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Rider with no experience, killed while leaving dealership


upflying

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http://www.ksat.com/news/motorcyclist-struck-killed-leaving-dealership/-/478452/21137074/-/vcyo24/-/index.html

This is like handing a loaded gun to a child. Stuff like this gets me on the regulation bandwagon. When will there be a law requiring a motorcycle rider course and a motorcycle license before a dealership will allow you to ride off on that new bike?

Edited by upflying
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Urban Surfer

I knew a young lad who bought a new 750 honda from a dealer when he was 20.

He didn't know how to start it.

He survived and is still riding 35 years later.

 

A young fellow two doors from me who I worked with bought a new R6 ( his first bike)

I went to his funeral a few months later. :cry:

Edited by Urban Surfer
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Sad and unfortunate and why I think everyone should ride dirt bikes before a street bike. Not that there should be a law stating that, but the dirt is WHERE to learn how to throttle/brake/clutch/shift with at least a LITTLE less danger than heading out into traffic.

 

Some of the people commenting below the article are just dumb too though. One acts all mad at the dealer and compare a car dealership not letting you test drive a car without a license...duh, but I personally have bought a new truck without ever pulling out my license and drove off without ever showing it. The guy was not test riding it, but bought it.

 

I have some of the same feelings about trailers and boats. Any knucklehead can pull into a boat shop or sea doo shop and buy a boat/ski and drive off towing it without ANY kind of training or knowledge of towing. In Cali there are laws spefic to towing like mandatory lanes and limited speeds for towing but most people have no clue. You can NOT tow in a car pool/HOV lane or toll lane here but I see it everyday.

 

Like upflying, I am not neccesarily a fan of legislation and laws dictating our daily lives, but it does seem like a no brainer to require someone to be at least licensed to drive off on a bike on the street.

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I can't think of a new rider that I have known, particularly a young rider, who hasn't crashed his first bike. It's near automatic. Heck, I guess I'd have to include myself - first street accident at about age 22 after 2 years street riding (and maybe 10 years dirt) experience.

 

My son's was a relatively minor spin out on wet pavement at age 19. Thankfully, it was a cheap learning lesson. He had 10 years of dirt experience, and Dad couldn't teach him anything - he learned literally "on the street" (i.e. lying prone in the street, with 3 cute cheerleaders in the car behind him, faces aghast). :grin:

 

My son helped out a Marine with his second-hand Ducati earlier this year, after the guy stopped in at his Home Depot looking for tools, and demonstrating, well, that he had no clue what he was doing with the bike. He had a second bike he was riding that he was going to sell - crashed it a week later. He traded in the Ducati for a new sports bike, maintenance was more than he wanted, and crashed that new bike too, all in the period of a few months. My son said "Dad, some people REALLY need to not ride a motorcycle ...".

 

The neighbor's son picked up a sports bike - we were worried about him, but he made it through a couple of years before he crashed - injuries to pride mostly. (In fact, he had a "really bad, very bad, stupid-awful day", he wrecked his bike, and his car, AND his dad's borrowed car on the same day. Poor kid. The cars were hit by others, but bike crash was operator error.)

 

It's just automatic. I never used to think much about crashing bikes since we did it regularly growing up on dirt machines, a few scrapes, a cousin broke his leg, etc.. I knew the street was a whole lot more dangerous when I bought a street bike in college, and my dad was unhappy (his close friend's son had died at about age 34 when a car T-Boned his Harley as he was making a U-turn). But I never really thought much about it, until my son decided he was going to ride street, and then my daughter swore she would too (hasn't done it yet, but rides 2up with her husband).

 

So, the lie of it is, of course, that I can ride and nothing will happen to me. My best friend can ride, and he's super talented and nothing will happen to him. My neighbor rides his Golden Wing - no problem. But when the "kids" are riding, oh Lord, please protect them, because an accident is in progress from the first time they touch the handlebars - just a matter of time.

 

However, I guess "what doesn't kill us... " is a lot of times, kind of funny years later in hindsight.

 

- Scott

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Well said Scott, I started at 13 like many of us on dirt.

49 now and it IS different when the kids start down the same path. However, today the dangers are much more prevalent with all the cell phones & texting.

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Morning Bob

 

In my area, none of the motorcycle dealers (that I personally know of) , be it BMW, Harley, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, etc will allow any test rides or other riding of ANY motorcycle without a valid & current motorcycle endorsement. In fact some also require a valid current motorcycle insurance policy on another motorcycle & they make a copy of that for their records.

 

You can actually buy a motorcycle without a current or valid motorcycle endorsement but no dealer in my area (that I know of) will allow the bike to be ridden off their property, even after the sale, by a rider without a current valid M/C endorsement.

 

Not sure on all dealers but most that I know will ONLY deliver the bike to the purchasers home (by trailer), or allow the bike to be ridden off the property by a person with a valid M/C endorsement.

 

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Morning Bob

 

In my area, none of the motorcycle dealers (that I personally know of) , be it BMW, Harley, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, etc will allow any test rides or other riding of ANY motorcycle without a valid & current motorcycle endorsement. In fact some also require a valid current motorcycle insurance policy on another motorcycle & they make a copy of that for their records.

 

You can actually buy a motorcycle without a current or valid motorcycle endorsement but no dealer in my area (that I know of) will allow the bike to be ridden off their property, even after the sale, by a rider without a current valid M/C endorsement.

 

Not sure on all dealers but most that I know will ONLY deliver the bike to the purchasers home (by trailer), or allow the bike to be ridden off the property by a person with a valid M/C endorsement.

That could be an insurance requirement for dealer. Maybe that's where compliance should be headed. I wonder if that San Antonio dealer could be exposed civilly for the death.

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My first motorcycle was bought brand new and all I had was a Learner's Permit. Maryland did not have any rider training courses (MSF Basic will actually get you your license now) and it was a rough ride home with a buddy behind me in his car.

 

Looking back, I could very easily have done the exact same thing that this rider did.

 

The dealer policy that Dirtrider posted seems like it makes a ton of sense.

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I had been off bikes for a few years when I bought my shiney new 1999 ZRX1100 from that same dealer. When they threw me the keys I was all pumped up and nervous at the same time. I did a lap around the parking lot and headed for the street in front of the dealer which is really the I-10 feeder road between two on ramps and two off ramps and the merging of Fredericksburg RD. All 4 lanes of traffic is one way left to righg. The pull out is just over the crest of a hill which means you can only see a couple hundred yards and only the tops of taller vehicles. Some of the vehicles are moving slow to turn into shopping areas while other are coming off I-10 at 60-70 mph, then some are moving and accelerating to get to the far lanes to get on to the interstate. As I committed to pulling out I can remember the feeling of power the ZRX had. I can also remember checking my mirror and seeing cars gaining on me before I got going. I think I shoulda trailered it home instead of riding it to work that day....and the next 100 days.:) I guess what I am saying is there has prolly been many close calls at that dealership. BTW ... Shane the sales manager has been replaced, he had been there in one capacity or another for at least ten years.

Edited by Whip
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In my area, none of the motorcycle dealers (that I personally know of) , be it BMW, Harley, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, etc will allow any test rides or other riding of ANY motorcycle without a valid & current motorcycle endorsement.

Same just about everywhere I've been. In today's world I would expect this to be a basic business requirement of running any motorcycle dealership regardless of whether it is required by statute or not, just to protect against liability.

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When I bought my first street bike in 05, without an endorsement, the dealer would let me sit on it, without the engine running and after purchase they would not let me ride it out of the lot (I wasn't, had my truck there to take it home in). They told me it was their policy that if a person bought a bike that was not properly licensed, they would not allow the bike to be ridden from their property. Told me if that was my plan, I would have to push it off of their lot and it was my responsibility as far as what happened after that. Trucked the bike home and there it sat until I had my permit and could ride with another rider. So it basically sat for a month with just a few short escorted trips until I got into a Team Oregon class.

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In my area, none of the motorcycle dealers (that I personally know of) , be it BMW, Harley, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, etc will allow any test rides or other riding of ANY motorcycle without a valid & current motorcycle endorsement.

Same just about everywhere I've been. In today's world I would expect this to be a basic business requirement of running any motorcycle dealership regardless of whether it is required by statute or not, just to protect against liability.

 

Would imagine it's also the law in most states. In Oregon it is illegal to provide a vehicle to an unlicensed person. So if you let someone take a test ride that did not have an endorsement, the salesperson could also be cited.

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The issue here is not a "test ride". The dealers i know around here do not offer test rides, other than BMW and then you have to provide Valid M1 license and Insurance card that they photo copy.

The generic "motorsports, conglomo corp MC dealer" around here and the HD dealer does not allow test rides.

 

This guy just bought this bike. There is no requirement here to check you license.

 

I hate to sound so cold, but if this guy was dull enough to buy a bike with that little of experience and just head out into traffic and get whacked, isn't that just a form of culling the herd?

 

BTW, I was not suggesting that if a person learns to ride in the dirt that they are now safe and will not crash on the street. My suggestion is merely that being out in a big soft dirt field or desert learing to control all of the various functions and the ineviteable few drops early on is a much better place to learn those fundamentals rather than pulling out into a busy street.

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And no one mentions the horror of his Mom witnessing the accident. My heart goes out her, as we have no idea how this tragedy will affect the rest of her life. :cry:

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Urban Surfer

Is there not a graduated licence system in some European countries. Where new riders start on smaller bikes.

 

An inexperienced rider should not have a licence to ride a high powered or heavy motorcycle. There must be liability issues if a dealer allows someone to ride off without a licence.

Lets face it most young people think they're invincible.

 

 

 

 

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Just another alternative thought. The article says he bought a 2007 Ninja...it does not say what size Ninja. They made a Ninja 250 R in 2007 so that would put it on the lower end of a street bike size, maybe even in the first tier of most tiered systems other than the Orient where they still ride alot of small bore 2 strokes.

 

In the US I can not think of alot of street legal production motorcycles under 250cc excluding scooters and older bikes {usually 2 smokers}, especially newer bikes (2000 up)

 

He was 25 yrs old, and possibly on as small of a bike as a 250cc starter bike {doubtful, but possible} so personally I do not see the "handing a loaded gun to a child" issue here.

 

Not saying it is not sad and tragic, especially for his mom to watch, and the SUV driver caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, but he was not a child. And if it was a 250 Ninja that is the equvalent of a Daisy or Red Ryder BB gun.

 

The better analogy might be "it is like handing a young inexperienced man a BB gun and setting him in the middle of a freeway".

 

For me part of the unfortunate equation is he is lumped into all motorcycle rider catagories...like the article title says "motorcycleist killed"...was he actually a "motorcycleist"?

Buying a bike and immediately crashing and never riding again does not qualify as a "motorcycleist" in my opinion. Yet, my insurance and yours reflects the price of all of these types of riders because they are lumped into generic stats.

 

It also affects all of us because everyone you work with, family members, friends and mates who do not understand the riding gene throw these articles in our faces and exclaim that we will all die. That gets old.

 

 

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At least preface your link that it's a cheap plug to your own opinionated article.

 

Danny, we here at BMWST are often called "Mr Roger's Neighborhood". This is due in part because comments framed in such disrespectful terms as yours above are not permitted here.

 

Andy

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I had been off bikes for a few years when I bought my shiney new 1999 ZRX1100 from that same dealer. When they threw me the keys I was all pumped up and nervous at the same time. I did a lap around the parking lot and headed for the street in front of the dealer which is really the I-10 feeder road between two on ramps and two off ramps and the merging of Fredericksburg RD. All 4 lanes of traffic is one way left to righg. The pull out is just over the crest of a hill which means you can only see a couple hundred yards and only the tops of taller vehicles. Some of the vehicles are moving slow to turn into shopping areas while other are coming off I-10 at 60-70 mph, then some are moving and accelerating to get to the far lanes to get on to the interstate. As I committed to pulling out I can remember the feeling of power the ZRX had. I can also remember checking my mirror and seeing cars gaining on me before I got going. I think I shoulda trailered it home instead of riding it to work that day....and the next 100 days.:) I guess what I am saying is there has prolly been many close calls at that dealership. BTW ... Shane the sales manager has been replaced, he had been there in one capacity or another for at least ten years.

 

It's a sure sign of old age when every story you hear reminds you of yet another story to tell. :grin: Hope this doesn't offend the OP for taking this a bit off-topic. Whip's story reminded me of my first "return to street riding" bike.

 

I returned to street riding about 2005 (has it been that long ago?!), and couldn't really think of a street motorcycle I "wanted", because it had been 20 years since I had ridden street and a lot had changed (though I had ridden dirt bikes, but they were 20 years old too - I really had no idea about modern motorcycles). I knew Harley/cruisers were not for me, and my belly wouldn't fit over a cafe racer even if I wanted one, which I didn't. I was looking at cycle trader and Ebay, and found a 2001 BMW R1100 RTP at auction which was about in my budget, plus, it was a "BMW". I remembered that "back when" (e.g. when I was a poor, young Navy Officer) I really wanted a BMW "some day". So, I made the bid and the deal was done.

 

We took my pick-up truck to LA to pick up the bike, which still had all the authority equipment on it. I backed the pickup tail gate to a dirt mound a half block away to use as a loading ramp, paid the man for the bike, he closed his warehouse door, and then I thought to myself - now what? That RTP looked like a beast between my legs. I was SURE I would end popping the clutch, burning out, and dumping the bike, let alone trying to get it up and into the back of the pick-up. But hey, I'd ridden 220 lb dirt bikes into the back of pickups for ages, so "how hard could it be?", give or take 300 lbs more. Plus, I had my 18 year old son with me to laugh at any mistake I made, plus record it for posterity for the "family record". The pressure was on.

 

I rode it down the street into the truck, surprisingly, without screwing up (well, stalling it 3 or 4 times doesn't REALLY count as a "screw up", technically speaking, regardless of what my son says now). That poor little 1/2 ton Ford F150 Crew Cab labored under the load, with the rear tire at the far edge of the bed just barely hanging on. I tapped off the emergency lights with masking tape, strapped it down as best I could, and away we went.

 

However, I noticed a funny thing on the way home on the I5 freeway. Wherever I drove (at about 60 mph, because I wasn't entirely sure of the security of tie downs), in whichever lane, I created the equivalent of a "rolling traffic block". No one wanted to pass the black colored unmarked pickup with the unmarked CPH style BMW RTP in the pickup bed. In fact, no one in ALL FOUR LANES passed me. I had to pull over a half dozen times so as to not impede traffic.

 

Then that night, with my Class M permit in hand, I took it for the first ride about 5pm. SHAKY and SCARED I was, for sure. Whip said "100 days", make mine about 180 days, before I finally relaxed while riding that bike. I was heading home before dusk, and I got that strangish feeling again, where I noticed that cars had dropped "WAYYYY BACKKKK" when following me. When I got home, I was mortified to find out that the masking tape over the blue running lights was almost transparent, and shown through quite well. My Beemer looked genuinely official. (Then my son took it for a quick ride down to the end of our residential street, just to get the feel of it, and wouldn't ya know it, he ran smack into a local PD unit. The officer looked at my son, my son looked back and waved, the officer continued on, my son pulled a U-Turn and rode that RTP right back into the garage, and never road that bike again. He's half Filipino, but he was 100% white with fright that night. :grin:)

 

It took me a month to figure out how to safely decommission all the authority components - I stared at that the bike in my garage for over two weeks afraid to remove the tupperware. "What have I gotten myself into ..." went through my mind about a dozen times, from day one until I got the bike civilian road ready. :D

 

Then there was my license qualification riding test with the RTP - another hoot. I've GOT to tell this story. (Remember me, if we end up at a camp fire together someday, and RUN ...).

 

I went out the night before at 2:00 AM and set up my own course in a school parking lot using traffic cones, after learning how tough the qualifications test was going to be the next day. Canceling the appointment that took me 60 days to obtain was out of the question. After failing to negotiate the course multiple times, I actually RODE out to the DMV center (again, in the middle of the night) to VERIFY that the dang course was as tough what I had read. I road the actual course in the dark and I found out that while I was a decent rider, I couldn't even see the 24" parallel lines which I was supposed to keep my front tire between, because of the tuperware, much less make it up the 6 foot straight away, twice around the 19.5' concentric circle, and back out the other 6' straight away (think of a lolly pop with twin stems at the bottom), twice in a row without touching my feet.

 

The next day, I went to the ACTUAL DMV center in Escondido where my test was schedule. It was in a converted car dealer show room, which was a U-shaped building, with glass windows on three sides. Inside the outdoor square of the "U" was the "circle" of the motorcycle license qualification course. The "ramp" into and outside the circle was through a covered area where the service advisers once received vehicles, i.e. two lanes, a set of parallel lines in and out, each about 24" wide. So, the rider has to ride under the overhang, into the "bullpen" area and in a circle in full view of all the business ongoing at the DMV, and back out the way he came, while the test/inspector watched with clipboard in hand.

 

And, THIS RIDER rider was riding an 1100cc retired police bike, that didn't look all that "retired". It must have been a hell of a spectacle, i.e. there were about 100 sets of eyeballs glued to the windows on three sides of the course. :cry:

 

The test officer told me that I had one practice run, and if I touched a foot down during the test or ran outside of the double white lines, the test was over - I had failed. I had run the test the previous night using cones and the requirement was simple - lock the handle bars against the tank when I started the turn, and counterbalance to steer all the way around the circle twice. I had to "sight" down the middle of the white lines and hope the front wheel was between them, again, because I couldn't see the white lines beneath the plastics of the RT. I started the practice run, got 1/3 into the circle, and promptly lost power and put my foot down to stop a tip-over. I looked up at the windows, back at the test officer, and had the biggest bout of stage fright since I was about 12 years old, when I forgot my lines ran crying out of a church play. :rofl:

 

I thought "sixty friggin days I've waited for this damn test, I'm sure as heck NOT going to put my foot down again". Short story long, I returned to the starting line, revved up the engine, burned the clutch, and powered through that course from beginning to end. I was sure I'd failed, but when I returned, the lady said "nope, you're good...".

 

"Now for the serpentine course ...". The WHAaaaaat?

 

What the notes I read the previous evening did not say was that the California course required a SECOND trip through the circle, weaving through 5 cones spaced 12" apart on the approach and upon return, which is a heck of a difficult thing to do on a 600 lb BMW RTP. Again, she gave me a practice run, and again, my foot went down on about the 3rd cone, as I lost control of the weight of the bike.

 

Then I thought to myself "DIRT BIKE MODE!!" and then "RAMMING SPEED!!!". I returned to the starting point, revved up the bike, stood on the pegs, and maneuvered into the course, through the cones, around the circle twice, and back out, smoke pouring from the engine, brakes, and wheels.

 

Test passed! :thumbsup: I looked up, and saw a 100 sets of hands inside the windows clapping. :dopeslap:

 

As I dragged my tired and emotionally worn out butt back into the building to complete the licensing paperwork, I heard one guy saying to another as they walked out the door past me, "Oh my God, did you see that guy? I had no idea that cops had to qualify at the DMV, too! It was like something from a motorcycle rodeo.... ".

 

I held my head up high, and then quickly covered that head with my jacket, and walked meekly to the checkout line.

 

- Scott

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In my area, none of the motorcycle dealers (that I personally know of) , be it BMW, Harley, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, etc will allow any test rides or other riding of ANY motorcycle without a valid & current motorcycle endorsement.

Same just about everywhere I've been. In today's world I would expect this to be a basic business requirement of running any motorcycle dealership regardless of whether it is required by statute or not, just to protect against liability.

 

Would imagine it's also the law in most states. In Oregon it is illegal to provide a vehicle to an unlicensed person. So if you let someone take a test ride that did not have an endorsement, the salesperson could also be cited.

I can imagine a situation where an unlicensed person can buy a vehicle with no intention of driving it. Disabled or elderly perhaps. Or grandma buying a motorcycle for a grand-kid.

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Which is why we regulate the age to operate but not to own. (In general)

 

Sold more than a few surprise bikes that were gifts.

 

 

Slippery slope wrt salesperson/dealership and liability.

 

Low number of incidents.

 

Bars/tenders/waitress any alcohol server, many incidents of DUI/accidents.

Which should be a higher priority for Society wrt liability?

Which has the higher economic cost?

 

Maybe we need an Alcohol Card?

A gov't issued ID that proves we can purchase that tracks our purchase via uploads.

Must present card, every purchase, all recorded.

 

Then when joe Alkyhaulassik hits your vehicle we can go back and track the alcohol purchases and hold those who sold him liable

too,

:lurk:

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Low number of incidents.

Probably, and this is a factor often overlooked among the hand-wringing. Before we enact news laws, how many incidents like this are there per year? Perhaps more like one per multiple years, and would any amount of new laws really lower that number?

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Low number of incidents.

Probably, and this is a factor often overlooked among the hand-wringing. Before we enact news laws, how many incidents like this are there per year? Perhaps more like one per multiple years, and would any amount of new laws really lower that number?

Well, here is one more.

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Well, here is one more.

I was referring to cases where a rider was seriously injured or killed. And even in the above case, all the new-rider MSF training in the world (on the oft-provided 250cc trainer bike) probably wouldn't have prevented that. Hmmm, maybe we should stipulate that training must be on a bike similar to that being purchased (with bunches of paperwork to prove it), to make the expense and training bar even higher. I mean, it would have saved him a bruised hip and some pride so it must be worth the administrative burden, right? OK, that's sarcastic, but you get the idea... if riders were being slaughtered right and left by the lack of a law regulating who dealers sell bikes to then I'd be first to agree that there should be some regulation... but are they? What is the real scope of the 'problem'?

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For me, and I stated earlier that I am NOT a fan of legislation to regulate a grown mans everyday life, I think that there is ALREADY a law that it is illegal to operate any vehicle you are not licensed to operate...IE I can not drive a big rig because I do not have a Class A license...I can not fly an airplane {at least without a licensed pilot next to me} because I do not have a pilots license....

 

It is illegal already to ride a MC without a class M1 endorsement on my drivers license. Why is it legal for a dealer to hand me {well not me, because I have an M1 and have had one since they called them a Class 4 back in the mid 80's} a set of keys to operate a motorcycle if I am not qualified to operate one?

 

I GUARANTEE you if a pilot handed the keys to his plane over to just anyone on the street and that guy crashed that plane, or even just got caught flying it without a license, the plane owner would be in big trouble for his role.

 

To me, simply applying the existing law of operating without a license could, and possibly should put the dealership at some sort of liability.

 

There has been concern expressed about this slippery slope being applied to things like bars and car accidents by drunks...that has already been established and is enforced at times in the case of neglegence. But drinking is not illegal and neither is drinking and driving...just driving OVER a certain BAC level. Driving a vehicle you are not licensed to drive is ALWAYS illegal and that COULD be enforced to dealerships who hand keys to one of these fools who walk in and buy a Ninja with little to no experience and are not licensed to do so.

 

ADD: If a person buys a bike and has a licensed buddy ride it off the lot that, to me, would shift the dealers liability to that buddy. A dealer riding it to the persons home, or delivering it is iffy also. I think a licensed rider needs to take delivery of any bike, even used, and that person could have some liability in handing over keys to any unlicensed person.

 

I have had officers check my sparky and my insurance card but never look at my license for my M1 endorsement. I have ridden with guys who do not have an M1 and have been checked for a sparky and asked if they have insurance..YES, off we went....LEO's...check ID and write that ticket more, maybe that will discourage unlicensed riders....make MSF courses cheaper or reimburse for them by dealers or insurance companies. Something. I do not have the actual answer, but inexperienced people should not be able to hop on a crotch rocket and hit the crowded hiways...

Edited by kmac
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Sometimes I guess you are just lucky or in this case very unlucky. In 1968 at age 20, I walked into a Triumph dealer and bought my first motorcycle, a Bonneville 650 and I had never ridden before at all. They sold me the bike no questions asked and I rode it out of the showroom and somehow managed not to kill myself or anyone else while I learned how to ride the machine. I was a lucky one I guess.

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At least preface your link that it's a cheap plug to your own opinionated article.

 

Danny, we here at BMWST are often called "Mr Roger's Neighborhood". This is due in part because comments framed in such disrespectful terms as yours above are not permitted here.

 

Andy

 

Thank you, Andy. That was published in Backroads Magazine in May 2007. This may come as a news flash to some, but the whole point of an op-ed piece is to share one's opinion. Moving past the obvious, it's been 6 years since I wrote that, and since then some states have adopted the European model of graduated (tiered) licensing, despite the predictable howl of the dealers and all the rest with a vested financial interest in making sure anyone can buy anything at any time with no standards whatsoever applied.

 

Unfortunately, as usual, I cannot point to any hard data yet, since I have not seen any posted, as to whether it has been effective or not. Anecdotally, of course, it logically follows that if you follow a system which is safer than your own (measured by riders per X number killed or injured per mile per registered population) that you, too, should experience the same benefits.

 

Our bikes come from Germany. As far as I'm concerned our licensing model for motorcycles could learn alot from the same country.

 

-MKL

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... it logically follows that if you follow a system which is safer than your own (measured by riders per X number killed or injured per mile per registered population) that you, too, should experience the same benefits.

I've just spent a while trying to look for data detailing motorcycle accident rates in the US vs. Germany (or compared to any other country for that matter) and I haven't been able to find anything meaningful, meaning any kind of apples-apples comparison. In fact even within a country such statistics vary quite a bit depending on the methodology used. How do we know much 'safer' one country is over another?

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Seth-

 

In preparing for that article I unearthed some data of Germany's rate of deaths and injuries vs. total motorcycles registered, against ours, for a given year. If I can find my notes I will post them here with sources - I know I've got them somewhere. Suffice it to say, Germany's rate was substantially below ours. I summarize why in the aforementioned article.

 

-MKL

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...... BTW, I was not suggesting that if a person learns to ride in the dirt that they are now safe and will not crash on the street. My suggestion is merely that being out in a big soft dirt field or desert learing to control all of the various functions and the ineviteable few drops early on is a much better place to learn those fundamentals rather than pulling out into a busy street.

 

This is what I tell the folks who ask me about getting into MC riding. I always ask about their experience level; if they'd ever ridden, or if they're a re-entry rider and if so how long an absence from the last time.

 

I tell 'em to peruse Craigslist or some other venue for used dirt bikes instead of a street bike but that advice tends to go over like a lead balloon.

 

I think that people look at other riders and think it's easy to do. They simply don't realize all the little things, and some big things, that go into riding.

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Like Seth, I too am interested to see some meaningful apples-apples comparative data and frankly doubt the existance of any. From my own reading, I've noticed a tendancy for the various highway/traffic safety authorities to collect a rather limited data set that tends to prove one or more predisposition rather than collecting a very rich data set and subjecting it to wider and deeper analysis.

 

Not saying such data does not exist ... just saying I'll be surpised upon reading any such.

 

So, when you get the chance, Moshe, please provide your reference.

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Part of the problem is that while additional training may sound like a no-brainer (or at least "it has to help some") there is at the same time a real cost to the additional requirements. In many areas where tiered licensing or mandatory training exists the program has morphed into a very expensive and time-consuming burden for the applicant. If applicants are going to be required to submit to the requirements then it seems reasonable that we first verify a real and tangible benefit, and one that sufficiently validates the additional cost and burden. The mere fact that some training is probably better than no training is not in itself a blanket justification for hundreds of dollars in mandatory training expenses, delays and wasted time (which also costs money) on the part of the applicant. In order to justify these there needs to be a clear and demonstrable value to the requirements, and on a level that justifies the burden of satisfying them. In most instances I'm not sure that such research was ever done or will be done, rather there are only subjective assumptions made as to the real-world value (or as Craig noted, data was cherry-picked to meet a pre-determined outcome.) And that's simply not good enough.

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Part of the problem, which I lament in several articles, is the lack of any good data or report in this country since Hurt. It's been decades - driver distraction, road conditions, and even the types of vehicles most people drive or ride since has changes so much, that the report can only be called woefully outdated.

 

The Europeans have MAIDS, and it might be possible for Americans to gather some meaningful data from there. That said, I have an anecdotal challenge - we're stuck with anecdotal here because, after all, any report anyone cites will be called biased or cherry picked by SOMEBODY - so here's the challenge:

 

Find me an American who has ridden or driven in first world Europe with a reasonable amount of experience, who prefers riding or driving here (strictly in terms of other drivers' behavior).

 

Conversely, find me a European who has ridden or driven here with a reasonable amount of experience, who prefers riding or driving here (strictly in terms of other drivers' behavior).

 

We all know where that's headed...

 

-MKL

 

PS - My office moved and with it, my notes. I'm still searching for the article I used as reference re Germany's licensing standards. Seth brought up cost, which is VERY significant in Germany vs. the licensing fee here.

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I'm taking the German driver's test on Thursday. It's over 150 questions (T/F and multiple choice) covering just about every aspect of their driving regulations. Once passed, the German citizen has to take a driving test while being followed by the text examiner to ensure all rules are followed. It costs a German citizen over 1500 euros (just over $2,000) to take this test. Fortunately, it only costs me $10.00 and I do not have to have a chase vehicle follow me for a practical test. If a German citizen fails, the price goes up to 2,000 euros. Driving over here is definitely a privilege versus a 'right'.

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Armyguy, I'm ASSuming you had a license here. Tell us - is it harder to obtain a license over there, .i.e., do you feel that the standards are higher? Have you ridden there? Can you comment on the differences in driver behavior?

 

-MKL

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Find me an American who has ridden or driven in first world Europe with a reasonable amount of experience, who prefers riding or driving here (strictly in terms of other drivers' behavior).

 

Conversely, find me a European who has ridden or driven here with a reasonable amount of experience, who prefers riding or driving here (strictly in terms of other drivers' behavior).

But that's just the point. Such things might might make for an interesting thought experiment but certainly nothing on which to base a whole new set of regulations and requirements. Nor do we know if there's really any correlation between licensing requirements and driver behavior as there are a host of other cultural differences that may be more likely to account for such behavioral variations. And in any event maybe I'd rather deal with a few numskulls on the highway once in a while (something which happens everywhere, BTW) than deal with a $2,000 cost and who-knows-how-many-months to obtain a license. It's very easy to fall into a cure that is worse than the disease.

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And in any event maybe I'd rather deal with a few numskulls on the highway once in a while (something which happens everywhere, BTW) than deal with a $2,000 cost and who-knows-how-many-months to obtain a license. It's very easy to fall into a cure that is worse than the disease.

 

well said there.

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Armyguy, I'm ASSuming you had a license here. Tell us - is it harder to obtain a license over there, .i.e., do you feel that the standards are higher? Have you ridden there? Can you comment on the differences in driver behavior?

 

-MKL

 

There are several on the board more qualified than me to answer. In my 6 trips to europe visiting about 20 countries I have found that generally the drivers and riders over there are more skilled. Others have noted the cost of training. They follow most rules in most countries or pay a very high price. They drive fast but have the skills to justify/they pass and pull back in as opposed to what we see here. I smile within a few miles on my first day of riding in europe.

 

Are some of them a bit crazy in some places, hell yes.

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Armyguy, I'm ASSuming you had a license here. Tell us - is it harder to obtain a license over there, .i.e., do you feel that the standards are higher? Have you ridden there? Can you comment on the differences in driver behavior?

 

-MKL

 

I've had a motor and car license since 1985 in the states. After the test on Thursday, I'll let you know. I don't know if it is harder to obtain a license over here but it seems a lot more effort is put into becoming a driver. Along with the test we have about three hours of classroom instruction from the local DMV regarding regulations and driving. There does seem to be less aggressive behavior while driving but it may be just my jet-lagged view.

 

Mike

Edited by ArmyGuy
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Moshe,

 

Used to be a bunch of differences.

Cost

Time

Having to pay for a real eye exam

having to hire a professional driver and drive X number of hours: city/rural/night/day/inclement weather

having a meaningful first aid componenet

failure to pass resulted in more Time, more Money, etc.

 

As far as data and tiered licensing, the only stuff I found was Canadian based comparing different provinces.

But that was several years ago and it took digging.

Someone else can...

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russell_bynum
Low number of incidents.

Probably, and this is a factor often overlooked among the hand-wringing. Before we enact news laws, how many incidents like this are there per year? Perhaps more like one per multiple years, and would any amount of new laws really lower that number?

 

Since when do we do sensible things like that?

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As far as data and tiered licensing, the only stuff I found was Canadian based comparing different provinces.

But that was several years ago and it took digging.

Someone else can...

Which makes me wonder... why is it so friggin' hard to find any clear/decisive studies on this subject? Surely before various jurisdictions passed laws requiring hundreds or thousands of dollars of fees for training (among other various hoops) they first determined whether there was sufficient benefit to justify the burden, right?

 

Right..?

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You would think the insurance industry would want such studies done with regularity, say every 10 years or so. Or, hmmm, maybe they don't ;)

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Surely before various jurisdictions passed laws requiring hundreds or thousands of dollars of fees...they first determined whether there was sufficient benefit to justify the burden, right?

Crap Diet Coke out the nostrils!!! :rofl: Doesn't matter who you are, that's just funny.

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The Compulsory training element was introduced into our area in 1997 and the KSI figures went down by 66% in the younger rider age group . The graduated licence scheme saw a further drop across broader riding age groups .

 

I teach motorcycling and am amazed by parents and students reactions to being told that they have not reached the required standard to ride as usually they have not grasped the concepts of riding on the roads .

 

They can get quite agressive and often complain of training being a money making racket. I usuallly ask them this question if they complain or throw the teddy.

 

Who would you blame if i let your son / daughter/ partner leave here without having sufficent knowledge or skillls to survive on the roads and they kill or injure themselves because i passed them without having attained the required standard?

 

I realise that having to pay for more training is often difficult but whats the trade off.

 

Whilst i agree with comments about dirt bike riders having good control and experience of motorcycling techniques they are usually the worst students on the road as they tend to treat the roads like dirt tracks and ride too quickly with feet down round corners etc . These skills are fine on dirt but need to be left off road.

 

Its a trade off between dealers / manufacturers wanting to sell the bikes and the motorcycling community being legislated out of existence . I for one am glad

that my son and daughter had to go down the graduated licence route as it taught them the skills needed without the unrestricted power of a larger capacity bike.

Edited by KLC
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Who would you blame if i let your son / daughter/ partner leave here without having sufficent knowledge or skillls to survive on the roads and they kill or injure themselves because i passed them without having attained the required standard?

 

Awesome question.

 

 

 

Whilst i agree with comments about dirt bike riders having good control and experience of motorcycling techniques they are usually the worst students on the road as they tend to treat the roads like dirt tracks and ride too quickly with feet down round corners etc . These skills are fine on dirt but need to be left off road.

 

 

I agree with MX guys possibly being bad students. I have never put my feet down on the road though. I AM guilty of riding quickly though ;)

I think even an experienced dirt person should take an MSF type course and pay close attention while in it. But I still think dirt time is the best base a person can have.

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