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#746671 - 12/12/11 11:16 AM Introduction and O2 Question  
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roger 04 rt Online
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roger 04 rt  Online
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In August I bought a 2004 R1150RT and for the past several months I've been reading this great Board. It has helped me to do all the regular service required at about 30,000 miles, including a CAM tensioner upgrade to the left side. The summary of what I've been doing is here at, 04 RT Summary. The only thing I haven't tackled is the Spline Lube but will in a couple months. The bike runs great. Thanks to many on this forum and to your great archive.

In the meantime, I am experimenting with a few things. One is a Wideband O2 Project that I've started writing about. My goal is to richen both Open and Closed Loop mixtures a bit to make the bike as strong running hot as it does when cold, before the O2 sensor allows Closed Loop.

Moderator Edit: Please see Ad in Classifieds

I hope to have the chance to add to this Forum.

Thanks,
Roger

#746679 - 12/12/11 12:04 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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ednowicki Offline
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I know I'm not answering your question but this will take you a long way without alot of cost or effort.

Ed


Ed

03 1150RT
04 1150R
#746682 - 12/12/11 12:22 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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dan cata Offline
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So you want to use this O2 sensor?



From what I see in there, it only has 2 wires, so it does not have the heating element in it. That one went down on my car and after replacement, the fuel mileage was better. Are you sure you want to do this?

Why don't you mount a 3.5 bar fuel pressure regulator, like I did? You will really feel the improvement then wink

Dan.

#746686 - 12/12/11 12:47 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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dirtrider Offline
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Morning Roger

Unfortunately the output waveform from a wide band 02 sensor is totally different than the standard narrow band 02 output so there is just no way your current Motronic fueling computer can in any way use a wide band 02's output.

In a nutshell the current narrow band 02 works more like a switch than a real sensor. The wide band has a more linear output that your current fueling computer will just ignore after a very short time in operation.

Your current Motronic needs an 02 input that toggles across .5 volts as kind of a yes/no signal. So if it sees the input signal from a wide band it will just assume a defective 02 sensor.

If it was an easy thing to fool the older narrow band fueling computers into using a wide band sensor's output the internet would be full of such devices to update older fuel injection systems.

If you want your 04 1500RT to run a bit richer just unplug your stock 02 sensor as that will force open loop operation & take away the stock 02 control. Open loop uses the base fueling map trimmed by input from the other engine sensor inputs (but no 02 sensor control)

Or if you want some control over the fueling richness either add a Techlusion fuel controller or add a Power Commander.

The Techlusion works in conjunction with your present narrow band 02 sensor then spoofs the 02 signal when it needs to add extra fuel.

The Power Commander needs the stock narrow band 02 disconnected to operate. You can add a wide band to the Power Commander but it doesn't use the wide band to fuel to, it just uses the wide band as a input device to initially learn from.


D.R. ___
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#746709 - 12/12/11 03:09 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: dirtrider]  
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roger 04 rt Online
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Originally Posted By: dan cata
So you want to use this O2 sensor?


From what I see in there, it only has 2 wires, so it does not have the heating element in it. That one went down on my car and after replacement, the fuel mileage was better. Are you sure you want to do this?

Why don't you mount a 3.5 bar fuel pressure regulator, like I did? You will really feel the improvement then wink

Dan.


Dan, That is the unit. The Bosch Wideband with that is 4/5 wire and plugs into the LC-1.

The LC-1 has a wideband output AND a simulated-programmable Narrow Band output. In order to make use of the Narrow output, I need to attach a connector like the one on the orignial Narrow Band O2.

Boosting the pressure or bigger injector nozzles would richen the Open Loop mixture but once the bike goes closed loop, which it does half or more of the time, the AFR goes back to stoichiometric about 14.1:1 for the E10 fuel we get up here.

I have used a BoosterPlug to slightly enrichen the Open Loop mixture. It is the Closed Loop mixture I'm looking to slightly alter.

Originally Posted By: ednowicki
I know I'm not answering your question but this will take you a long way without alot of cost or effort.

Ed


Ed, Thanks. I've studied the Techlusion products and they're not what I'm looking for. I think the Motronic is pretty good, just a bit lean in Closed Loop mode.

The LC-1 has a Narrow Band output and I'll program Lambda (AFR) down from 1.0 in small steps. This way I'll have control over the closed loop fueling ratio but still keep all the functions of the Motronic intact.

The BoosterPlug is interesting. It only affects Open Loop modes but its 6% enrichment just about matches the 4% enleanment of E10 fuel. So I think Open Loop is good just now.


Originally Posted By: dirtrider
Morning Roger

Unfortunately the output waveform from a wide band 02 sensor is totally different than the standard narrow band 02 output so there is just no way your current Motronic fueling computer can in any way use a wide band 02's output.

In a nutshell the current narrow band 02 works more like a switch than a real sensor. The wide band has a more linear output that your current fueling computer will just ignore after a very short time in operation.

Your current Motronic needs an 02 input that toggles across .5 volts as kind of a yes/no signal. So if it sees the input signal from a wide band it will just assume a defective 02 sensor.

If it was an easy thing to fool the older narrow band fueling computers into using a wide band sensor's output the internet would be full of such devices to update older fuel injection systems.

If you want your 04 1500RT to run a bit richer just unplug your stock 02 sensor as that will force open loop operation & take away the stock 02 control. Open loop uses the base fueling map trimmed by input from the other engine sensor inputs (but no 02 sensor control)

Or if you want some control over the fueling richness either add a Techlusion fuel controller or add a Power Commander.

The Techlusion works in conjunction with your present narrow band 02 sensor then spoofs the 02 signal when it needs to add extra fuel.

The Power Commander needs the stock narrow band 02 disconnected to operate. You can add a wide band to the Power Commander but it doesn't use the wide band to fuel to, it just uses the wide band as a input device to initially learn from.


Good Morning D.R,

There are two outputs from an LC-1:

1) programmable Narrow Band output, sharp transition 0V to 1V, that can replace the stock Narrow Band O2. I need a connector to attach to this wire to plug into the Motronic. If worse comes to worse, I'll cut the connector off my good O2. This has been used on Motorcycles before. Zeitronix also makes a unit I considered, the ZT-3.

2) wide band linear output 0v = 7.35:1 AFr, 5V = 22.39:1. This will drive a small AFR gauge I plan to mount at least temporarily.

The Techlusion boxes are reasonable but affect the Open Loop mode more than closed. And it keeps the Narrow Band sensor so Closed Loop can only be Lambda=1 (14.7 AFR).

The Power Commander III USB is something I seriously considered. It uses the same Wideband Sensor as the LC-1 but adds fuel map modification capability that I'm not looking for yet. By taking control of the Closed Loop mode from the Motronic, it's a bit more invasive than I'd like. It interecepts the TPS, both Injectors and the O2 Sensor and Closed Loop.

One interesting thing I noted while playing with the PC III software, it starts Closed Loop AFR at 13.8:1 (Lambda=0.94) !! This is a big hint to all of us that the bikes run better with a Closed Loop fueling ratio nearer that number. I plan to start Lambda at 0.98 and work downward in 0.02 steps.

If you look toward the bottom of this page: R1150RT Open/Closed Loop Data, you can see how much of the time the bike runs Closed Loop, even going Closed-Loop-lean during acceleration!

I'm excited to see what dropping the Lambda with this sensor will do and appreciate everyone's support and interest. Below is a chart of one of the graphs from the above link.

RB



Last edited by roger 04 rt; 12/12/11 03:11 PM.
#746711 - 12/12/11 03:13 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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dan cata Offline
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Roger, as a side not, in the future, if you press Alt+Print Screen it will only take a screenshot of just your active window and not of all the comp screen, in case you don't want to share what programs were you running at that time or other info like that wink

Dan.

#746716 - 12/12/11 03:33 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: dan cata]  
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roger 04 rt Online
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roger 04 rt  Online
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Originally Posted By: dan cata
Roger, as a side not, in the future, if you press Alt+Print Screen it will only take a screenshot of just your active window and not of all the comp screen, in case you don't want to share what programs were you running at that time or other info like that wink

Dan.


Dan, Thanks. There's no easy way to make a JPEG from a spreadsheet that I know of. I used PrtSc. In the future I'll use Alt-PrtSc. Roger

#746719 - 12/12/11 03:46 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: dan cata]  
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dirtrider Offline
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Morning Roger

Keep in mind that the Motronic is a basic narrow band fueling computer so is set up to protect the catalytic converter above all else. (keep the fueling stoichiometric in closed loop)

My guess is if you try to drive it to a richer mixture it will assume a defective 02 sensor & quit looking at it then probably fuel to the open loop mapping.

I'm not sure how your add on LC-1 is going to handle the Motronic as far as keeping the 02 crossovers within the believable range. About anything can spoof a narrow band input but when the Motronic sees unexpected 02 response to it's fueling request it will only add so much fuel in a couple of enrichment steps before just going open loop.

I guess I don't understand the requirement to try to keep it in closed loop when you want richer anyhow. Just force it open loop then change the fueling to anything you want at any RPM/loading using a Power Commander.

The only place you really should have some closed loop control is at hot curb idle & then only if you want to maintain catalytic converter integrity.


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#746723 - 12/12/11 03:55 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: dirtrider]  
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roger 04 rt Online
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Originally Posted By: dirtrider
Morning Roger

Keep in mind that the Motronic is a basic narrow band fueling computer so is set up to protect the catalytic converter above all else. (keep the fueling stoichiometric in closed loop)

My guess is if you try to drive it to a richer mixture it will assume a defective 02 sensor & quit looking at it then probably fuel to the open loop mapping.

I'm not sure how your add on LC-1 is going to handle the Motronic as far as keeping the 02 crossovers within the believable range. About anything can spoof a narrow band input but when the Motronic sees unexpected 02 response to it's fueling request it will only add so much fuel in a couple of enrichment steps before just going open loop.

I guess I don't understand the requirement to try to keep it in closed loop when you want richer anyhow. Just force it open loop then change the fueling to anything you want at any RPM/loading using a Power Commander.

The only place you really should have some closed loop control is at hot curb idle & then only if you want to maintain catalytic converter integrity.


For the several percent I'm moving the CL ratio, the Motronic will see this as a usual O2 sensor behaving in the normal way (but I will have moved Lambda and the binary switch point you mentioned in a way that is invisible to the Motronic). I will double check this with the GS-911.

Your comment about Hot Curb Idle is interesting. I've ridden several times with my GS-911 and Computer datalogging info. The Motronic goes Closed loop more than half the time, including during acceleration, once the bike has warmed.

My reason for taking the minimalist approach is that I believe that BMW did a pretty good job designing this engine and its fueling. The difficulties came when the EPA mandated 14.7:1 and the 3-way converter, and then compounded the problem with e10 fuel during Open Loop which needs a richer fuel table to stay on par with pure-gas.

Anyway, I'm taking small steps, will try to stay as close to Lambda=1 as I can. It surprises me how much stronger these bikes are just before they warm up enough to enable Closed Loop.

Thanks very much for your interest and feedback, I really appreciate it. I haven't seen this done on an Oilhead or BMW before but have seen some results of the LC-1 on a Harley and have talked to the shop that did it. We shall see ...

Last edited by roger 04 rt; 12/12/11 03:58 PM.
#746728 - 12/12/11 04:32 PM Re: Introduction and O2 Question [Re: roger 04 rt]  
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dirtrider Offline
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Afternoon Roger

Obviously the BMW system is programmed to go into & stay in closed loop way more than at hot curb idle.

The reason I mention the hot idle closed loop is at most above idle & road load conditions even a slightly rich running system will run the cat. clean. At hot curb idle there just isn't much engine loading or exhaust heat to keep the converter fired up & hot enough to keep itself clean.

I think you are taking the correct path by installing a wide band fuel/air ratio meter but making it WAY more complicated than necessary by trying to shift the lambda point using a W/B 02 sensor & input spoofer.

Once you get your fuel/air meter installed & the fueling readings believable you should see that just disconnecting the 02 sensor & forcing open loop will get you pretty close to what you are looking for. Then if you still have a few sags in your fueling control just install a Techlusion or Power Commander & trim the fueling a bit closer to what you want.

I have installed quite a few Techlusion's over the years on a single spark BMW system & for the most part they work pretty good. As a rule the twin spark systems can handle the leaner narrow band control (if) all 4 spark plugs are working as intended. Lot of riders riding around with a weak stick coil & don't even know it.

I like the Power Commander better on systems that allow both spark & fuel control but on the BMW the Power Commander only allows fueling control so not a lot of gain from the Power Commander.

The BMW Motronic 2.4 system is still pretty crude in that it isn't a sequential injection system & controls both sides to only one lambda sensor.

On the Harley fuel injected system that is a different system with the newer ones using an Ion Sensing System as well as cylinder head temp input.

I really can't comment on that LC-1 system but if like other similar systems I have seen used on the early fuel injection systems the output is mostly ignored by the fueling computer after a time so the fueling computer goes open loop & the thing runs better so therefore people think the added system is fueling to closed loop & still making it run better.


D.R. ___
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