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02 1150 RT Vapor lock? Stumbles on warm restart. ???


pjw73nh

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Greetings,

 

I had clutch/spline surgery done by the dealer 2 winters ago. When I got the bike back, I did a full brake service including all pads. I also did a valve adj and TB sync on it before driving it. Since that time I've got barely 2000 miles on it. It acts up a bit in warmer weather only after sitting for a few minutes. It has done this since the repairs. It didn't do it before the repairs. Either the dealer or I caused it. I don't care, I just want to fix it. It can be dangerous.

 

Symptoms: When cold (bike and ambient temp) no issues. When ambient is above 55-60, after the bike has come up to temp, and then I stop for coffee or whatever, if I stop for more than 4-5 minutes, I will restart the bike fine, usually make it out of the parking lot, and then it starts to sputter and spit a bit. Usually under medium load (accelerating to join traffic), and it lasts about 3-5 seconds. It lasts longer and is generally worse the hotter it is outside. If I let the bike cool to 3 bars or less, it doesn't act up. After it gets through this phase it runs fine until I stop again.

 

To me, it reminds me of the old car days of "vapor lock" when the fuel lines in the engine were to close to a heat source, and the residual heat from the engine would vaporize the fuel in the lines causing a bit of an embolism.

 

The fuel lines on the bike appear to be where they should be.

 

Thoughts, comments, suggestions welcome...

 

Tnx

 

P.../NH

 

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Do you have a Techlusion box hooked up? my 1150 did the exact same thing when I had one hooked up. Tech guy said that its a glitch on the 1150 as the box was designed for 1100's.

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Howdy'

 

My 02 does something very similar. On a hot or warm restart it will come up to normal idle, then after a few seconds it'll drop to 800 or so. It will stay there for 10-15 seconds then slowly come back up to normal. And it aint a smooth 800.

 

I'm starting to wonder if this is an O2 sensor related problem. My bike has a 259 techlusion also. However, I don't think the techlusion kicks in until above 1500 rpm. I'm not sure how much effect the O2 has at idle. I believe the O2 has to be at a certain temperature to function correctly. Maybe it's at an in between temp after a short cool off that's a factor.

 

I haven't disconnected the O2 or the techlusion. You can shut off the techlusion by turning the cruise pot up to 11 o'clock without disconnecting it. For now, I just blip the throttle a couple times as it's starting to stumble and it settles down to normal. I would definitely like to discover the root cause.

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Morning pjw73nh

 

It does sound a bit like vapor lock but on a fuel injected system with pre-start fuel pump operation that should purge the fuel system of hot fuel vapors unless the lines are completely full on hot fuel vapors.

 

First thing is make sure your fuel return line is open & flowing fuel back into the tank. Also make sure the lines are hooked up correctly & not reversed. A blocked return line can cause similar issues to what you are seeing.

Maybe try key-on then key-off for a few seconds than key back on again (that should give you a double fuel pump purge cycle)

 

Next make sure your fuel lines are not laying on hot engine parts therefore causing hot soaking of the fuel in the lines to boil. If you have an external fuel filter that can also add to hot-soak fuel boiling issues.

 

 

If nothing found in the above maybe you have a blocked or incorrectly working fuel tank vent. With a high pressure fuel pump “inside” the fuel tank that can supply fuel to the injectors even with a high vacuum in the tank so they will usually run OK but at shut down that high tank vacuum can pull air back up the fuel lines and air-soak the fuel lines and regulator. SO, maybe try opening the fuel cap after riding a while the see if you hear a whooshing sound as you open the cap. Also, maybe try parking the hot bike with the fuel cap slightly open to see if that effects the hot starting problem.

 

One other thing is to try different gasoline AFTER your present load is ridden out. Not likely but sure a possibility is that you got a load of incorrect vapor pressure gasoline (like winter gasoline) that boils at a very low ambient temperature.

 

We might also be barking up the wrong tree here as your problem could be something else like a weak hot ignition system or bad 02 sensor (I have seen moisture in the 02 connector cause similar issues to what you have as heater power bleeds into the sensing circuit).—So maybe as a test try disconnecting the 02 sensor then ride it to verify the 02 isn’t causing your issue.

 

 

 

 

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  • 7 years later...

Dirtrider, Thank you for your input, and I apologize for not following up with this. The fact is I have just lived with the issue up to this point. It hasn't been debilitating and I can "nurse" the bike through the few seconds of sputtering and then it smooths out when it does happen.

 

Time to resurrect this old (very old) thread. I have just now decided to tackle this issue. See original symptoms in first post above. Here

 

AND. I'm going to add a symptom that may help diagnose the problem. Please remember that this problem started after either 1. I had the clutch and trans rebuilt at the dealer -OR- 2. Just after I got it back and "I" did a full brake service. I got the bike back from the dealer in January and didn't ride it. Maybe just around the block as there was snow everywhere. So I never had a chance to bring it up to temp back then. Then I did a brake service which DID involve pulling the tank.

 

Now for the additional symptom which I hope will give you a clue as to what the issue might be. The bike has been living in a "breathable' shed for the past several years (riding it only occasionally) until this spring when I started storing it in my garage. The first morning after moving it to the garage, I walked in and smelled gasoline very strong. It could have been my lawnmowers, snowblowers or any of my 4 gas cans. It wasn't. I have since conclusively determined it is the 1150 RT. If I move (push, not start) it, out of the garage and store it outside, the garage no longer smells like gas. There is and never has been ANY evidence of leaking. (I did have the recall for the quick connects done several years ago). If I (push not run) the bike back in the garage, the next morning it smells again. There is no doubt that it is the 1150 RT that is making it smell. Even after 3-4 months of not even STARTING it, just storing it in the garage it still makes the garage smell like gas fumes. As long as it is in the garage, regardless of how much time passes, whether it is run or not, the smell NEVER lets up. Again, NEVER any sign of leaking. I tried running the tank low (not out), and it STILL smells just as strong.

 

It's back in the garage now , smelling like it always does and I am just about to clear an area to work on it. I was going to take the right side tupperware off and check there first. You mentioned it may be the supply and return lines are crossed. I am hoping it is that simple. I have the Clymers manual and it doesn't do a very good job at showing which lines are which. I am hoping someone here has a diagram or a picture/video I could use to properly identify the supply and return lines.

 

Thanks for any more help you may be able to provide.

 

 

PS. No Techlusion. The bike is stock with the exception of a "canisterectomy".

 

 

Edited by pjw73nh
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Dirtrider, Thank you for your input, and I apologize for not following up with this. The fact is I have just lived with the issue up to this point. It hasn't been debilitating and I can "nurse" the bike through the few seconds of sputtering and then it smooths out when it does happen.

 

Time to resurrect this old (very old) thread. I have just now decided to tackle this issue. See original symptoms in first post above. Here

 

AND. I'm going to add a symptom that may help diagnose the problem. Please remember that this problem started after either 1. I had the clutch and trans rebuilt at the dealer -OR- 2. Just after I got it back and "I" did a full brake service. I got the bike back from the dealer in January and didn't ride it. Maybe just around the block as there was snow everywhere. So I never had a chance to bring it up to temp back then. Then I did a brake service which DID involve pulling the tank.

 

Now for the additional symptom which I hope will give you a clue as to what the issue might be. The bike has been living in a "breathable' shed for the past several years (riding it only occasionally) until this spring when I started storing it in my garage. The first morning after moving it to the garage, I walked in and smelled gasoline very strong. It could have been my lawnmowers, snowblowers or any of my 4 gas cans. It wasn't. I have since conclusively determined it is the 1150 RT. If I move (push, not start) it, out of the garage and store it outside, the garage no longer smells like gas. There is and never has been ANY evidence of leaking. (I did have the recall for the quick connects done several years ago). If I (push not run) the bike back in the garage, the next morning it smells again. There is no doubt that it is the 1150 RT that is making it smell. Even after 3-4 months of not even STARTING it, just storing it in the garage it still makes the garage smell like gas fumes. As long as it is in the garage, regardless of how much time passes, whether it is run or not, the smell NEVER lets up. Again, NEVER any sign of leaking. I tried running the tank low (not out), and it STILL smells just as strong.

 

It's back in the garage now , smelling like it always does and I am just about to clear an area to work on it. I was going to take the right side tupperware off and check there first. You mentioned it may be the supply and return lines are crossed. I am hoping it is that simple. I have the Clymers manual and it doesn't do a very good job at showing which lines are which. I am hoping someone here has a diagram or a picture/video I could use to properly identify the supply and return lines.

 

Thanks for any more help you may be able to provide.

 

 

PS. No Techlusion. The bike is stock with the exception of a "canisterectomy".

 

 

Afternoon pjw73nh

 

As a rule the gasoline smell comes from the quick disconnects. It is ever so easy to nick one of the "O" rings inside a quick disconnect when disconnecting or re-connecting the quick disconnect IF the trigger isn't held all the way down when pulling them apart or pushing them together. (if you can't find another leak then I would suggest that you replace the "O" rings in the quick disconnects as a starting point).

 

On the fuel lines-- The top plastic line coming form the rear is the return line & the bottom plastic line coming from the rear is the pressure line. The front hoses shouldn't cross each other.

 

 

 

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Thanks Dirtrider, Just the info I needed. i guess I wasn't aware that the o rings have a finite lifetime. I have since read several posts where folks have had them "dry out" , come loose from their seats and cause issues. Only to find some that after the bikes was run for a while, they sometimes "re-seat" and symptoms go away.

 

I am not going to be able to get to my repairs for a couple of weeks, but I am hopeful that my fix is an easy one. Starting with the O rings, and then verifying the supply/return lines. I have found a conflict in part numbers for the O rings. Beemer boneyard has one number, and Max's BMW fiche has another. Do you know if one is one outdated/superceded ? I take it, like most o rings, the replacement is a simple process ? Pick the old ones out and seat the new ones in ?

 

Thanks again for all your help on this forum. Your advice has helped hundreds of riders...

Edited by pjw73nh
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Thanks Dirtrider, Just the info I needed. i guess I wasn't aware that the o rings have a finite lifetime. I have since read several posts where folks have had them "dry out" , come loose from their seats and cause issues. Only to find some that after the bikes was run for a while, they sometimes "re-seat" and symptoms go away.

 

I am not going to be able to get to my repairs for a couple of weeks, but I am hopeful that my fix is an easy one. Starting with the O rings, and then verifying the supply/return lines. I have found a conflict in part numbers for the O rings. Beemer boneyard has one number, and Max's BMW fiche has another. Do you know if one is one outdated/superceded ? I take it, like most o rings, the replacement is a simple process ? Pick the old ones out and seat the new ones in ?

 

Thanks again for all your help on this forum. Your advice has helped hundreds of riders...

 

Morning pjw73nh

 

I really can't help you with the "O" ring number mis-match. I don't use either BMW or Beemer Boneyard "O" rings as I won't pay that much money for simple "O" rings.

 

I just remove the "O" rings then grab some matching "O" rings from my "O" ring kit.

 

You can remove your "O" rings then head off to the local auto parts store & just match up what you need (something fuel proof is needed like nitrile or viton).

 

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Didn't read whole thread, sorry.

 

Do you have the metal versions of quick connect?

If not, probably a good idea.

 

They come with O rings :)

or did.

Best wishes/

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks Dirtrider and Tall, and all.

 

Just got back and am tackling this issue now.

 

I am completely baffled at this point. When I took the tupperware off, I immediately knew the issue was the QDs as neither one was fully connected or seated. They just fell apart when I tugged on them ever so slightly.

 

That said, I was surprised when the flow of fuel did not stop. I was under the impression that once the pressure was released, and SOME fuel was drained, that would be all. Nope. It kept on pouring and pouring. Hence my cork in the supply line.

 

So now I am left with what you see in the pics. I am baffled. I can't find any O rings. Does anyone have a close-up picture of the QDs ? Or can someone explain or draw arrows on my pics as to where the ORings are (or should be?). Are mine broken, defective or somehow different from the norm?

 

I attempted to upload a few pics, but got a warning that I could only upload one. So here is a link to my 3 pics.

 

2002 Fuel Quick Disconnects

 

I am confused but want to put this to bed.

 

Thanks.

 

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Thanks Dirtrider and Tall, and all.

 

Just got back and am tackling this issue now.

 

I am completely baffled at this point. When I took the tupperware off, I immediately knew the issue was the QDs as neither one was fully connected or seated. They just fell apart when I tugged on them ever so slightly.

 

That said, I was surprised when the flow of fuel did not stop. I was under the impression that once the pressure was released, and SOME fuel was drained, that would be all. Nope. It kept on pouring and pouring. Hence my cork in the supply line.

 

So now I am left with what you see in the pics. I am baffled. I can't find any O rings. Does anyone have a close-up picture of the QDs ? Or can someone explain or draw arrows on my pics as to where the ORings are (or should be?). Are mine broken, defective or somehow different from the norm?

 

I attempted to upload a few pics, but got a warning that I could only upload one. So here is a link to my 3 pics.

 

2002 Fuel Quick Disconnects

 

I am confused but want to put this to bed.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Afternoon pjw73nh

 

That quick disconnect is broken. The broken piece is supposed to be permanently connected. That stuck broken part contains the valve so it can't shut off due to the broken piece holding the valve open.

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Thank you all for your assistance with this issue. In the process of disassembly, one of the male connectors broke. It was VERY brittle. I decided I had had enough. Went to Max's got a set of steel QDs and Oetiker clamps. A dremel, and 1/2 hour later and all done.

 

No more leak, no more smell and no more "vapor lock" issue.

Thanks again to all.

 

Now to put the tuppeware back on.

 

Thanks.

 

7054.jpg.87cf030abf19cfe6db2350e23d19ba5a.jpg

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Those are broken OEM connectors. The white male parts are still inserted into the female part. In other words it did not come apart at the right place. The what should be the male part broke off in the female part. If you press the metal tap you should be able to remove the white part from the female part. It will probably take pliers. After getting it out you will see the o-ring.

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here is a link to the original fuel disconnect pictures .

the tips of the male ends are white and are spring loaded . not the whole male end .

the o ring is on the very end of the black male part .

the male ends were replaced with a stainless part years ago. Triumph , Ducati, BMW all ended up replacing some of the QD fittings with metal after having long term issues .

Here is the link . scroll a bit to the correct picture . i'll PM you a pic with a red arrow of sorts pointing to the o ring .

http://www.largiader.com/articles/fueltank/

Edited by Tri750
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Thank you all for your assistance with this issue. In the process of disassembly, one of the male connectors broke. It was VERY brittle. I decided I had had enough. Went to Max's got a set of steel QDs and Oetiker clamps. A dremel, and 1/2 hour later and all done.

 

No more leak, no more smell and no more "vapor lock" issue.

Thanks again to all.

 

Now to put the tuppeware back on.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Replacing the QD with metal ones on these bikes is a good thing to do

even without the symptoms you had.

Not if, but when, wrt failure.

Glad that sorted it out.

Best wishes.

 

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Thank you all for your assistance with this issue. In the process of disassembly, one of the male connectors broke. It was VERY brittle. I decided I had had enough. Went to Max's got a set of steel QDs and Oetiker clamps. A dremel, and 1/2 hour later and all done.

 

No more leak, no more smell and no more "vapor lock" issue.

Thanks again to all.

 

Now to put the tuppeware back on.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Morning pjw73nh

 

Nice neat job in replacing your old QD's. That should repair your problem for many years to come.

 

 

ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7054&filename=IMG_0277.jpg

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