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#761337 - 02/22/12 11:48 PM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: DaveTheAffable]
Firefight911 Offline
Sparkle Farkle
Member

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 8669
Loc: Folsom, CA
Matthew 20
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

If the worker leaves at 430 and the vineyard owner pays him, that is his desire/wish/issue not ours/yours.
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Phil Challinor

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#761338 - 02/22/12 11:53 PM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: texasaggie97]
moshe_levy Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 3736
Loc: NJ - God Help Me
Originally Posted By: texasaggie97
Do not Judge. This is one of the most misused verses. Judging is where a Christian looks at another individual and determines if another is going to heaven or not. God is the judge and the jury. I do have the right to acknowledge wrong and to stand up for what is right.


Ahhh, and here is where you fall into the trap that secular people criticize the religious for. If indeed your God is judge and jury, why are you saying that Christians are looking at others and determining whether they are going to heaven or not? That would make them judge and jury, wouldn't it? Or are they like some sort of "pre-judges?" Some sort of a human vetting process to make the selections easier for the Big Guy upstairs? Is that it?

The whole paradigm is absurd. We have laws because without them there would be anarchy in most societies. We have cops to enforce said laws because the honor system isn't enough in most societies. That's history. Take a step back from your faith for a second: Not everyone buys the concept of heaven and hell to begin with. That is a Christian concept (i.e., believe in this, or else!). It's a great marketing trick and it used to be, literally, the carrot and stick approach. It's a bloody history when taken to its logical conclusion - everyone who thinks like you is wonderful and going to paradise, and those who don't are "hellbound," or "infidels," or "heretics," or whatever description for "subhuman" your faith decides to assign to non-believers. When a group of people think another group of people are "subhuman," throughout history, really horrible things happen. Alot of these horrible things happened precisely because of religion and were sanctioned in full by the Church itself. Before getting on any sort of high horse, it would pay to remember that historical fact. Inquisitions, Crusades, Salem Trials, Montsegur, killing some of the greatest scientists, creating the concept of the Ghetto (look up the origin of that word)... And on and on. Because of human judgement pretending to be divinely inspired. They all judged and killed with glee - for God. Or was He just asleep during all this slashing and burning?

As I see it, the reason why God in his wisdom should be judge and jury is because presumably, he knows all the facts. You don't, and you certainly don't have any special insight on all the facts because you're Christian or you're whatever. So you don't judge anything beyond where you know all the facts at hand and your moral code (whatever it happens to be) is violated, unless by your own stated definition you equate yourself with God as judge and jury. Can you shoulder that load? I don't think so.

-MKL
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#761342 - 02/23/12 12:20 AM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: moshe_levy]
DaveTheAffable Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 1590
Loc: Southern Calif
Well... I've beat this horse to death. grin

What I was hoping to hear was:

"Yes Dave, it is inappropriate for you to tell someone to drink less, and JUST as inappropriate for them to tell you to drink more."

"Yes Dave, it is inappropriate for you to tell someone to stay at work until 5pm, and JUST as inappropriate for them to tell you that you should leave early."

"Yes Dave, it is inappropriate for you to tell someone that they shouldn't speed, and JUST as inappropriate for them to tell you to speed more aggressively."

It's curious I haven't heard that.

It is also interesting that the first comment from the naysayers of good behavior is that "they must be religious", while simultaneously trying to convince themselves and others that "good behavior does not require reigion or faith". And I agree with that. I have some great atheist friends.

We have been SO ingrained to be non judgmental, non critical, non invasive, non opinionated, etc...

People who encourage "good behavior" are criticized.

Those who criticize the PEOPLE who engage in "good behavior" are valued as progressive, forward thinking, open minded.

It is clearly an unspoken double standard, and very strange.

I have yet to make it to Torrey or a "UN". I promise I do drink, I will speed, and I won't talk about matters of faith unless it's brought up or asked.

I want to keep my "Affable" reputation. clap
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#761344 - 02/23/12 12:32 AM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: moshe_levy]
DaveTheAffable Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 1590
Loc: Southern Calif
Originally Posted By: moshe_levy
Ahhh, and here is where you fall into the trap that secular people criticize the religious for. If indeed your God is judge and jury, why are you saying that Christians are looking at others and determining whether they are going to heaven or not? That would make them judge and jury, wouldn't it? Or are they like some sort of "pre-judges?" Some sort of a human vetting process to make the selections easier for the Big Guy upstairs? Is that it?


No, no. I think he was agreeing with you. It is not for christians to "Judge" a persons ultimate destiny.

But, just as unbelievers will look at a christian and say, "Well if he believes the bible, why is he a thief?"
Christians ask those same questions. It is a disconnect between what they say, and what they do.

I have tree in my backyard that my wife (a biology major) swears is a pomegranite. I have NEVER seen a pomegranite on it. I have my doubts. But I can't "Judge" if it is or isn't. But I will do what I can to help it grow pomegranites as long as it's in my yard.

As has been said here, christianity would have a lot more credibility if they spent more time focusing on behavior in their own family before looking outward. (Oh yeah... log in the eye vs splinter in the eye.)
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#761345 - 02/23/12 12:47 AM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: Firefight911]
DaveTheAffable Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 1590
Loc: Southern Calif
Originally Posted By: Firefight911
Matthew 20
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
<snip>
If the worker leaves at 430 and the vineyard owner pays him, that is his desire/wish/issue not ours/yours.


I agree 100% Phil! I have no problem with them being paid. I have no problem with them leaving early. I have no jealously, "Whoas me. I'm working and they're gone." I had no complaint! THEY had the complaint and pressured me that I should modify my behavior to match theirs. I just continued to "ride my own ride". Didn't say "goodbye" to the boss at 5pm, or anything to draw attention to myself. Honest! LOL

By the way... I'll be in Sacramento for Calif Chiefs Conference in... 2nd week in March. Love to see you and those two wonderful women you have.


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'10 R1200RT

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#761346 - 02/23/12 01:39 AM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: DaveTheAffable]
Firefight911 Offline
Sparkle Farkle
Member

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 8669
Loc: Folsom, CA
Originally Posted By: DaveTheAffable


By the way... I'll be in Sacramento for Calif Chiefs Conference in... 2nd week in March. Love to see you and those two wonderful women you have.



We would like to insist you have dinner with us!!!!
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Phil Challinor

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#761358 - 02/23/12 06:49 AM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: DaveTheAffable]
moshe_levy Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 3736
Loc: NJ - God Help Me
Originally Posted By: DaveTheAffable
What I was hoping to hear was:

"Yes Dave, it is inappropriate for you to tell someone to drink less, and JUST as inappropriate for them to tell you to drink more."

"Yes Dave, it is inappropriate for you to tell someone to stay at work until 5pm, and JUST as inappropriate for them to tell you that you should leave early."

"Yes Dave, it is inappropriate for you to tell someone that they shouldn't speed, and JUST as inappropriate for them to tell you to speed more aggressively."

It's curious I haven't heard that.


I would say you've heard it a thousand times now in this thread. "Live and Let Live" means just that. It means:

"Yes Dave, it is inappropriate for you to tell someone to drink less, and JUST as inappropriate for them to tell you to drink more."

"Yes Dave, it is inappropriate for you to tell someone to stay at work until 5pm, and JUST as inappropriate for them to tell you that you should leave early."

"Yes Dave, it is inappropriate for you to tell someone that they shouldn't speed, and JUST as inappropriate for them to tell you to speed more aggressively."

It is 100% synonymous. And it works both ways. It means you leave others alone so long as they're not harming you, and others reciprocate. We have been saying this very thing, all along, multiple times per post. So it looks as though we're finally in accord?

If I misunderstood the other poster's intention re Christians and judgement, my apologies.

-MKL
_________________________
http://www.mklsportster.com/
2014 Harley-Davidson Dyna Switchback FLD
2013 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
2009 BMW R1200RT
1973 BMW R75/5
BMW-MOA, AMA, IBA

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#761366 - 02/23/12 07:29 AM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: moshe_levy]
Quinn Offline
Member

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 3550
Loc: Durham, NC
What I'm hearing is "Live and let live" is a lot like "ain't no skin off my teeth" and "Mind your own business."

All of which differs from "It takes a village to raise a child", "Am I not my brother's keeper", and "Your actions have consequences for us all." Or, a personal favorite, "Your actions advertise your values."

------
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#761370 - 02/23/12 07:54 AM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: Quinn]
Couchrocket Offline
Member

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 3344
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Quinn
What I'm hearing is "Live and let live" is a lot like "ain't no skin off my teeth" and "Mind your own business."

All of which differs from "It takes a village to raise a child", "Am I not my brother's keeper", and "Your actions have consequences for us all." ...


Well said. As I mentioned - easy pickings for the next consensus. One which will not likely be so tolerant. We're foolishly smug, I think.
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Scott Adams

"Today, if you hear His voice...."

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#761378 - 02/23/12 08:26 AM Re: Scorned for positive image...? [Re: moshe_levy]
beemerman2k Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 6919
Loc: Ellington, CT
Thank you, Moshe. That's exactly what I have been trying to communicate.
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