply roll the throttle all the way closed (or almost all the way closed) for the shift & THAT will get them complete fuel cut-off if engine RPM's are above 1800 RPM's (very few riders ever upshift shift at 1800 RPM's or lower). And if they do occasionally upshift at 1800 or lower they seldom complain of that shift being an issue.

 

 

 

 

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I'm a fair weather rider and don't put as many miles on my bike (1999 R1100R) as many folks here - ~4K/year, and I change all three fluids/oils every year. But I've found adding the prescribed amount of Liquid Moly MoS2 anti-friction for gears to the transmission oil makes the shifting a tad smoother. I also add it to the rear diff. I switched to 75/140 last year and that also helped a little bit.

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I'm a fair weather rider and don't put as many miles on my bike (1999 R1100R) as many folks here - ~4K/year, and I change all three fluids/oils every year. But I've found adding the prescribed amount of Liquid Moly MoS2 anti-friction for gears to the transmission oil makes the shifting a tad smoother. I also add it to the rear diff. I switched to 75/140 last year and that also helped a little bit.

 

Morning kalali

 

 

This is a fairly common observation with ANY oil additive used IF that additive is added at the same time as the gear oil is changed. As mentioned above, new (fresh) gear oil (name your oil of choice here) usually improves trans shifting.

 

If you want a true test of the effectiveness of any additive then you need to add it to well used (higher mile) gear oil that is already in the transmission. If THAT improves shifting then you can attribute the improvement to the additive not the gear oil renewal.

 

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"And the BMW fuel injection system that uses a fuel shut-off on dropped throttle down to just above closed throttle idle (shuts the fuel injection off completely & abruptly) when the throttle is closed."

 

- Not a factor as the fuel cutoof point is too low to be reached while shifting

 

I think Craig G meant that fuel cutoff is not a factor for him because he does not allow the engine speed to drop to 1800 rpm during the shift.

 

To clarify my earlier statement, if I do not allow the engine speed to drop more than 10% of the shift point speed, I get a good upshift. i.e. if my shift point is 4500 rpm, and I modulate the throttle to maintain 4100-4500 rpm while the clutch is disengaged during the upshift, the transmission slides into gear pretty as you please. No hurry, no blipping. A steady hand is required, but very little coordination.

 

On downshift, I try to maintain rpm at the shift point speed or a little higher during the shift.

 

 

I agree a little practice helps, but once you have achieved a few silky smooth shifts, the reinforcement is there. Doesn't take much to get the hang of it. JJ

 

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"And the BMW fuel injection system that uses a fuel shut-off on dropped throttle down to just above closed throttle idle (shuts the fuel injection off completely & abruptly) when the throttle is closed."

 

- Not a factor as the fuel cutoof point is too low to be reached while shifting

 

I think Craig G meant that fuel cutoff is not a factor for him because he does not allow the engine speed to drop to 1800 rpm during the shift.

 

 

Afternoon jeffyjeff

 

I have no idea on what Craig meant as all I know is what he wrote.

 

But even if he meant what you just posted that is also not correct--

 

The RPM's do not have to drop to, or below 1800 RPM's-- ALL it takes for fuel shut-off to occur is a closed throttle (or almost closed throttle) & ANY engine RPM's ABOVE 1800.

 

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I have tried all the techniques that are said to work for shifting. (Talking about shifting the R1100) I have found that low speed low RPM shifting is the hardest thing to do. When I am running it hard then it shifts just fine. It is the in town low speed lower RPM shift that is the worst I have ever seen on a motorcycle. But I have found a technique that works. When shifting at lower speed and low RPM I find that before shifting let the RPM stabilize to take the load off of the tranny (no acceleration, do deceleration) and at that point it will shift quite smoothly. It does take a little bit of practice as this is not normally how I would shift any other bike but it works with the BMW. I think it is the unloading of the tranny that makes it all work. There are as I said different techniques but this works for me. As DR said about a fresh oil change, nothing is like a fresh oil change, and if your bike starts to shift badly then change the tranny oil when that happens to go back to improved shifting. But even with older oil, with the unloading method, it does not seem to be a factor for me.

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The Fabricator

I experienced un-smooth shifting on my 2000 R1150gs. Comming off a 1977 R100/7, I was used to clunky shifting, but not wanting to accept it. I knew the FI cut off fuel with the throttle closed. On the old bike, when I come down mountain passes, I just love selecting a high gear so the engine ticks over at about 2K, and just glide down with a gentle putt-putt from the exhaust. Not so the GS. It would engine brake such that it would slow down. And then jerk to life with a touch of throttle. So I adjusted the fast idle at first detente to be around 2k to achieve that effect. In town, I use it also so I get smoother shifts.

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I experienced un-smooth shifting on my 2000 R1150gs. Comming off a 1977 R100/7, I was used to clunky shifting, but not wanting to accept it. I knew the FI cut off fuel with the throttle closed. On the old bike, when I come down mountain passes, I just love selecting a high gear so the engine ticks over at about 2K, and just glide down with a gentle putt-putt from the exhaust. Not so the GS. It would engine brake such that it would slow down. And then jerk to life with a touch of throttle. So I adjusted the fast idle at first detente to be around 2k to achieve that effect. In town, I use it also so I get smoother shifts.

 

 

Interesting on the engine braking.

 

This weekend. I'm taking a Can Am class for no other reason than to do it. And it was only $75. It's fun. The one I had was automatic, but I'll swap for the manual tomorrow. The auto is funny, you "shift" into 1st and the most awful clunk. It's really noticeable. Kinda makes me think of dropping the clutch but it's all electronic.

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You need to explain why you think (fuel cut-off) it isn't a factor? It IS a factor & a very important factor. If engine RPM's are above 1800 RPM's & throttle (twist grip) is fully closed (or even almost closed) the engine fueling control goes into fuel cut off (shuts fuel injectors COMPLETELY off). The fuel cut-off range on the BMW 1150 (Ma 2.4) is appx. 1800 to redline so I don't understand your comment of -- "Not a factor as the fuel cutoof point is too low to be reached while shifting"

A LOT of BMW boxer riders (especially new to a model riders) simply roll the throttle all the way closed (or almost all the way closed) for the shift & THAT will get them complete fuel cut-off if engine RPM's are above 1800 RPM's (very few riders ever upshift shift at 1800 RPM's or lower). And if they do occasionally upshift at 1800 or lower they seldom complain of that shift being an issue.

 

Dirt - I'm not sure it needs explaination as at least one forum member understood perfectly what I wrote. But for your benefit... a very conservative up-shift point for me is approx 3500 rpm with approx 300-400 rpm drop before I'm in the next gear and on the gas. Usually I shift closer to 4K. Nowhere near cuttof. It's incomprehesible to me that anyone, new or not, who has spent more than a few minutes on one these bikes would "roll the throttle all the way closed (or almost all the way closed)" between shifts, I simply don't have that perspective. Surprised you can quantify the number who do so easily.

 

I've read Roger's GS-911 analysis on the matter as you no doubt have but I didn't need to to understand the fuel cutoff properties of the motronic... I can feel it while riding. I maintain that less-than-smooth shifts can occur well above the cuttoff point simply by allowing too much of an RPM drop. I think that point has been well made by several posts in this string.

Edited by Craig G.
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I'm confused: When you pull in the clutch the engine is disconnected from the transmission. The real wheel determines shaft speeds. The input shaft is freewheeling isn't it?

The input shaft is trying to slow down on the up shift, or speed up on the downshift.

Engine speed affects smoothness on clutch release. Someone 'splain this to me please.

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Morning dave_a

 

I'm confused: When you pull in the clutch the engine is disconnected from the transmission.--Correct

 

The real wheel determines shaft speeds. The input shaft is freewheeling isn't it?--As long as the transmission remains in a selected gear then somewhat correct. It isn't exactly freewheeling as it is back driven by the rear wheel back through the gear sets so the shaft speed is controlled.

 

The input shaft is trying to slow down on the up shift, or speed up on the downshift. --It actually isn't trying it is doing as the mechanical gear lockup forces this.

 

Engine speed affects smoothness on clutch release. Someone 'splain this to me please.-- Are you talking on CLUTCH RELEASE or CLUTCH RE-ENGAGMENT after shift?

 

Pretty easy to understand. Engine speed (RPM) right at clutch release is a given based on gear selection & road speed so not much anyone can do about this (it is what it is)

 

If the engine RPM closely matches the trans input shaft RPM then the shift is smooth & seamless.

 

If the engine RPM does not match the trans input shaft speed at after-shift clutch re-engagement then you get a ragged shift feel as the input shaft (driven by the rear wheel back through the gear sets) tries to force the engine RPM to match the input shaft RPM. The farther apart the engine speed & the input shaft speed then the harsher the shift feels.

 

The big influence on the above is the inherent trait of the large piston 2 cylinder BMW boxer engine to slow down (lose RPM's) very quickly on throttle drop (especially if the throttle is rolled off enough to enter fuel cut-off).

 

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Poor choice of words on my part : I meant clutch re-engagement. I thought we were talking about engine speed affecting the changing of gear. Yes ground speed always wins as the "synchronizer". I think this thread is talking about several nuances of shifting. My "bitch" is the actual changing of gears. The clunk or grind as a gear is selected. Some of these characteristics are likely designed in by BMW or Getrag: shift linkage leverage ratios / number of gear dogs & slots versus gear lash etc. Obviously I know enough to be dangerous. since I didn't realize there was a shaft speed gear reduction. I'm changing engine and trans oil today...back to work.

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Poor choice of words on my part : I meant clutch re-engagement. I thought we were talking about engine speed affecting the changing of gear. Yes ground speed always wins as the "synchronizer". I think this thread is talking about several nuances of shifting. My "bitch" is the actual changing of gears. The clunk or grind as a gear is selected. Some of these characteristics are likely designed in by BMW or Getrag: shift linkage leverage ratios / number of gear dogs & slots versus gear lash etc. Obviously I know enough to be dangerous. since I didn't realize there was a shaft speed gear reduction. I'm changing engine and trans oil today...back to work.

 

Afternoon dave_a

 

That crunchy shifting is kind of an issue with some transmissions in some gear ranges.

 

Many contributors to this-- like input shaft/clutch disk spin down time after initial clutch release. If the clutch disk, input shaft, & intermediate shaft don't spin down quick enough then the shift dog to slot speeds differ enough to prevent the shift dog (cogs) smoothly entering the gear slot as they might skip off the engagement the first try. (that is the grind that your hear & feel).

 

A clutch disk that doesn't release cleanly, like worn input shaft/disk hub splines, or clutch disk that rides the housing cover, etc can allow the clutch disk/input shaft to follow the engine RPM's down so unless the engine speed is matched to the next gear selection there can be a big a big difference in the shift dog to slot speeds so that can give a crunchy or a grinding on the shift.

 

Trans design also plays a part, like early 5 speed transmissions that have anti-rattle "O" rings prevent the gears from free spinning on the shafts so that can hinder clean shifting. (BMW eliminated the "O" rings on later transmissions to improve shift quality)

 

The shift dog & gear slot dimensions also play a big part in easy smooth shifting. If the shift dog cogs are too narrow vs the gear slots then the rider gets a LOT of gear lash induced clunking & chuggling but they get better shifting so the trans designers tighten the dog to gear slot slop to improve steady throttle gear lash but that tighter dog to slot fit hinders smooth shifting.

So many designers then open up the slots in the lower gears as the lower gears are usually not transport gears (improves shifting at the expense of annoying gear-train lash). The best working answer on this is to increase the dog to slot slop on the lower gears for better shifting but tighten it up on the upper (transport speed) gear sets for less road speed gear lash. The Japanese transmissions have this down pat but BMW can't seem to get it perfect.

 

Then you have things like worn shift drums or defective shift drums (BMW has a couple of service bulletins on defective shift drums), or worn shift forks (worn shift forks can really effect the gear changes that use 2 shift forks for the shift). Some gear range shifts only use one shift fork as the double sided sliding dog slides out of one gear then along the spline & into the next gear (click/click), while other gear range shifts require the fork & shift dog at one gear set to pull that dog out then another shift fork at another gear set slide that dog into position (lots going on with this shift & much easier to make grind)

 

To make it even worse some riders preload the shift lever prior to the shift & if not done exactly correct, quickly, & precisely can cause a lot of side wear on the shift forks over time.

 

Then you get the basic slop of the free spinning gears or the sliding shift dogs (some just poor quality control at trans build & some due to parts wear over time) if the sliding shift dog is loose on the splines it can tip slightly as the shift is made so it can hang up slightly, or can enter the gear slot at a slight angle & skip off first-try-to-engage. When these parts are worn (or just built incorrectly) if you shift too slowly you get a lazy engagement & a grind & if you shift too fast then you can get a skip off & a grind (a careful purposeful shift can usually make the shift somewhat cleanly).

 

Then over time (or quicker if using bad shift habits) the nice sharp corners of the shift dog cogs wear to a rounded or chipped corners & this makes a clean shift much more difficult & makes getting a grind easier if not a perfectly executed shift.

 

Then you have the back-cut angle of the shift dog cogs & receiving slots-- If there is no back-angle then they tend to shift easier & cleaner on a GOOD shift but with no back-angle they can slip out of gear easily (especially on throttle float or over-run). Or, even if they don't slip out gear they can put a lot of back pressure on the shift forks & cause premature wear (then they slip out of gear).

 

If the back-angle is too steep then they will actually pull the dog into engagement as the dog cogs enter the gear slots but that pull-in can hinder the dog pulling out of the gear slots of the next shift. (a rider can sometimes feel this as a snap-crackle-pop in the shift lever as the shift dog doesn't want to leave the gear it is in easily & smoothly.

 

The big problem is that all the above problems don't usually happen one at time but can stack up together over miles making some transmissions very finicky to get a clean shift on all gear positions all the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Well I'm getting better with the shifting....still a work in process.

 

Finally need to put gas in it. The light came on. So I stopped quickly and filled it up. I could only put in 4 gallons till I saw it filled to the top. How big is the tank? How big is the reserve? No idea what kinda MPG I should expect.

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Mine got 40 mpg when I first got it. New plugs and air filter and regular use (4000 miles over a 3 month period) have improved it to around 43. Check Fuelly.com for others experiences. You should be able to count on a 5 to 5.1 gallon tank capacity stock, with a gallon reserve.

 

Here is a cut and paste from post 1015073, Re: 2004 R1150R-New Problem:

In my experience, a reliable range is 160 miles to low fuel light, with an estimated 40 miles further to empty. However, some of us have modified our fuel tank fill tubes for extra capacity of maybe 0.6 to 0.7 gallon. On my bike, that stretched my range to 201 miles to low fuel light illumination. A few months back, there was some discussion on this at AdvRider. https://advrider.com/index.php?threads/bmw-r-r-thread.844612/page-295. The modification is discussed off and on between posts 5886 and 5930. If you continue reading further, you may be interested in posts 5943-5954 regarding the evaporative emissions system on a '02 R1150R.

JJ

Edited by jeffyjeff
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