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#765190 - 03/12/12 07:04 AM Re: Global Climate Change [Re: Selden]
moshe_levy Offline
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Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 3739
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Originally Posted By: Selden
But even so, as long as mankind's social goal seems to be to emulate an energy-intensive, consumption-based standard of living such as that traditionally seen in the industrialized countries, carbon release is going to continue to go through the roof until the side effects start having a deleterious effect on people &#151; such as the air pollution in China, which Chinese seem to be recognizing is killing them in huge numbers. I just don't see positive feedback loops having nearly as much impact on these problems as negative feedback loops.


Oh, absolutely!! 100% true. Scientists can sound the alarm bells, and we can choose to listen, or not. In certain matters, however, there really is no valid dissenting opinion. The fact that the majority of the world's scientists (including American) back this theory is a matter of fact, pure and simple. The papers they have published, including letters signed by some of the most prestigious names as published in the New York Times, are legion.

To Larry's point of financial motive, that is a fair point. Of course we would then have to acknowledge the flip side - financial motive in opposing the theory, which primarily would be heavy industry. Heavy industry DOESN'T have a financial motive in this?

-MKL
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#765212 - 03/12/12 09:05 AM Re: Global Climate Change [Re: Dave McReynolds]
markgoodrich Offline
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Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 3133
Loc: Austin, TX
Originally Posted By: Dave McReynolds
Just hypothetically, without having to take a position on whether man is causing global warming or not, what do you think the reaction would be if there is a massive extermination due to global warming? Indifference? Acceptance? Massive upheaval? A complete reversal of industrialization? Assume a remnant of mankind survives. What kind of civilization would you expect to see X hundreds or thousands of years from now when things begin to return to normal?


Morlocks and Eloi
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#765213 - 03/12/12 09:07 AM Re: Global Climate Change [Re: Bill_Walker]
Whip Offline
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Registered: 07/13/05
Posts: 10144
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Originally Posted By: Bill_Walker
Originally Posted By: Whip
Hansen's predictions have not been very accurate so he is having trouble getting traction lately.

...but he has made a lot of money.



Um, no. See Hansen's 1998 predictions. Claims that Hansen's predictions were wrong rely on cherry-picking the scenarios used for the predictions. This is a typical technique used by those who desire to cast doubt on the science of global warming for political reasons.

Do you have any credible sources for the claim that he has made a lot of money?



Um yes...."In June 1986, Dr. James Hansen made a prediction to an AP newspaper reporter, which was carried in Oxnard, CA, of a 2 degree temperature rise by 2006."

In 1988 Salon interview when asked “If what you’re saying about the greenhouse effect is true, is anything going to look different down there in 20 years?” ...he answered....“The West Side Highway [which runs along the Hudson River] will be under water. And there will be tape across the windows across the street because of high winds. And the same birds won’t be there. The trees in the median strip will change.” Then he said, “There will be more police cars.” Why? “Well, you know what happens to crime when the heat goes up.”


Sorry....soooooo.....um yes, his predictions are not exactly something you can take to the bank, but you can make a movie.


wave
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#765215 - 03/12/12 09:17 AM Re: Global Climate Change [Re: Jaguar]
markgoodrich Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 3133
Loc: Austin, TX
Originally Posted By: Jaguar
Here is one of many sites to counter the global warming alarmists.

http://kutwrite.hubpages.com/hub/Global-Warming-Fake-01


It doesn't really counter anything, does it? The writer cites a bunch of "facts" with no factual citations, and shows photos of snow. Checking the writer's own bio, he makes no assertions whatsoever that he has any sort of science background.

Rather than citing people like this, or making disdainful comments as some others have, without offering evidence, I would quite like to see links to real scientists with real credentials, in real peer-reviewed publications, setting forth the evidence that climate change is not happening, and that the continuing Industrial Age is not a significant factor. So far, I haven't found any such.

Without such responses, what we have is a political discussion, no?


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#765221 - 03/12/12 09:24 AM Re: Global Climate Change [Re: markgoodrich]
moshe_levy Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 3739
Loc: NJ - God Help Me
Originally Posted By: markgoodrich
Without such responses, what we have is a political discussion, no?


+1 thumbsup Summed up quite nicely.

-MKL
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#765223 - 03/12/12 09:29 AM Re: Global Climate Change [Re: markgoodrich]
tallman Offline
Picture Perfect Humorist
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Registered: 12/21/02
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Loc: Tallahassee, Florida
Just in case we take things too seriously.
The Universe in scale

Be sure to scroll.


Edited by tallman (03/12/12 09:30 AM)
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#765234 - 03/12/12 10:54 AM Re: Global Climate Change [Re: markgoodrich]
pbharvey Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 716
Loc: Highland, MD
Originally Posted By: markgoodrich

Rather than citing people like this, or making disdainful comments as some others have, without offering evidence, I would quite like to see links to real scientists with real credentials, in real peer-reviewed publications, setting forth the evidence that climate change is not happening, and that the continuing Industrial Age is not a significant factor. So far, I haven't found any such.


I wonder if any scientist who goes against anyone's deeply held conviction is "real" enough for those who don't want to change their mind regardless of any evidence presented.

I fully understand this reaction when discussing something like creation but I fail to understand why the global warming argument strikes such a nerve with people other than the political or ideological association of the two opposing sides.
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#765236 - 03/12/12 11:08 AM Re: Global Climate Change [Re: pbharvey]
Paul Mihalka Offline
Old Fart
Member

Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 12058
Loc: Sykesville, MD
Two cave men standing outside in hail and thunderstorm. One to the other: We never head weather like this until we invented the bow and arrow!!!
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#765242 - 03/12/12 11:29 AM Re: Global Climate Change [Re: DiggerJim]
RonStewart Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/03
Posts: 1290
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted By: DiggerJim
Of course, we could take the emminently sensible approach that suggests that the climate may be warming and adapt and actually take advantage of the benefits a warmer earth would provide (including an enormous expansion of farming capacity as the temperate zone extends further north into Canada & Russia).


Meanwhile, the Sahara expands and, presumably, Brazil develops deserts. At best, this is a net-zero proposition.
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#765243 - 03/12/12 11:30 AM Re: Global Climate Change [Re: pbharvey]
moshe_levy Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 3739
Loc: NJ - God Help Me
Originally Posted By: pbharvey
I fully understand this reaction when discussing something like creation but I fail to understand why the global warming argument strikes such a nerve with people other than the political or ideological association of the two opposing sides.


I often see the frustration on the GW believers in a sense saying, "Exactly how much MORE evidence do you need to see?? How much more consensus from the global scientific community do you need?" And so on.

It is true what Mark said. The evidence to the contrary, offered by actual working scientists from actual scientific institutions (and not studies funded by heavy industry) is scant indeed.

I see the frustration from the other side in correctly pointing out incorrect scientific predictions from the past, as well as an underlying accusation of financial motive. (I discount the financial motive angle as obviously naysayers also have financial motive as well - arguably a much larger one. Nor have I seen evidence that the entire global scientific community is somehow an organized cabal looking to cash in).

Finally I see some ideological frustration on the non-believer side with the idea that any aspect of one's life whatsoever be changed in an effort to conserve and thus lessen the effects of excessive carbon emission. There is almost a "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it" response to the alarm bells surrounding this issue. We'll solve it "somehow."

-MKL
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