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#663213 - 12/19/10 04:05 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: moshe_levy]  
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Whip Offline
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Originally Posted By: moshe_levy
Originally Posted By: Twisties
Originally Posted By: IT_Mike
Internal combustion engines are still the most economical, reliable, and efficient method of portable power generation. Until you find an better way, we're going to continue to need them.


You said because subsidies were controlling technology, or some such, and I asked for the details of the subsidies and how they worked. So far nothing. I find your point hard to accept without evidence.


Jan, I believe IT Mike's quote falls out of the realm of opinion and into refutable fact. Certainly there is no case to make that pure I/C engines are more economical than hybrids, since every hybrid version of a standard car gets better MPG, and every EV vehicle is about 5x less costly to run per mile than pure gas or diesel, even with amortization of the battery factored in. Certainly there is no case that I/C is more reliable than hybrid, either (check Consumer Reports reliability ratings or JD Power for proof). Definitely, IC is not more efficient than hybrid or electric - efficiency of even the best IC engines is quite poor, actually - around 20%.

But I think beneath all this is a core argument of "hybrid is NOT the be-all, end-all answer." To this, I wholeheartedly agree. We can do better, and many people like Shai Agassi are showing the way. Entire countries like Australia, Denmark, Israel, and even some states like California and Hawaii are involved in a serious effort to cut down on the cost, pollution, and (to me most importantly) political consequences of our addiction to oil.

I encourage anyone interested to watch Agassi's recent talk, as shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcoJt2KLC9k See if what he's saying makes sense to you, and decide for yourself.

-MKL


Help me out here. Your not talking about the Volt....right.

Cause at it's current price and gas mileage it is not economical.

Or did I miss somethin.

L


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#663219 - 12/19/10 04:38 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: Whip]  
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We can, if you wish, use the Volt as an example. The math is not difficult, but we must (since electricity is involved) use an "average" type rate and then you can tweak based on the rates in your area. It won't make much difference, since the Volt and vehicles like it are indeed so much more economical for some buyers.

My father, for example, has a 20 mile round trip commute to work, but does not want a purely electric car that limits his range should he need to take the occasional long trip. So let's use a Volt and compare it to your average 25-30k sedan, like Camry.

Volt Price (after the evil subsidies - $7500 fed and state programs vary) - about $30,000.00
Camry price similarly equipped - about $30,000.00

Camry Price to run per mile (not factoring depreciation) - about 15 cents

Volt Price to run on electric: about 5 cents.

Remember, comparing the cost per mile of a gasoline car with a battery-powered vehicle is complicated by the fact that many regions here have different rates that depend on usage and time of day. Still, you will find something like 3x less cost per mile on a Volt vs typical gas sedan, and that benefit will only go up if you charge "smartly," meaning overnight when rates are low. The Volt lets you control this with your smart phone. Nifty!

Now, on gas, the Volt is reported at 37MPG. Pretty good, not as good as Prius but better than most gas cars.

Overall, the Volt is officially EPA rated at 93MPGe (electric mode) and 37 MPG (gas mode) for an EPA "combined composite" rating of 60MPG relative to all other cars (including compact cars). Meaning, for all intents and purposes, the EPA is telling you to use 60MPG in making your calculations to other more standard cars, like said Camry. If purchase price is similar, it's not difficult now to see that indeed it is more economical.

For people like my dad, he'll likely buy gas once or twice a year now, and so his operating cost per mile will fall significantly. For people who commute long distances on the highway each day, the "payoff" will be longer.

But that's only if you look at it from a purely economic view, which as I told Steve is not a valid view unless you live in a vacuum. To quote paraphrase Mastercard, it is "priceless" to me to be able to consider an American design that is clearly demonstrating a way to travel more economically, using more of our homegrown energy sources (clean, in my case as I described above) and much less of the foreign oil, while not limiting my range at all (the Volt can travel around 350 miles before it runs out of gas, same as any other car).

I should also mention here, GM is leasing the Volt for around $350-400 a month. This is actually less expensive than leasing most other comparable cars in its class.

-MKL


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#663221 - 12/19/10 04:41 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: RightSpin]  
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[/quote] I have no idea why Jeremy Clarkson* call's them'smugmobiles.' [/quote]

You mean that pompous **s what galoots around on tv? I don't recall seeing very many on tv less smug than he.

And I guess what you really mean is that a good ole red blooded 'mercan is supposed to be smug about wasting as much as possible. Even if he's English.

*His show panders to the lowest common denominator. The latest episode they are touting, they obtain old gm cars ... and destroy them. As entertainment?

Maybe you are not religious. There are religious people what believe that waste is a sin. Not entertainment.
dc

#663239 - 12/19/10 05:46 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: David13]  
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My dislike with Hybrid vehicles maybe dislike is a little harsh. Mostly comes from the false sense that they are so green . The batteries cause a huge impact on the environment during manufacturing process from mining the lead to processing it . The subsidies and tax credits that come out of our pockets and probably our childrens pockets . The whole concept is just smoke and mirrors just like all the carbon credits that get passed back and forth . I drive an 04 VW Jetta diesel w 214,000 miles on it average 14gal fuel tank is between 650 -700 miles , best mileage I have driven was just over 54mpg .
What I like about the Hybrid vehicle is less foreign oil used . I am very against foreign oil which is how I entered into the business that I am in manufacturing Anthracite burning stoves . Everyone thinks coal oh how dirty . It was stated in this thread that clean coal is an oxymoron ,simply not true. There are different types of coal Anthracite being very clean.
Sorry got off subject, My opinion is if you want a Hybrid to not use foreign oil that is great. If tax credits are your deciding factor don't . It just gets tiring having my hard earned money get thrown around filling other peoples pockets . The whole Hybrid thing to me is just like another ethanol scam which dosen't really save anything it just moves things around like a shell game .I would rather see more fuel efficient diesel vehicles come to market preferably American Made.

Dave


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#663244 - 12/19/10 05:53 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: moshe_levy]  
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Volt pricing and review.

Camry pricing and review.

It seems to me that after you run out of battery power the Camry is actually more efficient.

And cost $15,000 less....not counting the home charging station.

Where are the economics on this?


Not to mention pulling a trailer or road trips.


Give another ten years and a couple billion tax dollars.

wink


What happen to those diesel VW Rabbits of the 70's? The ones that got 60 mpg and never broke down. They were far more efficient than these hybrids.




Last edited by Whip; 12/19/10 05:59 PM.

I am their leader, which way did they go?
#663248 - 12/19/10 06:11 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: Whip]  
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Whip-

Not sure how you're getting to the conclusion about any of this. The Camry is not $15k less - maybe if you buy a totally base Camry with a steering wheel and 4 wheels, but nothing else. Similarly equipped to the Volt, they're about $30k.

In the end with the Camry you get 22MPG city, 33MPG highway. The Volt is no gas for 40 miles, 37MPG with, so 60MPG "real world" per EPA. So that's triple or double the MPG of the Camry, depending on how you compare. They cost the same to buy, or to lease - so how on earth is the Camry more efficient?

There is no "home charging station" with a Volt. It plugs into 120VAC. If you want to cut the charge time in half, you install a 230VAC outlet which any electrician can do, if you want. Totally optional, not necessary. So that's not a factor either.

Re pulling a trailer, I don't see the tow numbers on a Camry, but I don't suspect they're all that great. No fuel efficient car, Camry or Volt, is a top choice for towing anything, and the vast majority of car buyers do not ever tow.

Again, nobody said this was a blanket solution. Do your best to make an apples to apples comparo based on your own lifestyle, and then see if it makes sense or not. I can't get a Volt myself, for example, because it only seats 4 and I have 2 kids with a third on the way. Nevertheless for many it is a sensible choice.

-MKL


http://www.mklsportster.com/
2015 BMW R1200RT-LC
2013 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
1987 Yamaha YSR50
1973 BMW R75/5
"Lihiyot am chofshi b'artzeinu..."
https://www.youtube.com/c/motomouthmoshe
#663266 - 12/19/10 07:45 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: moshe_levy]  
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Base price on the Camry is $19k

Base price on the Volt after big bro rebate is $33k

14k buys a lot of gas

Without electricity they get within 4 mpg of each other.

Read the links above.



Last edited by Whip; 12/19/10 07:50 PM.

I am their leader, which way did they go?
#663284 - 12/19/10 10:11 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: Whip]  
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Originally Posted By: Whip

What happen to those diesel VW Rabbits of the 70's? The ones that got 60 mpg and never broke down. They were far more efficient than these hybrids.


So true. And in decades past Mercedes built a couple cars that got 40 mpg, the 190D (stick) and the '95 E300 diesel, a normally aspirated 4-valve 3500lb. luxury car that in the real world got 40mpg on the highway (I owned one, don't believe everything you read on the spec sheet). Which is to say they could do it again, and better, if they wanted.

I must say though, Honda and Toyota are doing a brisk business off the feel-good BS. I won't repeat it but Bynum's last post on the subject had me ROFL. grin


Bill

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#663288 - 12/19/10 10:29 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: roadscholar]  
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Originally Posted By: roadscholar
Originally Posted By: Whip

What happen to those diesel VW Rabbits of the 70's? The ones that got 60 mpg and never broke down. They were far more efficient than these hybrids.


So true. And in decades past Mercedes built a couple cars that got 40 mpg, the 190D (stick) and the '95 E300 diesel, a normally aspirated 4-valve 3500lb. luxury car that in the real world got 40mpg on the highway (I owned one, don't believe everything you read on the spec sheet). Which is to say they could do it again, and better, if they wanted.

I must say though, Honda and Toyota are doing a brisk business off the feel-good BS. I won't repeat it but Bynum's last post on the subject had me ROFL. grin



I would pay a lot of money for a Mercedes diesel SUV that got 30 MPG and could tow a trailer cross country.


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#663293 - 12/19/10 10:39 PM Re: Hybrid Hatred (Volt related) [Re: russell_bynum]  
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Originally Posted By: russell_bynum
I thought I was pretty clear that it was the sanctimonious douchebags who often drive Priuses (Prii?) that I have a problem with.

Now there’s a stereotype if I’ve ever seen one written.

Is it just even remotely possible Russell that at least some of those "douchebags" you so willingly disparage might be doing/driving the way they are because they believe it is the right thing to do?


Ken & Donna H.
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