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Slow Starting R1150RT


roger 04 rt

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When I tested an R1200 GSW the other day, one of the improvements is that cold the bike seemed to start like, er, er, vroom. My 04RT is more like er, er er, er, er, er, vroom. (Are these the correct Starter sounds, Andy?)

 

If I were to guess it sounds loaded when it starts so maybe too much fuel.

 

Anyhow, bike runs great except the slow first-start-of-the-day. I've GS-911ed all the sensors, looked at the LC-1 AFR charts, nothing seem to be wrong and the Motronic seems to be computing reasonable first injection times.

 

Since my fuel pressure is 20% high delivering 10% more fuel, maybe that's too much in this hot summer weather.

 

Measure primary Autolites, now at 0.035" gap an look clean.

 

Any thoughts in how to get my bike to start faster 1st time in the morning? Er, Er Vroom!

 

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Morning Roger

 

What engine oil are you using? If a thicker engine oil like 20w50 dino or even a 15w50 your cold start will be slower cold engine cranking.

 

Probably a lot thinner engine oil in that GSW. It also might have been previously started to move it out of the shop.

 

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Morning DR,

Engine oil is Mobil 1 10W40, been in for 11 months. Garage temps about 75 F. It seems to take more cranking than it used to for the first start. Once it's run for more than a minute or two and as I start and stop on any type of trip, even if the bike sits for 45 minutes, it starts, and I don't know better words, er, er, vroom.

 

On the first start, it behaves like it has too much fuel. When it catches it needs a little air to smooth out. Then after 20 seconds or so the engine is happy.

 

As I mentioned earlier I've made a good review of the sensor data and that seems fine.

 

This seemed to begin when I reduced the idle from 1250 (due to richer mixture) to 1100. I may just have to go back to the higher idle and see if that's it.

Roger

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Although I've done a TBB recently I've not cleaned the BBS passages ever and I've been so busy with measurements that I've not checked the valves since 9/2011.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Morning Roger

 

With all you have done to that bike you might have to try different things to get an idea on where to start looking.

 

First thing to try is -- manually holding the throttle twist grip to about 1/8-1/4 turn open. See if/how that effects your cold start.

 

Try killing your adaptives after shut down to see how/if that effects your cold starting.

 

Measure system voltage DURING cold cranking (to see if engine cranking is significantly lowering cranking voltage)

 

Try, key on (no start) & let the fuel pump run to shutdown. Do this about 3 or 4 time before cold starting. This should purge any latent air from your fuel system. See if it makes a difference.

 

Try jumping the bike from a car for first cold start. (not easy on the 1150 without a remote battery access stud (you should have one of those anyway). See if that improves cranking & reduces engine cranking time.

 

Any oil smoke from exhaust at first cold startup? If so maybe look at lower spark plugs for possible oil fouling after full night sitting.

 

I occasionally camp with a large group of BMW riders. The 1150's seem to take more engine cranking for cold starts than the 1200's do.

 

My present 1200 hexhead always took a little longer cranking on overnight cold soak in fairly cold weather (below 40°f) UNTIL I put a new Odyssey battery in it. Now it fires on almost no crank overs.

 

Just try different starting techniques to see if something makes it crack off earlier in the cranking sequence. If so that might give you a direction to start looking in.

 

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Hi DR,

Thanks for the many good suggestions. I've been going at this systematically and you've added a lot of good ideas. I can only try this once a day in the morning and a couple things I thought had worked didn't.

 

--I know the sensors are okay and that the LC-1 is presenting properly.

 

--My fast idle lever had a lot of slop. Taking up the slack moved my TPS from 1.28 degrees to 2.56 degrees. Seemed to work but didn't on a second try.

 

--Tried starting with the vacuum line from the solenoid on the TB side open. Seemed to work but didn't on a second try.

 

--Tried clearing the adaptives twice, no effect. My adaptives should be small since I've set the fuel pressure to about the amount I want the fueling to move--4% for E10 plus 6% for lambda. Fuel pressure is 20% high and has been that way for a year and a half.

 

--No oil smoke on start.

 

--Cranking speed seems good.

 

I'm going to go down your list. I haven't looked at the lower plugs since I put them in two years ago. And my next test will be the key on a few times before start. Then maybe the throttle.

 

Here are the RPMs and voltages from a GS-911 file that I took for the purpose, sample rate about 3/4 second:

 

0 12.28

0 12.28

0 12.28

0 12.28

0 12.28

0 12.28

0 10.08

200 10.49

700 10.98

1100 12.03

1000 13.9

1050 13.82

1000 13.9

1100 14.15

1100 14.06

1100 14.15

1150 14.15

 

RB

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--Bottom plugs good, pretty clean really, but one bit of hard black carbon about 1/4 size of a match head fell out of left lower plug after removal. Both plugs, properly torqued 2 years ago on installation, broke free on removal with about 5 NM of force.

 

Isn't it great that to get the lower plugs out all the plastic, mirrors, covers plus the cylinder head guards have to come off? And then back on ...

 

--Primed the fuel pump 6 times. Same slow start.

 

More tomorrow.

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Hello Roger,

My '04RT has cold started like you describe for all of its 9 years winter/summer 10-40 or 20-50 oil. I have thought it just the nature of the hemi headed beast. That and or a slow turning starter motor. Actually my 1100 single spark does pretty much the same thing. Come to think of it so does my '81 R100RT. Hmmmmm...

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I'm plodding my way through trying to figure out the slow start. I do have an issue. But before describing the problem further, once the bike starts and after 5-10 seconds of running rough, the bike runs great. And as long as the starts aren't too far apart, the bike starts quite quickly.

 

When I turn the key on everything sounds and looks normal. The GS-911 reports no errors.

 

For the past few days, each morning I've connected the LC-1 plotting software and the GS-911. This morning I got a good idea of what's going wrong but there are two competing issues.

 

The first thing I noticed is that for about 6-7 seconds, the LC-1 is measuring lean combustion conditions. When it first fires it is very lean and then over that 6-7 seconds becomes properly rich for warm up. The engine smooths out and everything from that point on is normal.

 

The ideas I have are something to do with fuel volume or fuel pressure. I am going to jumper the fuel pump relay tomorrow and let the pump run 20 seconds to see if that will result in a proper start. I don't have my pressure gauge with me.

 

The second unusual thing is that normally the GS-911 reports a spark advance zero degrees before starting and then about 5 degrees immediately after starting. What is happening during the lean AFR period I mentioned above is that is takes several seconds now for the spark advance to move from zero to 5/6 degrees.

 

Since the spark advance is calculated by the Motronic based on TPS and HES inputs, I'm wondering which of those signals is not getting to the Motronic correctly and if this no spark advance issue is causing a misfire and the leanness I mentioned above.

 

The rpm is recorded perfectly by the GS-911 but I'm wondering if one of the two HES sensors is flaky. Why would that only happen first thing in the morning? But I can't imagine why rough running would lead to no advance since the RPM signal is correct.

 

I have to wait till tomorrow to try again.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Evening Roger

 

Not much time on my end here.

 

Are you by any chance altering that .450v the Motronic placed on the cold o2 sensor to see when o2 starts working. Is it possible the Motronic is looking at a cold o2 sensor thinking it's warm & working?

 

Any signs of a plugging Evap can? Like a wooshing sound after riding the bike for a while then parking the bike & opening the fuel filler cap?

 

Does the cold start IAT temp match the cold start engine temp? Possible the Motronic isn't seeing a cold start condition.

 

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Hi DR,

That O2 question is pretty sharp. Yes, my O2 is on so I can record from the first moment. Yesterday it seemed like that might be the problem: the O2 voltage low, causing the Motronic to keep the timing at start conditions. As a result I put my O2 selector switch to disconnect so that it would look like a cold O2. That worked, the Motronic saw 450 mV through the start sequence but the symptoms didn't change at all.

 

No signs of plugging evap can but my high pressure regulator which is down stream from the 3 bar regulator is on my mind. Normally the output of the 3bar stays low pressure to the tank. On mine the 3bar output is blocked from seeing the tank directly by the add-on regulator. Maybe I'm getting some kind of pressure lock or leak there. I'll have a look.

 

The temps match and the fuel pulse is calculated to be appropriately long.

 

I'll try running the pump before starting to purge the system and see what happens.

 

There two hall sensors on the crankshaft, is one for spark timing the other for rpm or redundancy? Maybe just to make the prediction of engine speed easier.

 

RB

 

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... My 04RT is more like er, er er, er, er, er, vroom. ...

 

RB

 

They all do that. No, really they do. I think your fixin' something that's not broke this time...

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My several turns to start has migrated into that plus 5 seconds of chug, chug chug. The mixture during the chugging is very lean which isn't how it's been running for the past two years.

 

At the moment it seems like a fuel delivery problem. I do have an add-on fuel pressure regulator which I should look at next. I can purge it by running it for 10 seconds before starting to see if that's the problem. If it is, I have it installed with QDs so I could go back to stock easily.

 

One step at a time ...

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Morning Roger

 

I'm off on 200+ miles of dirt, mud, & gravel today so again short answers.

 

I haven't ever had the equipment at home to check this so not even sure it is there. I have some old Ma 2.4 tuning documentation that shows the Ma 2.4 (doesn't specify auto or M/C usage) has the ability to squirt the fuel injectors at both TDC & BDC using both upper & lower HES sensors for cold starting. This was a cold start tuning option. (just something to know about)

 

A couple of thoughts to try to isolate your problem.

 

--Maybe try killing the fuel pump after riding the last ride of night before & allowing the fuel rail to go to "0" pressure.- Then see how next morning cold start goes (that should take a dripping injector or high parked rail pressure out of the picture).

 

--Try killing the adaptives after riding just before parked for the night, then try an o2 disconnected cold start the next morning.

 

--Verify the stick coils are functioning at cold start.

 

--Try leaving gas cap cracked for overnight parking.

 

--Has this cold start thing been happening on multiple tanks of gasoline or just the one that is in it now?

 

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Hi DR, Many good ideas which I'll try, thank you. The problem seems to slowly be getting worse. This morning, I ran the pump for 20 seconds, then started, it was better but not quite right.

 

I don't know if it's connected, but my fuel gauge hasn't been reading quite to full for a while after a fill up. I see that +12V from the fuel pump relay drives the top of that potentiometer and am wondering if the pump relay contacts are part of the problem need to do more debugging.

 

Have a great ride.

RB

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...

 

I haven't ever had the equipment at home to check this so not even sure it is there. I have some old Ma 2.4 tuning documentation that shows the Ma 2.4 (doesn't specify auto or M/C usage) has the ability to squirt the fuel injectors at both TDC & BDC using both upper & lower HES sensors for cold starting. This was a cold start tuning option. (just something to know about)

 

...

 

 

 

This is a good possible explanation for why there would be a second Hall Sensor.

 

Has anyone else come across an explanation for why there are two Hall sensors when one could do the job?

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Hi Roger,

I took a look at the LC-1 gauge on my '04RT this AM when I started it and noted that it read very rich at about 12.5 AFR after the first 20 seconds during which time it always reads 7.5 which isn't the actual AFR as we know.

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That's what I've usually seen on my lc-1. Given my afr is high I'm thinking fuel but since my spark timing is off, maybe hes.

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It seems like I found the problem. The left cylinder stick coil wasn't fully seated on the plug which I found when testing the HES. It was high by about 1/8" to 3/16". Duh! Interesting that the bike would run perfectly but start poorly with the stick coil not seated. (It's been 6 weeks since I had the coils off to check the plugs. The same period of time that I've had the progressing problem.)

 

Through debugging this problem I've inadvertently learned that the Motronic can tell the difference between a smooth start and one with mis-firing.

 

The Motronic holds the spark advance at zero degrees until both cylinders are firing reliably and then increases the spark advance to about 6 degrees. I believe the only sensor that could detect the uneven running of misfiring is the HES, since the O2 sensor is offline until the bike warms up. Here's a link to how I blundered into that knowledge: R1150RT Poor Start Symptoms.

 

So thanks everyone who replied, DR especially.

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt
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I notice that you have a similar problem to my R850RT. Exactly the same at first start up even after servicing and after replacing the starter motor which I thought may have packed up from working too hard. I have not worried about it but still trying to vary my start-up procedure to try and get it to fire with the first crank.

I assumed it was a BMW characteristic - will be interested to see whether you find a solution.

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I've been debugging a problem that came up recently, of very poor starting. Something that happened slowly over the past couple months and got to the point I couldn't ignore it. It turned out to be two things and I discovered a third. A plot of the symptoms below. You can see how lean it is between 10 and 20 seconds on the lc-1 plot and also see the the Motronic is doing its job fine starting with long injection times and shorter times as the bike warmed up.

 

--Left stick coil not pushed on the final 3/16". It happened when I cleaned the connector contacts.

 

--My add-on Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator stopped working in an odd way. Took it off and put the BoosterPlug back on to speed adaptation as I reset Motronic quite often.

 

--Realized I had wired my LC-1 directly to the key. Voltage drop across the key was a few hundred millivolts. Realized I was lucky not to burn the key out. I bet I've degraded the contacts. Now wires where it belongs, green/white wire of Lambda sensor harness.

 

Bike now back to running great.

 

leanprob.jpg

Edited by roger 04 rt
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One of the other things I've noticed, because I've been taking a lot of GS-911 data recently, it that my temperature sensor, once in a while, looks disconnected to the Motronic.

 

The connector to the IAT sensor looks like a fuel injection connector, perhaps better for higher current applications.

 

Has anyone else had intermittents with this connection?

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Afternoon Roger

 

Yes, I have seen a number of intermittents or even full time open connections at the IAT sensor in the air box top.

 

From what I can tell, mostly AFTER someone has played with a Booster Plug or something else plugged into & out of that connector.

 

To test your terminals in the factory connector --just find an old sensor (or similar connector with the proper Bosch terminals), then strip a terminal out & use that for a gauge. The proper terminal should have a light drag felt when inserting into the terminals of your factory connector.

 

You will probably find that on the ones that have intermittents that there is usually no drag felt when test terminal is slid in & out.

 

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I've had the connector on and off dozens of times. Sometimes a BoosterPlug sometimes not. Maybe I can re-tension the pins or back them temporarily.

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Pins were very widely spread, more than the thickness of the pin. Bent them back in, works for now. May replace in the fall.

 

It's hard to believe mine are the only ones like this. If you aren't datalogging with the GS-911 there'd be no way to know. No error code appeared in the error log.

 

Thanks DR.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Afternoon Roger

 

As mentioned above, I have found a few like that with opened up terminals.

 

Mainly the last few years since the Booster Plug & other IAT spoofers have been around.

 

I have also mentioned it before in some of my past replies to posters with oddball runability issues.

 

I'm not sure on the Ma 2.4, but on some automobile fueling control systems, the fueling computer uses the IAT as well as engine temperature to determine a cold soak cold start from a short term cold start. If the IAT & the eng temps match then a long term cold soak.

 

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Evening DR,

I can say for sure that air temp, engine temp and O2 sensor impedance all seem to factor into the Cold Start Algorithm on the R1150. When IAT equal Oil Temp and both are above 20-25C, and the O2 sensor is warm enough to be active I've seen the MA 2.4 go to Closed Loop in less than 60 seconds. Use the same conditions and add a BoosterPlug and the sequence can take up to 2.5-3 minutes. I recorded this sequence this afternoon.

 

On another front, the Motronic ma 2.4 has good ability to discern that a cold started engine isn't running smoothly. I've got a dozen GS-911 logs where the Motronic holds the spark advance to zero degrees until both cylinders are firing. Only then did it advance the timing to 6 degrees.

Roger

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  • 2 weeks later...
...

 

I haven't ever had the equipment at home to check this so not even sure it is there. I have some old Ma 2.4 tuning documentation that shows the Ma 2.4 (doesn't specify auto or M/C usage) has the ability to squirt the fuel injectors at both TDC & BDC using both upper & lower HES sensors for cold starting. This was a cold start tuning option. (just something to know about) ...

 

 

Since my last report several days ago, I've done the following:

 

-removed the add-on regulator

-tested the fuel pressure and flow (at key on and at running)

-checked the regulator leakage at key off

-checked both injectors for leakage

-checked injector spray pattern and volume

-drained and refilled the fuel tank

-taken a 200 mile ride at speeds to 80 mph (the engine purrs)

-plugs look fine

-logged all the sensors with GS-911

-tested the Hall Sensors with the GS-911

-read error codes with the GS-911 multiple times (no errors)

 

Everything comes up in spec and correct except the Hall Sensor. When I test it with the GS-911, rather than getting the pattern h1, h2, h1, h2, etc. The GS-911 sees h1, h2, h1, h1, h2, h1, h1, h2, h2, h1, h2. In otherwords not a perfect sequence of one firing after the other. Some in the GS-911 Google Group say that's bad, another guy says he sees that irregular pattern all the time.

 

 

The Problem

During the first cold start of the day, for the first ten seconds the engine is slow to spool up. After all my testing it is better than when I started.

 

Below is a chart of the AFR and the sensors. The sensor data is for the green highlighted period.

 

1) During the green highlighted period the AFR in the second half of the green-shaded area should be below the blue-dashed horizontal line. In other words not as much after-start enrichment as I'd seen before.

 

2) Looking at the GS-911 charts. Everything seems good except it takes a long time for the spark advnace line (green) to move off zero degrees advance. At the same time the spark-advance moves from zero to 10 degrees, the engine runs better.

 

So it seems to me that either one half of the Hall Sensor isn't working and injecting the extra fuel that DR mentions above, or some other unfathomable cause of leanness keeps the spark advance from coming in due to irregular running. I still lack a good description of how the Motronic uses each of the two Hall sensors, can't find anything in writing (will have to test it later).

 

If after two minutes of running, I stop and restart the engine the AFR goes full rich, and Spark Advance curves immediately hit proper advance. Of course the engine is warmer then.

 

Could it be the HES, any other ideas? (Am I going nuts?)

 

In every other way, the bike is running great. My concern is that whatever is causing this slow start will migrate to other times.

 

RB

 

leanprob1.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Hi Roger

 

 

I have an sv1000 that starts the instant i press the starter button (doesn't even get to turn over). Had it 5 years & it's done it consistantly from new 40,000 odd km's ago.

 

My 04RT on the other hand takes approx. 4 seconds & is very slow start in comparison, even when used as a daily commuter. I've changed the battery with another brand spanka's BMW gell one & made no difference. The RT sure has some getgo + runs beautifully & gets a good spanking to red line round these parts. Oil i use is nothing fancy just the cheap 10/40 stuff from super cheap auto here in NZ.

 

fwiw, Sounds to me like the slow starts are just the nature of the machine

Edited by mrchips
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Thanks for that input, and I hear you. That lean-ish spot I highlighted though wasn't there (to the best of my knowledge) and has appeared.

 

What I realized as I dug into this is that I have no idea why there are two Hall sensors, one can do the job. Some possibilities are redundancy and better prediction of crankshaft speed for spark advance calculation.

 

Some have suggested that there are two, one for spark and one for fuel. Maybe, but it's hard to believe that Bosch/BMW wouldn't have taken advantage of two for redundancy.

 

Then there is DR's explanation, possibly for a second injection pulse during each cold-start revolution. It sure looks like that is a possibility. If I have to I'll set up and measure what's what.

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It seems like I found the problem. The left cylinder stick coil wasn't fully seated on the plug which I found when testing the HES. It was high by about 1/8" to 3/16". Duh! Interesting that the bike would run perfectly but start poorly with the stick coil not seated. ...

 

I had a bad stick coil and my '04 R1150RT shook like a Harley when it was running. I'm surprised it would run with a stick coil unplugged...

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The stick coil must not have been an issue even though it was unseated. This problem has been tough for two reasons: the bike has to sit for almost a day before the problem reappears, and it runs great the rest of the time.

 

While I was checking the injectors, I took them out of their bores one at a time. The bike was happily running on each cylinder individually.

 

I have to leave the problem for a couple weeks but still don't know whether the leanness is causing sluggishness and that is leading to the slow increase of spark advance, or if the slow increase in spark advance is leading to incomplete combustion and leanness, or if the injectors are supposed to fire twice as often during the first 5-10 seconds and they aren't due to a hall sensor weakness.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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  • 2 weeks later...

My problem remains the same after sitting for a couple weeks while I was gone. Too lean for the first ten seconds after sitting for a day. Just to recap I've gone over the fuel and spark systems, nothing obvious, everything seems to be to spec--fuel pressure, fuel flow and spark. Idle comes up slowly due to leanness and spark advance comes in slowly too--image below, green are of AFR chart is lean area. The GS-911 data for the first 10 seconds or so is the inset.

 

When I pulled a couple plugs and rotated the engine from the from pulley today both HES fired correctly and 180 degrees apart according to the GS-911. It surprised me that the fuel pump started when the TDC sensor fired and also when the BDC sensor fired. Is that usual?

 

Tomorrow I'm going to purge each injector before starting to see if there is air getting into the system somewhere that is causing early leanness. Then try a start.

 

RB

 

leanprob1.jpg

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The simplest way to explain my situation is that the bike runs great and starts easily except first time. Since I have the LC-1 and GS-911, I can see three things:

1. The sensors all seem to be giving the Motronic the inputs expected.

2. The LC-1 was showing very lean combustion for the first 20 sec.

3. For about 20 sec. The spark advance hangs at zero degrees. Then it goes to about 6 degrees. Then things are fine. I believe the Motronic is waiting for the engine to be smooth after start to advance the spark timing.

 

I replaced the lower plugs and now it is only 10% leaner than normal during the start. And starting better.

 

I've been through the fuel system, 100%. Also given the HES a careful test, rotating the engine from the front pulley. HES seems to trigger very consistently. Fuel pump turns on with each sensor, top and bottom.

 

The stick coils are next on my list and are now the prime suspect. I believe I had a fouled lower plug. And now with the lower (and then upper) plugs replaced the lower plugs are helping hide a weak stick coil.

 

Each stick coil will fire a 3/16" gap but when idling. Pulling the low voltage connector seems to affect one side more than the other. Also, over the past year I've had to reseat the low voltage connector on the left twice to get smooth idle (early warning on the stick?). The stick coils "look" fine.

 

I will try starting today with the lower plugs disabled and see if it will start on the uppers.

 

Euro moto electrics now carries Beru stick coils for the 1150 any reason to think they're better?

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Has anyone tried the Beru stick coils?

 

Today I measured the primary and secondary resistance of both stick coils along with the leakage between pins. The primary resistance is pretty easy to measure with an ohmmeter between pins 1 and 3 of the connector.

 

The primary resistance is 1 ohm on both coils.

 

The secondary windings of the coil which create the spark because there is a diode inside the coil, and its forward voltage (Vf, the voltage to be overcome before current flows) is 0.7 to 0.8 volts, perhaps a bit higher.

 

The secondary resistance can be measured with an ammeter. The procedure is:

 

1. Carefully remove and disconnect the stick coil.

2. Measure the battery voltage (12.8V in my case)

3. Connect the motorcycle battery voltage to the output of the stick coil (where the sparkplug usually goes).

4. Set your ammeter to a 20 mA range.

5. Connect the Black (Ground) lead of your ammeter to the motorcycle's Ground.

6. Touch the Red lead of your ammeter to Pin 2 of the coil

7. Read the ammeter. In my case I measured 1.8 mA.

 

Calculate resistance as 12.8V - 0.8V (assumed Vf) for the diode inside the coil. That's 12V. Now divide that by 0.0018 Amps. Answer 6.7K Ohms.

 

Here is what the part fiche says at Max BMW:

12 13 7 715 853 IGNITION COIL - 1 KOHM (from 12/02)

 

So either the parts fiche is wrong, my coils are both bad or my 0.8V estimate for the diode's Vf is wrong. I'm going to try and measure Vf by adding a 9V battery to the 12V.

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Afternoon Roger

 

 

It is about impossible to accurately measure the secondary on the BMW stick coils.

 

In any case, the secondary resistance won't tell you much as the usual stick coil failure is the secondary winding arcing to the RFI shielding inside the coil (that probably won't show with a low voltage test)

 

On the secondary resistance-- 1K seems way low for most stick coils as they (automotive) usually run in the 6-12K range.

 

The best test of a stick coil is to swap in "known good" stick coils.

 

Or a sometimes test is to just see is they will spark a BLUISH snappy spark across a large gap like 3/16" to 1/4". If they will do a bluish spark across something larger than 1/4" that usually means it isn't arcing internally to the RFI shielding.

 

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Thanks DR,

Though my stick coils "look" great. The replacement of my lower plugs, the couple problems that have been resolved by reseating the left connector, the cold-start spark advance vs slight-cold-start-leanness, and the cold-start leanness in spite of plenty of fuel are leading me toward the stick coils. Oh, and their age.

 

The leanness is because the mixture isn't igniting well when cold and the lack of spark advance during that period is because the Motronic knows it's in cold-start mode and is measuring the uneven running with the HES sensors.

 

The sticks both jump a large gap with a blue spark but I'm not convinced.

 

I mention the resistance test mainly as a demonstration that you can measure the continuity of the secondary even though an ohmmeter won't work. I don't know what the 1K refers to in the parts list and 6.7K ohms seems reasonable.

 

I think its time to replace the stick coils. I just don't like the shotgun approach if I can find a test.

 

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Also, I had the coils in and out 4/5 times today. I'm a convert to the two screwdriver method.

 

After all the back and forth with the coils, I made a cold start test. I didn't have the gauges on but it was the best start in a month.

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Morning Roger

 

Yes, that 2 screwdriver method is about all I use anymore.

 

Have you tried the AM radio test?-- I haven't ever done that myself but a few trusted posters here have had some success in using an AM radio to either find or to confirm a stick coil issue. (just listen for spark RF static as the bad coil fires). Seeing as most bad BMW stick coils seem to arc internally for a long time before fully quitting they probably put out a distinct RF signal.

 

One of these days I am going to try the AM radio thing myself as it makes a lot of sense due to most faulty stick coils arcing internally.

 

I'm not sure what that BMW 1 KOHM stands for but common sense tells us a 1k secondary wouldn't give it much of a voltage step up on coil collapse.

 

With ALL you are doing & have done to your bike a new set of stick coils might be a good idea just to have a solid trouble free ignition system as a base to work from.

 

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Hi DR,

I think you're right about the coils, and I've ordered them this morning. I will try the AM radio test and see how it goes before and after.

 

I also have a new HES that I'll put on later in the Fall when I have the time.

 

Here is my list of silent trouble makers on the Oilheads.

 

In-Tank Fuel Hoses (Done)

Injector Flow and Balance (Done)

Stick Coils (Soon to be Done)

Hall Sensors (Have it but later)

 

If I were to get another R1150 today, I'd just go and replace anything on that above list that hadn't been done.

 

I know I'm hijacking myself here but I guess my throttle shafts are a bit loose so I better look after that too. And then there's the spare Clutch Slave cylinder that I've had on hand for a while.

 

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt
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About 30K. Although I have a longish list there, I believe time is as much an enemy as mileage. I'm being fussy with all this because I'd like my 10 year old motorcycle to be as reliable as a new one. ;)

 

And I might as well add that the cover for the planetary gears in the starter motor fell off too.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Two new coils arrived last night. The manufacturing date is 03/2013 which means that the new coils are 10 years newer than the old ones.

 

The old coils have no physical damage and measure well. They both produce a bluish spark and jump a 1/4" gap. I haven't yet tried the AM radio test that DR mentioned. Using the old coils, the motorcycle runs great and starts fine but the first 20 seconds on the first start of the day is not as smooth as it should be. Before replacing the lower plugs last week, the start was occasionally very rough.

 

This morning, I installed the new stick coils and measured a full data set including all GS-911 sensors and LC-1 AFR chart. I will try and post the information later.

 

Success!

Turn the key with the Fast Idle lever in the detent (mid) position. It cranked briefly, started smoothly and strongly, and ran on idle to closed loop flawlessly. RPMs were in the 1200-1500 RPM range as I'd set them months ago.

 

Moral of the story: My 10 year old coils weren't up to snuff and it was very hard to tell. When I get time I'll try and figure out which one was bad when I get time.

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt
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That's really good Roger. I think those stick coils are a big source of many problems and they are so difficult to troubleshoot as well. My '04 suffered from this problem for several years until one coil completely quit working which made things more straight forward to troubleshoot. I think the after market coils you bought are a good choice as it looks like the RF shield is external to the coil. Going to try that AM radio test and maybe find someplace other than San Jose BMW to buy a 4 output ignition coil. I just can't deal with talking head frantic people that make no sense.

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I see on the euromotoelectrics.com sight that they sell a Dynatek coil package (coilDC2-1) that contains two dual output coils that are connected in series to provide service to dual spark airheads up to the 1995 production year which was the last year for the airhead. The coil primary resistance is 3 ohms with the coils wired in series. My question is would these coils work on an 1150 dual spark to replace the stick coils? Maybe these are the coils used by San Jose BMW?

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That's really good Roger. I think those stick coils are a big source of many problems and they are so difficult to troubleshoot as well. My '04 suffered from this problem for several years until one coil completely quit working which made things more straight forward to troubleshoot. I think the after market coils you bought are a good choice as it looks like the RF shield is external to the coil. Going to try that AM radio test and maybe find someplace other than San Jose BMW to buy a 4 output ignition coil. I just can't deal with talking head frantic people that make no sense.

 

I decided to go with the BMW supplied coils. They may also have an external metal body, I didn't check. I did get out for a short ride today and it looks like I have some adjustments to make.

 

The warmed-up idle is now about 1350 RPM vs 1100 RPM just before changing the lower plugs and stick coils. Most of the increase being due to the new coils. That means for the same amount of air entering the cylinder (that didn't change) the engine it turning over 20% faster!

 

I've got to say that for a bike who's only symptom was a slight leanness during the first 20 seconds on the first cold start of the day, the coils were really a drag on performance. It makes me wonder how many 2004 R1150RTs are out there with coils that aren't bad enough to notice but are affecting performance.

 

As I mentioned the original coils were made 10 years ago by Bremi. The new coils shipped from Max BMW are Pulse 12195.

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Hi Roger,

I asked myself that same question concerning the bikes out there that have questionable stick coils. In my case I noticed a tendency to surge slightly around town at slow speed then when the bike had about 10K miles while on a trip, it suddenly began to surge much more at slow speeds intermittently. I thought the problem could be corrected with a Techlusion and it seemed, for awhile, that this was correct. So, for about another 25K miles and several years I tweaked on my Techlusion and put up with less than great performance until the damn stick coil finally gave up whilst on another trip out in the middle of no-where Nevada of all places. We managed to limp home on the secondary plugs and I quickly determined that not one but both stick coils were faulty. I sold the Techlusion on the MOA flea market sight for what I paid so no loss there and the LC-1, as we know, is a better option. Meanwhile, I got the info from San Jose BMW about purchase of the 4 output coil with mounting bracket to get rid of the stick coils which sounds like a good winter project and if I don't like the results I can return the coils. They wouldn't tell me the manufacturer of the coils saying only that they are from another un-named motorcycle. Apparently they are seeing folks dual plug the R1100 bikes presumably to address the surging issue. I really am uncomfortable riding my '04 1150 with stick coil ignition.

Edited by JamesW
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...until the damn stick coil finally gave up whilst on another trip out in the middle of no-where Nevada of all places. We managed to limp home on the secondary plugs and I quickly determined that not one but both stick coils were faulty. I sold the Techlusion on the MOA flea market sight for what I paid so no loss there and the LC-1, as we know, is a better option. Meanwhile, I got the info from San Jose BMW about purchase of the 4 output coil with mounting bracket to get rid of the stick coils which sounds like a good winter project and if I don't like the results I can return the coils. They wouldn't tell me the manufacturer of the coils saying only that they are from another un-named motorcycle. Apparently they are seeing folks dual plug the R1100 bikes presumably to address the surging issue. I really am uncomfortable riding my '04 1150 with stick coil ignition.

 

Are you saying that there is an alternative to the standard stick coils? One of the stick coils on my 04RT failed two years ago and I replaced both.

 

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=55999&Number=618566#Post618566

 

Two years later I am experiencing he slow start symptoms. Do they go that quickly? I do ride in California, where it gets hot, however.

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Hi Stefan,

Yes, according to the folks at San Jose BMW you can purchase just the 4 output coil and mounting bracket for an R1150 dual plug per head motorcycle and not use stick coils just plain old HV wiring from the coil to spark plug. I am going to give it a try this winter or before. I know that San Jose BMW has been marketing dual plug conversion kits successfully for airhead motorcycles for many years so they have experience. Oh, you also must buy two HV plug leads as well. Total cost looks to be around 350 bucks. I can't see any reason why this won't work.

 

Can you imagine an oilhead with not 2 but 4 stick coils? Not in my dreams!

 

Actually, it looks like winter is about to arrive here on the Oregon coast with up to 6 inches of rain forecast for this weekend. The Oregon Ducks California Bears game might end up being played under water Saturday night. Hey, advantage Ducks? :clap: Maybe time to load up and head for Baker City.

Edited by JamesW
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