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TPS Alignment, Idle Speed Adjustment: Beyond Zero=Zero


roger 04 rt

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roger 04 rt

Although I'm not a fan of adjusting the throttle stop screws or TPS, since they're factory calibrated (mine are untouched and are in spec). Many motorcycles have already been altered using the zero=zero procedure (and there may be wear beyond adjustable BBS limits) creating a need to restore either setting. What follows is a work in process based on what was learned in Trail'R's Thread: GS-911 Error Code Question - Lambda Sensor Related . Comments and questions are welcomed.

 

There are three conditions that need to be satisfied at Idle speed for the Motronic, TPS and throttle to be aligned:

 

1. The TPS must be registered to the Motronic.

2. The engine must be warm and functioning in Closed Loop (or on the R1100 European version without catalytic converter, set idle CO to 1.5% using the CO Pot).

3. The Idle speed must be set to spec (e.g. 1100 RPM, +/- 50).

 

I'm not going to provide all the details (e.g. explain how to work the throttle stop-nuts), just the essential steps for #1 and #3 above.

 

1. TPS

 

The best method for setting the TPS does not involve a voltmeter since the purpose is to align (register) the TPS to the Motronic; therefore you need an output from the Motronic to know you've got it right. The TPS voltage is an interesting byproduct of the correct procedure.

 

R1100

The diagnostic connector has a TPS calibration pin. You can read about it in a few places:

A) http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?73700-Oldie-but-goody-R1150RT-surging&p=948289&viewfull=1#post948289

B) http://www.largiader.com/articles/motronic.html

C) http://www.k11og.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2110&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

R1150

A GS-911 is needed to check that the TPS signal is within range but from measurements on my bike if the voltage at idle is 0.35 to 0.38, the Motronic can register it with the following procedure. The exact voltage does not matter.

A) Remove Fuse 5 (or disconnect battery ground) for 5 minutes, then replace fuse.

B) Key On

C) Fully rotate throttle twice

D) Key Off

 

3. Idle Speed

Refer to this thread for the reason why Idle Speed is important to the Motronic: (starting here, Idle Speed for Correct Mixture).

 

The procedure below is so that TPS and idle speed don't interact. You may need a fan for cooling. Also it is important to have clean TBs and cable slack during adjustment. Cable slack re-adjusted per book when finished.

 

A) Fully warm up the motorcycle and have a fan for cooling. Throttle bodies and BBS airways must be clean. Loosen left and right cable adjusters for 2 mm slack to insure throttles stay on stops.

 

B) Remove the TPS but leave it plugged in to the harness. Set it to the idle position using the Motronic procedure outlined above in #1 (Diag Connector for R1100; TPS learn before removal, then GS-911 set to 0.32 degrees for R1150). (You could measure with DVM to learn the approximate voltage before removal.) By doing this, no matter what you do with the throttle stops, the Motronic will see IDLE input from the TPS and interaction is eliminated.

 

C) Set the BBSs to 1.5 turns, whatever is considered the neutral position.

 

D) Perform a TB sync & Idle Speed adjustment using the throttle stops and get as close as you can to idle spec. Then use BBS for final fine tuning. It is imperative that the idle speed is exactly the book value (1100 +/- 50 rpm for the R1150). Because the TPS is removed, it did not vary while you adjusted idle.

 

E) Attach the TPS to the left TB and set per procedure outlined in point 2 above.

 

When completed you will have the TPS registered, BBS at about 1.5 turns and the motor idling at spec (1100 RPM on an R1150).

RB

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Just a couple of thoughts to keep in mind if a person needs to embark on this procedure to bring back to factory spec.

 

1. Make sure the internal TB passages are clean and smooth with no carbon accumulation.

2. Remove BBS and make sure it is clean before adjusting the stops.

3. Confirm that there are no other air leaks in the system. Look at o-rings and TB shaft wear as the typical culprits.

4. When introducing cable slack, remember to re-balance the cables so both TB's close to the stops at the same time before final TB sync.

 

I am glad my bikes are still at the stock setting.

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roger 04 rt

Critique of Zero=Zero

 

As I mentioned at the start of the thread, I'm not a fan of adjusting the TB Idle Stop screws but if you're considering zero=zero, or if someone has previously run zero=zero on your Oilhead, there are some issues with that procedure worth knowing. First, as I described at the start of this thread, the TPS may not be correctly registered to the Motronic because setting the TPS to a particular voltage does not have a specific meaning to the Motronic (it has a signal to tell you when the TPS is set correctly). Second, the throttle is left opened too far by the zero=zero procedure.

 

Here are some facts about the TPS sensor from the Bosch data sheet.

1) It has two precision potentiometers inside. One is for smaller throttle angles, the other used from mid-range through WOT. It is the same part on R1100 and R1150. Data sheet here: Throttle Position Sensor (Bosch 0 280 122 201).

 

2) The finer range goes from zero to 23 degrees and varies by 187.5 mV per degree of rotation. That means each 20 mV is only 0.1 degrees. (An adjustment from 360 mV and 380 mV is almost too small for the Motronic to measure, and certainly has no effect.)

 

3) The finer range has a divider ratio of 0.05:1 at zero degrees, which is about 250 mV.

 

Point 3) has serious implications for the Lentini zero=zero procedure. It directs you to set the TPS to 10 mV at fully closed throttle. Based on the TPS spec, it should be set to 250 mV. Next zero=zero directs you to adjust the throttle stop screw until the TPS is 370 mV to 400mV. That means the throttle is opened 1.9 to 2.1 degrees as you adjust the throttle stop.

 

If we assume that the Motronic is looking for approximately 350 mV (based on the GS-911 TPS checker) or 385 mV (based on zero=zero), or 360 mV by my calculation, and that the TPS spec is 250 mV for zero degrees rotation, then the Motronic is expecting that the throttle is only open 0.5 degrees to 0.7 degrees when the throttle is on the stop. (350-400 mV minus 250 mV at zero, divided by 187.5 mV per degree of rotation.) On the R1150, the GS-911 reads 0.32 degrees from the Motronic after TPS cal, that would suggest that my estimate of 0.5-0.7 degrees is too high but compared to the 2 degrees of throttle opening produced by the zero=zero procedure, it is at least closer.

 

The only conclusion you can reach is that zero=zero opens the throttle about 1.5 degrees too far when on the stop, and that it is always open 1.5 degrees more than the Motronic measures. The consequences of this: the Motronic will output less fuel in the first few degrees, meaning it runs lean, a condition fixed later by mixture adaptation (consuming some of the adaptation range needlessly). Also, since the throttle has been opened too far by zero=zero, the BBS screws have to be closed down to compensate, which I believe is why some find that after using the zero=zero procedure, they cannot reduce their idle sufficiently.

 

As I said at the outset of this thread, it is a work in process. I hope there is someone with an R1100 who will be able to make some measurements, feel free to PM me if you'd like to help.

 

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Thanks for the tips Roger, I'll give this a go when I get a chance. Someone has fiddled with the stop screws on my 96 R1100RT. It was idling at 2K rpm when I got it and had nail polish on the stop screws. I got it down to around 1250 when hot and the BBS are almost closed. I should mention that I've rebuilt the TB's with kits from cata dan, replaced the rubber and all that hardware seems ok now.

 

If I understand correctly I should try this procedure:

1. Slack off cables, Remove TPS, insert LED.

2. Adjust TPS so LED just goes off.

3. Adjust sync using stop screws for 1100 rpm.

4. Fine adjust idle speed/sync with BBS.

5. Re-Attach TPS and set it for LED just off.

6. Sync TB cables at around 3K rpm.

 

Sounds like a plan :)

 

 

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roger 04 rt

Hi Robin, as this is a work in progress, I'd like to add some comments:

 

--someone tested the led for me. The led is ON at idle and OFF just off idle (pin 3 grounded)

 

To set it for testing I would rotate the wiper from the back side, counterclockwise gently until the led was out. Then rotate clockwise until the led just came on. If you can, measure the voltage and let us know, it should be between 340 and 390 mV.

 

--after some additional thought, I would start with the BBS open by 2 turns (BBS and TB clean). This will lead to a smaller throttle angle when the throttles are on the stops.

 

I don't really know the center of the BBS range but I now think 2 turns is closer than 1.5.

 

Let us know how it goes.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Morning Robin

 

Not trying to interfere between you & Roger.

 

Just a thought then I'll go away.---If you don't have a proper CCP in the bike, or have the CCP removed but don't have an idle trim pot installed, then they go rich at idle & will idle pretty darn fast even with the BBS bottomed out.

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roger 04 rt

DR, Thank you for this addition. It will idle fast with no coding plug.

 

It's a good point, he should confirm the coding plug installed and that there is an o2 sensor.

 

Interestingly a friend with a 2000 RT, after z=z, with coding plug and o2 had a similarly fast idle that he brought down a year ago, on his own, but had to tweak the throttle stops.

 

I would also add the good point you made to me that it is most important that the throttles lift off the stop and reach wot at the same moment.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Something never addressed on surging issues is the contribution of the TPS potentiometer. It is a tiny consumer device with some incomplete accuracy specifications, subject to wear, and of limited life.

 

The throttle plates are very large for an engine of this displacement which means a lot happens in just the first few degrees of throttle opening. I have had experience with industrial film pots in cyclic applications. They really didn't perform or last very well. Too bad we don't have an optical encoder for the TPS.

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Ok so LED just ON is idle.

 

There is a blue plug on this R1100RT but no O2 sensor.

There was no O2 sensor on the R1100RS I had last year either.

We prolly get EU version bikes down here.

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roger 04 rt
Ok so LED just ON is idle.

 

There is a blue plug on this R1100RT but no O2 sensor.

There was no O2 sensor on the R1100RS I had last year either.

We prolly get EU version bikes down here.

 

If you have a EU bike with no catalytic converter and no O2 sensor then you should have a CO Pot (a potentiometer for regulating the mixture at idle. The idea is to adjust that pot until the CO level is 1.5%.

 

Can you identify the CO pot?

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Yes I found the CO pot but I have nothing to measure CO levels and can't start it at the moment even though the tupperware is off.

 

Went for a 500Km run this morning only to have the sight glass blow out just before I went up the mountain out of town. Tow Truck home, parts ordered :(

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roger 04 rt
Yes I found the CO pot but I have nothing to measure CO levels and can't start it at the moment even though the tupperware is off.

 

Went for a 500Km run this morning only to have the sight glass blow out just before I went up the mountain out of town. Tow Truck home, parts ordered :(

Sorry to hear about the blowout. Bummer.

 

Since you have a CO Pot, check its position and note it. If it is not set to an extreme but is partway through the range, run the procedure with it as is.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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500Km in a morning!

Yeah, isn't a 7 hours run before breakfast normal :grin:

 

 

Roger, I'll have a look once the new window shows up and I get the bike washed down. The whole left side of the bike is more or less dripping oil. I doubt the pot has been fiddled with, it's not in an obvious spot.

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500Km in a morning!

Yeah, isn't a 7 hours run before breakfast normal :grin:

 

 

Roger, I'll have a look once the new window shows up and I get the bike washed down. The whole left side of the bike is more or less dripping oil. I doubt the pot has been fiddled with, it's not in an obvious spot.

Where do they hide it? I have a R850R with no cat or O2 sensor, so I wondered where the CO pot is.

 

Andy

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Morning Andy

 

Not exactly sure on the 850 but probably should be the same as the 1100.

 

L/H side (see pix) COpot2_zps6a68ceec.jpg

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There is a cluster of connectors on the left side in line with the adjuster for the front seat but under the tupperware on this RT. Come up from under that cluster and there is the pot. Clear as mud :)

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This is excellent information. I have a '961100RT which I did the z=z on (before I found out not to do it) and I've also had to center the throttle plates on both. The other feature I have to deal with, but hopefully this will help sort out, is I have different TB's. right side is for a GS and has a larger BBS. I might have a go at this either this weekend or the next and let you know how it goes.

 

Thanks much for your effort here Roger!

 

Tom

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nortonbrian

Roger, your post on idle speed was of interest to me as my 2002 1150RT has always had a high idle. The throttle stops had been adjusted for zero_zero previously by the last owner, and I have got pretty good at going through that procedure but with poor results. I can follow your procedures OK up to setting the tps off the throttle body.I don't have a G911(?) tool, can I set the tps without one? And where does the use of the led come in?

I am anxious to try this and get the idle correct and the bike running good. Thank you for your time and effort in sharing this information with us.

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roger 04 rt
Roger, your post on idle speed was of interest to me as my 2002 1150RT has always had a high idle. The throttle stops had been adjusted for zero_zero previously by the last owner, and I have got pretty good at going through that procedure but with poor results. I can follow your procedures OK up to setting the tps off the throttle body.I don't have a G911(?) tool, can I set the tps without one? And where does the use of the led come in?

I am anxious to try this and get the idle correct and the bike running good. Thank you for your time and effort in sharing this information with us.

 

The key point is that during the readjustment, the Motronic sees a signal that the TPS is at the idle position. Here is a way to do it on the R1150 (only) without the GS-911, before beginning the procedure:

 

1) Get the TPS into the learnable range by setting the voltage between pins 1 and 4 to 370 mV. (I know this voltage to be in the learnable range.)

 

2) Pull fuse 5 for 10 minutes and then replace it.

 

3) Key on, rotate throttle fully twice, key off.

 

4) When the bike is warmed up and you are ready to adjust the throttle stops, remove the TPS and carefully set it to 370 mV, then run the procedure.

 

When you've finished, reinstall the TPS, set it to 370 mV, pull fuse 5 again for 10 minutes, reinstall, key on, fully rotate throttle twice, key off. You're done.

 

370 mV isn't a magic number, just a point that is solidly within the R1150's learnable range.

 

No LED is needed because the Motronic for R1150 learns the TPS idle position.

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Roger, I got my sight window and fresh oil installed and gave the R1100RT a bath.

 

The idle LED is ON only between .327mV and .386mV as measured with my Fluke meter on my TPS. Getting the LED to light by manually adjusting the wiper on the TPS is a real challenge but can be done. I burnt up a lot of time figuring out there is a range involved and without a meter on the TPS, landing the wiper within that range will be very difficult, increments are tiny.

 

I have the bike synced and idling at 1100 rpm but it's coughing randomly, not what I'd call a smooth idle. But it's almost beer O'Clock here and I have to go out tonight so it's all stop till tomorrow. :)

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roger 04 rt

Robin, Interesting, thanks for getting back with some data.

 

Were you measuring between pins 1 and 4 of the TPS? I assume you were.

 

I hadn't thought about it but since each 20 mV is 0.1 degrees, yes, setting the TPS is a challenge. The angular movement from 327 to 386 mV, a range of 60 mV, is only 0.3 degrees. That 0.3 degrees is a movement of about 5 thousandths of an inch at the perimeter of the TPS.

 

I'd like to digress for a moment. Given that the LED is only on within that range, and given that it is a tiny angular movement, I have a thought (contrary to everything you read) that the Motronic MA 2.2 is satisfied by any voltage in that range. It may even "learn" the lowest voltage it ever sees within that range and call it 0.32 degrees, just like the MA 2.4 on the 1150.

 

The rough running doesn't concern me at the moment. If you have the TBs and BBS screws and passages clean, if you have good spark plugs and wires, and if you have good equal compression (and I assume you do), mixture is most likely the culprit. Since you have had too much air at idle, and you have now reduce the air, it is most likely idling with too much fuel. You bike is configured with no O2 so the Motronic can't help fix the mixture.

 

What I would do is to first take careful note of the CO pot position, mark it if you can. Then try and smooth out your rough idle by adjusting it. You should get a change. If you can I would simply find the spot where it idles best.

RB

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On my way to bed, what a bunch of piss heads. I stayed on the beer and avoided the margaritas :)

 

I was measuring between earth (-ve) and pin 4 (red on the TPS)

 

I also believe it learns as I altered the TPS position, switched off/on ignition and it again showed the LED ON then OFF with the slightest Throttle tap.

 

Forget the stumbling, it's missing, needs new plugs or leads. It has iridium plugs but they obviously need to be replaced, at least. I've spent more time under this pig than on it.

 

A friend of mine is head mechanic at a local suzuki dealer. I'll see if he has a portable CO analyser. I know he has a dyno with one built into that but no harm in asking.

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roger 04 rt
... I also believe it learns as I altered the TPS position, switched off/on ignition and it again showed the LED ON then OFF with the slightest Throttle tap.

 

...

 

Thanks for that feedback.

 

I've also since learned (thanks DR) that the CO pot is multi-turn. Turning it out (CCW) leans the mixture. Turning it inward (CW) or removing it is full rich. On another R1100 I measured the AFR at full rich. A warm bike is 11.9-12-4:1 with no CO pot.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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roger 04 rt
Ok so LED just ON is idle.

 

There is a blue plug on this R1100RT but no O2 sensor.

There was no O2 sensor on the R1100RS I had last year either.

We prolly get EU version bikes down here.

 

Robin since you have no catalytic converter and are running an RT, I think you would be better off without the Blue Plug.

 

See the charts below, No Coding Plug is the appropriate R1100RT, No Cat configuration. The way you are it may not be paying attention to the CO Pot.

 

frenchcodingplug.jpg

 

IMG_4181.JPG

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Roger, I had a closer look at this blue plug, it's empty, there are no connections/pins in it, it's just a blanking plug.

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roger 04 rt
Roger, I had a closer look at this blue plug, it's empty, there are no connections/pins in it, it's just a blanking plug.

 

Hadn't seen one of those. No Plug (or a Blue one with no pins in your case) is the right config.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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roger 04 rt

But on second thought, it is probably best to remove the Blue plug since it serves no function and I'd like to be positive that there's nothing in it.

 

The real blue plug is as simple as something like this inside (photo courtesy of DR):

 

CCP_zpsbf10e8f3.png

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Afternoon guys, I have been following this thread,and it has been very interesting...I have the original Zero-Zero procedure printed out,and have finally got the two correct part number throttle bodies for my 1100...I plan to do the procedure yet again either tomorrow,or one day next week...Guess my question here is...do I use that procedure? I have a Fluke 77 DVM,and mercury gauges...

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Hey Rodger,...you know of StepToe from the other site.

Hey you contacted him to see what his take is on this subject?

He had posted much about this like 10+ years ago at ADV Rider and UKGSer.

Having had someone who's already been down this road could really be an asset.

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Afternoon n5926g

 

In case Roger doesn't get here before you plan to start working--

 

0=0 is not the best route to take but it is better than starting with the

TB's w-a-y out of whack.

 

If your TB idle stop screws still have the original paint markings,

and they haven't been moved, then I suggest you don't do a 0=0.

 

No matter what you do, or plan to do, make sure you have clean BBS screw

tips & that the BBS air passages are squeaky clean (this needs to be correct

to get a good even base-idle balance starting point).

 

Then it's your choice to use a voltmeter to set the TPS or use Rogers suggested

method above. (personally I still use the voltmeter as it gives me the highest

TPS setting that will return to under .4 volts (always). The LED method might

be just as good & it seems reasonable to assume that will put the TPS setting

in the (accepted range).

 

In any case-- if your new (used) TB's still have usable paint marks then install

them & (with choke OFF) set the TPS to .380 volts (or close anyhow). Also make darn

sure you have some throttle cable slack at the TB pulleys)

 

Then start the engine & warm it up to operating temp. (use fans to keep air blowing

on the engine)

 

Then set the BBS to 1-1/2 turn out from lightly seated & see what your idle RPM

& balance is. If close then see if you can get the correct idle RPM & a decent balance.

 

I see you have mercury gauges?-- Those will get you close to start with but most

of us that do precision TB balance work use a liquid manometer as those are WAY more

precision than inches of Hg. (1" of mercury = about 13.5" of water). I usually set to

under 2" of water & that isn't even a seeable blip on a mercury gauge.

 

If you can get a decent idle balance & decent idle RPM without moving the factory

panted idle screws then do so.

 

When you have the idle RPM & balance close then go back & set the TPS to .390v or

use Rogers LED method above.

 

If you can't get the idle balance & idle RPM correct with the TB's as received

then you will have to move the base idle screws & recheck/reset or do a 0=0.

 

Even if you start with a 0=0 you will more than likely have to tweak the idle screws

a little to get it to have the BBS @ the correct turns out & a decent curb idle RPM.

(basically 0=0 usually adds extra work & no real gain) BUT 0=0 can give you

an even cross-side starting point if you aren't familiar with adjusting the base idle

using the stop screws with the BBS @ 1-1/2 turns out.

 

In any case-- no matter how you choose to do it just MAKE SURE you ALWAYS check & re-set

the TPS to .380-.390 volts if/or/when you EVER move the L/H TB idle stop screw.

(or us the LED to reset as that should keep it in usable range )

 

As a check--It is very/very important to verify the TB cams lift off the idle stop

screws at exactly the same time & do hit the wide open stops at EXACTY

the same time when using the twist grip (very important)

 

There is more but this is enough to get you started. Anything more & you should start your

own thread on your problem so we can follow up on it without disrupting this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1100TB_marked_zps3f28262c.jpg

Edited by dirtrider
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Thanks DR!.. as a matter of fact the paint IS still in-tact,and I haven't touched the stop screws.The TB,s came with a TPS..They were kinda dirty,but some TB cleaner did the job.I have noticed that my "fast Idle" lever has no effect on the TB plates,and I "assume" that when the Fast idle lever is activated,it is supposed to "crack the plates" a small amount to get the desired effect.I have dis-assembled the Bowden box,and checked the cables,as well as the cable from the lever to the box,and at this point the cable adjuster is almost all the way out,and still,no movement on the TB cable cams...Air screws were nasty...I turned them in to seated,and counted the turns,removed them ,and cleaned the screws,and ports...re-installed them back to the original counted turns..Bike runs,but idles at around 1300 rpm,throttle response seems good,but idle is still erratic..BTW.. I indeed have a Liquid manometer, Sync pro to be exact..sorry,dont know where the "Mercury gauges" came from...Brain Fart....

Edited by n5926g
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Afternoon n5926g

 

I will address some of this for you if you start your own thread on your bike.

 

This is Roger's (TPS Alignment, Idle Speed Adjustment: Beyond Zero=Zero) thread so talking you through a TB set up here is intruding on his thread.

 

You can just copy & paste your query here into a new thread.

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I finally got an LED to use as s test light and checked my TPS position. Just cracking the throttle turns the LED off so it looks like no adjustment to be made there. Also, the voltage measured 372mv. I'm going to think some more about whether I want to tackle the other part of your procedure with the mis-matched TB's or wait until I get a good set made for this bike. Main difference I see would be putting the BBS in the right amount of turns since one is larger than the other. :S

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Pretty Wet, Cold and Windy here yesterday, back at it today though.

 

Roger, my plug looks like this:

Plug1.jpg

 

And there is nothing in it at all:

Plug2.jpg

 

I did a zero=zero on the bike this morning to bring it back to a known state. Idle was around 1350 rpm, tps was at 375 mV, idle LED was ON (it goes out when you start the engine by the way).

 

I backed off the stop screws a little each side till I had an steady synced 1100 rpm idle, tweeking with the BBS which now have some room to move if required. TPS was now at 145 mV. There is a point where idle drops off quickly so it wants a steady hand to lock it off without moving the stop screw. I forgot to check the idle LED here. I then adjusted the TPS to give me 375 mV again, the idle LED was ON and I synced the cables.

 

It's running better than ever. I always had a issue of a sudden power jolt when coasting through a roundabout and bringing throttle back on. Power on is now a lot smoother, the jolt is greatly reduced. I want to keep an eye on Fuel economy now to see if there is any gain there but it was worth the effort for me, thanks.

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Robin,

 

The blue plug is nothing more than a cover for the diagnostics connector which is the black connector with the wires coming out of it. Pin 2 is the ABS diagnostic, pin 1 I believe is the motronic connection. This is where you want to connect your LED for the TPS adjustment.

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roger 04 rt
Afternoon guys, I have been following this thread,and it has been very interesting...I have the original Zero-Zero procedure printed out,and have finally got the two correct part number throttle bodies for my 1100...I plan to do the procedure yet again either tomorrow,or one day next week...Guess my question here is...do I use that procedure? I have a Fluke 77 DVM,and mercury gauges...

 

In your situation I'd leave them as is.

 

I read later that your TBs and TPS have the original pint, so I'm wondering: why you would think of zero=zero, or my suggested procedure?

 

Also noticed you had counted the turns in your TBs, how many were they turned out?

 

You could use the zero=zero procedure if you started by setting the TPS to 250 mV, not 10 mV. Then maybe start with the BBS at 2 1/2 turns (I'm not sure). There is no reason to start at 10 mV since (as I mentioned in the second post of this thread) the Bosch spec for the part says ZERO degrees is at 250 mV.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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roger 04 rt
Pretty Wet, Cold and Windy here yesterday, back at it today though.

 

Roger, my plug looks like this:

Plug1.jpg

 

And there is nothing in it at all:

Plug2.jpg

 

I did a zero=zero on the bike this morning to bring it back to a known state. Idle was around 1350 rpm, tps was at 375 mV, idle LED was ON (it goes out when you start the engine by the way).

 

I backed off the stop screws a little each side till I had an steady synced 1100 rpm idle, tweeking with the BBS which now have some room to move if required. TPS was now at 145 mV. There is a point where idle drops off quickly so it wants a steady hand to lock it off without moving the stop screw. I forgot to check the idle LED here. I then adjusted the TPS to give me 375 mV again, the idle LED was ON and I synced the cables.

 

It's running better than ever. I always had a issue of a sudden power jolt when coasting through a roundabout and bringing throttle back on. Power on is now a lot smoother, the jolt is greatly reduced. I want to keep an eye on Fuel economy now to see if there is any gain there but it was worth the effort for me, thanks.

 

Robin, can you open your electrical box and shoot a photo? The coding plug we are talking about is in the middle row of that box, left hand side.

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roger 04 rt
Hey Rodger,...you know of StepToe from the other site.

Hey you contacted him to see what his take is on this subject?

He had posted much about this like 10+ years ago at ADV Rider and UKGSer.

Having had someone who's already been down this road could really be an asset.

 

He seems a good guy but he doesn't usually respond to new development threads.

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roger 04 rt
Pretty Wet, Cold and Windy here yesterday, back at it today though.

 

...

 

I did a zero=zero on the bike this morning to bring it back to a known state. Idle was around 1350 rpm, tps was at 375 mV, idle LED was ON (it goes out when you start the engine by the way).

 

I backed off the stop screws a little each side till I had an steady synced 1100 rpm idle, tweeking with the BBS which now have some room to move if required. TPS was now at 145 mV. There is a point where idle drops off quickly so it wants a steady hand to lock it off without moving the stop screw. I forgot to check the idle LED here. I then adjusted the TPS to give me 375 mV again, the idle LED was ON and I synced the cables.

 

It's running better than ever. I always had a issue of a sudden power jolt when coasting through a roundabout and bringing throttle back on. Power on is now a lot smoother, the jolt is greatly reduced. I want to keep an eye on Fuel economy now to see if there is any gain there but it was worth the effort for me, thanks.

 

With the process you used you essentially got back to where a z=z procedure would have put you if you started at 250 mV instead of 10mV. How many turns out are you on each TB?

Edited by roger 04 rt
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fusebox.jpg

 

I'm guessing the plug your talking about goes in the empty hole. Never seen one :)

 

BBS turns out? Left is one turn Right is one and 3/4.

Locking down the stop screws behind the TB's is a real pain.

But it's running really well.

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roger 04 rt

Thanks Robin, the coding plug, if present, goes in the empty white socket. No plug, is correct for what you're doing.

 

I would say your BBS screws are in a little far but that makes sense given the procedure you uses. Z=Z opened your throttles 2 degrees and setting the TPS back to 187 mV closed them just over a degree. So the are now at 0.8-0.9 degrees I believe. 2-2.5 turns on the BBS and 0.5-0.6 degrees might be better but like you said the throttle stop adjust will fall off quickly. But maybe not so quickly if the BBS are open more.

 

Thanks for your measurements and efforts.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Afternoon guys, I have been following this thread,and it has been very interesting...I have the original Zero-Zero procedure printed out,and have finally got the two correct part number throttle bodies for my 1100...I plan to do the procedure yet again either tomorrow,or one day next week...Guess my question here is...do I use that procedure? I have a Fluke 77 DVM,and mercury gauges...

 

In your situation I'd leave them as is.

 

I read later that your TBs and TPS have the original pint, so I'm wondering: why you would think of zero=zero, or my suggested procedure?

 

Morning...My LH screw was about 3/4 turn from seated,and the RH was about 1.5 turns out..she runs better,but just not as "smooth" as I think it should...

 

Also noticed you had counted the turns in your TBs, how many were they turned out?

 

You could use the zero=zero procedure if you started by setting the TPS to 250 mV, not 10 mV. Then maybe start with the BBS at 2 1/2 turns (I'm not sure). There is no reason to start at 10 mV since (as I mentioned in the second post of this thread) the Bosch spec for the part says ZERO degrees is at 250 mV.

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Update...Tried the usual TPS adjust for 380MV at the TPS,so far so good...THEN decided to use the diagnostic connector method to see if it switched from a low state(throttle closed) to high state(just above closed)..I don't have an LED here at home,but a lot at the office..at any rate I used my DVM, grounding pin 3,and monitoring pin 1...NO transition at all..Tried 3 different(assumed good) TPS modules...I would think that the DVM would reflect some sort of transition....

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roger 04 rt

Understand, are your TBs and BBS bores clean?

 

My bet is that a z=z procedure won't change your sense of smoothness. Would you like to improve idle, cruise or accel smoothness?

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roger 04 rt
Update...Tried the usual TPS adjust for 380MV at the TPS,so far so good...THEN decided to use the diagnostic connector method to see if it switched from a low state(throttle closed) to high state(just above closed)..I don't have an LED here at home,but a lot at the office..at any rate I used my DVM, grounding pin 3,and monitoring pin 1...NO transition at all..Tried 3 different(assumed good) TPS modules...I would think that the DVM would reflect some sort of transition....

 

Pin 1 needs an LED (with integral resistor) to 12v to create a pull up. Without it you won't see a transition. If you have an10K resistor you could connect it to 12 then you DVM would see a transition.

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Update...Tried the usual TPS adjust for 380MV at the TPS,so far so good...THEN decided to use the diagnostic connector method to see if it switched from a low state(throttle closed) to high state(just above closed)..I don't have an LED here at home,but a lot at the office..at any rate I used my DVM, grounding pin 3,and monitoring pin 1...NO transition at all..Tried 3 different(assumed good) TPS modules...I would think that the DVM would reflect some sort of transition....

 

Pin 1 needs an LED (with integral resistor) to 12v to create a pull up. Without it you won't see a transition. If you have an10K resistor you could connect it to 12 then you DVM would see a transition.

 

OK, Makes sense...Will pick it up at the shop tomorrow...Thanks!

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nortonbrian

Roger, dirt rider and every one that contributed to this post, a big thank you. Did the re adjustment as Roger suggested and I am really pleased with the results. Just got back from a quick 40 mile test ride, it's 97 in the shade today so the bike got good and hot. Idle is to spec, and throttle response off idle is very crisp. No banging in the exhaust and I can't detect any surging.

The tps is very sensitive when setting it off the bike, takes a little patience to get the reading. Finally the bbs are responding to adjustment. As you can see, I am one happy camper, having spent many hours trying to get results with the zero-zero method. I would like to hear from other members who have used this method and compare results.

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