Ughh. Won't start

2004 RT, 103k

Got things sorted out after discovering the ignition wire harness had some corrosion. I had previously installed a new oxygen sensor (lazy response times) and the bike was starting and running perfect Friday and Sat. Took a long ride on Sat, and was pleased with how well it ran and more importantly, how smooth the idle was.

I also installed some new relays in the connection box (Load Relief II, Fuel pump, etc.).

So yesterday morning, I suited up and pressed the button. And crank, and crank, and crank. It finally started and ran ok, so I did about a 25 mile ride, stopped for fuel, ran some other errands. Stopped a few times and it started and ran perfect.

Returned home, pulled fuse 5 for about 10 min and did a TPS re-learn. And let it sit for the night.

But this morning, the same thing. Crank, crank, crank but no start. I can hear the pump cycle on key on.

I'll hook up the GS911 this evening to look for codes and I'll check for spark, but not sure why it would run perfect when warm.

Thanks,

RPG

It could be an anaemic alternator (not putting enough juice back into the battery). This would not become apparent until the battery was ground down to a lower voltage over your weekend use.

Before you go deeper, see if you get a clean start with a boost.

If it boosts and starts perfectly, you may want to diagnose the charging system/battery.

If that does nothing for you, My 2003 RT (similar mileage) had a "hard to start" syndrome for a long time, one of the primary stick coils and the secondary coil was the ultimate culprit in my case.

Agreed - either failing battery / charging power....or the dreaded rusty stick coils.

Could also be an intermittent wiring or cable-connection problem. Many boxers were assembled in Spandau by guys who loved to rip the bollocks out of the tough zip-ties that they wrapped around the steering head wiring bundles.

Cut 'em all right off, she cried....

2004 RT, 103k

 

Got things sorted out after discovering the ignition wire harness had some corrosion. I had previously installed a new oxygen sensor (lazy response times) and the bike was starting and running perfect Friday and Sat. Took a long ride on Sat, and was pleased with how well it ran and more importantly, how smooth the idle was.

 

I also installed some new relays in the connection box (Load Relief II, Fuel pump, etc.).

 

So yesterday morning, I suited up and pressed the button. And crank, and crank, and crank. It finally started and ran ok, so I did about a 25 mile ride, stopped for fuel, ran some other errands. Stopped a few times and it started and ran perfect.

 

Returned home, pulled fuse 5 for about 10 min and did a TPS re-learn. And let it sit for the night.

 

But this morning, the same thing. Crank, crank, crank but no start. I can hear the pump cycle on key on.

 

I'll hook up the GS911 this evening to look for codes and I'll check for spark, but not sure why it would run perfect when warm.

 

Thanks,

 

RPG

Morning Rick

Well, if it will crank, crank, crank then your battery seems charged so alternator & battery seem OK.

If it ran good the last time that you rode it then the stick coils are more than likely OK.

Something isn't working on cold start but with both upper & lower spark plugs using different coils it doesn't seem logical that both upper & lower ignition systems failed at the same time. They won't start good on just the lowers but will at least try to start on the lowers only. If you hold the throttle open far enough they will start on just the lowers.

This sort of leave us with a fueling issue, like water in fuel or fuel pump impeller spinning free on the motor shaft when cold, or split in-tank hose, engine sensor issue, or ??????

Can you remember what the tachometer was doing when you were cranking it?

You might also have a problem with your oil temp sensor (look at this with your GS-911 but do it cold before trying to start engine).

From way it has been running for you (once started) then it sounds like you will need to do your troubleshooting on an overnight cold engine to catch the culprit.

To catch your cold starting issue you might need to rig up a spark test to run on attempted cold start as well as put a tee in the fuel return hose to test for return fuel flow on cold start.

Another thing to look at is: next time it will crank, crank, crank but no start-- before it fires try removing one lower & one upper spark plug to look for signs of raw fuel on the plugs-- If plugs are wet with fuel then look for lack of spark on cold start.

You might also buy (or build) a noid light to plug into one of your fuel injector plugs, the noid light is great way to see if you are getting injector trigger-on during engine cranking.

It could be an anaemic alternator (not putting enough juice back into the battery). This would not become apparent until the battery was ground down to a lower voltage over your weekend use.

Before you go deeper, see if you get a clean start with a boost.

 

If it boosts and starts perfectly, you may want to diagnose the charging system/battery.

 

If that does nothing for you, My 2003 RT (similar mileage) had a "hard to start" syndrome for a long time, one of the primary stick coils and the secondary coil was the ultimate culprit in my case.

Morning Claudio, battery voltage (static) is always a healthy 12.7. When running, it measures around 13.8vdc, at idle. Alternator appears to be working fine, even with 100k+ miles.

Thanks,

RPG

Agreed - either failing battery / charging power....or the dreaded rusty stick coils.

 

Could also be an intermittent wiring or cable-connection problem. Many boxers were assembled in Spandau by guys who loved to rip the bollocks out of the tough zip-ties that they wrapped around the steering head wiring bundles.

 

Cut 'em all right off, she cried....

I've gone through the ignition harness with a complete disassembly and cleaning of the switch. Found some issues with a few of the wires (high resistance) that were re-paired over the weekend. Tight zip ties were removed and cursed quite a few years ago when I had the first hints of loss of power.

thanks,

RPG

2004 RT, 103k

 

Got things sorted out after discovering the ignition wire harness had some corrosion. I had previously installed a new oxygen sensor (lazy response times) and the bike was starting and running perfect Friday and Sat. Took a long ride on Sat, and was pleased with how well it ran and more importantly, how smooth the idle was.

 

I also installed some new relays in the connection box (Load Relief II, Fuel pump, etc.).

 

So yesterday morning, I suited up and pressed the button. And crank, and crank, and crank. It finally started and ran ok, so I did about a 25 mile ride, stopped for fuel, ran some other errands. Stopped a few times and it started and ran perfect.

 

Returned home, pulled fuse 5 for about 10 min and did a TPS re-learn. And let it sit for the night.

 

But this morning, the same thing. Crank, crank, crank but no start. I can hear the pump cycle on key on.

 

I'll hook up the GS911 this evening to look for codes and I'll check for spark, but not sure why it would run perfect when warm.

 

Thanks,

 

RPG

 

Morning Rick

 

Well, if it will crank, crank, crank then your battery seems charged so alternator & battery seem OK.Agreed

If it ran good the last time that you rode it then the stick coils are more than likely OK.Stick coils seem fine as they both spark when the engine cranks.

Something isn't working on cold start but with both upper & lower spark plugs using different coils it doesn't seem logical that both upper & lower ignition systems failed at the same time. They won't start good on just the lowers but will at least try to start on the lowers only. If you hold the throttle open far enough they will start on just the lowers. Funny you mention that. With the cold start lever on in the detent position it won't start, but if I add throttle and crank long enough it sometimes fires. That seems to be a case of the lower plugs firing on their own, but every time I check the stick coils, they spark.

 

This sort of leave us with a fueling issue, like water in fuel or fuel pump impeller spinning free on the motor shaft when cold, or split in-tank hose, engine sensor issue, or ?????? I checked fuel pressure last week and it always register's around 40psi with key on. It falls a bit with key on, which I believe is normal, but then returns to 40psi with engine running. I haven't removed the injector's to check fuel flow or have I routed the return line into a jar either. I will look at doing both this evening.

 

Can you remember what the tachometer was doing when you were cranking it? I don't recall D.R. I need to look at that.

 

You might also have a problem with your oil temp sensor (look at this with your GS-911 but do it cold before trying to start engine). I can definitely check that. Last time I had the GS911 hooked up, the engine was warm so I'll check that cold.

 

From way it has been running for you (once started) then it sounds like you will need to do your troubleshooting on an overnight cold engine to catch the culprit.

 

To catch your cold starting issue you might need to rig up a spark test to run on attempted cold start as well as put a tee in the fuel return hose to test for return fuel flow on cold start. I ran a spark test last evening on the cold engine. Stick coils only and both were firing. I plan on doing the fuel test this evening. I tested the lower spark plugs a couple weeks ago and found no issues there.

 

Another thing to look at is: next time it will crank, crank, crank but no start-- before it fires try removing one lower & one upper spark plug to look for signs of raw fuel on the plugs-- If plugs are wet with fuel then look for lack of spark on cold start. Will do. FWIW, both upper plugs were removed last night and I saw no signs of fuel after cranking. I didn't check the lowers because I still have the panels attached.

 

You might also buy (or build) a noid light to plug into one of your fuel injector plugs, the noid light is great way to see if you are getting injector trigger-on during engine cranking. Not sure if it's the same thing but I did remove both injector harnesses previously to look at the contacts, and make sure they were seated and tight. No issues there so I installed a spare 194 Automotive 12vdc bulb and on engine cranking, both bulbs flickered on and off, indicating to me (if I have it right) that voltage pulses are being sent to both injectors.

 

The frustrating part about this is with 100k+ miles, the mind starts thinking that everything might be an issue. Original components still on the bike include:

Alternator

Fuel pump (filter and rubber hoses replaced a few years ago)

 

Thanks very much,

I'll report back after troubleshooting this evening.

 

RPG

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cold start, it fired right up immediately. Ughhhhh

Then I disconnected both fuel injector harnesses to check for fuel flow. And the right one has cut marks on the insulation. Still making contact but for some reason, its cut. I'll need to repair it.

GS911 hooked up before starting sees engine temp = 69.8F and ambient air temp = 71.6F

Continuing along with fuel flow tests

RPG

Further, GS911 shows no error codes other than the normal Hall Effect Sensor errors.

Fuel flow is strong on the return line with key on, slightly dissipating until strong again with engine crank.

Fuel pressure measure 42 psi with key on, again slightly falling until back to 42 psi again with engine cranking.

Attached is the image of the insulation cuts on the fuel injector harness (right side)

I need to kind of get lucky and now check some things when the engine won't start. Problems like this are easier to troubleshoot IMHO when there's an outright failure.

RPG

I decided to spring for a new set of stick coils which arrived Friday. All weekend long, the bike started effortlessly, smooth idle, ran like new.

Then this morning, after loading up for my work commute, it wouldn't start. Crank, but no start.

Key on: I noticed the kickstand was down (bike on centerstand) and the kill switch was in one of the off positions. Centered the killswitch, raised the kickstand and didn't see the RID come back on. hmmm

My understanding is that with the killswitch centered, even if in gear, the RID and the fuel pump will power up.

Verified it was in neutral. Turned the key off and back on, and voila, RID back on, "0" indicated. Cranked the engine over and it sputtered a bit but finally fired and idled smoothly as it did last night.

Played with the sidestand, moving it up and down and cannot repeat behavior. Rode 60 miles to work. Ran perfect, idled perfect. Put on centerstand, raised and lowered kickstand, and observed normal behavior, in and out of gear, killswitch off and on.

Planning a trip this weekend to Hocking Hills, OH, but I might be taking the R90s.

RPG

Maybe the wires going to the kill switch? What happens when you wiggle them? I've heard of that wire bundle at the right handgrip causing problems because it's zip-tied to the handlebar too tight.

Maybe the wires going to the kill switch? What happens when you wiggle them? I've heard of that wire bundle at the right handgrip causing problems because it's zip-tied to the handlebar too tight.

Just put all the tupperware back on. Ughh. But I know I can access the actual switch at the kickstand so I'll check the connection/wires there. I'll look at the right handgrip side as suggested also.

Thanks!

Looking at the sequence, it sounds like turning the key off and on was what brought power to the Motronic so that it cycled the pump. Before that you moved the sidestand and kill switch with the key on and got no pump. By then key off key on and it lit up. Sounds like the key switch.

I decided to spring for a new set of stick coils which arrived Friday. All weekend long, the bike started effortlessly, smooth idle, ran like new.

 

Then this morning, after loading up for my work commute, it wouldn't start. Crank, but no start.

 

Key on: I noticed the kickstand was down (bike on centerstand) and the kill switch was in one of the off positions. Centered the killswitch, raised the kickstand and didn't see the RID come back on. hmmm

My understanding is that with the killswitch centered, even if in gear, the RID and the fuel pump will power up.

 

Verified it was in neutral. Turned the key off and back on, and voila, RID back on, "0" indicated. Cranked the engine over and it sputtered a bit but finally fired and idled smoothly as it did last night.

 

Played with the sidestand, moving it up and down and cannot repeat behavior. Rode 60 miles to work. Ran perfect, idled perfect. Put on centerstand, raised and lowered kickstand, and observed normal behavior, in and out of gear, killswitch off and on.

 

Planning a trip this weekend to Hocking Hills, OH, but I might be taking the R90s.

 

RPG

I need to go through everything again. Couldn't get it started at work yesterday so after 38 years of owning and riding BMW's, some 300,000+ miles, I finally had to call a tow.

The BMW MOA Platinum Roadside assistance worked great. The driver showed up with a flatbed and a rolling Condor system. Since my 60 mile commute was under the 100 mile max, it was all covered.

The driver was the owner and a great guy, (https://www.tcombtowing.com/), so we had a great conversation, mostly bikes and women.

Now I just have to dig into it again, pull the panels. Or, say screw it and take my perfectly running R90s to southern OH this weekend for a 3 day run through some of the Windy9 routes. (www.windy9.com)

Votes????? RT or R90s?

RPG

Did you replace battery?

If so, 90S.

If not...

Did you replace battery?

 

If so, 90S.

 

If not...

Battery is an Odyssey PC680 and only about 2 years old. Nevertheless, I had it load tested a couple weeks ago and it checked out fine.

The R90s is looking like a more thrilling option anyway.

Test it after running accessories?