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#761077 - 02/21/12 07:31 PM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: KDeline]
Huzband Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 7415
Loc: Cowford, Fl.
Originally Posted By: KDeline
Originally Posted By: MT Wallet
Originally Posted By: moshe_levy
Or, perhaps, on a lucid understanding of it!

-MKL

Uh, No it's not. I know you'd like to think it is but it's bashing the bible and by extension Christians and Jews who beleive in it. No ifs, ands or buts.


I call it asking hard hitting questions that are not being answered. Wonder why?


Most of the answers lie within, you just have to study a bit. Quite a bit. The answers that aren't laid out in black, white, or red, are where faith comes in.
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'07 R12GSA (Moose)
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#761086 - 02/21/12 08:42 PM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: DaveTheAffable]
moshe_levy Offline
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Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 3727
Loc: NJ - God Help Me
Danny, I can't speak for anyone but myself. I have no problem with anyone's faith so long as it is not imposed on me and so long as a (very) healthy separation between church and state is maintained. That's my personal view shaped by my experiences, as one who has had more than his share of discrimination growing up. I'm not bashing anything - actually, all I asked of people of any thought regardless of faith is to accept all of it - warts and all. There are warts. That's history - it's fact. The OP asked why some people are weary of religious displays. I answered for myself, simply: history.

It's important to understand, the OP is obviously a faithful person who believes in his religion. I respect that. He is trying to reach out to those who think differently than he does, presumably to better understand why those people think how they do. I respect that even more. By sharing our opinions with him, we are not "bashing" him or his faith. We are explaining why we feel as we do. By definition, our opinions will run counter to his. They should remain respectful, but they will not be sugarcoated if honesty is what he seeks from us.

You will recall, months ago, I solicited opinions from this board about why there is a hatred of hybrid vehicles. Meaning: I was not looking for cheerleaders of my cause, but trying earnestly to figure out why people held such diametically opposed opinions to my own. Your opinion was one of the harshest. I learned a thing or two from everyone who posted. Some of the opinions were subjective. Some were good points. Some were total, utter nonsense without a shred of evidence or objective fact behind them. So I took what I could learn from the good opinions and broadened my view of why people think as they do. And I ignored the really stupid opinions because they don't matter in the larger scheme of things.

This thread is the same. It pays to have a thick skin and the will to separate the wheat from the chaff, if one is to seek to learn why people think differently about things we hold dear to our hearts. It accomplishes less than nothing to be overly sensitive and all too ready to play victim. Echo chambers are safe, but to me incredibly boring places to be. Give me a room full of people who disagree with me, let's have at it, and maybe I'll learn a thing or two. That's the spirit with which I argue - nothing meanspirited behind it.

-MKL
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#761091 - 02/21/12 08:53 PM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: moshe_levy]
Huzband Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 7415
Loc: Cowford, Fl.
Maybe now we're on to something. I haven't used this forum to cram my beliefs down others throats. I felt you have with your constant hybrid/green/eco-friendly posts.

But maybe that's just Whip & I. grin
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'07 R12GSA (Moose)
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'90 RMX 250 (woods weapon)
'08 Black Lab (Auto)
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#761103 - 02/21/12 09:39 PM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: DaveTheAffable]
moshe_levy Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 3727
Loc: NJ - God Help Me
It's all perspective. As I told Larry when he passionately argues against me and my "agenda" (as he lovingly puts it,) by arguing against me so vehemently, he by definition has an agenda too. So do you. So does anyone else who expresses an opinion. Nothing wrong with that.

We're on a motorcycle-based forum where vehicles and the politics of transportation comes up, alot. I view conservation as a matter of national security - not "eco-friendliness" - and I consistently state my arguments from that position. As you likely have read recently on this very board, some other guys here are also of this mindset (either were there, or are coming around to it based on their research) and are starting to make purchasing decisions based on it, like the guy that just ditched his SUV for a diesel Passat. If I had a scintilla of influence in that regard, if I moved even one person one millimeter closer to buying a more efficient car, or furnace, or truck, or whatever takes that individual's money out of the hands of unstable theocracies, I'm damn proud of it.

-MKL
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#761105 - 02/21/12 09:55 PM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: KDeline]
Ken H. Offline
Turtle Whacks
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Registered: 04/13/03
Posts: 16404
Loc: Edmonton, AB Canada
Originally Posted By: KDeline
Originally Posted By: MT Wallet
Originally Posted By: moshe_levy
Or, perhaps, on a lucid understanding of it!

-MKL

Uh, No it's not. I know you'd like to think it is but it's bashing the bible and by extension Christians and Jews who beleive in it. No ifs, ands or buts.


I call it asking hard hitting questions that are not being answered. Wonder why?

Why, because when there are no answers the standard retort is "to have faith." Itís the perfect catch-all.

This thread started out about for what was perceived by the OP as scorn of a positive image. He seeís a positive image, fine, heís entitled. I see an over the top display of egotistical self-righteousness that seems to permeate many many high-visibly religious types (of any creed) that seen to think they have all the answers to the right way and things to believe in. And even beyond that, donít seem to think anyone who disagrees is entitled to their opinion.
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#761107 - 02/21/12 10:08 PM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: DaveTheAffable]
moshe_levy Offline
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Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 3727
Loc: NJ - God Help Me
test?
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#761109 - 02/21/12 10:19 PM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: DaveTheAffable]
moshe_levy Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 3727
Loc: NJ - God Help Me
Strange, I just typed up a whole reply, hit submit, and got the board rules instead. A premonition from God? wink Nahh, just the mods getting sick of my crap, more likely.

Ken, I'm not as anti-religion as I take it you are. I think it has its place. For example, my wife is a pediatric oncology nurse, and she's told me stories of parents who lost their kids holding it together because of their faith, or their temples or churches rallying 'round them to help in their time of need.

She's also told me stories of crazy religious kooks who put their own kids in the hospital. With machetes. Yes, here in New Jersey. God told them to, you see. She comes home upset, and I hear these stories. Plenty of them.

There must be balance. But above all there must be critical thinking, which in many cases is the opposite of faith. Faith is the belief in the absence of fact. Sometimes that is a powerful force - a force for good as well as not so good. Where people get into conflict with the faithful is when they have faith in fantasy despite fact. Like, say, ignoring science. Facts are there to be seen, but are ignored as faith is more convenient in certain cases than the cold, hard reality of a situation. So you see, faith can be a virtue or a vice - depends on whether facts are present and digested, or ignored.

Again, live and let live. History has shown us so many times, there is no monopoly on truth, and there is certainly more than one line around this racetrack, isn't there?

-MKL
_________________________
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2014 Harley-Davidson Dyna Switchback FLD
2013 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
2009 BMW R1200RT
1973 BMW R75/5
BMW-MOA, AMA, IBA

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#761114 - 02/21/12 10:40 PM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: moshe_levy]
mbelectric Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/06
Posts: 2485
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Same thing here Moshe...my reply was political in nature. Except I never had the opportunity to post it. As soon as I hit "preview" I was bounced.

I had to agree to "USER AGREEMENT" again. HUH?

At first, I thought the site was down, then thought....no couldn't be "big brother mod" watching me.

Hope this isn't the case. If so, it might spell the end of my time here.

Any one else had issues?


I'll take them PM so as to not hijack the thread.

MB>


Edited by mbelectric (02/21/12 10:42 PM)
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#761115 - 02/21/12 10:41 PM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: DaveTheAffable]
Shaman97 Offline
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Registered: 05/16/04
Posts: 1695
Loc: El Dorado Hills, California.
Same here.
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#761116 - 02/21/12 10:44 PM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: moshe_levy]
beemerman2k Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 6894
Loc: Ellington, CT
Originally Posted By: moshe_levy
There must be balance. But above all there must be critical thinking, which in many cases is the opposite of faith. Faith is the belief in the absence of fact.
-MKL


I love this quote, Moshe.

Today we have at our disposal a great online resource that facilitates critical thinking: YouTube. While working by day, sitting in my cubicle writing software, I will often listen to religious debates on YouTube. I have enjoyed debates:

- Between various Christian denominations
- Between Jews and Christians
- Between Jews, Christians, and Muslims
- Between Theists and Atheists
- Lectures on evolution, the Big Bang Theory, and the Cosmos

This has never been a greater time to educate oneself on both point, and counterpoint.

Here's my question for Christians: have you ever listened to a learned Jew explain why so few of them accept Jesus as the Messiah? I would strongly encourage you to do so. You may not be convinced either way, but you will walk away humbled, and not so quick to write off their criticisms. The average Christian mind is very poorly equipped to understand ancient Jewish culture and viewpoints. Reading the Gospels is often like being a kindergartener listen to Ph.D.'s debate a matter; we kinda get the general idea, but we miss so much of significance in the process.

My suggestion? Expose yourself to both point, and counterpoint.
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