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#763592 - 03/04/12 11:24 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: dirtrider]
NJNeal Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 116
Loc: Northern NJ
Just disconnected O2.
Started up after TPS relearn and once it was warm it was much smoother.
Rode it, and noticed no choke idle was 300 rpm higher than with o2 disconnected, so rebalanced at correct warm idle.

Surge is much, much reduced. I don't think I will reinstall techlusion. Just run it for a tank.

Thanks again.
Neal
Originally Posted By: dirtrider
Afternoon Neal

As a quick test to see if disconnecting the 02 sensor then spoofing the Air Inlet Temp will solve your surging problem.

Just unplug your 02 sensor again, then remove #5 fuse for about 30 seconds, then key on (do not start the engine) & do a new TPS relearn.

Then ride the bike a day or two to get a base line with no 02 control.


Then hop on down to Radio shack or other electronics store & buy a 3k adjustable potentiometer. Then unplug your ambient air sensor (on top of the air filter cover) & put that pot across the wire harness side of that air sensor plug. That will allow you to adjust that pot until you richen the open loop fueling as far as max air Intake Air Sensor trim will allow (probably around 6-10%).

If adjusting that that pot makes you happy then probably so will a Booster Plug (or a homemade Air Temp Sensor spoofer).

OR--If you have your TB's now adjusted properly, the engine operating in a healthy manner & a good responsive 02 sensor you can probably re-install your Techlusion (If a 1032 model) then hook the 02 back up & get a decent surge free operating single spark 1150. In the past have had very good results with the Techlusion 1032 removing most of the light throttle surging on the single spark 1150RT. This does require a healthy properly adjusted engine & a responsive 02 sensor to work properly though.


Added: or if you don't want to spring for an adjustable pot you can buy some "very cheap" 1/4 watt resistors in 1k, 2k,3k, 4k, 5k then just unplug your air sensor & try plugging one of those resistors into the removed plug one at a time then riding the bike.

_________________________
1978 R80/7
2003 R1150RT
I'd rather ride than wrench.

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#763597 - 03/04/12 11:54 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: NJNeal]
roger 04 rt Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/11
Posts: 1861
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: dirtrider
...  

OR--If you have your TB's now adjusted properly, the engine  operating in a healthy manner & a good responsive 02 sensor  you can probably re-install your Techlusion (If a 1032 model) then hook the 02 back up & get a decent surge free operating single spark 1150. In the past  have had very good results with the Techlusion 1032 removing most of the light throttle surging on the  single spark 1150RT. This does require a healthy properly adjusted engine & a  responsive 02 sensor to work properly  though. 
 


Hi DR,

I have no doubt that you have used the Techlusion successfully so I'd like to understand more about what a Techlusion does because some limitations are apparent. I can see how it would create a pseudo alpha-n adjustment by deducing RPM from injector firing rate and TPS from injector pulse width. I'm guessing that it then has limits on pRPM and pTPS (except during fuel overrun cutoff when it is in the dark) that steer one of the three trim pots to be invoked. My questions:

-What % can it add to the injector pulse length?

-What does it do with the O2 sensor that it intercepts?

-What part of the fuel table does it allow the Motronic to fully adapt to?

-When does the Motronic get use use the O2 and then adapt out the Techlusion pulse lengthening?

The answers to those questions might help to understand why it can't eliminate all surging.

Thanks in advance,
RB

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#763599 - 03/04/12 11:57 AM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: NJNeal]
roger 04 rt Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/11
Posts: 1861
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: NJNeal
Just disconnected O2.
Started up after TPS relearn and once it was warm it was much smoother.
Rode it, and noticed no choke idle was 300 rpm higher than with o2 disconnected, so rebalanced at correct warm idle.

Surge is much, much reduced. I don't think I will reinstall techlusion. Just run it for a tank.

Thanks again.
Neal


No O2 will mean no adaptation so things will stay put. You might like your bike even better if you tried a borrowed BoosterPlug. When I get back in a week I will try to get Jens to send me a consignment unit for lending.

I guess NJNeal means you're in NJ and are running ethanol laces fuel.



Edited by roger 04 rt (03/04/12 11:58 AM)

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#763606 - 03/04/12 12:32 PM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: roger 04 rt]
NJNeal Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 116
Loc: Northern NJ
Yes, there is no "real" gas anymore in NJ. This ethanol stuff is all we can get here. I might actually vote for a Presidential candidate if he promised he would put an end to ethanol. It's gotta be one of the bigger scams I've ever seen. Less energy in each gallon, added processing costs, ruins fuel lines...who's it good for besides the farmers?

[quote=roger 04 rtI guess NJNeal means you're in NJ and are running ethanol laces fuel.
[/quote]
_________________________
1978 R80/7
2003 R1150RT
I'd rather ride than wrench.

Top
#763608 - 03/04/12 12:42 PM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: NJNeal]
roger 04 rt Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/11
Posts: 1861
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: NJNeal
Yes, there is no "real" gas anymore in NJ. This ethanol stuff is all we can get here. I might actually vote for a Presidential candidate if he promised he would put an end to ethanol. It's gotta be one of the bigger scams I've ever seen. Less energy in each gallon, added processing costs, ruins fuel lines...who's it good for besides the farmers?

[quote=roger 04 rtI guess NJNeal means you're in NJ and are running ethanol laces fuel.
[/quote]

And it makes you no O2 Open Loop fueling 4% leaner--for the worse.

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#763609 - 03/04/12 12:44 PM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: roger 04 rt]
dirtrider Offline
The Oracle
Member

Registered: 06/05/10
Posts: 8309
Loc: Ohio
Afternoon Roger

-What % can it add to the injector pulse length?----\
I have no idea on the max pulse width it (the Techlusion) is capable of adding. The pots on the Techlusion have some control on how much it can add & when it gets added. Obviously plenty because if set incorrectly it can play he!! with the fuel economy.

-What does it do with the O2 sensor that it intercepts?----\
That's a very good question. You can call & talk to 3 different tecs & you get 3 different answers (none have ever given me an answer I feel I can trust). It definitely changes it. When riding with my duty cycle meter hooked up you can see the change in 02 voltage swings above & below .45 volts with a definite bias to the rich side (crossovers seem consistent). But without a scope on the 02 what it's actually doing is still a mystery. According to one of their tecs they use some 02 offset but how they effectively do that with a narrow band is way beyond me.

-What part of the fuel table does it allow the Motronic to fully adapt to?----\
That is also a bit confusing & makes adjustments difficult as there is some feeling change after each adjustment as the darn thing re-learns the adaptives. It does finally settle out & then you can evaluate your last adjustment. The thing is load sensitive & seems to use RPM/pulse width from the injector circuit to figure engine load & what internal Techlusion circuit to use.

-When does the Motronic get use use the O2 and then adapt out the Techlusion pulse lengthening?----\
This is the strange part as at hot curb idle the Techlusion returns the system back to OEM 02 control for converter protection. At times above idle (part throttle) it seems to block the 02 signal & supply either its own 02 signal or a modified (changed) 02 signal.

The things do work if adjusted correctly & with a bit of playing can make a single spark 1150 pretty well surge free but that does require a GOOD OPERATIONAL & RESPONSIVE 02 as well as a healthy engine with decent tuning. (I've never tried one on a twin spark 1150)

The load based accelerator function on throttle up is nice as well as the ability to add fuel in the upper RPM load range (I have been able to add top speed to the ones I have put a Techlusion on) not a lot but a few MPH at level road no wind repeated A/B runs.

Unfortunately, by the time I started playing seriously with the Techlusion on the 1150 Ma 2.4 system I lost my free access to a chassis Dyno & exhaust analyzer so most all my 1150 (single spark) road load work was done seat-of-pants with a duty cycle meter & A/B/C ride offs.
Most of the old 1150RT riders in my riding/friend group have moved on to the 1200 hexhead now but at one time there was 9 of us in my immediate group riding with Techlusions & twisting pots & trading bikes for comparison rides.
_________________________
D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!

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#763610 - 03/04/12 12:46 PM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: roger 04 rt]
NJNeal Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 116
Loc: Northern NJ
If someone comes up with a Booster Plug to try, I'll try it.

If the running doesn't get worse than it is right now, I could learn to live with it until the right deal comes along. No dealer will give me more than the dealer I bought it from, so when he gets something I like in on trade, I'll look to move.

[quote=roger 04 rt And it makes you no O2 Open Loop fueling 4% leaner--for the worse.[/quote]
_________________________
1978 R80/7
2003 R1150RT
I'd rather ride than wrench.

Top
#763677 - 03/04/12 06:15 PM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: NJNeal]
NJNeal Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 116
Loc: Northern NJ
So, to D.R.
I ran it all afternoon and it's better than it has been in the 9 months I've owned it.

As it's running pretty decent now, with Techlusion on the shelf in my garage and no 02 sensor, is it possibly a bad O2 sensor?

Will I probably take a big MPG hit leaving it as it is?
I don't see any point in putting the Techlusion back in.
_________________________
1978 R80/7
2003 R1150RT
I'd rather ride than wrench.

Top
#763681 - 03/04/12 06:40 PM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: NJNeal]
dirtrider Offline
The Oracle
Member

Registered: 06/05/10
Posts: 8309
Loc: Ohio




Evening Neal

Your 02 is more than likely OK. The 1150 single spark bikes do surge with a good opening 02 as the operational 02 leans the thing out to the point that fringe combustion is hampered, therefore the lean surge.

As far as running with the disconnected 02-- About all you can do is try it. There has been quite a few of us that have operated the 1150 single spark with the 02 disconnected for many many miles without any issues (at all). On my old (personal) 1150 single spark bikes, running with the 02 disconnected would reduce light throttle surging but not completely eliminate it.

As for fuel economy, I never noticed a big hit in the fuel economy running with a disconnected 02 sensor but I'm not really noted for my max economy riding style. (YMMV)

Just try it for a while & see if you can live with both the runability & fuel economy with the 02 disconnected.

Obviously if your surging is reduced you are running a bit richer in the surging operational range so that will probably lower your MPG slightly.

Any way you crack the nut, to reduce surging on the single spark 1150 you need to richen the fueling in the surging range. That will also reduce your MPG a bit in that range. How much is based on your riding style & just how much more fuel non 02 open loop adds in that operating range.

If you run open loop (02 disconnected) then add a Booster Plug it will definitely run richer & cost you some MPG. How much? For that you will just have to try it.

If you want to retain max fuel economy on the 1150 single spark & still operate at reduced surging you really need to improve outer edge combustion & that will take a second (lower) set of spark plugs & the ignition timing curve change to go with it.
_________________________
D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!

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#763683 - 03/04/12 06:42 PM Re: Re-calibration of TB to factory spec? [Re: NJNeal]
roger 04 rt Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/11
Posts: 1861
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: NJNeal
So, to D.R.
I ran it all afternoon and it's better than it has been in the 9 months I've owned it.

As it's running pretty decent now, with Techlusion on the shelf in my garage and no 02 sensor, is it possibly a bad O2 sensor?

Will I probably take a big MPG hit leaving it as it is?
I don't see any point in putting the Techlusion back in.


i went back and looked at my data. as you have it now you have cruising afrs between 14.5 and 15.2 so no mpg hit.

with a bp added you will see 13.5 to 14.5. i will have a loaner in about a week from bp. mpg hit of 3 to 5% likely but likely good performace gain.

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