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#663103 - 12/19/10 01:06 AM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: CoarsegoldKid]  
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Whip Offline
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Originally Posted By: CoarsegoldKid
So I guess those business owners working hard and hiring peps to make e-cars a reality are socialists.

Not sure that petroleum products enjoying the feast off the government tet is what I call freedom. But it is cheaper at the pump.


Not socialist at all, they are recipients of corporate welfare and government intervention. Which usually end up fubar. Kinda like what you see all around you in the real estate world.

..but it really only sucks when you don't agree with it.

LOL


I am their leader, which way did they go?
#663114 - 12/19/10 01:48 AM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: moshe_levy]  
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I think there's a difference between Social Engineering attempts and porkbarrel or subsidy legislation. Although I also think that the line is plenty vague at times.

Was the government's goal of home ownership driven by a social vision or by the mortgage industry? 401k's for society or banking industry? Other examples will probably get me censored.

----


Maybe a chicken is just an egg's way of making more eggs.
#663120 - 12/19/10 02:32 AM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: RightSpin]  
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Originally Posted By: RightSpin
Originally Posted By: Killer
Quote:
I have a keen interest in a 4-wheel independant electric drive vehicle
I saw some numbers on a Cadillac like that - they were amazing. Not sure how public they were though obviously not very secret (FOAF), so I won't say more but they should be available online if they are public. (And anyway my memory of the actual numbers is not reliable)


Some of the most promising technology I've seen so far is the work being done at Porsche. They are solving the weight issues associated with engineering the drive motors within the wheels themselves. Once this challenge is unlocked, it can spill over to virtually any kind of torque-driven drive mechanism. The ability to instantly and precisely control the amount of torque being supplied to each wheel will create a quantum leap in performance over today's technology. That, in turn, will automatically lead to better efficiency. Again, a win-win scenerio.


Yes, but nothing really that new. The market must not've been quite ready for it. smile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche_Mixte_Hybrid


Bill

I didn't just ride in on a Buell.

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RA

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#663132 - 12/19/10 03:25 AM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: RightSpin]  
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I've been drooling over the 918 concept since I saw it 2 months ago in Automobile magazine. Rip your lips off and nearly 80 MPG? Hell yeah!


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#663152 - 12/19/10 08:51 AM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: markgoodrich]  
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Originally Posted By: markgoodrich
Originally Posted By: Whip
Originally Posted By: markgoodrich
I have a question for those participating in this thread who rail against "sanctimonious" and "holier than thou" hybridians. How did you arrive at that information? And the corollary is, why do you care so much about what other people drive, and why?



...and why do you care what others think about you or what you drive?

I don't care about what you think of me for owning a Suburban and a F150.

Who cares, we ride motorcycles. Most of the world thinks we are risking our lives unnecessarily.






You're, right, my comments about Hummers, etc, were really no different than Bynum's. I'm ashamed of myself, thank you for tactfully pointing out my error. Whip, I don't care that you drive a Burban/pickup.

Moshe's point of view is exactly mine; therefore, I'll let him speak without interference from me on this issue from this point forward.


Huh? What did I say?

I thought I was pretty clear that it was the sanctimonious douchebags who often drive Priuses (Prii?) that I have a problem with.


Russell
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
#663169 - 12/19/10 02:09 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: RightSpin]  
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Quote:
...a system which has produced more innovations which have improved the the lives of more people than any other development system ever conceived. The free market.


Ok, now that's funny! rofl

And, as Moshe points out, utterly ridiculous when applied to the transportation sector, in any event.

But in any event, this oft repeated myth has no evidence to back it up. I'm not even sure where you could find an example of a free market to study.


Jan

Sand Beige 2007 R1200RT "Flyer"



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#663171 - 12/19/10 02:12 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: IT_Mike]  
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Originally Posted By: IT_Mike
moshe,

Let me lob that one back at you. Is your question one of honest query?

You asked why many people dislike hybrids (Prius/Volt). I answered that question. Is the S40 diesel available in the US? No. Curious how you never asked why? Why aren't we using the most economical, fuel efficient, and environmentally friendly form of internal combustion?

Internal combustion engines are still the most economical, reliable, and efficient method of portable power generation. Until you find an better way, we're going to continue to need them.


You said because subsidies were controlling technology, or some such, and I asked for the details of the subsidies and how they worked. So far nothing. I find your point hard to accept without evidence.


Jan

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#663172 - 12/19/10 02:13 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: Whip]  
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Quote:
Not socialist at all, they are recipients of corporate welfare and government intervention. Which usually end up fubar. Kinda like what you see all around you in the real estate world.


The myth parade continues....


Jan

Sand Beige 2007 R1200RT "Flyer"



Blind Man Images on Facebook
#663204 - 12/19/10 03:46 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: Twisties]  
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Originally Posted By: Twisties
Quote:
Not socialist at all, they are recipients of corporate welfare and government intervention. Which usually end up fubar. Kinda like what you see all around you in the real estate world.


The myth parade continues....



Unless of course you can read, think for yourself, remember history....or in the very least visited the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village.

rofl





Last edited by Whip; 12/19/10 03:47 PM.

I am their leader, which way did they go?
#663209 - 12/19/10 03:59 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: Twisties]  
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Originally Posted By: Twisties
Originally Posted By: IT_Mike
Internal combustion engines are still the most economical, reliable, and efficient method of portable power generation. Until you find an better way, we're going to continue to need them.


You said because subsidies were controlling technology, or some such, and I asked for the details of the subsidies and how they worked. So far nothing. I find your point hard to accept without evidence.


Jan, I believe IT Mike's quote falls out of the realm of opinion and into refutable fact. Certainly there is no case to make that pure I/C engines are more economical than hybrids, since every hybrid version of a standard car gets better MPG, and every EV vehicle is about 5x less costly to run per mile than pure gas or diesel, even with amortization of the battery factored in. Certainly there is no case that I/C is more reliable than hybrid, either (check Consumer Reports reliability ratings or JD Power for proof). Definitely, IC is not more efficient than hybrid or electric - efficiency of even the best IC engines is quite poor, actually - around 20%.

But I think beneath all this is a core argument of "hybrid is NOT the be-all, end-all answer." To this, I wholeheartedly agree. We can do better, and many people like Shai Agassi are showing the way. Entire countries like Australia, Denmark, Israel, and even some states like California and Hawaii are involved in a serious effort to cut down on the cost, pollution, and (to me most importantly) political consequences of our addiction to oil.

I encourage anyone interested to watch Agassi's recent talk, as shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcoJt2KLC9k See if what he's saying makes sense to you, and decide for yourself.

-MKL


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