Voodoo Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 In the midst of the healthy discussion that we've been having recently about the real value of internet advice, it occurred to me that there were a bunch of older threads from this forum that many have never seen. Threads that IMHO, added tremendous value to the thought process of riding, and more importantly, riding well. So, I've gone back to some of the ones I've had bookmarked for a while and thought it would make sense to list them here for some of you that may have never gotten a chance to read them. There are many more, and I don't meant to imply be any means that these are the only important ones, so if you have a few that you keep marked to read and re-read when you have the time, please add them as well. I think these are a good start however. So, enjoy: Inattention, Attention, Duplication, Understanding Master Yoda's Riding Position A Few Words of Wisdom On Being Smooth Managing Panic Improving Lap Times Difference Between Street Riding and Track Riding Corner Entry Beginner's Mind Analysis of a Crash Riding School Comparo Missing Exit Points That's my current list. Please add your own noteworthy threads so we can keep learning how important it is to ride well. EDIT: I"m going to keep updating this list...so check back. New Entries: Counter Steering Hough vs. Parks (vs. "Ride Smart") 1 Link to comment
MachineJoe Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Dave, What a great way to bring us newbies (to the forum) up to speed(sorry 'bout the pun). I've been reading and reading over the past several months with great enthusiasm trying to get more out of riding than just the "heading straight down the road" type of ride. I need more and want more out of riding. Thanks for starting up this post. I'm sure many more great articles will follow. KUDO's to all those that have the riding experience and are able to share it with us here Link to comment
Jerry_75_Guy Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Dave, my following suggestion may already be what you have in mind, if so, do me the favor of deleteing my silly post here (I can be a bit obtuse at times), but how about this: If you're asking this in the form of a regular thread, I assume the continuing process of thread accumulation and 'sedimentation' will soon cover up these little pearls you've found once again. Here on the 'wrenchin'; oilheads' forum at the top, there is a permanent thread on alternate parts. On the IBA site there is a little 'archive of wisdom' that riders can look into. Is it possible for these threads you've collected, and others that come along and pass muster (I'll leave it to someone more knowledgeable and insightful to define that process), to be placed in a permanent 'open' thread or archive at the top of the 'ride well' forum? Link to comment
Voodoo Posted October 14, 2005 Author Share Posted October 14, 2005 Is it possible for these threads you've collected, and others that come along and pass muster (I'll leave it to someone more knowledgeable and insightful to define that process), to be placed in a permanent 'open' thread or archive at the top of the 'ride well' forum? No apologies needed, Jerry. What we do now is actually set some of the good ones as keepers so they don't expire with the rest of the threads. To find them, simply set the view default on your screen to all posts and page to the last few pages. Also, I intend to keep this thread sticky for a bit so hopefully others will add a few more good threads and we can accumulate that wisdom for a while. Link to comment
Corkus Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 I wanted to read each of the posts listed carefully before replying, but I'm happy to say I need A LOT more time. This list of posts contains too much wisdom to read quickly. I'll be spending hours reading and organizing this information for my riding, and who knows how long trying to put these ideas into practice. Man, that is cool! I hope this is the start of a successful new way of organizing Ride Well information. Wouldn't it be great if ALL the riding wisdom from this Discussion Board could be organized in one place? Here's a challenge to the riders on this board: unless you are experienced enough, trained enough and skilled enough to write a post like one of these, READ THEM!!! And put your riding under the microscope. Put these ideas into practice. Improve. Now there are no excuses. We can't say any longer that we don't know where to start. I'm jazzed. Thanks Moderators. Link to comment
Nimzomitch Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Hi - brand new to the forum, and thought this would be some interesting reading... "Weighting the Pegs" - I can't seem to view this one. Is it still around? I already set me view options to view all posts... Link to comment
Voodoo Posted October 28, 2005 Author Share Posted October 28, 2005 Hi - brand new to the forum, and thought this would be some interesting reading... "Weighting the Pegs" - I can't seem to view this one. Is it still around? I already set me view options to view all posts... Mitch, it seems that one may have expired since I posted the link. Let me check it out. Link to comment
lithoman Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 sweeeeet!!! nice job voodoo so much info, so little time Link to comment
Voodoo Posted January 17, 2006 Author Share Posted January 17, 2006 This one has developed into some pretty interesting reading. I'm going to add it to the list at the top... Link to comment
Lawman Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Thanks.. I want to read them all..I saved this thread on my Home page favorites so I hope I can go to that and read them all as time allows.. Link to comment
rwehavnfunyet Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I'm back on a bike after 40 years - took the MSF course and started out on a ex500D9. Now that I'm looking for an ABS equipped sport-touring bike I realized that there may be slight modifications/improvements in the concepts of urgent stops and swerving that were introduceed in the MSF course. I've found the insights on this forum elucidating. So, have there been any studies on technique improvements to be used with ABS? Link to comment
loujack Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Wow - What a great assortment of riding well tips. I'd not seen these - and I look forward to trying out the elbow steering techniques and a few others. Ride well. Link to comment
MrJP Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 Just joined today, and this thread is a perfect example of why I thank that was an intelligent decision. Great Job. Great Forum. Makes me want that RT that much sooner. Link to comment
E30TECH Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 Just joined today, and this thread is a perfect example of why I thank that was an intelligent decision. Great Job. Great Forum. Makes me want that RT that much sooner. Thanks for bumping this post to the top. I'll have to bookmark it Link to comment
TWEETY BYRD Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 I SUGGEST YOU DONT BUY A BMW WIYH ELECTRIC ABS. BOB Link to comment
steve.foote Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 Voodoo, I'd like to submit the recent thread Hough vs. Parks ? (vs. "Ride Smart"?) . Ton's of excellent discussion. Link to comment
T__ Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I'm back on a bike after 40 years - took the MSF course and started out on a ex500D9. Now that I'm looking for an ABS equipped sport-touring bike I realized that there may be slight modifications/improvements in the concepts of urgent stops and swerving that were introduceed in the MSF course. I've found the insights on this forum elucidating. So, have there been any studies on technique improvements to be used with ABS? Rwehavnfunyet, a good friend of mine is motorcycle safety education instructor.. I asked him that very same question about mid summer last year & he said they haven’t altered their basic training procedures to encompass ABS braking.. I asked why & his response was the basic riding technique is the same as far as brake & throttle control is concerned.. I think they made some exceptions for linked brakes a few years ago when they came out as apparently they effected some the brake usage drills.. Twisty Link to comment
Horse Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 So, have there been any studies on technique improvements to be used with ABS? Couple of things may interest you. First I don't have a link for: The Institute for Vehicle Safety in Munich has come up with some significant findings in its investigation "Braking as the Cause of Fatal Accidents" by Dr. Alexander Sporner (MOTORRAD, Vol. 13, June 9, 2000): In most cases, incorrect braking is the reason for dropping the bike. In 93% of the cases analysed, a fall could have been avoided by ABS. 10% of all fatal motorcycling accidents could be avoided if ABS were a standard feature on all motorcycles. Second, from a UK bike mag TWO, features a journalist and Jamie Whitham, a racer of some repute: The bikes ... with ABS: Triumph Sprint ST / non ABS: Sprint ST with standard brakes. Man v ABS To give us some baseline figures Whit braked from an indicated 80mph (a genuine 75) to stationary on both bikes as hard as he could, first using both front & rear, then only front, only rear... and finally using engine braking alone. Test 1 - both brakes combined, 75mph to 0mph ABS 4.18 sec, 227 feet Non ABS 4.35 sec, 237 feet With the ABS the rear's making a big difference. When you're braking hard the ABS kicks in and reduces the braking force on the front, which pushes weight onto the back as the forks decompress. I was holding both brakes hard so the back would then be working to stop the bike even harder for the time before the front recovered grip. It almost see-sawed back and forth as the ABS reduced then increased the braking. On the non-ABS bike I lost this bit of extra braking from the rear. I concentrated on the front's grip while keeping pressure on the rear constant. Test 2 - Only using the front brake, 75mph to 0mph ABS 4.75 sec, 265 feet Non ABS 4.6 sec, 258 feet Once I had the bike settled with some braking force, I only had to concentrate on what the tyre was doing. I can feel when the tyre is about to lock and release the brakes slightly. The thing with the non-ABS bike is I could reach a constant, near the limit of traction, and keep it there. With ABS you jam it on and when it thinks its going to lock it releases, then brakes again, releases etc which loses time. Test 3 - Only using the rear brake, 75mph to 0mph ABS 8.15 sec, 435 feet Non ABS 7.8 sec, 409 feet It doesn't so matter if the rear wheel locks. A 5m front wheel skid is bad, with the rear it isn't.Using just the rear I simply braked until it locked, then backed off a bit. I could be a bit rougher than the front because I wasn't worried about it locking, but I beat the rear ABS for the same reasons I beat the front: constant braking rather than on/off ABS. Test 4 - Engine braking alone 28.8 sec, 905 feet I never thought I'd bloodie stop! Man v man v ABS - the Great Leveller Although James did beat the ABS on two of the three tests, the ABS won when both brakes were applied together. But can ABS bring an average Joe's braking to a level close to James's? Test 1 - James v John, 40mph to 0mph The first test simulates probably the most common scenario for hard braking... the low speed SMIDSY or jay walker, braking from street speeds. Test was performed in the wet. ABS James 2.25 sec, 71 feet ABS John 2.25 sec, 71 feet Non ABS James 2.28 sec, 71.9 feet Non ABS John 2.42 sec, 77.2 feet John: I simply put all my trust in the ABS - I was confident all I had to do was hit the brakes as hard as I could. With the non ABS bike I was terrified of locking the front and falling off... ~the ABS took away all the worry. James: On the 75 - 0 test I could find a constant point and hold the brake there to beat it, but on this test the ABS was working faster than that... it reached a maximum point faster than I could and because the speeds were slower and the distances shorter it made the crucial milliseconds count. Test 2 - James v John, 75mph to 55mph A simulated m/way scenario was tested: traffic braking hard and slows suddenly, but without coming to a stop ... again its wet. ABS James 1.04 sec, 102 feet ABS John 1.17 sec, 111 feet Non ABS James 1.1 sec, 104 feet Non ABS John 1.22 sec, 118 feet John: couldn't match James's times - 75mph [is very fast] when you want your right hand to grab as much a handful as possible. James, used to the extremes of racing, had the confidence to grab. He's also a bit a mad. Note the differences in James's times and distances between ABS & non ABS - only 2 feet and 0.06secs, but that could be the difference between hitting a car or avoiding it. The 7 foot difference in John's slowing distances is more significant - he'd hit the car much harder. Conclusion There's one major flaw in these tests: both riders were settled, comfortable, and ready to brake hard come an emergency - they knew what was about to happen. Real life aint like that, and that's where ABS can become a life saver. As James says... the most dangerous part of e-braking is the initial bite... its the point you're most likely to lock up & crash. He may have been able to out perform ABS on a few occasions but given adrenalin, panic, and unforeseen circumstances the outcome could've been different. The test does show, however, that an average rider's braking ability is enhanced by ABS as John did stop faster in both tests. James: I was really impressed with Triumph's ABS system... but we were braking on a smooth, flat surface in a straight line. Add in a few bumps and ABS does start to show its limitations. I'd want a system that isn't there until I really need it. Then it would be a lifesaver. John: In the dry I still wouldn't want it, but this test has highlighted the reasons for having it in the wet. It undoubtedly helped me stop quicker. Just a few feet can make a huge difference in an emergency situation. Link to comment
TryingToLearn Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 None of the links (except for the Master Yoda's Riding Position) are working. Sad :-( Link to comment
Les is more Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 The links in the 1st post have been repaired. Link to comment
TryingToLearn Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 Much appreciated, thank you! Link to comment
Bologna Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Thank you for these links! Link to comment
mistercindy Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Thank you very much for posting these threads. I've read two that I can already tell will change my riding. The advice to use your elbows for steering in the "corner entry" thread, and the sense of balance after reading the advice in the "Yoda's riding position" thread. Great stuff. Link to comment
pmdave Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 What a great collection! I've been remiss in not hanging with the forum. Hopefully I'll be able to spend more time here. pmdave Link to comment
vizhip Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 This is a great collection of discussions on riding bikes... I have had similar discussions with class mates, trainers and co-workers, but somehow we never got quite as detailed as what is found here... even in the safety course... I kind of wish that I had found this place before I took the course, then maybe I would have gotten a lot more out of it, but then, I am glad I FOUND this place, because the wisdom here really opens your eyes and helps make you a better rider... Link to comment
yabadabapal Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Thank you thank you thank you. This is great and for beginners like me it is critically important. Link to comment
yabadabapal Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 I would really appreciate any list of books that are related to this subject. Thanks Link to comment
Mighty Manfred Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I've read several, own this one: http://www.amazon.com/Riding-Zone-Ken-Condon/dp/1884313760 which I've read twice and consider one of the best books on how to ride safely and confidently - and survive. Link to comment
motorman587 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Here are two more if nobody posted these, http://www.webbikeworld.com/books/sp-riding-techniques.htm or this one, http://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Motorcycling-Ultimate-Guide-Riding/dp/1933958359 Link to comment
motorman587 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 My $.02 on ABS brakes. I would never ride a motorcycle without it. Just me, I am one of those over the years believes that it "will" happen to me, no matter how great of rider I think I am. ABS is there just in case the rider miss read the road condition that he\she was riding over at the time they applied their brakes. Different road surfaces vs. different brake pressure and in a panic your brain/eyes can not process all that information quick enough. I have been to many, many crashes where the rider panic and over pressured the brakes causing a lock up and crash. So my point is, if you have ABS forget that you have it and practice normal hard braking. Do know what the motorcycle does when ABS mode is kicked in. Practice Practice!!!! John Link to comment
robert85 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Think it's more dangerous to ride without, due to the fatigue after prolonged exposure to noise. A tired rider is a poor rider. Can't remember the source now, but there's a test in a magazine somewhere that proved that there is _no_ helmet available that provides sufficient noise protection in itself at 40mph pluss. Ear plugs relieves the rider of the discomfort of the constant noise. It also protects the ear from the long term damage associated with that exposure! This is no little concern, hearing damages are very serious illnesses. The numbers of people totally disabled by hearing damage is huge. I do a bit of sound engineering, using a sound pressure level meter to keep things in the safe area. Can usually guess the dB level fairly accurate now. Got a good idea of what sort of pressure 90 deciBels are, the safe level limit for 8 hours of exposure to sound. .. and 95db for 4 hours, 100db for 2 hours, and so on. An unsilenced motorcycle is about 110dB(according to the litterature, haven't tried!), which is damaging after 30 minutes of daily exposure! Even with plugs, those 90 dB's can easily be pushed on the motorbike. Particullarly if the speed is high, headwind is strong or the helmet/head gaps makes a lot of turbulence. This varies a lot with the helmet/rider fit. The most prominent noise comes from the gaps between the neck and the helmet, probably especially so for those gaps making a tube of air going up into the helmet. Try covering different spots on the base of the helmet with one of your hands while riding. The noise will almost disappear when you find the points of turbulence. Had some success patching these spots with duct tape. Would probably work better with a flexible material like neoprene. There's neck warmer tubes available that totally fills the gap around the bottom liner of the helmet. Anyone got any experiences with these regarding noise? Just have to say this as an audio geek: Take care of your ears! All hearing damage is accumulative and nonreversible. Link to comment
Kathy R Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Robert85, Welcome to the board Link to comment
Miriam Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 @Voodoo Wow, what a time that was when Master Yoda was still holding court. I learned a lot from him and just love they way he approaches motorcycling and his respect towards everyone esp. those wanting to learn. He made quite an impression on me. Also the others, we've had some great discussions. Only DB ever I actually felt proud to be a part of. Most are awfull, all about ego, not about learning. Thanks you guys! Link to comment
Paul Mihalka Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Miriam, long time no read! Welcome back! Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Link to comment
tallman Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Big HI, Miriam. Happy holidays. Jungle Jim/ Voodoo sounds like a movie plot. I hope the roads are as much fun as ever for you. Link to comment
brady Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 This is one of my favorite articles an riding. It is by Nick Ienatsch who has several book on riding but this sums it all very nicely. http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/ 1 Link to comment
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