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#763533 - 03/04/12 12:32 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: nrp]
roger 04 rt Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/11
Posts: 1857
Loc: Massachusetts
Both left and right injectors fire at the exact same time and are controlled buy one wire coming from the Motronic.

On the TPS learn issue:

The Repair Manual for the R1150RT says the following:

Without starting the engine, fully open the throttle once or twice so that the Motronic control unit can register the throttle-valve positions.

It would not be a great leap to conclude that since "positions" is used that it refers to the two states that can be known--open and closed. As far as the math needed by the Motronic, it would only be done once following each reset, any relational numbers needed would be calculated and stored as constants. The list of those numbers to be calculated would be: idle, off idle cold start, WOT, overrun cutoff (although I don't know the value, I confirmed it's higher than cold start) and every TPS cell boundary for the VE (volumetric efficiency) fueling table.

On the surging:

NJNeal, Does your motorcycle surge on a cold day 40F or lower, before you get one bar on the RID temperature indicator?

Any bike that has been reasonably (as opposed to exquisitely) tuned and is still surging (aka lean-surging, aka lean-misfiring) is having trouble completely burning the mixture. This shouldn't be a surprise since 1100s have surged for more than 15 years and the 1150 surged until '04 when BMW added two spark plugs. I know some don't surge, but some do. Mine didn't but a richer mixture made it a much stronger bike.

I don't mean to disparage Techlusion but it seems hard to know exactly what it is doing to the mixture and with the O2. It's especially hard to believe the Motronic could fully calculate its "adaptation values" with a Techlusion installed.

An LC-1 Wideband/O2 Sensor & Controller allows precise control over richening and keeps the Motronic fully engaged. Before I tried one I would want to know that the bike ran cold without surfing since the AFRs are in the 13s and the bike is Open Loop during the warmup enrichment period.


Edited by roger 04 rt (03/04/12 12:37 AM)

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#763542 - 03/04/12 05:42 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: NJNeal]
Jim Moore Online
Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 2437
Loc: Jax, FL
Originally Posted By: NJNeal
I think I am done with this experiment. I plan on trading this bike in as soon as I can.

Neal


Try one more thing. Disconnect the oxygen sensor. The plug was on the right side by the front of the gas tank on my GS. Unplugging it really helped my surging. Idk about the RT.
_________________________
Jim Moore Jax, FL '99 R1100S '02 R1150GS

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#763544 - 03/04/12 06:14 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: roger 04 rt]
NJNeal Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 116
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt

On the surging:

NJNeal, Does your motorcycle surge on a cold day 40F or lower, before you get one bar on the RID temperature indicator?
...SNIP...
An LC-1 Wideband/O2 Sensor & Controller allows precise control over richening and keeps the Motronic fully engaged. Before I tried one I would want to know that the bike ran cold without surfing since the AFRs are in the 13s and the bike is Open Loop during the warmup enrichment period.


With a stone cold engine and ambient temps below 40, it doesn't surge.

As for trying another gizmo, I think I am just tired of screwing around with it. Some people really like spending a lot of time in the garage and I get that, but I am not one of them.
Today I think I will try it without the 02 sensor again (this time, with no Techlusion in the loop) and see if that helps. If not, I will reconnect the Techlusion, minimize the surge as much as I can, damn the mpg to hell, and just run it until a bike I can live with shows up at the dealer where I bought this bike.
_________________________
1978 R80/7
2003 R1150RT
I'd rather ride than wrench.

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#763545 - 03/04/12 06:30 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: NJNeal]
tallman Offline
Picture Perfect Humorist
Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 17743
Loc: Tallahassee, Florida
Neal,
Sorry to hear of your issues.
Could you describe how you ride the bike?
What rpm's you shift at/cruise at/city/hwy and how many boxers you've owned?
Just curious as once in a while it is the way the bike is ridden that exacerbates a surging sharacteristic.
Sometimes it doesn't matter, but boxers respond better to certain
methods and I've seen big changes result from different approach to what a rider was doing.
Again, some bikes have a big problem, but I often found that someone new to boxers rode the bike (unintentionally) in a manner that brought out the worst in the bike.
Good luck.


Edited by tallman (03/04/12 06:32 AM)
_________________________
If my mind wanders, should I follow it?
Tim
Conch Town Krewe
2003 K 1200 GT Mearas Luhn



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#763547 - 03/04/12 06:43 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: tallman]
NJNeal Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 116
Loc: Northern NJ
I guess I do three kinds of riding. I push it hard in the twisties and don't notice the surging at all. Or, I am doing 85mph all day long on the slab and don't notice surging. But, a good chunk of my riding is 25-40mph around the suburbs of NJ and the streets of NYC, and there the surging is incredibly bad. When the surging is bad, I'll look at the speedo and tach, and it's often in the 3500 to 4000rpm range, and often between 25 and 40mph.

I've only owned one other boxer, a simple, carb'd, 1978 R80/7. I still own it, and in many respects it's more fun to ride.

Originally Posted By: tallman
Neal,
Sorry to hear of your issues.
Could you describe how you ride the bike?
What rpm's you shift at/cruise at/city/hwy and how many boxers you've owned?
Just curious as once in a while it is the way the bike is ridden that exacerbates a surging sharacteristic.
Sometimes it doesn't matter, but boxers respond better to certain
methods and I've seen big changes result from different approach to what a rider was doing.
Again, some bikes have a big problem, but I often found that someone new to boxers rode the bike (unintentionally) in a manner that brought out the worst in the bike.
Good luck.

_________________________
1978 R80/7
2003 R1150RT
I'd rather ride than wrench.

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#763549 - 03/04/12 06:48 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: NJNeal]
tallman Offline
Picture Perfect Humorist
Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 17743
Loc: Tallahassee, Florida
And that was what I expected.
Two of 3 situations no problems.

So it comes down to, how to ride a boxer in urban setting (more or less) w/out undue surge, which will be difficult to do unless one keeps rpms up (which can annoy some riders).

Sounds like your bike is running pretty much "normal" wrt surge.
Try lower keeping rpms up higher and see what happens (and spend less time riding in town wink )

Best wishes.
_________________________
If my mind wanders, should I follow it?
Tim
Conch Town Krewe
2003 K 1200 GT Mearas Luhn



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#763555 - 03/04/12 07:54 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: nrp]
dirtrider Offline
The Oracle
Member

Registered: 06/05/10
Posts: 8282
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: nrp
Surprising they check the full scale as well as the closed throttle TPS readings. Everything of critical drivability interest (i. e. air delivery vs TPS voltage) happens in the first ~1/3 (or even less) of the throttle opening. Beyond that I would think the injector pulse mapping update would be quite a trivial exercise.

Somehow I keep thinking that the net air delivery opening vs TPS voltage on the two side is not similar enough at low throttle openings to keep the A/F ratio within tolerable limits of combustion.

Gurus - Confirm for me that the two injector pulse lengths are always of equal length. Or alternatively is the system adaptive enough to recognize a difference in the calibration of the injectors?


Morning NRP

The ONLY way the 1150 (MA 2.4) system understands engine load is-- Alpha-N or throttle position vs RPM. It needs to know precise engine load for open loop fueling control. It has no manifold pressure sensor (MAP) & has no mass Air Flow Sensor (MAF) so TPS/RPM is the only way to input engine operating load. Even old carbureted systems used engine vacuum for fueling to engine load, not real precise but at least engine load responsive.

After cold engine start & possibly short warm up the BMW 2.4 system only triggers the injectors once per revolution ( even on the exhaust stroke) so it is non-sequential. That also means it is basically injecting on a closed intake valve every other revolution.

Given the above it needs a very precise RPM input & a very precise "throttle position input" to figure engine load for non 02 controlled operation.

That also means using a dual input TPS (throttle position sensor). One very precise linear 0-1/2 throttle input & one less precise full travel 0-WOT throttle input.

For precise engine load input that also means knowing exactly where closed throttle starts & where full WOT ends. On the 2.4 system it does that by learning those parameters at first power up after complete Motronoc power down, then throttle movement through idle stop to WOT travel (with choke off obviously).
_________________________
D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!

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#763573 - 03/04/12 09:28 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: dirtrider]
roger 04 rt Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/11
Posts: 1857
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: NJNeal
...

With a stone cold engine and ambient temps below 40, it doesn't surge.

As for trying another gizmo, I think I am just tired of screwing around with it. ...

 


It doesn't surprise me that your bike doesn't surge when cold. You might have read parts of my Wideband O2 thread, the data shows that the Motronic runs the AFR from the high 12s when cold to the low 14s when nearly warmed up. After hot, and during Closed Loop operation it gets into the low 15s. I think there are thousands of posts in forums outlining the difficulty our Boxer engines have with the lean conditions.

Since you don't feel like working at this much more, you could drop the AFR by disconnecting the O2, installing a (borrowed) BoosterPlug and resetting your Motronic. That would stop Closed Loop and put AFRs into the high 13.8 to 14.2, and see if you wanted to do more.

2,500 to 4,000 RPM is now one of the most pleasant operating ranges on my '04 RT.

RB


Edited by roger 04 rt (03/04/12 09:33 AM)

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#763576 - 03/04/12 09:42 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: roger 04 rt]
NJNeal Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 116
Loc: Northern NJ
Thanks. If anyone has a Booster Plug they want to loan me, that'd be great.

I would love to drive the bike to Roger 04 RT in MA or out to DirtRider in Ohio and just say "Hey, fix this". LOL. :-D


Originally Posted By: roger 04 rt
Originally Posted By: NJNeal
...

With a stone cold engine and ambient temps below 40, it doesn't surge.

As for trying another gizmo, I think I am just tired of screwing around with it. ...

 


It doesn't surprise me that your bike doesn't surge when cold. You might have read parts of my Wideband O2 thread, the data shows that the Motronic runs the AFR from the high 12s when cold to the low 14s when nearly warmed up. After hot, and during Closed Loop operation it gets into the low 15s. I think there are thousands of posts in forums outlining the difficulty our Boxer engines have with the lean conditions.

Since you don't feel like working at this much more, you could drop the AFR by disconnecting the O2, installing a (borrowed) BoosterPlug and resetting your Motronic. That would stop Closed Loop and put AFRs into the high 13.8 to 14.2, and see if you wanted to do more.

2,500 to 4,000 RPM is now one of the most pleasant operating ranges on my '04 RT.

RB

_________________________
1978 R80/7
2003 R1150RT
I'd rather ride than wrench.

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#763581 - 03/04/12 10:25 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: NJNeal]
dirtrider Offline
The Oracle
Member

Registered: 06/05/10
Posts: 8282
Loc: Ohio
Afternoon Neal

As a quick test to see if disconnecting the 02 sensor then spoofing the Air Inlet Temp will solve your surging problem.

Just unplug your 02 sensor again, then remove #5 fuse for about 30 seconds, then key on (do not start the engine) & do a new TPS relearn.

Then ride the bike a day or two to get a base line with no 02 control.


Then hop on down to Radio shack or other electronics store & buy a 3k adjustable potentiometer. Then unplug your ambient air sensor (on top of the air filter cover) & put that pot across the wire harness side of that air sensor plug. That will allow you to adjust that pot until you richen the open loop fueling as far as max air Intake Air Sensor trim will allow (probably around 6-10%).

If adjusting that that pot makes you happy then probably so will a Booster Plug (or a homemade Air Temp Sensor spoofer).

OR--If you have your TB's now adjusted properly, the engine operating in a healthy manner & a good responsive 02 sensor you can probably re-install your Techlusion (If a 1032 model) then hook the 02 back up & get a decent surge free operating single spark 1150. In the past have had very good results with the Techlusion 1032 removing most of the light throttle surging on the single spark 1150RT. This does require a healthy properly adjusted engine & a responsive 02 sensor to work properly though.


Added: or if you don't want to spring for an adjustable pot you can buy some "very cheap" 1/4 watt resistors in 1k, 2k,3k, 4k, 5k then just unplug your air sensor & try plugging one of those resistors into the removed plug one at a time then riding the bike.


Edited by dirtrider (03/04/12 10:48 AM)
_________________________
D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!

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