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Is this forum dying?


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There is a NYTimes article about the waning participation in forums like this one. They are apparently being killed my FaceBook and Twitter. The author mourns their loss.

 

I have the feeling that the number-of-posts/per-unit-time is declining here as well. Am I correct? There seem to be fewer new topics than there were a few years ago.

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beemerman2k

Personally, I don't think it's dying at all. What's happening is that certain forums are attracting certain topics of interest, which works great for us here. You want to say something political or particularly inflammable and controversial? Maybe you'll do it on Facebook or Twitter instead of here, which is where such material seemed to be posted in the past.

 

As long as there are people out there who ride motorcycles, I imagine forums like this one will do just fine.

 

Could a forum rise up someday and take out a site like this one? Hey, this is technology. Nothing is forever in this world.

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Dunno. Summertime postings seem to drop off because people are riding.

 

I know I am not the only former rider who still frequents the O/T board because of the mix of knowledge, talent and opinion our contributors have.

 

I don't do FaceBook unless it is necessary.

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Facebook is clearly superior for general conversations, you get to include a wider range of people since most people here are motorcyclists. You can more easily choose which people to talk with as well, Google Plus is particularly good with its Circles concept.

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To quote Monty Python, "We're not dead yet."

 

In the world of ever-evolving technology, it seems inevitable that new technologies will supplant the old. But, at least for me, neither Facebook nor Twitter come anywhere close to providing a substitute for discussion boards. If your primary interest is in conveying information like "I'm in Poughkeepsie" or sharing your mood, they work fine. However, I think there's still a need for a technological vehicle that permits users to convey more detailed information, occasionally with photos, diagrams, etc.

 

We also have the advantage of not being a for-profit enterprise. The proprietors of BMWST have, from time to time, been offered pretty substantial amounts of money for the rights to the DB or for sponsorship, but their approach--with which I fully agree--has been to forego profit in lieu of best serving the needs of our community. If we were profit based, you'd certainly see a different approach and a more profit-driven analysis of how to draw more users to the board.

 

As it is, we attract a little over 100 new users per month (130 over the past 30 days). One of the admins with a better command of the control board than I could perhaps give you some statistics as to how busy we are these days, as compared to a year or two or three ago. I do know that my usage has changed from what it was years ago, and I'd suspect most people evolve in this respect. There are times when I'm fairly active and there are times when I'll go a couple of days without logging in.

 

Personally, I use Facebook quite a bit and Twitter almost never. I can't see either of those offering anything close to a substitute for what we have here, though they do offer some attractive attributes that we don't (and can't), like instant updates of where one is, the ability to take and upload a photo with little effort, etc.

 

I don't make the final decisions here, but I suspect we'll be around for a while. I don't think we have ever tried to be all things to all people, nor do we view ourselves as being in competition with any other forum or medium. We just try to provide a service to others, while providing a sense of community that extends beyond the electrons flowing around the worldwide web. As long as that remains possible and there's enough money in the cookie jar to keep the server plugged in, I'd imagine we'll try to keep the lights on.

 

This is kind of an interesting topic. Not only does it relate to BMWST, but it relates to everything we do in terms of communicating with one another electronically. It's gonna change, but I think the "old" technologies like discussion boards, will find a way to remain relevant.

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I agree about boards like this being more satisfactory for detailed discussion. I am active on a couple of them and a moderator on one. I find it a much more satisfying form of interaction than broadcasting tidbits to a wide audience of "friends" ala FaceBook or Twitter. I have accounts on both of those. I never look at Twitter, and I mostly look at Facebook, when someone tells me there is something there specifically targeted at me, a photo or message.

 

It is good to hear that we are attracting new members. There is a certain critical mass required for a board like this. If there is not much new, people stop looking at it, then there is even less new, and eventually it will cease to be viable. I don't really see that happening here, and I am glad of it.

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I hate to make a wave here but, I refrain from some posts for fear of crossing that invisible line into politics. I got a good and INTERESTING education on the federal budget it was, to me, "economics"(wink, wink). I don't do facebook and won't waste my time with twitter. So there are few opportunities to hear the views of intelligent people from varied backgrounds sharing their thoughts in a civilized way. Talking heads on the news or radio are getting tedious. Now about motorcycles.... :)

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I never twitted or face booked, am I missing something?

 

I don't think you are missing much, but clearly we are in a minority. They are taking over the world. It couldn't have anything to do with age. :( Some might claim that the young demographic of Twitter and Facebook is because of the slow adoption of new technology by older people. On the contrary, I think Twitter and Facebook appeal to a lot of people who are not very technologically literate. I have always been quick to adopt new technologies and toys. I just don't find that Tw and FB do anything that I want to do.

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It is good to hear that we are attracting new members. There is a certain critical mass required for a board like this. If there is not much new, people stop looking at it, then there is even less new, and eventually it will cease to be viable. I don't really see that happening here, and I am glad of it.

 

There was a time when we got a report on the number of members who posted over the past month. I don't see that anymore, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place. We have just shy of 21,000 authorized users, but many of those folks are inactive or check in infrequently. Of those who register, some don't stick around--a certain number are spammers, who move on once they've been banned; others register just to use the classifieds; and some figure out that there's not a lot here to interest them.

 

The ten years-plus we've been in existence is pretty substantial, in terms of a web presence. I'm not predicting it'll be forever, but I think there's quite a bit more life left in ol' BMWST.

 

 

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Amen. I have never had the slightest interest in Twitter, and have used Facebook only grudgingly. Google+ immediately clicked.

 

I never twitted or face booked, am I missing something?

 

I don't think you are missing much, but clearly we are in a minority. They are taking over the world. It couldn't have anything to do with age. :( Some might claim that the young demographic of Twitter and Facebook is because of the slow adoption of new technology by older people. On the contrary, I think Twitter and Facebook appeal to a lot of people who are not very technologically literate. I have always been quick to adopt new technologies and toys. I just don't find that Tw and FB do anything that I want to do.

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I don't make the final decisions here, but I suspect we'll be around for a while. I don't think we have ever tried to be all things to all people, nor do we view ourselves as being in competition with any other forum or medium. We just try to provide a service to others, while providing a sense of community that extends beyond the electrons flowing around the worldwide web. As long as that remains possible and there's enough money in the cookie jar to keep the server plugged in, I'd imagine we'll try to keep the lights on.

I think things (products, services) exist as long as they provide value to a constituency. Once that value is gone or not worth the investment (either $ or participation) the thing disappears.

 

The value vs cost ratio is personal & dependent on the individual. Sometimes I can go months without checking in because other things in life consume the time I might otherwise spend checking in here - the cost of participating went up. Other times I'll be here several times a day as I find the topics engaging or I'm looking for something specific (like help on a route or technical assistance for my bike or farkles) - the value went up. That dynamic though is part of what makes it more community then reference library.

 

One of the things in this forum's favor is BMW's lack of interest in addressing final drive issues :rofl: Seriously though, having problems or solutions to draw people in helps keep the place alive. Having new models of bikes helps bring new people in (or back). Both of those are things that BMW provides for us & the experience basis of folks here in providing solutions to the problems BMW creates the community with a purpose.

 

Otherwise we'd have to be on some forum discussing which model bike looks best in front of the bar....and talking about massive bar rides that take, you know, like an hour man to get to :grin:

 

Besides, when all else fails, we always have oil to talk about.

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beemerman2k

I think I have been on this site everyday for YEARS! I'd be hard pressed to remember a day gone by when I did not log into this web forum. I don't comment everyday, but I checkin on a daily basis.

 

Long time addict I suppose :smirk:

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I never twitted or face booked, am I missing something?

 

Facebook (and potentially Google+) are what the net was created for, you really are missing a lot. Is there a lot of rubbish? Sure, but you don't have to read it. I've been put back in touch with people from all phases of my life and all over the world, I thoroughly enjoy those interactions. There are plenty of venues on FB for serious in depth discussion, links, groups, pages etc and with a little moderation by their owners (just like here) they can avoid the spurious stuff.

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I don't see the format of threaded discussions dying out any time soon. The open question is whether any particular forum-based site (like this one) can continue to draw a critical mass of interest when compared to general-purpose sites like Facebook. If someone's interested in riding, why should he go to bmwsporttouring.com instead of talking bikes where he's already talking about other things?

 

The sites I've seen suffer most have been virtual, general community sites where there's no good answer to that question. On the other hand, we have a rather niche focus, reinforced by the quality of discussion about riding rather than "other topics". The other glue that's kept this community together is the in-person interaction: riding and eating and wrenching together.

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beemerman2k

I think the other factor that has served us all is the demographic here. We're all a more mature, seasoned, educated (whether formally or not, doesn't matter) people. Although it isn't always reflected in our posts, I think there is a certain level of respect being shared here simply because we are all aware that each of us has made our own way and paid our own dues. In fact, some of us have managed to do quite well for themselves -- Bob Palin! Woo, sorry, that's quite a cough I have there :grin:

 

Anyhow, when ever I am here, I feel like I am in a community of like minded people, and that's something not even Facebook can offer me.

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Yes, the seasoned demographic also plays a role. As I recall, forums do tend to skew older than other sites where Bob's activity contributes to raising the average age.

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I think board participation is just fine, notwithstanding seasonal fluctuations.

I can tell you this, in the unlikely event that this DB closes up some day, a big part of my life, - and I suspect others feel the same way -, will be lost.

The collective community of this DB is not going to let that happen, am I right?

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I'll say it. Yes, this Forum is dying, albeit in a natural and predictable way. All things have a life cycle, and it isn't any different in BMWST land. Consider the life cycle of an organization, product or a business. Pick your favorite biz theory, but it usually goes like this:

c4-10fig2.gif

 

Barring substantial reinvention, we will cease to be not too far after the decline stage. The fact that the question was asked is ample evidence that we are well into our maturity. The hair under our helmets is most decidedly gray.

 

That's ok. What Cary started, David grew, and Les and Jaime now nurture. The Forum format fits like a well worn Russell saddle, and I suspect it'll be a long time before going quietly into the night. But go we will.

 

 

 

 

 

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""That's ok. What Cary started, David grew, and Les and Jaime now nurture. The Forum format fits like a well worn Russell saddle, and I suspect it'll be a long time before going quietly into the night. But go we will.""

 

Yes, but it will be the bonding friendships and the sense of family ties that will keep us all together.

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I think board participation is just fine, notwithstanding seasonal fluctuations.

I can tell you this, in the unlikely event that this DB closes up some day, a big part of my life, - and I suspect others feel the same way -, will be lost.

The collective community of this DB is not going to let that happen, am I right?

 

;)

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I never twitted or face booked, am I missing something?

 

Congratulations, you're in a select group that includes me (and no one else). :wave:

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bakerzdosen

Look: Here's my slightly biased 2¢:

 

The board isn't going anywhere.

 

You'll notice that we've tried to keep things motorcycle focused over the years. That means that we've tried to keep things politics free (or more recently push anything that would create strife over to more appropriate forums such as Facebook or Twitter.) Things like that don't belong here. Yeah, not every sentence on this board needs to be about motorcycling, but it should have a motorcycle focus - at least on some level.

 

We have a sense of community here, and that works to all of our benefit. I'm not sure that you can replicate that on FB or Google+ or whatever. I know for sure that I wouldn't be friends with a lot of you (on FB or otherwise) without this board. It has brought a lot of people from very disparate lives and situations together - and that's a good thing.

 

If I personally was planning on this site dying, I wouldn't have gone through the hassle of upgrading to a new server recently.

 

However, I'm OK if this site eventually dies. But it won't die until something better fulfills its purpose. Will that be Google+ with its circles? I doubt it, but it's possible. I'm usually VERY opposed to change, but change does nonetheless happen.

 

Look, if you go to the "who is online" page, you'll see that traffic to this site is holding steady - meaning, we're not growing too much nor are we shrinking. So maybe we're at the apex or peak of our lifecycle. I dunno.

 

Regardless, I'm not a complete technical moron, but I don't profess to know everything. But I still don't foresee anything taking the place of bmwst.com. At least not yet.

 

Edit: Also, keep in mind that if Les was trying to make money from the site, things would be very different...

Edited by bakerzdosen
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Will that be Google+ with its circles? I doubt it, but it's possible.
I just created a BMWST G+ Circle, but circles appear to be personal not universal at this point so that wouldn't be a replacement.

 

I hope this site doesn't die, it attracts mostly people I like and have a lot in common with.

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We have a sense of community here, and that works to all of our benefit. I'm not sure that you can replicate that on FB or Google+ or whatever. I know for sure that I wouldn't be friends with a lot of you (on FB or otherwise) without this board. It has brought a lot of people from very disparate lives and situations together - and that's a good thing.

 

Those are sites that try to cater to everyone and everything. It's hard to imagine this site growing on Facebook, and I have yet to see what Google+ offers, other than some simplification of things while adding yet another place to look. (Man, do we need FriendFeed more than ever.) It's hard to imagine how this site would've grown past Cary's original site under Facebook. After all, once the 1150 came out, someone would've just created a new FB group. Or, people who were fed up with talk of maintaining R1100RTs might have decided to set up their own groups to discuss riding them. Or showing off accessories. It's incredibly easy to splinter on Facebook or other commodity forum sites.

 

The other thing that I think has been done so well here is the failure to try to specialize each and every forum. I'm still not convinced that we needed a trailering forum, but outside of the seasonal Un forums, it's nice and simple to find one's way around here. Things aren't lost in an array of geographically-divided or model-specific forums. (Though I will have to say that my failure to peruse the non-R/K forum meant that I missed the entire store of Sharon's R26 restoration. All of a sudden, the photos showed up on Facebook, and I figured, "Wow, bought an old bike.")

 

A lot of things have conspired here that serve to help this place long outlive its original purpose, and it's done that pretty well. I think the fact that there are a number of successful target social networks out there is indicative of the fact that no one site can be everything to everybody. There's no reason to believe this place has to die simply because there are other ways to communicate. (Plus, each upgrade seems to bring more integration between this place and the rest of the world.)

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Jake has a good graph there, and it tells an important story. But there are no time limits on the phases, or stages.

I think the board is in the maturity stage, and it may stay there for 30 year.

dc

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John Ranalletta
You'll notice that we've tried to keep things motorcycle focused over the years. That means that we've tried to keep things politics free (or more recently push anything that would create strife over to more appropriate forums such as Facebook or Twitter.) Things like that don't belong here. Yeah, not every sentence on this board needs to be about motorcycling, but it should have a motorcycle focus - at least on some level.
Well stated.

 

However, unless new blood comes in sufficient numbers, the existing members' waning interest in motorcyles and riding means it the board will become a social site with a motorcycle bias that can be accomplished on FB or a Yahoo forum just as easily.

 

I can think of at least 20 early BMWST'rs who were rabid riders 10 years ago who still have a bike in the garage they ride occasionally. Hell, they probably forgot how to adjust the valves because their mileage doesn't require valve adjustment and they're into changing oil every 5k miles or three years.

 

More riders are even taking cages and trailers to UNs.

 

Besides, who needs to read another oil thread?

Edited by JohnRan
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.... Pick your favorite biz theory, but it usually goes like this:

c4-10fig2.gif

 

Barring substantial reinvention, we will cease to be not too far after the decline stage. The fact that the question was asked is ample evidence that we are well into our maturity. The hair under our helmets is most decidedly gray......

 

 

 

By definition, wouldn't all BMW motorcycle forums START at the maturity stage? :)

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People have been predicting the end of BMW motorcycle production for years.

"Old man's bike", funny looking, too slow, ugsly, too expensive, demographics of buyers skewed towards dead, etc.

 

Sales have increased recntly, new models are high tech wonderbikes, and innovations continue.

They aren't your father's beemer, but they are selling.

 

Until BMW stops making bikes and people can communicate telepathically, there will be a forum.

 

As Twain said, "Rumors of my death..."

Best wishes.

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John Ranalletta
:rofl: Good one, JohnRan.

 

I am definitely in the maturity stage :grin:

The medical term is "chest 'n drawers" disease. That's when your chest slips (unnoticed 'til it's too late) into your drawers.
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I do not know where we are in the life cycle of this forum. What I do know is that I really miss the rich contributions of some members who were previously high frequency posters and I seldom or never see their presence now. As you can see by my post count, I am an infrequent poster but I do review the active topics almost every day.

 

I feel a little guilty that I have gained so much valuable knowledge from this forum and have contributed relatively little to the technical or intellectual content. I joined the forum to increase the enjoyment of owning and riding my current motorcycle and what a great decision that has been. What I didn't expect when I joined was all the peripheral benefit. I have made a great many decisions, totally unrelated to motorcycling, based on excellent advice and knowledge posted on this forum.

 

There are so many fine thinkers here. It seems hard to believe we have been brought together by a motorcycle marque that we take such pleasure in exposing its flaws :-) I'll probably be lurking as long as I can still get my leg over the saddle and if I think I can add something of value to a discussion, I will.

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I'll never learn how to adjust the valves on my oil head on Facebook, or sync the throttle bodies, or what type of oil to use, or what is the best tire out there, or well you get it :)

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and I suspect it'll be a long time before going quietly into the night. But go we will.

 

 

jAKE, mY mAN...i go quietly in the night if I do it on the rim instead of the full on water attack...and that FLUSH -- well , you know how loud that can be...

 

8^)

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My local club is going through similar throes. I think in large part it is because a very vocal minority of non-riders and non-riding folks has siezed the reins of that organization.

 

There may be similar things said about this forum.

 

If there is to remain a vibrant community (in both my examples) then I think the membership should seek more events for the active participation of the interest instead of allowing them to become social functions that some people ride motorcycles to.

 

Shawn and I have done that with the BRR events and also with the UN Rally. They are definitely social events, but they are far more about the riding than they are the sitting around the hotel.

 

I am also taking that step in my local club, but it's not so easy here as there are no elected terms around the board.

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DavidEBSmith

The same question has been getting asked on the Internet BMW Riders and LD Riders mail lists. Especially since they use the quaint old format of "e-mail" - and pure text "e-mail" at that. On IBMWR, the volume is lower, many of the old timers have disappeared, but it's hanging on. LDRiders, despite a bunch of discussion board-format sites covering the same subject matter, is going gangbusters.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, there's been for years a private mail list for IBR finishers that's always been very low volume, and there's now a private IBR Finishers group on Facebook that's booming in volume, considering the limited number of members.

 

What does it all mean? IBMWR suffers in contrast to a DB because when somebody asks a technical question, it's much easier to post a picture of the problem than it is to describe it in words. LDRiders is platform-agnostic because a good part of the content is dick-waving and banter and that's easy in any format. The IBDone mail list and the IBR Finishers FB group both work because they're low-volume filters that allow a small group of users to keep in touch with each other. If the platform serves the needs of the users, it will succeed; if something else serves the needs better, it won't.

 

The other thing to consider in the life cycle of this DB is that the members change, but much of the content stays the same. The oil discussion has almost become a joke, but it's a great example. I've been on the IBMWR list for 14 years and this DB for like 10 years, and every 3 months someone asks "what's the best oil to use in my BMW?" Which is an important question for that person who doesn't know the answer, but chances are, neither the question nor any of the answers will provide me with any new information that I need to know. And there is a fatigue factor in answering the same questions all the time - I finally put together web pages on my fuel cell and broken drive shaft and tieing down an RT to make it easy to answer those repeated questions. A forum needs to bring in new members, or have old members have new problems or new interests, to avoid stagnation. If this DB was still BMWRT.com, aimed at RTs, and not BMWSportTouring.com, I think it would be in worse shape.

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I never twitted or face booked, am I missing something?
In short...no.
I don't suppose you've actually tried them?
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I never twitted or face booked, am I missing something?
In short...no.
I don't suppose you've actually tried them?

 

Ignorance is bliss, my friend, and I'm enjoying my bliss very much, thank you :smile:

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yabadabapal

My thrill seeking on the internet has always been fulfilled by going to BMWST. It is the only forum that I attend and infrequently lately because of my work schedule. But I know for a fact that anytime I have ever been uncertain or unsure about something, I can go to BMWST and get the help I need to figure it out one way or another.

I spend less and less time on the internet. I don't find it thrilling as when it first began, and I don't want or even have 600 friends I want to connect to. But BMWST is a rare bird of significantly intelligent and kind people. That works for me.

 

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I never twitted or face booked, am I missing something?

 

You may have missed when Clarrisa, the 17 year old high school senior from Burlington Vermont, walked from the bathroom to the kitchen when her toasting muffin popped up. :rofl:

 

LUDDITES UNITE!!!!!!!

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Years ago someone wrote that the home computer was a solution in search of a problem. The internet is a really nice solution, but I don't think facebook solves any of my problems. BMWST, wikipedia, IMDB, and some others are great for my trivia and socialization fixes; and I keep up sporadic e-mail correspondence with friends.

 

Facebook doesn't work for me. I'd envisioned a way to keep up with what my relatives were doing, but it doesn't work that way. "I'm enjoying a beautiful sunset and a glass of wine" doesn't tell me that my sister-in-law has been in Europe for a week and I should have been checking on my Mother-in-law during her absence. Also, even if the post had been informative, it would have come too late for me to make any plans around it. I also get a lot of what I'm fixing for supper posts and comments on sports or political news articles I haven't read. Most of the entries are one side of conversations that mean nothing to me.

 

----

 

 

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beemerman2k

I'm with Quinn on this one, I do a quick check of my Facebook page on a daily basis, just to see if anything important has been posted, but I rarely post anything over there. It's best feature is it's weakness in my view; you have all these people from different walks of life, yet oftentimes I only want to post something of relevance to a small portion of that crowd. As it is, 99% of the material I see up there is a complete waste of time -- "if you agree with this, post this on your status" :rolleyes:

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There is a NYTimes article about the waning participation in forums like this one. They are apparently being killed my FaceBook and Twitter. The author mourns their loss.

 

I have the feeling that the number-of-posts/per-unit-time is declining here as well. Am I correct? There seem to be fewer new topics than there were a few years ago.

 

 

It is summer you know :/

 

These internet systems are what the members make them.

 

For me the board has proven to be a way to meet and get to know folks and fb is a way to stay in closer touch with folks I've come to know through get togethers.

 

When I first got on this board there were 500 or 1000 people here. It still feels like that because only a small percentage of people are doing the talking/writing.

 

The characters may have changed on this board somewhat, but that just means there is an opportunity to meet some more great peeps.

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markgoodrich

It's not just BMWST that appears (or is) to be shrinking, it's a net-wide phenomenon. I personally think it's primarily due to the rise of Facebook.

 

The OP's linked article is well worth reading, and, I think, explains the situation very well.

 

One particular paragraph was especially pertinent:

 

"Lori Leibovich, the founder of Kvetch, the message board of which the fertility board was a part, told me she thought message boards were becoming “almost quaint, which I find sort of sad.” She likened boards like Kvetch to “group therapy,” adding that “conversations ’stay in the room’ and you’re invested in the individuals in the group. Social networks are about broadcasting. More about your persona than it is about you as a person.”

 

The same phenomenon under discussion here, the reduction of usage, is occurring with blogs; there's an online article somewhere today describing the quick migration of bloggers to the new Google+.

 

Things change. I, too, notice and lament the absence of many, and I know many have migrated to Facebook. I have no animus towards Facebook, but it's just too cluttered, too diffuse, at least for now, for me to return.

 

 

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Mobile apps.... That's what's also hurting message boards...

 

I can interact with FB/Twitter/LinkedIn with my smart phone. There are millions that do the same. If I have a few minutes, out comes the smart phone and voila... Need to post a picture? No problem. Trying to 'serf' BMWST from a phone is a PITA. Post a quick ride tale to BMWST? Take the picture. Upload it to Smugmug. Try 3-4 times crafting a BMWST message on a very small screen. Try linking in my photo.... YUK...So I gave up. Now here's the part that is hurting online board forums. By the end of the day, I've gotten my fill of checking social media and I no longer care to 'serf' any more boards (and unfortunately, BMWST falls into that category).

 

For our local BMW club, we set up a very nice message board several years ago. Could never get much interest in it (near begging people to check the board for information, message, etc.) So I suggested we try a FB approach. Participation exploded! Lots of pictures (happening real time from mobile phones with 'good enough' cameras').

 

My point... It's as much about the 'portability' of the medium as it is the content of the discussions. Make it easy to use everywhere, not just at my desk.

 

Regards,

 

Mike O

 

 

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