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#2737 - 08/20/02 02:56 AM Master Yoda's Riding Position
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
"Dick Frantz' Riding Position" gets referred to a lot on several forums of the BMWRT.COM Discussion Board. It turns out that when its PRICIPLES are applied to create certain kinds of body part relationships that it applies to almost all motorcycles. I view that as a "Perspective" to share, and my words as direction toward things to look at, and seeing, to learn what might make things better for you all.

So, I thought I'd write up a "short version" of it, and SAVE it somewhere. In the next few days, I'll build it into a comprehensive Article that can be referred to anytime -- and hopefully we'll get recourses to build us a FAQ particularly for those unfamiliar with the K1200RS, and place it there with the many, many things we've all found out about the K1200RS.


First, the K1200RS is NOT a Sport Bike. It is a Sport Tourer, and has characteristics that make it very strong at that task or that kind of riding. That also makes it LOOK LIKE a Sport Bike, and also DO THINGS that are considered strong points of Sport Bikes. From my perspective, the KRS is not better than "good" at being a Sport Bike, except that it rises to "very good" or even to "exceptional" at things like Linear Response; Handling Uneven Road Surfaces; Stability in All Cornering Modes; Stability Leaving Corners; and Braking. It also does All Day Sporty Riding at an elevated level, something that MASTER YODA expects from Sport Bikes (and is absent in the current Race Replicas that are CALLED Sport Bikes).

The "All Day Comfort Thing", is REQUIRED of a Sport Tourer. When someone finds that absent in the K1200RS, I question how they are operating it. True, individual physiology, our frigging size(S), and any deficiencies (I have two VERY injured knees), can effect how ANY riding configuration is responded to, and then thought about. But, I consider that any fairly healthy person who falls within perhaps the 95th percentile of sizes can be, or BECOME comfortable riding the bike. Why? IT WAS BUILT TO PROVIDE THAT.


You sit ON TOP OF a Sport Bike. You sit WITHIN a K1200RS.

Sport Bikes REQUIRE getting weight OFF YOUR BUTT so the rider can slide his/her butt inside corners to effect a different CG. CONSEQUENTLY, Sport Bikes INDUCE "weight on the handle bars".

Someone sitting on a K1200RS will note some ergonomic differences, and FALL TOWARD, positioning their body AS IF they were riding a Sport Bike. DUMB!!!! Well, not so much dumb as UNINFORMED. They've PREJUDICED, rather than EXAMINED.

They probably also CARRY FORWARD certain muscle memories DEVELOPED, NOT BORN WITH, from riding other conveyances, SOME of which can have been motorcycles. ARM CHAIRS come to mind In short, people have LEARNED... TO SIT UPRIGHT. It is NOT in fact a FUNCTION for which the human body was designed ---- AND continued practice CAUSES DAMAGE.

AUTOMOBILES PROMULGATE THE SEATED POSTION. Only lately have they applied several things like Lumbar Support to keep that position from KILLING the user. Oh... forgive my hyperbole, but SITTING UP just is NOT good for you.

MOST motorcycles CONTINUE THE PROMUGATION. To one degree or another, they emulate "Sit Upright" (So much so that the term UJM, Universal Japanese Motorcycle, was partially defined by a riding position called "Sit Up and BEG", like a puppy.). This position became A MENTAL NORM. We THINK that's "how a motorcycle is ridden" -- HUGE numbers of us. Well, the important thing to remember is YOU LEARNED to do it that way (Remember how you BECAME ABLE to ride for longer and longer periods?): You can LEARN "something else".


The largest, developed, muscle memory is the angle between torso and thighs. This is controlled by the LARGEST muscles involved in riding. We set that PATTERN, not an "exactness" very early in American life by our caregivers "Sitting Us in Chairs". Note that SOUTHEAST ASIAN PEOPLES go about TEACHING their kids to SQUAT, and that brings on an ENTIRELY DIFFERNT THIGH/TORSO relationship. In fact, that posture is MUCH MORE COMMON ACROSS ALL OF ASIA. Anybody care to guess where JAPAN is located? People sitting on tatami mats, or with feet and legs folded beneath their butt -- and THUS, torsos leaned forward? Hmmmmm.

Anyway, some things can be difficult to overcome for some folks --- WHEN they have become HABITS rather than cognizant, controlled RESPONSES. A great example is about leaning motorcycles in corners. The human develops a sense of danger when leaning any farther than they can do so when STANDING UP. HUGE danger signals are sent when lean angle extends much beyond the angle the neck can be bent AND STILL KEEP THE EYES LEVEL (20 to 30 degrees). It's OUR Response to BODY SIGNALS I'm referring to that can make up our "sense" of our comfort levels. Those things can CHANGE --- WHEN WE CONTROLTHEM, rather than the other way round.

The K1200RS calls for, was DESIGNED TO PROMOTE a CANTED FORWARD RIDING POSITION. Yes, very much, this was done on purpose by BMW. They knew it was REQUIRED to get the K1200RS performing to the desired levels, AND, very much, KEEP the rider COMFORTABLE for LONG PERIODS OF TIME, in the regimes where the bike was intended to be most often used (i.e. NOT riding on city streets). It all starts with a LOW SEATING POSITION -- NOT high, like a Sport Bike.

BMW then set out to DISCOVER, "what else" needed to be done to: 1) ADD comfort to this position (Provide a supporting airflow); 2) SUPPORT the position (Move the pegs downward, but still allow GOOD clearance when cornering to SPORT TOURING levels); 3) Reduce effort to maintain the position (Move them FORWARD to change the "Support Vector").

THIS REMOVES THE NEED TO PLACE ANY WEIGHT ON THE HANDLE BARS. Do so if you wish, but you'll pay the price in Comfort. AND, you'll find that you MAKE THE BIKE FEEL DULL AND UNRESPONSIVE, when compared to properly, YES, PROPERLY, distributing your weight about the bike. "Properly" is appropriate here in light of GAINING the Performance Qualities BMW BUILT INTO the bike. And, this should give some insight into WHY Motorcycle Magazines don't seem to find the riding qualities we owners do when they test the K1200RS: THEY ARE RIDING IT WRONG -- Differently than it was designed to BE RIDDEN.


The keynotes to "the" Riding Position are:
  • Bend at the HIPS, not waist
  • Maintain a SLIGHT arch to the back, not allowing it ever to "curve"
  • Move the butt AFT so the weight is OVER YOUR FEET.
  • Apply pressure to the feet, using the THIGH muscles, so you are sitting "lightly"
  • ELBOWS BENT, now DROP the hands to the bars.


One needs to move fore and aft on the seat to make ALL those things happen. Except for the Hip Bend, they are NOT Absolutes, but rather RANGES. Move about until you can see ALL of them are happening to some extent -- and NO weight is being placed on the handlebars.

Do this when the bike is STATIONARY. Sit on the stopped bike. TAKE TIME TO do this. PRACTICE. LEARN.

In fact, one must TEACH their own body. This is called TRAINING. You'll notice all GOOD training is done by ABSTRACT EXERCISES, not "just running off to the playing field and doing what you HEARD."

LEARN to press down with the feet. Then, when riding, CHECK that's what you are actually doing. You SHOULD be able to lift your butt off the seat at a milisecond's notice: As when knowingly approaching a severe bump in the road.

LEARN to bend at the hips. Do it BOTH ways, and show YOURSELF that you CAN operate the body differently. BE WILLING to touch that frigging gas tank. SOME people are incredibly fearful of touching a gas tank -- It's almost laughable. WHO SAID you shouldn't touch the gas tank? (Afraid of scratches? Poo, poo. Get some clear tank protector.) Better to think "The gas tank is my FRIEND." It WILL be some day when you are six hundred miles into your ride and still two hundred miles from your destination. OR, while you are LEARNING to ride this bike and may be only an hour or so into your ride. Your body is NOT YET... TRAINED to operate that way.

FLOP YOUR ELBOWS. PROVE you have your weight supported, mostly by your feet, and by your butt. Do it while riding too. Even after 25,000 miles on an RS I STILL end up leaning onto the bars somewhat and need to readjust my position.


Many people will need to CHANGE the riding position they use for riding on the K1200RS. Understand one OPERATES their body to do virtually anything (except things like sleep, and even there...). Because "Sit Up" is so common in our lives, it can come to seem we are not OPERATING the body, even to "just sit". But, sit on a wooden stool for six hours and send me your impressions of what you encounter. ALL OF IT is something called WORK.

On bikes LIKE the K1200RS (Aprilia Falco and ZZ-R1200 come to mind) a MODERATE riding position is called for, but one that is still a CHANGE for some folks. What one must do, is FIRST Change One's Mind. Then, go about changing one's USE of one's body. Mind controls Body (In HEALTY people).

DO IT RIGHT. Take the time to sit on the stationary bike every day when you first get it (or go do a Test Ride). Flex, tighten, relax, and move about across a small but definite range of positions on the bike. Then, "get it right" and without moving, FLEX all your body muscles, in order, from the feet toward the hands and head. FEEL what that feels like when you relax each muscle, and are STILL holding the proper Riding Position. Close your eyes and FEEL IT. Not ALL the muscles are FULLY relaxed. You are USING some of them. How? How much? To do WHAT?

Then, when you've done that for all the body's muscles (even the ones you don't THINK you are using), Flex them ALL, and relax and FEEL IT OVER ALL. Even go so far as to "stand back 10 feet and look at yourself" if you can. Feel and See.

Now, in your ride, attempt to maintain THAT position (with appropriate changes to handle riding circumstances) for as long in your ride as you can. When you tire, STOP. Get off the bike and bend, stretch, and flex all your muscles. WALK until your walking feels normal. Then get back on the bike IN THE PROPER POSTION THAT YOU CHECKED BEFORE RIDING OFF, and repeat. You'll find you ride longer and longer, and comfort GROWS AND GROWS. Eventually, IT WILL SEEM NORMAL.

One note is that if you notice "being tense", either some "bulk of muscles are being tight", or that you have "a pain" or "a tight cord" or some other sharp discomfort, do stop. You are COMPENSATING for something that has ALREADY become tired. You should have stopped sooner, and you need to develop THAT muscle that you tired out. Right then, it will be had to find that muscle, so NEXT time you start riding, do a better job before riding off of FINDING what muscles you really need to use to hold that positions (like you hold ANY position). Then ride in perhaps a less intense environment so you can PAY ATTENTION to shifts in your muscles use, and PARTICULARLY, Elbow Flopping, Butt Lifting, and Neck Twisting. I promise, if you are doing this CORRECTLY, pains should disappear, and NOT be present. But note, that even MASTER YODA gets tired, his MUSCLES get tired during a 14 hour riding day... and sometimes a SIX hour riding day.

USE YOUR THIGH MUSCLES. They are the most powerful in your body. And, they tire less and less quickly. Place your body weight so THEY can be doing the work. Even with bad knees and a bad back, I can ride this lovely performing machine from sunset to long past sunrise. And, many guys can ride longer than I do. Dammit.


Blessings to you all.

rdf


_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2738 - 08/20/02 03:11 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
SageRider Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 8287
Loc: Minden, Nevada
As usual, a fascinating, interesting, and informative article.
Thank you!
_________________________
Michael
2010 Unrally IX Sierra Adventures Co-Chair
KE6GYC 2M/440
'12 F800-GS Trophy: (dearly departed)
'06 R1200-RT, Piedmont RED! (dearly departed)
'99 R1100-RT (dearly departed)
Minden, Nevada

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#2739 - 08/20/02 11:38 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
BWS Offline
Member

Registered: 11/22/01
Posts: 166
Loc: Va Mnts.
Its been awhile Dick,howya doin?I agree with your assesment.Living in extreme twistys and learning the "old fashioned way"(figuring it out for myself)I only have a cple of thoughts to add.Your idea about leaning a M/C over
is righton.This is one of the 12s strongpoints,how comfortable a rider is at extreme lean angles.Have had many discussions,usually ending up heated,with squidly remarks,or take it to the track responses.But the amt. of control and ease that the K handles corners has to be experienced.I have 36k on my '00,95% of which has been in twistys.Think about it,my K has spent practically its entire existance at some sort of lean angle.Building strong thigh muscles will reward you with a much more pleasant,safer ride.Upper body development,may not be quite as important but will/can get you out of trouble.Cold tyres,gravel,slow speed handling all can make for little oops,upper body strength seems to help.Personally,I "ride the tank",and have the scuffs on paint to prove it.But as you said getting into instead of onto K is correct.I tend to scoot foward wedging privates into tank while using feet to apply a little back pressure on pegs.This frees up torso,to better handle other minor issues.It also locks in your "offside" during corners allowing you to pickup inside foot,reposition,then wieght peg as much or as little as required.Relaxing elbows cannot be STRESSED enough,and further,say when viewing your posture from the side while riding.The angle that your forearms present should be worked on.Basically they should be flat,but setting up for a braking maneuver they should angle slightly down,towards bars,but still bent at elbow.Keep practicing this till it becomes second nature.Try holding on with inner thighs during panick braking to take stress off arms and upper body.Later Brian

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#2740 - 08/20/02 03:20 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Mjames Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 4447
Loc: NYC/CT
In reply to:

The largest, developed, muscle memory is the angle between torso and thighs... We set that PATTERN, not an "exactness" very early in American life by our caregivers "Sitting Us in Chairs". Note that SOUTHEAST ASIAN PEOPLES go about TEACHING their kids to SQUAT, and that brings on an ENTIRELY DIFFERNT THIGH/TORSO relationship.



As a student of the Alexander Technique, Alexander teaches at length on this very issue. It's not just Asian's who "sit" correctly but just look at any young child. Young children naturally bend where the torso meets the thighs – the hip joint. Young children always bend at the JOINTS. Never inbetween. Children naturally adopt the squat, or sit in a "perch" position. You will never see them bending or hunched over at the waist. This happens LATER. Usually when they start school and start sitting in chairs that don’t fit and are badly designed.

On a whole Asians sit much better than we do, as well as the so called "primitive" cultures such as the Australian Aborigines or tribal Africa. It’s not so much that these people are taught to squat as children, as it is they are NOT taught not to. That’s really what Alexander Technique is all about. It’s not so much a "learning" process but an "unlearning" process of bad habits.

This unlearning takes place throught a series of lessons using a mechanism called "inhibition" combined with conscious "direction." The idea is to eventually brings our body back to where we started. And as the body returns to a more natural state, the mind remarkably follows.

If you adopt Master Yoda’s instructions, you will be in a more natural riding position. But any "child" could have told you that.




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#2741 - 08/20/02 04:25 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Mjames]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
James, you are so very correct.

I didn't want to get into that, already needing to redirect attention from the main subject a few times to make some points. AND, I didn't believe I could express it NEARLY as well as you have. In my heart I simply feel the Buddha said, "Do what comes naturally."

When I teach riding, or particularly Shooting to children, especially girls who don't tend to develop strong ego, "ME can FORCE it" thoughts more common to boys, they "Just Do It", and so wonderfully well. They operate their bodies like little ballerina angels, and that is JUST what's needed in Shooting -- And very much anathematical to boys. Boys have had to STRAIN to surpass their current muscle development to excel. In so doing they flex their body (back) between the joints. They "round" their shoulders. They lock their shoulders, AND ELBOWS, so they can apply force with larger muscles in actions like throwing. When a SUPPLE sport like Golf comes along for adults, we spend sometimes HUNDREDS of hours getting them to undo that LOCKED "posture", and the sense of FORCE application, and again operate naturally --- like KIDS.

It might be VERY helpful if you could POST some information about The Alexander Technique -- along with links or references to it. It might save many folks a lot of time "Getting Back to Nature". Would you please?


You point out the heart method of my Instruction Technique. I now apply it to all the venues I teach or coach in:
  • Do it THIS way. (Usually manipulating them into a position)
  • What did you EXPERIENCE?
  • What was the RESULT?
  • How did that FEEL? (Mostly BODY, but other conceptions are appropriate too - especially to Mastery.)
  • OK. Set up CORRECTLY again.
  • Good. Repeat.


What's most important in this is THEIR Experience.

Some people are thought to learn "better" (more quickly?) from Visual media, others Audible. But everyone finally forms THEIR OWN CONCEPTION of what they do to succeed. Starting there makes considerable sense. And, with older folks who have developed a pattern of, or need to, "figure it out" beforehand, it short circuits that process that can lead down so, so many "wrong" roads, confusing them, wasting their time, and bringing frustration. Really quickly they can "see" what it is that works. THEN, they can go about "describing it to themselves." HOW they describe it may not make ANY sense to you or me.

That also brings up the method's ability to overcome lack of, and mis-, understandings about Language and its Meanings. It even allows "silent" teaching, and is very effective with the deaf and blind (And at least SOMETIMES, even I am certain I'm one, the other, or both of those things).

The Mind WILL follow the body. When the Mind, or one's other "faculties" might be a hindrance, it is good to LEAD with the body. The important thing is to Develop Conception, for always, in ACTION, it is the Mind which Leads the Body. Once an IMAGE, and the clearer the better, can be developed, the person now has the chance to turn that into Reality. However THEY think they do that.

And, remember that Image, and the highly touted "Envision", is more than just visual. Our mental images can contain all our perceptions, and many of those are more important than simply what it looks like. How it FEELS is very important to dynamic motion activities -- like Motorcycling.


Becoming familiar with the techniques, and the principles, within the Alexander Technique can provide a basis to make learning Physical Actions much easier for all of us.

MTFBWY

_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2742 - 08/20/02 05:30 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Mjames Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 4447
Loc: NYC/CT
In reply to:

It might be VERY helpful if you could POST some information about The Alexander Technique -- along with links or references to it.




Someone once said that if you can't explain something in twenty-five words or less, then it isn't worth knowing. Well, the Alexander Technique is a big exception to this, as it works on so many different levels. I'll post some links later, but since it is "experience" oriented, you can only get so much from reading about it.


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#2743 - 08/20/02 06:20 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
ghan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/02
Posts: 581
Loc: Vacaville, CA
Good write up Dick, seems I found this site and your exceptionally fine explanaitions on proper riding position after I discovered them for myself through trial and error and letting the bike tell me how it should be ridden. One question though, you said "Maintain a SLIGHT arch to the back, not allowing it ever to "curve"

Particularly what part of the back are you referring to as the back has 3 distinct parts with 2 different curvatures. Specifically cervical - lordotic curve, thoracic - kyphotic curve, lumbar - lordotic curve. The natural slight lordotic curvature of the lumber spine can get straightened out or even become a slight kyphosis when leaning forward if you lean incorrectly and bend at the waist and not bend as you describe at the hips. I guess my question is what do you differentiate by "arch" and "curve" and what part of the spine? I assumed you were referring to the lumbar region.

Again, good write up and keeps the words of wisdom coming.
_________________________
Gary in Vacaville, CA
'14 R1200GSW
'06 WR250F

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#2744 - 08/20/02 07:21 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Mjames Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 4447
Loc: NYC/CT
In reply to:

It might be VERY helpful if you could POST some information about The Alexander Technique -- along with links or references to it.



Just posted in "Ride Well" Forum.

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#2745 - 08/20/02 08:37 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
RXGOLF Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/02
Posts: 206
Loc: Joplin,Mo.,USA
Great points!! I just printed them all out. I am lucky in that I can be taught to do most things quickly. However, this is the insight I needed in order to change a very good ride into great ones. It is much easier to copy a sucessful idea, than to explore all of the right and wrong ways on your own.



Sincerely Thanks!!

Greg


_________________________
Joplin, Mo. U.S.A. 02 Black KRS "Doo Run Run"

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#2746 - 08/20/02 11:38 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: ghan]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
Oh CRAP!! We WOULD have to have a Thoracic Specialist on board!!

So... Back Arch:

Sit in chair;
Use hands on knees as support;
Bend forward until chest touches or comes closest to knees;
Straighten back;
Remove hands as support;
Lift head up as far as possible, and look forward;
Bring shoulders back as far as possible
Raise torso 3/4 to upright.

99% of folks now have a "slightly arched back". There should be a distinct but mild tightness in the lower back, or lumbar region. The "thoracic" area (That's the area you can feel "between your shoulders") is what I conceive to be "neutral" having its normal bend.

This is a "good" posture for the lumbar region, the area where the majority of back suffering is encountered, especially by Riders. The ERECTION of the back is being conducted by a CONTINUOUS host of muscles from "butt" to "brain". This is EASY to feel and accomplish, and learn to maintain.

So... "Curve" is any bend forward that comes from NOT holding that "erecting tension".


This "erecting tension" also particularly provides support for that area between the shoulders. Some of us are somewhat weak or injured here (My T5 vertebra often pops out of place). Part of that problem comes from ROUNDING THE SHOULDERS FORWARD.

With bikes that do/SEEM/look like they have a "long reach to the bars", some of us are prompted to round our shoulders forward to help reach them. It's better to give away SOME elbow bend if really needed, rather than do that rounding which will later cause fatigue and pain. And, as well, in order to do that rounding, some of the "erection tension" must be given away... and things begin to go to Hades in a hand basket


One will find this "erection tension" is better not "practiced in a vacuum". It is SUPPORTED BY LEG MUSCLES... despite any mystery you may have as to why. Don't believe it? OK, try:

Sit with at least half your thighs overhanging the seat of a chair;
Achieve the "slightly arched back posture with the torso leaning forward about 45 degrees";
Now, lift both feet one inch off the floor.

Hmmmm.


This posture has a slightly, or radical, forward lean. The more lean, the more aft the butt must be placed behind the feet to produce BALANCE. Remember the LEGS provide the supporting power... THOUGH foot contact with the footpegs. One is balanced OVER the feet (Screw Rear-Sets. BMW built the K1200RS as a Sport Tourer, not a Sport Bike).

With greater forward leans, we encounter resistance from uh... er... the Middle of the body -- perhaps moreso for those of us who are fond of large quantities of malt beverages. Some find it easier to accomplish greater forward leans if the thighs are angled outward somewhat.

I teach an exercise to help strengthen what we use to support this Riding Posture that incorporates that slightly splayed leg position:

Standing, bend SLIGHTLY at the knees, and place hands on them to support your back;
Spread feet to just beyond shoulder width;
Point feet and thighs outward so a 30 to 45 degree angle is achieved between them;
Straighten the back, and arch it backward slightly --- Hold that throughout;
Keeping the feet FLAT ON THE FLOOR, squat until thighs are parallel to the floor;
Hold that for 10 seconds;
Keeping the posture, raise the butt about 3 inches --- hold for three seconds;
Return to thighs level and hold for three seconds;
Repeat rise and fall 10 times.
End.

As one becomes accustomed to this exercise, one can hold the "raised" position for longer and longer periods. Eventually one can get so they can hold it for several minutes, but this doesn't do as much good as holding it for a few seconds and MOVING back an forth. The PURPOSE is not only to strengthen the muscles, but to IDENTIFY them, so you are certain THAT is what you are using when you mount the bike and ride off. So if you can hold it more than 10 seconds 10 times, increase the reps.

Very best wishes.

_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2747 - 08/21/02 05:04 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
ghan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/02
Posts: 581
Loc: Vacaville, CA
So... "Curve" is any bend forward that comes from NOT holding that "erecting tension".

We call that a kyphotic curve and the thoracic spine does have a small natural kyphotic curvature, but it's a bad thing to happen to the lumbar region. Your exercises for maintaining proper lumbar lordosis and reducing thoracic lordosis are spot on. The comment about movement is equally important because maintaining "erecting tension" WILL cause muscle fatigue and eventually lead to pain despite the proper posture. Any body held in one position will ache after some time, movement is what it's made for.

Also your comments about the rounded shoulders are great. Holding the shoulders in a forward rounded position is what often leads to that "ice pick between the shoulder blades" feeling that nags so many. That's because of the stress on the rhomboid muscles, levator scapuli muscles and the facet joints of the thoracic vertabrae. Again movement would help, never getting in that position for any length of time is the best prevention.

Good write up Dick

_________________________
Gary in Vacaville, CA
'14 R1200GSW
'06 WR250F

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#2748 - 08/24/02 10:47 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
rodneyrx Offline
Just Joined

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 3
Loc: Idaho
Very Interesting....!
I just purchased a slightly used 2002 K12 in Missouri ..... and am working my way back to Arizona. I've put 3,000 miles on it during the last week. I'll have to learn the techniques mentioned; but I owned a 1997 RT that several years ago I rode to the east coast, down to the Carolinas and home. A couple of things that drove me crazy on the RT were the seat (a sore butt), lack of cruise control and the lack of a 6th gear.
I can't believe I have yet to have a sore butt from the RS (came with a Sargeant seat), only I do get sore around the sides of my knees, although the RT was worse (I am allergic to exercise).
So far, everything has been wonderful and better than expected except the windshield which doesn't block 30 degree air on my hands! Can you imagine?
Well, thanks for the posts as my final decision was based on viewing and thinking about the information received from this forum.
Believe me, this K12 is a wonderful machine for me. I loved the RT also.
A car dealer I know once said "There is a seat for every ass." Well, this ass has found his seat.
"Betty" is going to have to go. Sorry girl, but I'm not a GL kind of guy.

_________________________
2004 H-D Road King The difference between adventure & adversity is Attitude!

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#2749 - 08/25/02 01:43 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
mcoyote Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 634
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Like I told Paul Mihalka today at Bob's:

"Yeah, and it really got good last month when I figured out how
to ride the thing!"


Edited by mcoyote (08/25/02 01:43 AM)
_________________________
"Professional coder on closed source. Do not attempt." (AMA, BMWOA/RA, Reduc [#931], NESBA [#347])

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#2750 - 08/26/02 04:08 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Mjames Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 4447
Loc: NYC/CT
In reply to:

Note that SOUTHEAST ASIAN PEOPLES go about TEACHING their kids to SQUAT



Dick, In my elevator today I saw an 18 month old boy go into a perfect full squat with heels flat on ground. Immediately, his mother tugged on his arm and said, "stand up!" I was about to say something but figured she'd never understand.

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#2751 - 08/26/02 04:27 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Mjames]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
That's a beauty, Mark.

Thanks.
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2752 - 05/19/04 05:37 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
gene Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 49
Loc: Spencer, Indiana
Quote:

"Dick Frantz' Riding Position" gets referred to a lot on several forums of the BMWRT.COM Discussion Board. It turns out that when its PRICIPLES are applied to create certain kinds of body part relationships that it applies to almost all motorcycles. I view that as a "Perspective" to share, and my words as direction toward things to look at, and seeing, to learn what might make things better for you all.
<br>
<br>So, I thought I'd write up a "short version" of it, and SAVE it somewhere. In the next few days, I'll build it into a comprehensive Article that can be referred to anytime -- and hopefully we'll get recourses to build us a FAQ particularly for those unfamiliar with the K1200RS, and place it there with the many, many things we've all found out about the K1200RS.
<br>
<br>
<br>First, the K1200RS is NOT a Sport Bike. It is a Sport Tourer, and has characteristics that make it very strong at that task or that kind of riding. That also makes it LOOK LIKE a Sport Bike, and also DO THINGS that are considered strong points of Sport Bikes. From my perspective, the KRS is not better than "good" at being a Sport Bike, except that it rises to "very good" or even to "exceptional" at things like Linear Response; Handling Uneven Road Surfaces; Stability in All Cornering Modes; Stability Leaving Corners; and Braking. It also does All Day Sporty Riding at an elevated level, something that MASTER YODA expects from Sport Bikes (and is absent in the current Race Replicas that are CALLED Sport Bikes).
<br>
<br>The "All Day Comfort Thing", is REQUIRED of a Sport Tourer. When someone finds that absent in the K1200RS, I question how they are operating it. True, individual physiology, our frigging size(S), and any deficiencies (I have two VERY injured knees), can effect how ANY riding configuration is responded to, and then thought about. But, I consider that any fairly healthy person who falls within perhaps the 95th percentile of sizes can be, or BECOME comfortable riding the bike. Why? IT WAS BUILT TO PROVIDE THAT.
<br>
<br>
<br>You sit ON TOP OF a Sport Bike. You sit WITHIN a K1200RS.
<br>
<br>Sport Bikes REQUIRE getting weight OFF YOUR BUTT so the rider can slide his/her butt inside corners to effect a different CG. CONSEQUENTLY, Sport Bikes INDUCE "weight on the handle bars".
<br>
<br>Someone sitting on a K1200RS will note some ergonomic differences, and FALL TOWARD, positioning their body AS IF they were riding a Sport Bike. DUMB!!!! Well, not so much dumb as UNINFORMED. They've PREJUDICED, rather than EXAMINED.
<br>
<br>They probably also CARRY FORWARD certain muscle memories DEVELOPED, NOT BORN WITH, from riding other conveyances, SOME of which can have been motorcycles. ARM CHAIRS come to mind [image]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/image] In short, people have LEARNED... TO SIT UPRIGHT. It is NOT in fact a FUNCTION for which the human body was designed ---- AND continued practice CAUSES DAMAGE.
<br>
<br>AUTOMOBILES PROMULGATE THE SEATED POSTION. Only lately have they applied several things like Lumbar Support to keep that position from KILLING the user. Oh... forgive my hyperbole, but SITTING UP just is NOT good for you.
<br>
<br>MOST motorcycles CONTINUE THE PROMUGATION. To one degree or another, they emulate "Sit Upright" (So much so that the term UJM, Universal Japanese Motorcycle, was partially defined by a riding position called "Sit Up and BEG", like a puppy.). This position became A MENTAL NORM. We THINK that's "how a motorcycle is ridden" -- HUGE numbers of us. Well, the important thing to remember is YOU LEARNED to do it that way (Remember how you BECAME ABLE to ride for longer and longer periods?): You can LEARN "something else".
<br>
<br>
<br>The largest, developed, muscle memory is the angle between torso and thighs. This is controlled by the LARGEST muscles involved in riding. We set that PATTERN, not an "exactness" very early in American life by our caregivers "Sitting Us in Chairs". Note that SOUTHEAST ASIAN PEOPLES go about TEACHING their kids to SQUAT, and that brings on an ENTIRELY DIFFERNT THIGH/TORSO relationship. In fact, that posture is MUCH MORE COMMON ACROSS ALL OF ASIA. Anybody care to guess where JAPAN is located? People sitting on tatami mats, or with feet and legs folded beneath their butt -- and THUS, torsos leaned forward? Hmmmmm.
<br>
<br>Anyway, some things can be difficult to overcome for some folks --- WHEN they have become HABITS rather than cognizant, controlled RESPONSES. A great example is about leaning motorcycles in corners. The human develops a sense of danger when leaning any farther than they can do so when STANDING UP. HUGE danger signals are sent when lean angle extends much beyond the angle the neck can be bent AND STILL KEEP THE EYES LEVEL (20 to 30 degrees). It's OUR Response to BODY SIGNALS I'm referring to that can make up our "sense" of our comfort levels. Those things can CHANGE --- WHEN WE CONTROLTHEM, rather than the other way round.
<br>
<br>The K1200RS calls for, was DESIGNED TO PROMOTE a CANTED FORWARD RIDING POSITION. Yes, very much, this was done on purpose by BMW. They knew it was REQUIRED to get the K1200RS performing to the desired levels, AND, very much, KEEP the rider COMFORTABLE for LONG PERIODS OF TIME, in the regimes where the bike was intended to be most often used (i.e. NOT riding on city streets). It all starts with a LOW SEATING POSITION -- NOT high, like a Sport Bike.
<br>
<br>BMW then set out to DISCOVER, "what else" needed to be done to: 1) ADD comfort to this position (Provide a supporting airflow); 2) SUPPORT the position (Move the pegs downward, but still allow GOOD clearance when cornering to SPORT TOURING levels); 3) Reduce effort to maintain the position (Move them FORWARD to change the "Support Vector").
<br>
<br>THIS REMOVES THE NEED TO PLACE ANY WEIGHT ON THE HANDLE BARS. Do so if you wish, but you'll pay the price in Comfort. AND, you'll find that you MAKE THE BIKE FEEL DULL AND UNRESPONSIVE, when compared to properly, YES, PROPERLY, distributing your weight about the bike. "Properly" is appropriate here in light of GAINING the Performance Qualities BMW BUILT INTO the bike. And, this should give some insight into WHY Motorcycle Magazines don't seem to find the riding qualities we owners do when they test the K1200RS: THEY ARE RIDING IT WRONG -- Differently than it was designed to BE RIDDEN.
<br>
<br>
<br>The keynotes to "the" Riding Position are:
  • Bend at the HIPS, not waist
  • Maintain a SLIGHT arch to the back, not allowing it ever to "curve"
  • Move the butt AFT so the weight is OVER YOUR FEET.
  • Apply pressure to the feet, using the THIGH muscles, so you are sitting "lightly"
  • ELBOWS BENT, now DROP the hands to the bars.

<br>
<br>One needs to move fore and aft on the seat to make ALL those things happen. Except for the Hip Bend, they are NOT Absolutes, but rather RANGES. Move about until you can see ALL of them are happening to some extent -- and NO weight is being placed on the handlebars.
<br>
<br>Do this when the bike is STATIONARY. Sit on the stopped bike. TAKE TIME TO do this. PRACTICE. LEARN.
<br>
<br>In fact, one must TEACH their own body. This is called TRAINING. You'll notice all GOOD training is done by ABSTRACT EXERCISES, not "just running off to the playing field and doing what you HEARD."
<br>
<br>LEARN to press down with the feet. Then, when riding, CHECK that's what you are actually doing. You SHOULD be able to lift your butt off the seat at a milisecond's notice: As when knowingly approaching a severe bump in the road.
<br>
<br>LEARN to bend at the hips. Do it BOTH ways, and show YOURSELF that you CAN operate the body differently. BE WILLING to touch that frigging gas tank. SOME people are incredibly fearful of touching a gas tank -- It's almost laughable. WHO SAID you shouldn't touch the gas tank? (Afraid of scratches? Poo, poo. Get some clear tank protector.) Better to think "The gas tank is my FRIEND." It WILL be some day when you are six hundred miles into your ride and still two hundred miles from your destination. OR, while you are LEARNING to ride this bike and may be only an hour or so into your ride. Your body is NOT YET... TRAINED to operate that way.
<br>
<br>FLOP YOUR ELBOWS. PROVE you have your weight supported, mostly by your feet, and by your butt. Do it while riding too. Even after 25,000 miles on an RS I STILL end up leaning onto the bars somewhat and need to readjust my position.
<br>
<br>
<br>Many people will need to CHANGE the riding position they use for riding on the K1200RS. Understand one OPERATES their body to do virtually anything (except things like sleep, and even there...). Because "Sit Up" is so common in our lives, it can come to seem we are not OPERATING the body, even to "just sit". But, sit on a wooden stool for six hours and send me your impressions of what you encounter. ALL OF IT is something called WORK.
<br>
<br>On bikes LIKE the K1200RS (Aprilia Falco and ZZ-R1200 come to mind) a MODERATE riding position is called for, but one that is still a CHANGE for some folks. What one must do, is FIRST Change One's Mind. Then, go about changing one's USE of one's body. Mind controls Body (In HEALTY people).
<br>
<br>DO IT RIGHT. Take the time to sit on the stationary bike every day when you first get it (or go do a Test Ride). Flex, tighten, relax, and move about across a small but definite range of positions on the bike. Then, "get it right" and without moving, FLEX all your body muscles, in order, from the feet toward the hands and head. FEEL what that feels like when you relax each muscle, and are STILL holding the proper Riding Position. Close your eyes and FEEL IT. Not ALL the muscles are FULLY relaxed. You are USING some of them. How? How much? To do WHAT?
<br>
<br>Then, when you've done that for all the body's muscles (even the ones you don't THINK you are using), Flex them ALL, and relax and FEEL IT OVER ALL. Even go so far as to "stand back 10 feet and look at yourself" if you can. Feel and See.
<br>
<br>Now, in your ride, attempt to maintain THAT position (with appropriate changes to handle riding circumstances) for as long in your ride as you can. When you tire, STOP. Get off the bike and bend, stretch, and flex all your muscles. WALK until your walking feels normal. Then get back on the bike IN THE PROPER POSTION THAT YOU CHECKED BEFORE RIDING OFF, and repeat. You'll find you ride longer and longer, and comfort GROWS AND GROWS. Eventually, IT WILL SEEM NORMAL.
<br>
<br>One note is that if you notice "being tense", either some "bulk of muscles are being tight", or that you have "a pain" or "a tight cord" or some other sharp discomfort, do stop. You are COMPENSATING for something that has ALREADY become tired. You should have stopped sooner, and you need to develop THAT muscle that you tired out. Right then, it will be had to find that muscle, so NEXT time you start riding, do a better job before riding off of FINDING what muscles you really need to use to hold that positions (like you hold ANY position). Then ride in perhaps a less intense environment so you can PAY ATTENTION to shifts in your muscles use, and PARTICULARLY, Elbow Flopping, Butt Lifting, and Neck Twisting. I promise, if you are doing this CORRECTLY, pains should disappear, and NOT be present. But note, that even MASTER YODA gets tired, his MUSCLES get tired during a 14 hour riding day... and sometimes a SIX hour riding day.
<br>
<br>USE YOUR THIGH MUSCLES. They are the most powerful in your body. And, they tire less and less quickly. Place your body weight so THEY can be doing the work. Even with bad knees and a bad back, I can ride this lovely performing machine from sunset to long past sunrise. And, many guys can ride longer than I do. Dammit.
<br>
<br>
<br>Blessings to you all.
<br>
<br>rdf
<br>
<br>




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#2753 - 05/19/04 06:27 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Dennis Andress Offline
Boot Slayer
Member

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 4722
Loc: Port Orchard, Washington
Thanks. I've been concentrating on changing my riding style to follow this for a couple weeks now. What a big difference and boy do I have a lot to unlearn.

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#2754 - 05/20/04 04:29 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Dennis Andress]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
Dennis, I'm glad you found something that's being helpful.

I cannot emphasize enough how valuable doing the floor exercises, and the sitting on the bike exercises are. They very much shorten the learning process.

The Emphasis in the Exercises is to STRESS the proper muscles so that you FEEL them -- It's not so much about Strength as it is about Communication, building Familiarity. When Riding, there is NO stress, NO strain; Very little "activity", use of the muscles, is required to hold the body in The Position. But reaching that point requires learning, more and more, reaching upward toward KNOWING it's "those" muscles that get used. Then, actually USING them brings about The Transition, which is really a Mental "swap over", a building of "Oh yeah, this is how it's done."

The shorter rides are a huge help too, taken where you explicitly MAKE the chance to stop, breathe and stretch and then continue the ride when you reach a point at which you can no longer hold The Position. A good Goal is to make ONE ride where The Position is held for it's entirety. Getting that done, and then done more and more times -- Entire Rides That Are a Success -- will RAPIDLY build what's needed to win at making The Transition. When determination is THAT high, the Rider will be closely monitoring Position, and then ACTIVELY working the muscles that hold it. To GET those First Successful Rides done, it is entirely acceptable to make the ride up from short stretches of Success. SUCCESS is what it's all about, eh?

Best wishes.
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2755 - 07/19/05 08:37 PM For Paul M [Re: rdfrantz]
edge51 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 241
Loc: St. Paul, Minnesota
Here it be.
_________________________
Ted 97 HD FLHR (sold) 00 HD FlHR (sold) 04 R1150RT (sold) 07 FJR 1300

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#2756 - 07/19/05 08:59 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
swmckinley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 737
Loc: Austin,TX
Dick,
I have also found that I can TRAIN those muscles while sitting at my office desk during the day. I push my office chair away from the desk and sit on the edge of the chair. I then balance myself on the balls of my feet and lean forward slightly bend my elbows and place my hands on the edge of the desk, never allowing them to bear weight. This helps my muscle memory and while it is not a replacement for sitting on the bike it is at least helpful for me.
_________________________
Steve McKinley
Austin, Texas
2016 R1200RTW
Charter Member-Pie Town Crew
So Many Bikes-So Little Time

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#2757 - 07/19/05 11:20 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: swmckinley]
ShovelStrokeEd Offline
MC Buffer
Member

Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 11539
Loc: SE Florida
The real beauty of the Master Yoda position is that it can be practiced quite effectivly at a bar stool. In fact, those who yelp about it would benefit from that very thing.
_________________________
Just as every skill is improved by practice, so also is every bad habit made worse by repetition.

Swim upstream in life, only dead fish go with the flow.

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#2758 - 07/20/05 09:14 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: ShovelStrokeEd]
hANNAbONE Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 4977
Loc: Versailles, Indiana
Quote:

The real beauty of the Master Yoda position is that it can be practiced quite effectively at a bar stool.




ssED...i pRACTICE every chance I get..
_________________________
h A N N A b O N E
.F.O.G.Member & Friend of Signman & Paul Mihalka

2012 Black Yamaha XT1200Z Super Tenere'
Versailles, Windy-Anna

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#2759 - 07/21/05 05:16 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: hANNAbONE]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
hANNAbONE, Benjamin Franklin said, "Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy."

Dick Fantz said, "MYRP is how you get to the good hotels to learn about God's Love."

Announcement:

"Services" will be held next...
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2760 - 07/21/05 09:58 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
hANNAbONE Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 4977
Loc: Versailles, Indiana

_________________________
h A N N A b O N E
.F.O.G.Member & Friend of Signman & Paul Mihalka

2012 Black Yamaha XT1200Z Super Tenere'
Versailles, Windy-Anna

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#2761 - 02/12/06 06:19 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: SageRider]
rwehavnfunyet Offline
Just Joined

Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Fremont CA
Thanks for the great instruction. I'm getting back on a bike after 40 years and this will help reduce the unlearning.

If I may branch from your topic, you focus on the K bike's ergonomics and have ridden or are riding an FJR1300. I'm starting to look for an appropriate sport touring bike and wonder how you would compare the FJR, the K, and the RT in the light of the ergonomics you are describing...

I'm re-training on a Kawi ex500D9 and can sense some of what you are describing. My only problems have been from wind buffet at freeway speeds giving me neck aches. I have some martial arts induced calcium in the neck so I'm a little sensitive.

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#2762 - 02/12/06 07:45 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rwehavnfunyet]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
Quote:

If I may branch from your topic, you focus on the K bike's ergonomics and have ridden or are riding an FJR1300. I'm starting to look for an appropriate sport touring bike and wonder how you would compare the FJR, the K, and the RT in the light of the ergonomics you are describing...


Sorry, FunYet, but I don't know your first name.

I was shocked to see my post show up, but happy too as I've wanted to update it. Wonder what that flashing icon next to it on the list of posts means?

Anyway, the history is that I had written a post, and also a magazine article about MYRP. Then, some folks expressed some distress at becoming comfortable, or having pains on the K1200RS. So I dusted off SOME of the items/facts/concepts and wrote it up in a way that would mostly apply to a KRS rider. Unfortunately, the K1200RS focus of the post causes riders of other models to "tune it out". That makes me sad because ORIGIANLLY, MYRP was put together to handle bikes with ergonomics like an R1100RT.

REALLY, MYRP is about riding ANY bike.

Bend torso at hip joint, no waist
Butt behind feet
Support with foot pressure from the BACK of thighs
Back with slight arch
Shoulders back
Elbows bent
(Forearms as closely level to ground as possible)
No weight on bars.

All that changes from bike to bike about THAT is torso angle.

Now, it's true bikes will have our feet in a range from fore to aft of optimal to lift our butts up at will. Seats will restrict how far for or aft we can move our butts to get the body CG over the feet. The distance from shoulders to bars will determine the elbow bend. But none of that change the PRINCIPLES of MYRP.

Cruisers don't seem to allow MYRP, right? WRONG!!! It's true one is unlikely to do it ALL. But benefits will be realized from WHAT YOU CAN DO.

Sport Bikes? They got foot peg locations that don't help. Bars can be hugely low and forward. BUT, we can keep our back arched, and bent at the hip joints. We CAN keep our elbows bent, and forearms level. Perhaps we'll LEAN ON THE TANK ALL THE TIME!!!

Do what you have to do to CONSCIOUSLY get as many of the PRINCIPLES into action. REGARDLESS OF BIKE MODEL. Uh... Please. Sorry, about getting so emphatic there.


FJR? The Torso Angle it calls for is half way between my K1200RS/GT and my RxxxxRT. In fact, there's a RANGE of Torso Angles available that spans from almost one to almost the other. That's a factor that makes the bike so pleasing to me. More upright and I'm happy across the same or longer distances than when on my RT. Facing curvy sections, I'm "Down, Forward, and In(side)" almost like on the RS - but without the neck strain to hold up my head, and my elbows are more greatly (comfortably) bent.

The only shortcoming to riding position on the FJR, to me, is the foot pegs would be more comfortable 3 inches forward, and that wouldn't impede anything about sporty use. As it is, it's more difficult than it should be to lift one's butt up (and thus provide support for torso erection). Also all else about the body in "normal" position, the toes are pointed way down. It can be very fatiguing to KEEP the feet above the brake and shift controls as one needs to do for long duration in traffic, an also SHOULD be doing in the twisties.

I do use bar-backs on my FJR. That allows a greater elbow bend that I like. Stock it was OK, but after their installation "something" relaxed and I felt much more tension free. It affected "all" my body. It was an experiment that bore great fruit - for me personally.

Best wishes to you all.
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2763 - 02/12/06 03:18 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Whip Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 10434
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Quote:


The only shortcoming to riding position on the FJR, to me, is the foot pegs would be more comfortable 3 inches forward, and that wouldn't impede anything about sporty use. As it is, it's more difficult than it should be to lift one's butt up (and thus provide support for torso erection). Also all else about the body in "normal" position, the toes are pointed way down. It can be very fatiguing to KEEP the feet above the brake and shift controls as one needs to do for long duration in traffic, an also SHOULD be doing in the twisties.





You think it was easier to get rid of the shifter than move the pegs...and then link the brakes so you don't use the rear brake as much....LOL....See 2006 FJR autoshift and linked

Whip


Edited by Tool (02/14/06 05:11 AM)
_________________________
I am their leader, which way did they go?

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#2764 - 02/12/06 03:31 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: ShovelStrokeEd]
lexxol Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 371
Loc: Venice, FL
Ed,
You've done it again. All through the land men will have a new answer to to the age old question, where have you been dear? I was with the guys, practicing the Master Yoda Position. Bless you Ed.
_________________________
The lenght of a minute depends on which side of the bathroom door you are.

..........
Lexxol
Venice Fl.

2004 1150 RT
1952 Panhead

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#2765 - 02/12/06 11:04 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: lexxol]
cat0020 Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 32
Here are pictures of my highway riding position between 85-125 mph..





I was able to stay comfortable holding that position for someone riding next to me and take pictures.. no signifcant weight on my arms, neck, nor back. My feet arn't even close to the rider's pegs, so that my knees are relaxed. With a rubber band on the throttle, I don't even need to keep my hands on the grips sometimes.
Just some little tricks I picked up on how to ride fast and still be comforatble from riding trips starting in Philadelphia, PA to Key West, FL in 22 hours, including gas/rest stops. I probably should have enter some Iron Butt contest, but it would be a waste of money IMO. I just ride to where I want/need to be, not to log miles on my bike for some trophy or recognition.

I'm a musician, I value my hearing more than most, I havn't gone to custom earplugs just yet, but with good wind protection/aerodynamics, the wind noise is also reduced significantly in your helmet.

As a cyclist since my teenage years, spending 8 hours on a bicycle saddle in one day isn't all that difficult to me. On a bicycle, you really need to know your body's capability and comfort level to be able to perform fast riding hour after hour. Some of that knowledge help me greatly in finding my comfort level on motorcycles.
_________________________
[color:"red"]Master your environment, and you will survive just fine. [/color]
[color:"blue"]Chances favor the prepared mind.
[/color]

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#2766 - 02/13/06 02:39 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: cat0020]
ShovelStrokeEd Offline
MC Buffer
Member

Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 11539
Loc: SE Florida
While that position may be comfortable, it sucks in terms of bike control. Upper body is nice but with your feet off the pegs you will lose a lot of the ability to swerve the bike quickly and may, in fact, lose control if you attempt to do so. I own a VFR, R1100S and a Blackbird, all with similar ridng positions and have no problems with knees and keeping my feet on the pegs, even riding 700 - 900 mile days day after day. It's all a matter of conditioning.
_________________________
Just as every skill is improved by practice, so also is every bad habit made worse by repetition.

Swim upstream in life, only dead fish go with the flow.

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#2767 - 02/13/06 02:59 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: ShovelStrokeEd]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
Ed, like you, I ride a VFR, and also have the "more difficult" K1200RS. With the proper position, trained up through occasional re-examination of the position, occasional identification and strenth drills, and then ensuring that I ride only in the correct postion, I stay in that poised, and effective position for 10 and 12 hour days on either one. While that's vital for Sport Touring days, it's certainly important and highly doable for those "transition" days of pure Tour on the Interstate. While each is free to do as they wish, I'd rather not "train" myself to do it less optimally just because it seems "easier" to fall away from it. That just removes one more ride that would not only strenthen my body to do the best thing well, but also strengthen my determination to do so. With the result of encreased self-esteem. Don't you think, Ed?

Best wishes.
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2768 - 02/13/06 11:19 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
ShovelStrokeEd Offline
MC Buffer
Member

Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 11539
Loc: SE Florida
Agreed. I strive to maintain the good position all through my ride. I will admit to being heavier on the seat during the 'relaxed' portion of the ride and even (gasp) moving my feet so that my heels are on the pegs as a useful alternative and to give my knees a new angle to play with. The only bike that seems to give my knees much trouble is my R1100S which has the pegs too high and too far forward for comfort for me. A minute or so of stretching, on board, every hour pretty much keeps the fatigue in check. My Blackbird has near ideal, for me, seat to bar to peg relationship with the stock bars, stock seat and my adjustable rearsets set low and as far back as possible. That hump in the tank has some utility when matched with the one above my belt in that I can gain a brief respite for my core muscles any time I wish.

If by self esteem you mean pride in a job well done, knowing I am able to ride long distances day after day, arriving at my destination(s) nearly as fresh as when I departed. Yes, I feel good about it. Many folks a generation younger than I haven't learned to do it yet. Many never will, as it does take time and effort to unlearn years of conditioning. What amazes me is how anyone can manage even a 500 mile day on a "sit up and beg" bike, not to mention the rolling gynecological exam type bikes.
_________________________
Just as every skill is improved by practice, so also is every bad habit made worse by repetition.

Swim upstream in life, only dead fish go with the flow.

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#2769 - 02/14/06 05:25 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Tool Offline
Member
Member

Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 5134
Loc: Bonita/San Diego, CA, USA
Ahhh... it certainly IS refreshing to see Dick's post come up again. I truly hope that MOST members here have the substance either committed to memory, or copied to a word doc, or at least bookmark this thread!

Especially after Dick got the chance to "update" the focus in light of the original direction being to address using MYRP on a K-bike.



Dick to answer your question:
Quote:

"Wonder what that flashing icon next to it on the list of posts means?"






I believe the software annoints "hot topic" threads with icons to bring attention to the fact it has an inordinate number of responses, but also - as in this case - "viewings"... which at present is at 11100K and counting!


If you look at the lower right on the page, there is a legend to explain. The "Flaming" icon designates "Topic with over 1000 replies or 10000 views."


Dick, you should feel proud, and justifiably so; presuming that SOME of the people who have read the post have put your suggestions to work - you have helped a LOT of riders. As for me, I remember the weekend I met you, at Gleno's Tech Daze in August of 2001... you held class outside the Garage-Majal, and introduced us to MYRP, as it has come to be called. I started riding that way later that very evening, on the trip back to San Diego!
_________________________
Denny
Our Photos

"When a bird flies through an empty sky, it becomes less clear as it gets farther away, and we come to think of it as having disappeared."

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#2770 - 02/14/06 05:36 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Tool]
russell_bynum Offline
bounce
Member

Registered: 06/14/01
Posts: 27247
Loc: Wildomar, CA, USA
As for me, I remember the weekend I met you, at Gleno's Tech Daze in August of 2001... you held class outside the Garage-Majal, and introduced us to MYRP, as it has come to be called. I started riding that way later that very evening, on the trip back to San Diego!

Same here. Before that, I was just sure my RT needed barbacks, an aftermarket saddle, and an aftermarket windscreen. My longest ride was 250 miles and I was in agony after that...sore shoulders, sore butt, etc. After a couple of weeks of doing the MYRP on my commute, I did a SaddleSore and at the end of the day, the only thing that was bugging me was my right wrist...since I didn't have a throttle lock.

The cool thing is the fundamentals of MYRP work on pretty much any bike. It works great on my RT, Lisa's RS, and the CBR.
_________________________
Russell
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

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#2771 - 02/14/06 11:25 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Tool]
Shaun Offline
Member

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 122
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
It's been a while but I did read the description/explanation, and it seemed to make sense to me in words at the time, but I just can't visualize it (MYRP). Could anyone provide a side view (picture) of a rider with the corresponding posture, or point me to an existing photo. Thanks in advance for the thousand words.

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#2772 - 02/16/06 02:57 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Shaun]
David Offline
Proprietor Emeritus
Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 25817
Loc: Nipper's Corner, TN
From here forward let's keep this thread on subject. It's an excellent piece of explanation by Dick, and it deserves to remain that way.
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Author, Speaker, Advisor, Troublemaker

David C. Baker

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#2773 - 02/16/06 04:25 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: David]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
David and all my Riding Enthusiast friends,

There were many more posts that have been deleted from this thread which were CONTRIBUTIONS I feel were very helpful to gaining a greater sense of this Foundation item to Riding Well - Riding Position.

They've been shuttled off to a thread that became a dissenting diatribe. I am so very, very, very saddened that these fine ideas, by these great and caring people are now missing to a visitor new to this topic. THEY ARE HUGELY VALUABLE.

I WANT THOSE CARING PEOPLE'S IDEAS BACK !!

An unhealty MANNER of dissent should not be allowed to darken our personal view of life in general, and this subject of Riding Position in particular, and WASTE good help. Please, don't let Darkness win.

The dissenter had a view-point. All our views are valid and important. I feel David/Moderators were wise in recognizing that, and keeping that stream of ideas present - in its own thread.

I also feel they were wise to attempt to prevent that Digression from detracting from the grand stream of ideas presented about MYRP, and limiting this thread to posts about the thread's core idea.

But now, ideas are missing.


Please, restore the PERTINENT posts to this thread if you can.

OR, inform me and I will create a new thread, posting ALL the contributions in its head thread. I don't want to do this because it will take so much time. AND, the recogntion of the contributing partys would be reduced, as well as some - unintentional - likelihood I might diminish some idea or nuance of their lovinginly tendered thoughts.

I am devastated by this. I only wanted to help, not have a War. I only want my friends to have their good ideas prevail as their own help, not have them demeaned and discarded.

This is far more than my heart can stand.

Can't we get this back on track? It's REAL and COMPLETE track?
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2774 - 02/16/06 11:28 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
David Offline
Proprietor Emeritus
Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 25817
Loc: Nipper's Corner, TN
Quote:

Please, restore the PERTINENT posts to this thread if you can.




We don't have any way of doing this in the software, which I regret. But I think of it as collateral damage.

Feel free to recreate this with the contributions from others and we'll do a better job of protecting the thread in the future. We don't normally feel the need to "protect" threads, but we considered this one a bit more timeless than others, and the thought of forcing thousands of people to read through the nonsense over the next few years outweighed the collateral damage of cutting out certain parts.

Thank you for your patience.
_________________________
Author, Speaker, Advisor, Troublemaker

David C. Baker

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#2775 - 02/16/06 01:10 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: David]
Shaun Offline
Member

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 122
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
David, I assume that your response is simply a general tag on my message and not directed at my sincere request for a MYRP photograph. I second Mr. Franz’s opinion and could add more … but that would definitely be off topic.

My interest is twofold. First, I am curious about the relationship between the hips and back and second, I want an easily recognizable example to show others. I’m baffled that Laney’s picture was removed as it seemed a valuable asset to the thread (IMHO) and annoyed that it disappeared before I had a chance to copy it.

Therefore, my request remains …

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#2776 - 02/16/06 01:15 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Shaun]
David Offline
Proprietor Emeritus
Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 25817
Loc: Nipper's Corner, TN
Quote:

David, I assume that your response is simply a general tag on my message and not directed at my sincere request for a MYRP photograph.




Yes, you are correct. Sorry about that. Your sort of question is exactly what this thread ought to address.

Carry on!
_________________________
Author, Speaker, Advisor, Troublemaker

David C. Baker

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#2777 - 02/16/06 01:17 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Shaun]
ShovelStrokeEd Offline
MC Buffer
Member

Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 11539
Loc: SE Florida
Go to any zoo, or any bar, for that matter, and observe the occupants of the primate house. Their resting position is just what Dick describes. We are, after all primates. It's natural!
_________________________
Just as every skill is improved by practice, so also is every bad habit made worse by repetition.

Swim upstream in life, only dead fish go with the flow.

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#2778 - 02/16/06 01:26 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: David]
Dennis Andress Offline
Boot Slayer
Member

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 4722
Loc: Port Orchard, Washington
David, you've got to do what you've got do. Thanks.

Dick, It'll get better. We love ya man!

Shaun, these pictures were taken at the braking class Dick held last spring. He also taught the MYRP during that class so these shots are probably fair examples.

Laney


Rich_O at top right. Russell at the bottom. And, I forget whose at top left.


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#2779 - 02/16/06 02:02 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: David]
Laney Offline
Streamwalker
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 2163
Loc: Port Orchard, WA
I’m baffled that Laney’s picture was removed as it seemed a valuable asset to the thread (IMHO) and annoyed that it disappeared before I had a chance to copy it.


Don't be annoyed...

Not only can you copy it (and ignore the oddly placed left foot!), but for a small donation to the DB, I'll send you an autographed copy, complete with Photoshopping that left foot into a better position





And the upper left person on the silver RT in Dennis' group of pictures is Bob (TWEETY BIRD) from Fallbrook, CA.

PS to David -- Thanks for putting this thread back on track
_________________________
Laney

Happily clipping the wings on Screaming Eagles all over the West

'15 F800GT "Graphite Gremlin"
'09 K13S "Clipper" - Sold and greatly missed

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#2780 - 02/16/06 02:16 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Laney]
ShovelStrokeEd Offline
MC Buffer
Member

Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 11539
Loc: SE Florida
Notice a very important aspect of this.

By bending at the hips and allowing the back to maintain its natural curve the head is much more erect than it would be if you bet the same amount at the waist to keep your elbows at the level of your hands.

It is all important to reducing fatigue in the neck and shoulder muscles.
_________________________
Just as every skill is improved by practice, so also is every bad habit made worse by repetition.

Swim upstream in life, only dead fish go with the flow.

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#2781 - 02/16/06 02:39 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: ShovelStrokeEd]
Shaun Offline
Member

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 122
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Hmmm, I get the idea … here’s hoping Monkey Butt isn’t an after effect. I just get lost trying to visualize hip gyrations, back arches, pelvic thrusts and needed a picture to put it into perspective. I wonder if gorilla’s ever get sore backs?

Thanks for the photo’s Dennis. And I found Laney’s picture under the dubious thread;
Ride Well - How to Ride Fast While Inclined and Then Roll Safely Off a Motorcycle


Geez (gee whiz), you people are too fast! Thanks Laney, best representation of the bunch. If I take the RS off my dart board will that do?


Edited by Shaun (02/16/06 02:55 PM)

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#2782 - 02/16/06 02:51 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Whip Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 10434
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Dick

I understand the postion of the body in the pic and it makes good since.....at 6'2" the position tends to strain the back of my neck and upper back.... I have trouble keeping my head up....as the miles go by I end up not looking far enough down the road and get fixed on a spot 50 yards in front of the bike.....so I move forward by moving my butt close to the tank and straightening out my arms to get relief to my neck and back......I don't have this problem if I don't wear a helmet so the extra wieght is the problem....neck exercises and strengthening have not helped.....lowering the seat hieght has helped more than anything else...bar risers may have made it worse..

I don't remember feeling the same way on the FJR....just the RT......

FYI... I ride about 10 hours a day when on the road.

Whip
_________________________
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#2783 - 02/16/06 03:07 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Whip]
Dennis Andress Offline
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Member

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 4722
Loc: Port Orchard, Washington
Whip,

Taking these three statements out of context makes me think that your problem may well be how the slipstream is hitting your helmet. Have you tried a taller windscreen or perhaps something like a Laminar Lip?
  • at 6'2" the position tends to strain the back of my neck and upper back
  • I don't have this problem if I don't wear a helmet so the extra wieght is the problem
  • lowering the seat hieght has helped more than anything else...bar risers may have made it worse..


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#2784 - 02/16/06 03:07 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: David]
tallman Offline
Picture Perfect Humorist
Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 19614
Loc: Tallahassee, Florida
Didn't Mitch post a diagram showing the hips and spine with the good/poor relationship in the riding position?
May have been in a thread about seat/pressure.
Did search but didn't find it.
_________________________
If my mind wanders, should I follow it?
Tim
Conch Town Krewe
2003 K 1200 GT
1996 R 100 RSL
1980 R 100 RT
1972 R 75
1968 R 50
All now gone...


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#2785 - 02/16/06 03:18 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Dennis Andress]
Whip Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 10434
Loc: San Antonio, TX
I have tried different screens....the more air hitting me in the head helps me to hold the helmet up and relieve some of the strain..... a bigger screen will only make it worse I think.

Whip
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#2786 - 02/16/06 03:20 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Whip]
Dennis Andress Offline
Boot Slayer
Member

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 4722
Loc: Port Orchard, Washington
Being 6'4" I find tall screens uncomfortable. I keep the RS's screen all the way down unless it's cold. Are you comfortable on a naked bike?

The Laminar Lip I had on the K100RS did wonders at taking pressure off my shoulders and chest.


Edited by Dennis Andress (02/16/06 03:22 PM)

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#2787 - 02/16/06 03:28 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Dennis Andress]
Whip Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 10434
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Quote:

Being 6'4" I find tall screens uncomfortable. I keep the RS's screen all the way down unless it's cold. Are you comfortable on a naked bike?

The Laminar Lip I had on the K100RS did wonders at taking pressure off my shoulders and chest.





Yes, I've been riding my ZXR1100 a lot lately, but if weather is bad I needed the RT and it's protection..also even with Al's ears the helmet buffering and noise will make it difficult to ride all day and my wife won't get on the ZRX.......

FYI I put Cee Bailey's Sum Vee on the RT and I love it...just move it up or down depending on the weather...


Whip
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#2788 - 02/16/06 03:32 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Whip]
SageRider Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 8287
Loc: Minden, Nevada
Quote:

I have tried different screens....the more air hitting me in the head helps me to hold the helmet up and relieve some of the strain..... a bigger screen will only make it worse I think.

Whip




Whip,
It has been my experience that neck and upper back / difficulty in keeping head up problems are usually caused by backpressure on the helmet. Your position may be otherwise perfect, but fighting a "hand" pushing your head forward for hours can be extremely tiring and will cause the symptoms you describe.
I normally do long distance with my stock windscreen in the lowest position. For me, this position insures a smooth airflow around my entire helmet. If I raise the windshield more than about an inch of the rests, then I experience turbulance on the helmet, which will cause fatigue over a long ride. With the windshield raised any higher, I can feel the pressure on the back of my helmet.
Windshields and helmet design all make a difference.
I have used Aeroflow & BMW tall shields and always come back to the stock shield. It works best for me.
_________________________
Michael
2010 Unrally IX Sierra Adventures Co-Chair
KE6GYC 2M/440
'12 F800-GS Trophy: (dearly departed)
'06 R1200-RT, Piedmont RED! (dearly departed)
'99 R1100-RT (dearly departed)
Minden, Nevada

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#2789 - 02/16/06 03:40 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: David]
BrianT Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 2618
Loc: Long Beach, CA
We seem pretty much all agree that the information in this thread is very important and needs to be accessible to all. Without it I never would've adapted to my GT for the long distance rides from my RT not to mention the control I gained cornering while using it.

As Dick said there was a lot of good information lost in the purge, but I can totally see why the dev's would want to try to keep the clutter down. I would like to suggest copying the original post by Dick and whatever updates he has for it into a single clean post and making it a sticky and locking it in say the Ride Well Forum so that anyone that looks at Ride Well would easily find it in it's intended form by it's creator without the clutter. Then if others wanted to continue discussing or debating it here they could without diluting the important information from Dick.

There's probably several threads around here from the years that we would all agree are timeless and useful for everyone that could be placed in a stickied/locked form at the top of some of the forums which would make finding or pointing to them easier. It might even cut down on some of the repeat questions we see that seem to come back every other month. I understand we don't want to load up the forums with a ton of stickies, but maybe just a select few such as this thread, which we all agree is timeless and very important. This way we won't have to worry about the clutter or discussion that might distract from the creators original intent.

Most Discussion Boards usually have a few stickies for keeping the important stuff easy to find and most likely this suggestion already came up amongst the dev's, but I thought I'd suggest it just in case.
_________________________
BrianT - 15 R1200RT-P (Work), 16 FJR1300ES (Play)

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. - Matthew 5:9

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#2790 - 02/16/06 06:18 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Dennis Andress]
Ken H. Offline
Turtle Whacks
Member

Registered: 04/13/03
Posts: 16404
Loc: Edmonton, AB Canada
How about MYRP two-up?

Maybe not perfect. but close I believe:


_________________________
Ken & Donna H.
Doctor – I need to learn how to relax faster.

If you want to ride tomorrow, ride quietly today.
Quiet is cool, silent is sexy.

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#2791 - 02/16/06 08:09 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: SageRider]
Whip Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 10434
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Michael

I think your right...I need to find a happy medium between wind/weather protection and the back pressure.....

Whip
_________________________
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#2792 - 02/16/06 10:06 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Whip]
ShovelStrokeEd Offline
MC Buffer
Member

Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 11539
Loc: SE Florida
Take your stock windscreen and lop about 2" off the top. Air will be smoother in the low position and about like the stocker in the raised.
_________________________
Just as every skill is improved by practice, so also is every bad habit made worse by repetition.

Swim upstream in life, only dead fish go with the flow.

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#2793 - 02/16/06 10:14 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: ShovelStrokeEd]
Whip Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 10434
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Ed

I use the CB sum-vee...it's lower than the stock, but I think I use it set too high, I'll work on it.....right now I'm having a blast riding the ZRX around with that little bikini fairing.....but it may rain on the way home tonight.

Whip
_________________________
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#2794 - 02/16/06 10:48 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Whip]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
Hi, Whip. I hope you'll let me address some things to others first. OK?

Laney, thanks so much for re-posting the picture of you on the Sport Bike. I always use pictures of you to illustrate great Riding Position because you do it with such fluid grace, and exhibit the Relaxed Connection with the bike that is so helpful not just straight and level but when we begin to get active with the bike. May I post some other pictures, particularly those taken during the K1200RS "orientation" oriented toward turning/controlling that big bike?

Dennis, your caring brotherhood always makes me aware of Why. Thank you, brother.

So Whip, I find Ed's reflections highly pertinent. I'll share that I've had to back off from long rides on my KRS, despite or also proven to me by the past Summer's cross-US trip, because it and my current (older, mature?) physiology is going to bring me neck pain when my torso is angled that far forward -- but along with other very subtle reasons as well. The discs in my neck are damaged from use, things like high G pull outs from dive bombing and extreme G turns in Air Combat Maneuvering, and loads and loads of more mundane Childishness. The "it" and "me" don't work together well for long days, and days-after-days. But, it's more "me" than "it".

But it does point out that we all differ in our physiology. The Concepts in MYRP are Starting Points, classes of things we each Adopt to set our body positions optimally, and also Adapt the setting of our body positions to in order to reap the huge rewards the hard won concepts can provide. I alone am not responsible for MYRP. Doctors, Physiologists, Sport Medicine and Trainers, as well as several profoundly great riders contributed to produce the principles we've all fought to learn - and all you folks keep adding to that benefit and helping others gain it.

But the point its, that while we Adopt, we do so only to a given level (that might increase with experience). Conversely, that while we Adapt, we do so only to a given level (that might increase with TRAINING). But while the opportunity of our experience to increase the benefits we receive is potentially Infinite, our abilities to Adapt through training are not: We DO have physical limitations.

Me sitting north of LA and you over there in Yeeee-Haaaaa TEXAS prevents looking at and touching so I can understand what you are DOING. Your Doing, in response to your own bike's configuration is what is yielding the result(s) you are experiencing. So it's up to you, buddy, to provide the physical Diagnosis about what's going on. I'm always here, along with these wonderfully caring Board Members, to help as best I can with your understanding of what that "means", and what path (Actions) you might take to achieve what you are seeking.

Sore necks seem to come most often from a less than optimum angle, for THAT person, of their shoulders in THE FORE-AFT PLAIN. The "gentle arc of the back" of MYRP is after getting a "natural", quite level fore-aft tilt of the shoulders. Conversely, "rounding the back" - in ANY manner, and at ANY place, including "bending at the waist - tilts the shoulders forward. Are you CERTAIN, you've completed the erection/gentle arching of your back?

Next to know about that Factor is that "natural" fore-aft shoulder tilt is that it is a ACCOMPLISHABLE RANGE. You have the ability to TRAIN yourself to set the shoulders in a less forward tilted arrangement. An exercise would consist of sitting in a low, hard backed chair and moving where YOU think the base of your neck is BACK. Do it with first light, and then increasing force. Hold the position for a 5 count and then relax that part of your body. After 5 to 7 cycles, stand up and move your outstretched arms in large, SLOW circles, of increasing intnesity, first BACK. Continue until you JUST begin to feel a strain or tiredness (5 - 10 circles, usually0. Then, RELAX all that circle muscle stuff and then 1/4 that many times, circle forward. Repeat the entire series of sit and circle about three times. Repeat for as long as you feel positive change... and then do it for one week more.

This also points out, through the advocation of those arm swings, that our "rounded versus braced-backward shoulder angle" has something to do with all this stuff that has us focusing on our neck. I ended up with TERRIBLE neck troubles from riding the RT that went away with the arrival of my FJR. Two things were at work there. The first was that I was continuously having to push on the left grip to counter that bike's severe PTTR. It led to cramping of the trapezius muscle. With further strain, in order to hold the bike's and my position as that tired, it invoked the muscle between shoulder blade and spine. That would cramp and now the neck erection muscles were tightened both to help in "keeping it all together", but also TO HOLD BACK THE OTHER PAIN!!! My pain in fact had not one thing to do with "holding my head up".

The second factor stems from both the specific Adaptation of MYRP posture to the RT's seat/bar/peg arrangement - exacerbated by the need to HANDLE its PTTR. Unlike the FJR the RT does not allow MANY of us to get our butt far enough aft to achieve enough forward torso angle in order to get hands on grips WITHOUT REACH. The magnitude of this indeed affected by how well we've trained ourselves, but also our individual physiologies.

That RT "ergonomic" gets my torso far more vertical than I'd like (While Laney, with her different physiology, just seemed to fall into a "quite low head position"). That in turn has me REACHING, but reaching DOWN somewhat to what we'd all consider an quite HIGH bar position. Despite that "high bar" consideration, take a look and see if it IN FACT is a low RELATIVE bar position for YOU -- because of how high off the ground your shoulders are. OK?

For me, not only could I "see" the RT grips WERE "down", but because of the aforementioned PTTR handling, I was PUSHING "down". Lots of Pain, buddy. Lots of Pain.

That "down push" comes up when riding my RS as well. And even sometimes on my glorious VFR. In EVERY case, I find my FOREARMS ARE NOT LEVEL. Given even the LEAST opportunity, I will STILL tend to PUSH DOWN on the grips of those bikes. As I Adapt to the VFR, getting my torso more forward and thus shoulders and head lower, my forearms stay more level, and I don't "push". And even with my head so low, "looking up" does NOT produce a strain on my neck.

Oh, I've also learned to ALLOW my head to angle "relaxedly". I can do that AND STILL SEE UP because I raise the brim of my helmet and get my glasses as high as that allows. A PROPERLY FITTING HELMET will stay in that position even in the face of a blast over 150 mph on the VFR.

ALL those pieces very much are a part of MYRP. MYRP provides Concepts, and Directions To Head. We Adopt them, and Adapt to them, one by experience and knowledge. The other through experience-and-knowledge-based Training.

"Getting it Right", is getting it right for each one of us. The DETAILS of how we are Adopting and Adapting are how we take what is inarguably Fundamentally "right", and make it right for our own self.

If and when we reach physiological limitations about our own Adaptation, it points to Adopting control arrangements, perhaps on a different bike - with a different range of relationships - one(s) to which we will be able to Adapt.

Did I mention that PUSHING DOWN WITH THE FEET can ALSO remove neck strain? Oh Lordy!! MYRP really and truly WAS created by phyisologists to be an INTEGRATED USE of all the muscles it talks about.


So Whip, Feel the individual muscles above your waist to find out what you are Doing - but there are perceptual limitations to that. Perhaps you can have somebody TOUCH you, Whip, so they can feel what muschles you are using. Get the Details.

Happiness is in the Details.

Best wishes.
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2795 - 02/17/06 12:26 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Whip Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 10434
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Hey Dick

Thanks for your long distance observations. From what I can understand of the riding positions it uses many of the same terms as a two plain golf swing. I picture my posture like Tiger with a driver. I know you know what I'm talking about because of your Bio. Bending at the hips is golf talk and something I've worked on for years. I do feel cramped on the RT and the raised bars made it worse. I also worked on raising the helmet, it seemed like a good idea when I was ridng around Wyoming one day, but I don't remember the results. I think I may work on bending my arms more and changing my back angle while keeping Tiger in mind. I don't want to go all the way to VJ(one plain swing). More pushing down with my feet is also something I will monitor more closely.

That touching stuff sounds good...I'll let Mrs. Whip go first. It's her B-day tomorrow. 39 for the first time

Thanks Again
Whip

BTW....When are we gonna play golf?????


Edited by Whip (02/17/06 12:30 AM)
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I am their leader, which way did they go?

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#2796 - 02/17/06 02:02 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Laney Offline
Streamwalker
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 2163
Loc: Port Orchard, WA
May I post some other pictures, particularly those taken during the K1200RS "orientation" oriented toward turning/controlling that big bike?

Sure Dick -- I thought some of them might be good too. I thought I had copies of all of them, but couldn't find them anywhere on my drives.

Shaun, you don't have to take the RS off the dartboard, just don't aim so well. It's been 1200 miles and more than a month since the last problem, unless you count the broken license plate bracket, so I'm starting to get encouraged.
_________________________
Laney

Happily clipping the wings on Screaming Eagles all over the West

'15 F800GT "Graphite Gremlin"
'09 K13S "Clipper" - Sold and greatly missed

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#2797 - 05/21/06 02:57 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: ShovelStrokeEd]
wilsons Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 1310
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Quote:

The real beauty of the Master Yoda position is that it can be practiced quite effectivly at a bar stool. In fact, those who yelp about it would benefit from that very thing.





I reread this little piece this evening to see if I can improve on anything, and there is, of course. Whats interesting to me about this riding position is as I sat here reading it and kind of as I'm typing this, I'm sitting in the forward position, the 'sit up and beg' position always bothered me in chairs, so I never really sat like that. Pretty amusing to me.

I've come along way since the first time I took Tri-States R12ST out around the belt way for an hour, I was one hurtin puppy, wrists, back, neck, fore arms, yea it was bad, BUT that was my first esperience on that bike so I was pretty tense. After a while I was starting to do some of the things I read here without even realizing what I was doing.

After I got my own ST in Oct I didn't get aquainted with this bike til a few months ago. So What I DO need to work on is better weight distribution. I was on on a few 3 hour journeys, one today in fact, and I'm fine, just tired from the wind. As I remember, my first 3hr trip in November, i was lying on the tank cuz I was tired, today I came home, wind beat, and made dinner, and went out and did other things in the evening.

No pain, no aches, just wind beat, and well actually I'm suffering some calf cramps, but come to think of that over the last 10 minutes I also realize that since I'm sitting in this position, there kind of... gone. I'm pretty sure its no head trick either. I was in the popasan chair, hurting, watching tv, then I lyed down, hurting, and now im here. and they're not so... hurting. Still there but not, hurting. hm


Thanks for the body saving post! I'm glad to know theres something very useful in something I've done for alot of my own life, and wasn't even aware of it
_________________________
-ShawnW "I refuse to tip-toe through life to arrive safely at death" 2005 R1200ST Silver/Gray

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#2798 - 05/25/06 01:23 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: wilsons]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
Shawn, I'm feeling intensely grateful that I was able to produce something to contribute to your enjoyment of riding.

I hope to soon rewrite the piece with more simplicity, more also more clarity about it's helpfulness, and better illustrations and better ways to train up to do it well, and thus get its benefits.

Ride on, brother.
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2799 - 05/29/06 07:44 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
BereIsland Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 804
Loc: Eastleigh,Hampshire,England
Dick, I too have read your advice, it works

Steve
_________________________
If you spot it, you've got it

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#2800 - 10/28/06 01:49 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
stefeb Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 26
Quote:

Shawn, I'm feeling intensely grateful that I was able to produce something to contribute to your enjoyment of riding.

I hope to soon rewrite the piece with more simplicity, more also more clarity about it's helpfulness, and better illustrations and better ways to train up to do it well, and thus get its benefits.

Ride on, brother.




I know I've arrived late to the dance, but boy, I'm glad I found this thread.

I just did a demo ride on a GT, coming from an LT, and I found I was leaning forward, and that I was putting a great deal of pressure on the handle bars. I thought, "Well, if I can move the bars back and up, then I can almost sit as upright as I do on my LT." I now see I was thinking all wrong.

I'm about to prove, once again, that I'm not the brightest bulb in the box...But, what you are saying is that a proper amount of forward lean is not only normal, but good for you as well.

I have been thinking of ways to make the GT more LT like in terms of riding posture, but now I realize it's my position on the GT that has to change, and not the GT to accomadate my riding position.

Thank you so much for posting your MYRP information.

Is there a site where pictures would be available? That would be a great help.

Thanks again, you've have provided a great deal of encouragement to me.

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#2801 - 10/28/06 02:33 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: stefeb]
russell_bynum Offline
bounce
Member

Registered: 06/14/01
Posts: 27247
Loc: Wildomar, CA, USA
I'm about to prove, once again, that I'm not the brightest bulb in the box...But, what you are saying is that a proper amount of forward lean is not only normal, but good for you as well.

Exactly.

Human beings aren't built to sit on our butts. We're built to squat. 2-year-olds already know more about the Master Yoda Riding Position than any adult. Just watch them squat down to pick up something on the floor. We have to learn how to do it wrong.
_________________________
Russell
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

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#2802 - 10/28/06 11:50 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: russell_bynum]
stefeb Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 26
Quote:



Exactly.

Human beings aren't built to sit on our butts. We're built to squat. 2-year-olds already know more about the Master Yoda Riding Position than any adult. Just watch them squat down to pick up something on the floor. We have to learn how to do it wrong.




Thanks for the confirmation.

Do you know where there might be some pictures on the web that would show the proper/improper position? That would be extremely helpful to me, as I tend to overdo things a bit.

Thanks again.

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#2803 - 10/29/06 01:33 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
E30TECH Offline
Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 2378
Loc: Oak Ridge, New Jersey
Quote:

The keynotes to "the" Riding Position are:
Bend at the HIPS, not waist
Maintain a SLIGHT arch to the back, not allowing it ever to "curve"




I have noticed that I get a pain in my right shoulder blade. I assume it is from being tense and wrong posture.

I have a question about the above line I quoted. As stupid as it may sound, I cannot figure out "Bend at the HIPS, not waist". Should you keep your back 'locked' straight and lean forward? I cant tell if I am bending at the waist or hips.

I have noticed that my back will tend to 'sag' as I ride and I'll staighten out. By this time the shoulder is already hurting. Another problem is I'm sure I am putting weight on my arms.

The good thing is I have not been riding the RT that long - only about 700 miles. Hopefully any bad habit(s) I have been utilizing will easily be unlearned.

BTW - I was considering BarBacks. I did a search on them and stubled across this thread.
_________________________
'04 1150RT...Now with Öhlins
Ride Your Own Ride...I'll Just Wait For You



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#2804 - 10/29/06 01:59 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: E30TECH]
David Offline
Proprietor Emeritus
Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 25817
Loc: Nipper's Corner, TN
Quote:

I have a question about the above line I quoted. As stupid as it may sound, I cannot figure out "Bend at the HIPS, not waist". Should you keep your back 'locked' straight and lean forward? I cant tell if I am bending at the waist or hips.

I have noticed that my back will tend to 'sag' as I ride and I'll staighten out. By this time the shoulder is already hurting. Another problem is I'm sure I am putting weight on my arms.




Here you go. The first one is bad. The second is good.






This isn't necessarily true in other venues, but on a motorcycle, the easiest way to check yourself is to verify that there is a slight concave curvature in your chest, like you're pushing it outwards. That ensures that your hips are rotating forward to make the lower half of your upper torso point forward so that the upper half of your upper torso can angle more upright (vs. forward). Notice especially the difference in curvature that Nathan's demonstrating. It's a little hard to see with his bulky suit.

Bad position, looking from the side, has the lower half of your upper torso angling straight up, and your upper half angling forward. Good position has the lower aiming forward and the upper aiming upward.
_________________________
Author, Speaker, Advisor, Troublemaker

David C. Baker

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#2805 - 10/29/06 02:15 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: David]
E30TECH Offline
Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 2378
Loc: Oak Ridge, New Jersey
Thanks for posting those pics with the description.

Turns out I try to start off like in the 2nd picture, but after a while, I revert to the 1st picture. This is when the pain starts and I am reminded to correct the posture.

That must be why Yoda suggests practice! I'll go try it on the centerstand since we have 50 mph winds here today.

Thanks again -
Perry
_________________________
'04 1150RT...Now with Öhlins
Ride Your Own Ride...I'll Just Wait For You



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#2806 - 10/29/06 07:36 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: David]
stefeb Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 26

Quote:


Here you go. The first one is bad. The second is good.





Excellent pictures. Thanks so much. Without those pictures I think I would have fallen into the "bad" position, and think it was right.

I did some crude photoshoping and added some lines which bring out the differences in posture, and would be interested in some comments as relates to the lines and where they fall in relation to the feet.

The Good -


The Bad -


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#2807 - 10/29/06 08:10 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: stefeb]
David Offline
Proprietor Emeritus
Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 25817
Loc: Nipper's Corner, TN
The curvature of the back--which you highlighted--is the telling thing, and it can be achieved on any bike, now matter how much you are leaning forward.

The position of the footpegs will vary from bike to bike, and in those cases you'll need to compensate.
_________________________
Author, Speaker, Advisor, Troublemaker

David C. Baker

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#2808 - 10/29/06 08:22 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: David]
stefeb Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 26
Quote:

The curvature of the back--which you highlighted--is the telling thing, and it can be achieved on any bike, now matter how much you are leaning forward.

The position of the footpegs will vary from bike to bike, and in those cases you'll need to compensate.




Thank you.

So the old, "chest out soldier" is one of the keys of proper riding position

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#2809 - 10/29/06 08:27 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: stefeb]
David Offline
Proprietor Emeritus
Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 25817
Loc: Nipper's Corner, TN
Yes. Imagine that you have breast implants and want to show them off. Just keep thinking that and your back will never hurt.
_________________________
Author, Speaker, Advisor, Troublemaker

David C. Baker

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#2810 - 10/29/06 09:50 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: David]
russell_bynum Offline
bounce
Member

Registered: 06/14/01
Posts: 27247
Loc: Wildomar, CA, USA
Quote:

Yes. Imagine that you have breast implants and want to show them off. Just keep thinking that and your back will never hurt.




I'm pretty sure this is a good place for this emoticon:




_________________________
Russell
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

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#2811 - 10/30/06 10:44 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: David]
stefeb Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 26
Quote:

Yes. Imagine that you have breast implants and want to show them off. Just keep thinking that and your back will never hurt.




That word picture will stay with me a lifetime. Thank you...I think

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#2812 - 10/30/06 05:33 PM Staying With The LT [Re: David]
stefeb Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 26
First, let me say thank you to all who responded.

Secondly, I'm staying with the LT. It was the ergonomics, who for me just didn't work.

From reading all about correct riding posture, I realized my first test ride was bending at the waist, elbows locked, etc. In other words, the only thing I did right was not drop the bike.

My second test ride, today, was picture perfect in terms of posture. Bending at the hips, elbows bent, chest out, arch in back, barley touching the hand grips, etc. But, it just wasn't comfortable.

I'm sure in time, I may, (and that's the key word) gotten used to the lean forward position, but $20,000 plus, is too pricey experiment, only to find the GT is not the right bike for me.

There's no denying the GT is one fantastic bike, but just not for me.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

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#2813 - 11/05/06 04:37 PM Re: Staying With The LT [Re: stefeb]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
Quote:

First, let me say thank you to all who responded.

Secondly, I'm staying with the LT. It was the ergonomics, who for me just didn't work.

From reading all about correct riding posture, I realized my first test ride was bending at the waist, elbows locked, etc. In other words, the only thing I did right was not drop the bike.

My second test ride, today, was picture perfect in terms of posture. Bending at the hips, elbows bent, chest out, arch in back, barley touching the hand grips, etc. But, it just wasn't comfortable.

I'm sure in time, I may, (and that's the key word) gotten used to the lean forward position, but $20,000 plus, is too pricey experiment, only to find the GT is not the right bike for me.

There's no denying the GT is one fantastic bike, but just not for me.

Thanks to everyone who responded.


Good Going!! You've started!

It can take some time to undo any Habitual Behavior. "Strange Sitting on a Motorcycle" is just an "educated into our doing bucket" item. We "learned", actually taught ourselves, to sit on a bike the way we do.

Now we can teach ourselves to do that thing differently.

It takes persistence. In my articles about MYRP I suggest that we learn the position on a static, non-moving bike. Tense, stretch and feel the proper postion. Do it "wrong" too, and feel that. Getting the feel of both is important.

Then, when we go riding, start of doing it the new, more life-serving way. Be certain then to only ride that new, life-serving way. When we feel we've slipped out of it, just Notice that and no more - don't get into beating ourselves up over the "drop off". Just notice it and get back to doing things the way we're wanting to; Get back in the desired position and Ride On.

Stop riding when we find we're needing to make that correction more and more frequently: We're getting tired. We've reached the current limit of the endurance of the new muscle set we're using for the new, more life-serving Riding Position. Get off and give it a rest.

At least, get stopped, off the bike and walk around it in a circle. Stretch, bend, flex and relax all the body muscles. Get down in a half squat and push with the heals, not the balls of the feet, to stand up. Feel that set of muscles: They are the ones we need to be applying pressure with in order to provide support for the torso.

That's the key. That's where riders get off track with MYRP. Get back on track and be pushing downward, gently but persistently, constantly, at the heels on the footpegs. Keep that gently arch backward in the torso bent at the hips. Flop the elbows from time to time to prove we don't have pressure on the bars and are not using the hands and arms to keep the torso erect.

As we do this correctly, achieve the "bone" positions and angles, more and more we we finally come to the place where we are using the correct muscles to achieve those postions and angles. When we start off, we are not. Really, we need to "cut and try" until we find the actually, specific, "just those" muscles that do that without tiring. Honest, they are there - We've proven that with now about at thousand Riders. Those muscles do not tire very quickly. Eight, ten and twelve hour days really are available when we get those exact muscles identified, and train ourselves up to use just those.

Only ride as long as we can do this correctly. Stop and re-group when we tire. Take the time to re-educate.

It pays off in the long run.


Best wishes.
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2814 - 11/05/06 05:10 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: E30TECH]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
Quote:

I have noticed that I get a pain in my right shoulder blade. I assume it is from being tense and wrong posture.

...

BTW - I was considering BarBacks. I did a search on them and stubled across this thread.


This is not an item greatly covered in MYRP, but is something that I personally suffered that actually led to doing the research, and the years of development of MYRP. It's most likely something a little different, something additional to what's handled specifically by MYRP.

MYRP calls for "arching the back", a backward bowing of the torso as if attempting to get the backs of the shoulders to touch our butts. We don't to this strenuously, but rather it's a gentle, a slight, "backward bend". This is called for because it evokes the use of certain other muscle groups, ones that are used to erect or "hold up" the torso - keep our chin off the tank.

That "straightening" of the torso is what takes us away from the damaging actions of "normal sitting upright on a motorcycle". It removes downward pressure by the vertebra onto each other, squishing the "discs" that interpose between them. Any gentle arching action creates a less damaging alignment of those vertebra one to the other. Less pain results. A sense of less tiredness results.

In the same way that "bending forward" with the torso, a motion toward getting the shoulders to touch the belly button, brings a less desireable alignment of the vertebra: So does "Rounding The Shoulders Forward". That's a motion/position where we'd be trying to get our shoulders to meet in front of us beneath our chin.

This is a damaging movement/position for it too compresses the discs in an ultimately painful manner. It in fact promotes a "bend forward" of the spine in a specific area of the back - between the shoulder blades. This will produce "muscle" pain - actually a Pain Response that emanates from the nerves at that pinched spinal area. Muscle tension is a respose, actually a Reaction, to that "squish pain" thing we're doing to ourselves.

KEEP THE SHOULDERS BACK !!!

In the same manner we achieve "A gentle arch of the back", be certain we are also achieving: "A gentle 'pull back' of the shoulders".

The pain in muscles around the T3 to T5 area will disappear.


That is the reason I never tell folks not to use bar backs: It just may be that a given individual cannot get the arm/shoulder/back/hip thing adjusted so they don't Round The Shoulders to reach bars that far away from their belly button.

I personally want to have my upper arm vertical when I ride, and my lower arm parallel to the ground: My elbows will then be directly behind the grips, and the 90 degree bend at the elbow "just feels in a way that always tells me 'All this Stuff is OK.'" That's the Optimum... for me.

I'll adjust things about the bike trying to reach that or get as close to that as possible. Bar backs may be part of that.

Part of the reason I seek this 90 degree bend is that when my upper arms are pointed forward, I like all other humans, will tend to round my shoulders forward across time seeking support for Holding my hands up so they don't put pressure on top of the grips.

Do what works for you.

Keep them shoulders back.


Best wishes.
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2815 - 11/05/06 10:25 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
E30TECH Offline
Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 2378
Loc: Oak Ridge, New Jersey
It really takes a lot of work to ride like that. Every couple miles I tend to slowly lean forward and have to correct the posture.

I will work on that before buying the barbacks.

Thanks,
Perry
_________________________
'04 1150RT...Now with Öhlins
Ride Your Own Ride...I'll Just Wait For You



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#2816 - 11/06/06 12:21 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: E30TECH]
Lawman Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 3604
Loc: Joaquin, Texas
I also tend to find myself gradually slumping again into a forward position mostly I think because I catch so much more wind when I keep my shoulders up and back..But I will say it does seem like a better riding position.
_________________________
Billy Hearnsberger
2005 R1200RT
Life is good. Then you die.

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#2817 - 11/06/06 04:32 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Lawman]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
Quote:

I also tend to find myself gradually slumping again into a forward position mostly I think because I catch so much more wind when I keep my shoulders up and back..But I will say it does seem like a better riding position.


Billy, I'm wondering if your position is perhaps still "too upright"?

When I see you ride an RT which has massive air deflection, and hear about "...I catch so much more wind when I keep my shoulders up and back.", it brings me to envision a near vertical, or quite vertical torso. If one is led to do what ultimates in "lowering the position of the head" in response to "catching air", that head was perhaps too high to begin with... and lowering it was a kind of sound move.

Lowering it by bending, throwing a curve forward of the spine, is of course going to cause fatigue and a degree of pain in the near term and produce unnecessary damage across time. The best way I can think of to stop that, is get the head lower in the first place !!!

I'd try sliding the butt aft a few inches on the seat. Then, lean forward more, bending at the hip joint, until you get the head down where "you are seeming to want it."

Sliding the butt aft provides two primary aids. First, it allows getting the upper body weight more directly over the foot pegs - it's Balanced (see the photos on this page of the thread posted by David). Balanced like that, less energy is required to hold that position.

The second benefit of sliding the butt aft is that the downward pressure on the foot pegs we should constantly maintain, now gets "easier" in that the pressure vector (from where the knee is now further aft) is more nearly vertical. It makes it easier to "lift" the butt off the seat (the kind of motion/pressure we're using to help hold the torso up). It's like exchanging a pair of rear-sets for more forward pegs - always a comfort inducing change.

I hope that proves of some help.


Best wishes.
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2818 - 11/06/06 04:57 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Lawman Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 3604
Loc: Joaquin, Texas
"I'd try sliding the butt aft a few inches on the seat. Then, lean forward more, bending at the hip joint, until you get the head down where "you are seeming to want it."

You are spot on! I've learned to do that but after a while I begin to tire somewhat in my back..Still all in all I can stay comfortable longer adding your suggested riding style to an assortment of other positions..Remember I'm just an old Harley rider that still misses the forward controls of my Wide Glide sometimes.. And while I don't use the backrest when practicing the Yoda position I do still use it other times...
_________________________
Billy Hearnsberger
2005 R1200RT
Life is good. Then you die.

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#2819 - 11/06/06 05:13 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: E30TECH]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
Quote:

It really takes a lot of work to ride like that. Every couple miles I tend to slowly lean forward and have to correct the posture.


Perry, I know what you mean, getting the sense about "it being a lot of work". But I want to bring forward a degree of truth: There's a different Reality.

Holding any Riding Position is Work - it takes energy to sit on and ride a bike. We are always using muscles to hold our Riding Position --- no matter which position that is.

With MYRP we're not adding work, we're calling for using different muscles to do the work. Not "More"; Just "Different".

In fact, the whole idea in MYRP is to change the muscles used over to those which are already stronger at that task, and which tire less easily.

"The work", what seems like "work", is just Change. It is a mental change that takes place first - Thought always precedes and drives Action. We lose our Determination, our Decision, to "act differently". It comes about because we are receiving new sensations, new calls, feedback from our muscle use. That seems like a discomfort mostly because it is new.

We've always been receiving feedback from the constant muscle use to hold our "old" Riding Position. We've just become accustomed to that; It's come to seem normal - that constant input of feeling.

Now we've got a different Feeling, a different set of sensations of Feedback. All it is is... new.

We'll "get over that", cease to have what seems like an unnecessary discomfort. Just notice it. Understand what it is: A different set of feedback sensations. That's GOOD!!!! It means we're being successful!!! We're doing it correctly. We're winning!!

Then, get on with flexing and relaxing so we "fall" back into our new way of aligning our body parts when Riding.

That next minute of doing it correctly is our Success.


Best wishes.
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2820 - 11/06/06 08:28 PM Re: Staying With The LT [Re: rdfrantz]
stefeb Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 26
Quote:

Good Going!! You've started!...






Thanks, Dick.

I've started adapting your riding technique on the LT, and have found it becoming more comfortable. I use the MYRP for a bit, then go back to the "old" way, try MYRP for a bit more, etc. I am getting more used to it.

Perhaps, this spring I may give the GT another try.

Thanks for your encouragement, and your time in helping all of us ride in a more healthy manner.

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#2821 - 06/04/07 10:57 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
okiebiker Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 21
Loc: Norman, OK, USA
I have been advising 2 friends: one a 65 year old on an R1200C who has a pinched nerve in his neck & a 58 year old who is having trouble visualizing a shift from his Harley cruiser position to a K1200 or R1200 riding position. I have explained the ergonomics, but am afraid pictures would be better than my feeble verbal explanations. Is there a website for the Dick Frantz discussion or Alexander method. Pls forward to drbiker@cox.net. Thanks.

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#2822 - 06/05/07 06:39 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: okiebiker]
russell_bynum Offline
bounce
Member

Registered: 06/14/01
Posts: 27247
Loc: Wildomar, CA, USA
Quote:

I have been advising 2 friends: one a 65 year old on an R1200C who has a pinched nerve in his neck & a 58 year old who is having trouble visualizing a shift from his Harley cruiser position to a K1200 or R1200 riding position. I have explained the ergonomics, but am afraid pictures would be better than my feeble verbal explanations. Is there a website for the Dick Frantz discussion or Alexander method. Pls forward to [Email]drbiker@cox.net.[/Email] Thanks.




Look up a few posts in this thread. David posted pictures of his son Nate on his R1200GS demonstrating the right and wrong position. The exact position will change depending on the bike, but the fundamental ideas are the same. I use the same basic position fundamentals if I'm on my CBR600RR with racing rearset footpegs and racing clip-on handlebars as I do on my Aprilia Tuono, Lisa's R1100RS, and even my dirt bike.
_________________________
Russell
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

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#2823 - 06/08/07 06:59 PM the ape-hanger Riding Position [Re: russell_bynum]
blitzkreig Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 33


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#2824 - 06/10/07 02:01 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
hopz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/05
Posts: 3725
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
I want to thank Dick for all the energy he has put into leading us to relearn the important things...

I have come to this forum from many years on cruisers and on Harley Touring bikes, which as you might imagine were apparently not designed with MYRP in mind. I did learn years ago that to help improve my comfort on the long ride, I could rotate my hips forward, as if I had a huge beer belly and at the same time to hold my shoulders back.

(In-fact I have often thought that some of the people in the Harley crowd DO have huge beer bellies, and that the weight of the belly tilts the hips forward and perhaps an unintended consequence is that they are somewhat more comfortable as a result )

In fact, that was a major part of me getting my sweet R1100R and I am now in the market for the K1200GT.

NOw, having said all that I want to ask Dick and others- what the relationship is between MYRP, the Alexander Technique, and Moshe Feldenkrais' work, especially "Awareness Through Movement" , and Muscle Memory Work- especially at the Cellular level?

And, I believe Awareness is an important prerequisite to re-learing and change.

OBTW. I am loving my mare active participation in this Forum, and now that I am a certified BMW guy- look forward meeting many of you at a future Torrey... since I live in Utah.

Thanks again.
Bob

MNHBWY... (May New Habits Be With You)
_________________________
<---- (That's not it) 2014 R1200RT-W

“As Woody Guthrie says, ‘Left wing, right wing, chicken wing.’I keep my mind open. Whatever you believe, it’s all a mystery in the end.”

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#2825 - 06/15/07 02:52 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: hopz]
rdfrantz Offline
Master Yoda
Member

Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Carlsbad,, CA USA
Bob:

MYRP was developed independently without recourse to either Alexander Technique, or Moshe Feldenkrais' work. I do find similarities in several of my teaching methods, more toward other motorcycling matters than MYRP, but my methodology is unique. "Imaging", and developing "muscle use patterns" are present, but the work overall bears more resemblence to Homer Kelley's "The Golfing Machine" than anything else. But again, that applies more to things I teach wholly aside from MYRP.

Perhaps one aspect of MYRP does bear great similarity to Mr. Alexander's self-describing quote: "Anyone can do what I did, IF they will do what I did." I had a problem; I identified it; I devolved it; I rebuilt my position solving the problem; I sought help in understanding how to provide support for it from other musculature. At the time work was underway by DP Produces to insturment golfers to understand the physiology of the golf swing, and then with gymnasts to understand the implmentation of their Skills. Sports Medicine was not a widely recognized discipline yet, so I sought information and direction from sports trainers who were trained physical therapists, and from kinesthesiologists. The latter was mainly to confirm what I had learned/discovered, and to ensure nothing damaging was likely to pursue. They also provided additional insight on "what had gone wrong for most folks" (sitting upright), and "why this new way of sitting a motorcycle works".

Generally, MYRP is JUST DO IT!! Keep the head stuff out of it. KISS.

I do not consider that dynamic motion is of great importance to learning the MYRP technique. Sufficient of its benefit will accrue from the simple training demonstrations presented, and the light exercise I suggest. That exercise is not designed as a "strenth builder", but rather to identify the muscle groups to use. It also provides focus on the body positions required.

"Flex and Relax" exhortations in the self-demonstrations is indeed about building muscle memory. If one has Visualization skills they wish to augment this with, they should feel free to do so. I rely heavily on visualization in my other teachings. I don't consider such to be highly useful with MYRP - an entirely personal choice and consideration - because there are low dynamics - little movement.

I do consider that Feel is of paramount importance - especially in this less dynamic realm. However, I adamantly reject and discourage at high cost the use of developing "cellular level memory" about any work I'm involved in!!! I strive for conscious level understanding and control in virtually all spheres of life.

I consider Behavior patterns to be important. However they are usually considered by others, and acted with and upon with/as less than fully concious methodologies.

For Skills much more dynamic than a Riding Position, I instead teach the building of - The Copyrighted - conscious Action Package. It consists of Visualization, sensory recording, dynamic recording, and several other elements, that ultimate as a Process.

MYRP is far more simple. Get on a bike and produce the key results, straight or slightly arched back, that torso leaned somewhat forward, no hand pressure atop the grips, as great a balance of the torso/head/arm mass over the feet as possible. Support with downward pressure of the feet - at the heels, not toes. Adjust to fit (slide the butt usually aft). Do it for longer and longer periods, but only ever ride doing it correctly. KISS.

Flex and relax the pieces that are working so you can identify what makes it happen.


I don't really have much more to say in the broad pubic realm about technicalities - and in fact imagine what I've said in this post will have bored most readers already. If you wish, you can PM me for further techical interchange. I'm always glad to discuss things with friends.


Best wishes,
_________________________
Dick Frantz
SoCal

Nonviolent Communication: www.cnvc.org
Compassion, Regard, Understanding, Connection.

2005 VFR800(Sliver) "Little Silver"

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#2826 - 06/15/07 02:26 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Sidmariner Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 478
Loc: North Saanich, British Columbi...
Lower back discomfort was quickly apparent to me after picking up an '02 RT last October. My usual ride to that point had been the '86 K100RS.

After reviewing the MYRP I realized that the bar-backs, installed by the previous owner, were forcing me to the near vertical position. I removed them and now ride all day in comfort. Interesting how an inch of movement can make miles of difference.
_________________________
Thunderbird 1: '93 K1100LT
Thunderbird 2: '86 K100RS
Thunderbird 3: '02 R1150RT
Thunderbird 4: '77 R100/7
Thunderbird 5: '86 K75C

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#344537 - 06/04/08 08:02 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Sidmariner]
TryingToLearn Offline
Just Joined

Registered: 06/04/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Istanbul, Turkey
Hi, This is Omer, all the way from Turkey \:\)

In another forum, in reply to my question about riding position, some nice person pointed me to this very topic. And I am really glad that he did. I really have benefited from all the writings already.

However, because this is an old topic, some of the pictures are missing which seem to help a lot of people to understand what is being said. The pictures would especially help me as I am not a native speaker. Any idea how to restore those pictures? Or somebody nice enough to post them again?


Edited by TryingToLearn (06/04/08 08:10 AM)
Edit Reason: Fixed some spelling errors - why do you need to know :P
_________________________
K1200S 2008, 5000km as of June 1st :-) I love this bike!!!

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#345314 - 06/05/08 08:36 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: TryingToLearn]
pedro cerveza Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 403
Loc: South Florida
Hi Omer!
That was me. I'm ericw over there. I'm glad you found the link helpful.
_________________________
04 Titan Grey RT (Gone)
04 White Aluminium 1200CL (hers)
05 K1200S Bumblebee (Times 2, Both Gone)
15 K1300S Motorsport

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#345632 - 06/06/08 07:35 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: pedro cerveza]
TryingToLearn Offline
Just Joined

Registered: 06/04/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Istanbul, Turkey
Are you kidding me! This link is like the holy grail that Indiana Jones keeps looking for :).

I am reading it and trying to understand every bit. The pictures are missing though, and that's a shame.

I believe that driving a motorcycle is not just hopping on and turning on the gas. One must first learn how to sit on it first.

Anyway, I really thank you for pointing out this site and this link. Also, thank everyone for their input on this great topic.
_________________________
K1200S 2008, 5000km as of June 1st :-) I love this bike!!!

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#753816 - 01/17/12 12:46 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
boylanoil Offline
Just Joined

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 3
Loc: Hepa-Titusville, FL
Just joined here and like riding tips. I feel uncoordinated starting from a stop and making a right. Working on sitting up straight and lightly touching grips. Also my BMW shifts much more strongly than my Honda 600vlx and I'm trying to smooth out my shifting, up and down.
Disagree about swimming upstream- Why fight needlessly, instead become master of the Flow!
Where can I learn more about riding in these forums? Suggestions?

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#753848 - 01/17/12 05:00 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: boylanoil]
DaveTheAffable Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 1636
Loc: Southern Calif
Welcome Bill! Post an introduction of yourself over in "Motorcycle Talk"

Here...

Motorcycle Talk

The board has a number of Florida guys!

_________________________
Dave
'10 R1200RT

"No faster than my guardian Angel can fly...."

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#753870 - 01/17/12 01:31 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: boylanoil]
Huzband Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 7622
Loc: Cowford, Fl.
Originally Posted By: boylanoil

Disagree about swimming upstream- Why fight needlessly, instead become master of the Flow!
Where can I learn more about riding in these forums? Suggestions?


Going with the flow of traffic will get you complacent, & any cages around you are likely to forget you are there, assuming they ever saw you in the first place.

Check out Ride Well for more riding techniques than you could ever want. Oh, & welcome to the asylum.
_________________________
Danny

'07 R12GSA (Moose)
'10 530 XC-W Six Days
'90 RMX 250 (woods weapon)
'02 GasGas 280 Pro (Squirrel)
'08 Black Lab (Auto)
IBA #30344


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#753884 - 01/17/12 03:04 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: boylanoil]
tallman Offline
Picture Perfect Humorist
Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 19614
Loc: Tallahassee, Florida
Welcome.
You're talking about shifting the '98 RT, correct?
A different critter compared to the K bikes in this forum.
MYRP (Master Yoda's Riding Position) works very well on the K1200 RS/GT and is adaptable to other models.
Danny's suggestions are good and check out the Ride Smart session planning over in Events.
_________________________
If my mind wanders, should I follow it?
Tim
Conch Town Krewe
2003 K 1200 GT
1996 R 100 RSL
1980 R 100 RT
1972 R 75
1968 R 50
All now gone...


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#754205 - 01/19/12 02:44 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Mike Offline

Administrator
Member

Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 10311
Loc: Chicago area, IL, USA
It's great to see this thread resurrected. Started ten years ago by one of our iconic members, Dick Frantz, it's one of the classics.
_________________________
Mike The Moderator
Born to be Mild

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#786437 - 06/28/12 12:25 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: TryingToLearn]
conwaykraM Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Arkansas
Originally Posted By: TryingToLearn
Are you kidding me! This link is like the holy grail that Indiana Jones keeps looking for smile.

I am reading it and trying to understand every bit. The pictures are missing though, and that's a shame.

I believe that driving a motorcycle is not just hopping on and turning on the gas. One must first learn how to sit on it first.

Anyway, I really thank you for pointing out this site and this link. Also, thank everyone for their input on this great topic.

Yes. Very interesting read -especially for me.Yes, very helpful the Pictures would be . wink
_________________________
I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam

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#811679 - 12/01/12 08:54 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: David]
rx35285 Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 36
Loc: NE Iowa
David - would you mind re-posting your 2006 pic's?

[/quote]Here you go. The first one is bad. The second is good.






This isn't necessarily true in other venues, but on a motorcycle, the easiest way to check yourself is to verify that there is a slight concave curvature in your chest, like you're pushing it outwards. That ensures that your hips are rotating forward to make the lower half of your upper torso point forward so that the upper half of your upper torso can angle more upright (vs. forward). Notice especially the difference in curvature that Nathan's demonstrating. It's a little hard to see with his bulky suit.

Bad position, looking from the side, has the lower half of your upper torso angling straight up, and your upper half angling forward. Good position has the lower aiming forward and the upper aiming upward.[/quote]

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#846899 - 08/14/13 09:05 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rx35285]
Kathy R Offline
PaperButt
Member

Registered: 09/29/01
Posts: 9968
Folks

I made this sticky, for now, in Ride Well. Often folks have asked about, or referred to, Master Yoda's Riding Position thread. Recently Dennis asked that it be made a sticky.

Perhaps this thread will be useful, but it might evolve into a single post with Dick's dissertation on riding position.
_________________________




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#846901 - 08/14/13 09:14 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Kathy R]
Bernie Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/02
Posts: 2197
Loc: Jax, FL
Thank you, good idea. thumbsup
_________________________
Bernie
Jax, FL
2007 R1200RT, Double Silver
BMW-MOA, BMWOutriders
AMA, BMW-RA,

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#847289 - 08/16/13 10:25 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
flat_twin Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/02
Posts: 1207
Loc: Ohio
Wow has it been that long ago that I first read that thread? I have thought of and applied the fundamentals of the MYRP too many times to count. Probably every time I ride actually. And it's the same whether on the RS or the RT. Light hands, support with your core, slight arch in the back and a little pressure on the foot pegs. If I find myself slouching at all I think "Master Yoda" and get it right again. Very comfortable and a good way to meld with the bike too.
_________________________
Mark
Ohio
2 R's and a K

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#847303 - 08/16/13 11:57 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: flat_twin]
Huzband Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 7622
Loc: Cowford, Fl.
It's been a long time since I read this.

Seeing as I can't ride for a couple weeks, I may as well read about riding.
_________________________
Danny

'07 R12GSA (Moose)
'10 530 XC-W Six Days
'90 RMX 250 (woods weapon)
'02 GasGas 280 Pro (Squirrel)
'08 Black Lab (Auto)
IBA #30344


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#889346 - 06/11/14 04:49 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Huzband]
jackie Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 293
Loc: Oregon
Hi Huzband! Long time no see. Does anyone know whatever happened to Dick? sure miss him.
_________________________
Jackie

'04 piedmont red RT Prrr-T aka Purty
PDX
well behaved women rarely make history...
IBA #16940, Blue Knights Oregon I

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#889373 - 06/11/14 06:49 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: jackie]
JerryMather Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 3263
Loc: Sunny Southern, Calif., USA
Originally Posted By: jackie
Hi Huzband! Long time no see. Does anyone know whatever happened to Dick? sure miss him.


All we know or has been reported around here is that Dick had to give up riding due to an eye problem a few years back. Since then no one has been able to contact him with any sucess. Leslie & I have tried numerous times over the past couple years.

If anyone reads this and does know more than this, please PM me. I'd like to talk with you.
_________________________
Aprilia Tuono
DUCATI 996 SPS
BMW K1200 RS

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#889491 - 06/12/14 06:34 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: JerryMather]
jackie Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 293
Loc: Oregon
That is so sad. We need to show Dick some good old time RT love! Anyone please post if you get any updates!
_________________________
Jackie

'04 piedmont red RT Prrr-T aka Purty
PDX
well behaved women rarely make history...
IBA #16940, Blue Knights Oregon I

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#899894 - 08/17/14 05:43 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
Dave_zoom_zoom Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 637
Loc: British Columbia Canada
Thanks again Dick.

Your valuable insight and willingness to share is sincerely appreciated.

Hope you are doing well.

Best Regards

Dave

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#907938 - 10/12/14 04:36 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
TNT Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/02
Posts: 750
Loc: N.E. Wyoming
I just linked this to a new rider on the F800 forum. I still think this is very good info. On 10/10/14 I just did my first IBA SS-1000 in 19 hours. Thanks for keeping this up!
_________________________
14F700GS<04R1150RT-2008 MOA Gillette,it was more than a shave-Torrey IX-Cat o'Nine Tales-06 UnRally Gunnison,that was something! 2015 MOA Billings was an Adventure, Richard K7TNT IBA#59670,MOA#114372

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#908084 - 10/13/14 07:50 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: TNT]
Fivestar13 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/14
Posts: 83
Loc: Southeast USA (AL & NC)
Originally Posted By: TNT
I just linked this to a new rider on the F800 forum. I still think this is very good info. On 10/10/14 I just did my first IBA SS-1000 in 19 hours. Thanks for keeping this up!


Congrats on your SS1000!

Would you say that you employed the MYRP in doing so? In entirety or just a little bit here and there?


Edited by Fivestar13 (10/13/14 07:52 PM)
_________________________
Chris

1998 R1100RT ("RTD2")

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#928350 - 04/27/15 03:11 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
erickz Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 04/27/15
Posts: 13
I am very interested in this but found the verbal description lacking for my feeble brain. Would someone mind posting the pictures again of the correct MYRP and the incorrect MYRP?
Please...

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#929293 - 05/06/15 04:17 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: erickz]
Dennis Andress Offline
Boot Slayer
Member

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 4722
Loc: Port Orchard, Washington
Pictures are going to be hard to find.

At its simplest, MYRP comes down to four things:

0.) Bend at the hips, not with your spine
1.) Press down with your feet
2.) Lift up with your abs and thighs to keep your weight off the bars
3.) Lean forward so your elbows are bent and relaxed

You know you've got it right when your hands are lightly resting on the grips.

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#929503 - 05/07/15 09:53 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: erickz]
Matts_12GS Offline
Member

Registered: 03/26/05
Posts: 9486
Loc: Enfield, CT
Originally Posted By: erickz
I am very interested in this but found the verbal description lacking for my feeble brain. Would someone mind posting the pictures again of the correct MYRP and the incorrect MYRP?
Please...


Erickz, where are you located? If you're in the east at all, this RidingSmart class may have spaces available for our August session.
_________________________
Matt


2005 1200GS (Traveller)
IBA 37694

" ...if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? " --Ronald Reagan

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#929742 - 05/11/15 01:28 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: erickz]
Huzband Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 7622
Loc: Cowford, Fl.
Originally Posted By: erickz
I am very interested in this but found the verbal description lacking for my feeble brain. Would someone mind posting the pictures again of the correct MYRP and the incorrect MYRP?
Please...


What a great first post. All about riding rather than oil or whatnot.

Fill out your profile so we can know a bit about you.

As far as what Matt mentioned about RideSmart. While we have a full class with 4 alternates for August, it's just possible that we might have a spring '16 class.
Mind you, this hasn't been discussed yet, so stay tuned.

And welcome aboard. thumbsup
_________________________
Danny

'07 R12GSA (Moose)
'10 530 XC-W Six Days
'90 RMX 250 (woods weapon)
'02 GasGas 280 Pro (Squirrel)
'08 Black Lab (Auto)
IBA #30344


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#930253 - 05/15/15 12:13 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Dennis Andress]
Alba Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 131
Loc: Scotland, UK
Originally Posted By: Dennis Andress
Pictures are going to be hard to find.

At its simplest, MYRP comes down to four things:

0.) Bend at the hips, not with your spine
1.) Press down with your feet
2.) Lift up with your abs and thighs to keep your weight off the bars
3.) Lean forward so your elbows are bent and relaxed

You know you've got it right when your hands are lightly resting on the grips.


I am 6ft and historically rode my 1150RT with the seat at the highest setting, recently I dropped it down to the middle setting, found it helped (cornering comfort) along with the above.

Play with the seat height you may be surprised, I was.

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#933756 - 06/13/15 01:23 PM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: rdfrantz]
erickz Offline
Newer Member

Registered: 04/27/15
Posts: 13
Just went for my longest ride on the bike and was able to incorporate all the suggestions. It helped greatly. Thanks!

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#965304 - 07/07/16 02:54 AM Re: Master Yoda's Riding Position [Re: Dennis Andress]
beemerboy Offline
RallyMaster UnXI, Salida, CO
Member

Registered: 04/29/02
Posts: 1641
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
Originally Posted By: Dennis Andress
Pictures are going to be hard to find.

At its simplest, MYRP comes down to four things:

0.) Bend at the hips, not with your spine
1.) Press down with your feet
2.) Lift up with your abs and thighs to keep your weight off the bars
3.) Lean forward so your elbows are bent and relaxed

You know you've got it right when your hands are lightly resting on the grips.


This reminds me of trying to work on my golf swing. I try and try and try then I rent a cart, buy a few beers, and regale my fellow golfers with off color jokes or taunt them whilst they attempt to tee off or putt.

In the end I have a good time and that's all that matters. Same thing with riding.....except for the beer.
_________________________
Regards,
Randy
'02 R1150RT
'05 Ducati ST3
'06 K1200S

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