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New purchase 02 1150t w/ only 7K miles & she SURGES!


robofavo

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Hi, found a lovely but neglected 02' 1150 RT w/ only 7K miles! But boy does she surge...highway speed are tolerable, but lower engine speeds, 2-3500 she runs rough - what should by my first, 2nd & 3rd attempt to cure the surging beast? Otherwise I love everything else about this bike. Left behind my '91 ST1100 that ran as smooth as a turbine. The RT1150 is just so much more comfortable for distance riding. thanks for any input - Craig.

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All the basic maintenance should be in proper order. Then try the following.

 

If you are technically enthused you enjoy reading THIS. All 63 pages...

 

You'll also find other reading on AF-XIED on other sites. Roger04 RT did extensive research/development. Marked improvement.

 

Should help out with your problem.

 

:wave:

 

 

Edited by LBump
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Hi Craig -

Before you start adding fuel system controllers definitely do the maintenance as stated above. Beyond fluids and filters, get the throttle bodies and valves as they should be.

 

Maybe check this out if you need a how-to

 

http://www.ibmwr.org/r-tech/oilheads/R11Manual/Oilhead_Maintenance_2-25-02.pdf

 

However, STAY AWAY from the Super Tuning section by Rob Lentini. Much of it is wrong.

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Craig, first of all welcome to the board. As others have stated; before you try anything else make sure that the TBs are synchronized and the valves are properly adjusted. I had the same bike and never had an issue with surging. Proper scheduled maintenance is the key. I hope you enjoy many happy miles.

Ride well,

John

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Morning Craig

 

 

Unfortunately when the 2002 1150RT (early single spark 1150RT's) are running factory correct they do surge at light throttle in the 2K-3.5K RPM range. (It's just the way that the single spark 1150 BMW boxer engines operate)

 

I haven't ever ridden an unaltered 11500RT "single spark" that I couldn't get to surge at light steady throttle in the 2000-3500 RPM range.

 

If you want a factory fix then convert to dual spark cylinder heads (that is how BMW engineering handled it)--OR-- add more fuel in the form of an aftermarket fuel controller (like the AF-XIED)

 

You can & should do a good tune up & valve adjustment but that won't stop the surging. (you need more fuel in the 2K-3.5K operating range to stop the surging & no amount of valve adjustment, or TB balance, will add that needed extra fuel as the hot engine light throttle fueling (basically surging zone) is controlled by the o2 sensor.

 

A quick fix to reduce the light throttle surging (won't eliminate it though) is to find a fuel source without any alcohol in it.

 

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What DR said.

Enjoy the bike.

But don't lug it.

Move through the 2000-3500 range ASAP.

Not a cure, but the bike will be much different running along at 4500+.

Some don't like that feeling in the lower gears, but it gives you instant throttle response if needed and eliminates some/most/all surging depending on you individual bike and conditions.

Again, look into the mods as DR said, but rev the puppy and avoid the damn surge range as much as possible.

Shouldn't be that way, but it is.

Best wishes.

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I'll be labeled as a heretic, but you can also simply disconnect the O2 sensor. It requires lifting the tank, which requires removing the bodywork so it's not entirely simple, but in my experience it will cure surging.

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Hi Craig, If I were you I would, before doing anything, remove the fuel injectors and send them to RC Engineering for cleaning and testing. Your bike is 14 years old and has no doubt not been ridden much. RC Engineering charges $24 per injector and turn around is quick as in one day in same day out and they do a great job as well. Believe me I wish I had done this when I first acquired my pristine "93 RS. Then, as D.R. says get yourself an AF-XIED and away you go. But spend the $48 on the injectors as well. Oh, and if nobody has ever tweaked on the throttle body stop screws then DON"T DO IT as it won't help anything.

 

As far as disconnecting the O2 sensor on an 1150 goes..don't do that either.

 

Believe me I speak from experience!

Edited by JamesW
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As far as disconnecting the O2 sensor on an 1150 goes..don't do that either.

 

Believe me I speak from experience!

 

What went wrong when you did it?

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dirtrider, If I may, I have a question that's been bothering me. I recently purchased from the classifieds an '03 1150 RT-P with 29K miles and it runs great. I mean really great. I only maybe felt a hint of surging on one ride. When I was looking for it. Extremely slight. (I have owned other BMWs of this era before, that did surge noticeably and I once fitted a booster plug to an '04 that surged and that seemed to cure it.)

 

Now, just loose in the radio box was a light salmon colored relay. The seller I bought from said "That's that thing that makes these bikes run like crap."

 

So I google it and it's listed as "a relay for catalytic equipped BMWs". I look in the fuse/relay box and don't see anything that jumps out at me as missing. There IS a central white location with no relay in it, but it's also shown as empty in my owner's manual.

 

So, finally, the question is, is changing out this relay for something else, or removing it altogether a common practice or something you've heard of?

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dirtrider, If I may, I have a question that's been bothering me. I recently purchased from the classifieds an '03 1150 RT-P with 29K miles and it runs great. I mean really great. I only maybe felt a hint of surging on one ride. When I was looking for it. Extremely slight. (I have owned other BMWs of this era before, that did surge noticeably and I once fitted a booster plug to an '04 that surged and that seemed to cure it.)

 

Now, just loose in the radio box was a light salmon colored relay. The seller I bought from said "That's that thing that makes these bikes run like crap."

 

So I google it and it's listed as "a relay for catalytic equipped BMWs". I look in the fuse/relay box and don't see anything that jumps out at me as missing. There IS a central white location with no relay in it, but it's also shown as empty in my owner's manual.

 

So, finally, the question is, is changing out this relay for something else, or removing it altogether a common practice or something you've heard of?

 

 

Afternoon George

 

What you are talking about is called the CCP-- that basically controls what fueling/spark map the fueling computer uses.

 

On the 1100 (MA 2.2) bikes removing the CCP from the fuse box can reduce light throttle engine surging significantly. On the later 1150 (MA 2.4) bikes removing the CCP can help some areas of surging slightly but that usually hurts the runability in other places.

 

On the 1150 (MA 2.4) bike the best bet is to retain the stock CCP & work with the fueling (aftermarket fuel controller or o2 sensor spoofer) to improve the surging)

 

A booster plug really doesn't do much for the 1150 bikes as the fueling in the surging riding zone is controlled by the o2 sensor so adding a booster plug is quickly learned around so the closed loop fueling is right back to where it was before adding the booster plug.

 

ccp_zpsrfrmegv1.jpg

 

 

Edited by dirtrider
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OK, I see your picture just loaded. Thank you. Yeah, that's the spot that's unoccupied on mine. I guess I'll plug it in and see what happens. But like I stated, this bike ran fantastic with this relay removed.

 

Re: the booster plug. Doesn't that trick the sensor by making it think the temperature is lower than it actually is?

Edited by George S.
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Hi Jim, Keep in mind that I disconnected the O2 sensor on an '04 R1150RT (recently sold and replaced with a '10 FJR1300A) that uses a 2.4 Motronic ECU rather than a 2.2 ECU and the results were very rich running and some back-firing as well. Disconnecting the O2 sensor on my 1100RS worked OK.

 

P.S. Love the FJR :) People talk about the heavy weight of the FeeJer but to me she's a light weight compared to the top heavy RT.

Edited by JamesW
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Re: the booster plug. Doesn't that trick the sensor by making it think the temperature is lower than it actually is?

 

Afternoon George

 

Yes, the Booster Plug tricks or spoofs the intake temperature sensor input BUT, your 1150 bike doesn't use that info for fueling control in closed loop. The 1150 bases it's closed loop fueling & even some of it open loop fueling on the o2 sensor so anything that a Booster Plug would add, fueling-wise, is quickly learned & adapted back out.

 

Put a Booster Plug in an 1150 (MA 2.4) bike if you want (it won't hurt anything) but it is basically a waste of money as the fueling computer learns what the Booster Plug trying to add & eventually removes it.

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Ok. I got it. Thank you for the explanations. I wasn't going to try a booster plug since the bike is running so well, but I tried it once in the past and I thought it had worked.

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Before using an Innovate Motosport LC-!, I disconnected the O2 sensor and I used a homemade Booster Plug. The bike was a lot more funnnier to ride than stock. My bike is a 2003 twin spark. The LC-1 is a step over the previous setting. To make your homemade booster plug simply buy another Bosch air temperature sensor you connect in series with the one you have on your bike. I found mine on eBay for nothing. Bosch AIT are used in many other vehicules. As DR and others mentionned, Booster Plug and it's derivatives are efficient only if O2 sensor is disconnected.

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Yes, a solid full tune-up would be 1st bench-mark in determining what will make it run smooth... thanks to for the other tech info...that would be step 2. Very gratefully for your interest and response. I am a little dismayed that the Germans have as many technical glitches with the air/oil heads considering how many years they have been making them! -Craig

 

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Thanks John, will most likely suffer through late Fall with the "surge" and spend the winter months getting things ironed out for the Spring...It's surprising there are so many different comments on this topic - If I had known it was this deep I probably would have chose a different mount...but I'm impressed by the bikes handling and wind management since riding an ST 1100 for 8 years....thanks again.

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DR - I really miss a low revving motor... yes, in some shake-down rides, I did find joy around the 4-5K rev area... and excellent throttle response - however, I will chase down a few lower cost fixes via the comments from Tallman, and others. Switching the twin spark heads sounds like an expensive route to go...I'd probably just assume switch horses at that point. Really like everything about the bike with the exception of the surging, and well... that clunky tranny... it's a never ending quest for two-wheeled joy...

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Ok, I do appreciate the advice, but will most likely try the AF-XIED route after routine maintenance and tune-up... stay tuned - thank you for your most excellent comments and advice .... happy trails!

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Don't be so hard on the BMW. I just came back to the boxers after a stint with Honda. Even with some light surging and a clunky trans, I wouldn't go back. I bet your BMW beats the Honda in handling, comfort, wind protection, power, torque, etc. After a while you'll not even notice a clunk here and there.

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George,

Thanks for your words of encouragement, I'm into my new ride for the long haul, as with all my bikes. I've always admired the longevity, simplicity and dedication Beemer owners have to their brand. I'll be reporting back in as I work out the bugs in this pristine r1150rt. I still consider it one of the best looking bikes BMW has made..very sculptural and yes, it is one the very best handling bikes I've ridden...

Stay tuned!

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Craig, I'm sure your issues will get settled to your satisfaction. With that low mileage, was the bike sitting for a spell before the seller sold it to you? If so, one of the first things you should do is run a tank or two of fuel with Seafoam added to it. Then move on to the maintenance list.

Edited by George S.
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I have an 03 R1150RT that I have owned for 13 years. I was once where you are now. I read through all these tuning ideas and tried most of them. Made my head hurt to read them all again. Bought it new and it ran like an old 2 stroke from day one. Mechanics shrugged and simply stated that "they all do that". I don't know if Techlusion is still in business,but that unit solved the vast majority of the surging. I have to try to make it surge under very light load around 3200 RPM. You can go crazy (and broke) trying to tune the surge out without a fuel nanny.

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Craig,

I'll throw in my $.02...

 

I've got an '03 that I've been messin' with for a few years now. It was moderately surgey, ...sometimes. These single spark 1150s are just super sensitive to balance.

 

If I bought another '02 or '03 right now, here is what I'd do:

 

1. I'd pop out those fuel injectors and send them off to RC Engineering to get cleaned.

2. The usual new spark plugs and valve adjust.

3. I'd swap out the O2 sensor with a new one.

4. After reinstalling the FIs, I'd get an AF-XiED and install that. I'd verify that the pink CCP was installed and I'd set the AF-XiED to 8.

5. TB Balance.

 

Then, I'd smirk at all the posts about the '04 being the best year because of the twin sparks. :/ (my stick coils have never failed ;) )

 

Good luck.

 

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I have an 03 R1150RT that I have owned for 13 years. I was once where you are now.

Yours is a twin spark though, isn't it?

If it is, we are comparing chalk and cheese. The twin spark is easy to tune out surge. Some single sparks are so bad you never can.

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In addition to the maintenance stuff like valve lash, keeping the revs above 3k and getting the fuel injectors cleaned (get them cleaned before you sync), I'd check the fuel pressure and return flow. The submerged hoses don't really like getting dunked and then allowed to dry and with the low miles on the bike, there is a possibility that some are starting to crack from storage issues, especially if E10 was being used like it is most places. When my friends' low mileage R1100S started developing cracks shortly after he bought it from someone who hadn't ridden it in a couple years, it exhibited rough running and surging at partial loads as the first symptom. It was also down on power at the top end, but without another bike as reference, he didn't notice that.

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Besides getting the injectors cleaned which I suggested back a few pages I would also install a new fuel filter and an in-tank fuel line kit all available at Euromotoelectrics. In fact I would put euromotoelectrics in my favorites list. Good stuff and they beat BMW for price by a bunch.

 

In fact when it comes to injector cleaning I've decided to make that a required every two year maintenance item for my R1100RSL as well as fuel filter change.

Edited by JamesW
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2003 is Single Spark....

 

Some (late 2003) are twin sparks

 

Morning legarem

 

All 2003 1150RT's built in 2003 were twin spark. Most 2003 1150RT's built in 2002 were single spark. There was a month or so in late 2002 (December) that it could go either way. (well at least according to my BMW build records anyhow)

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Hi George,

Yes, the bike was sitting for almost 5 years... I'll try the Seafoam route first. Thanks for your words of encouragement... I love everything else about the bike - just want to get the rough-running engine details sorted-out so to experience this bike to it's fullest potential.

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Hi Hal26,

Thanks for your added comments - I'm confident with all the gracious comments and info that this surge can be contained...when you refer to a "fuel nanny" are you referring to the "plug & play" AF-XiED O2 Sensor Manipulators that are available?

Thanks again for your comments.

-Robofavo

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Greiffster:

Thanks for your comments-

I'm beginning to read very similar experiences and remedies - it's interesting that some bikes of the same vintage required different levels of remediation to cure the surge or at least reduce it. One of the comments noted on his new '02 purchase the bike "ran like an old two-stroke from day one". Amazing. These bikes do so much so well - I'm giving RT's a try after riding an Honda ST1100 for a decade. The ST Ergos and wind deflection were just not as comfortable for day-long rides as I've found the 1150 - even the stock RT saddle is an improvement. It might be a month or so before I can move through all the remedies, but will update the posts as I do for others as well. The BMWSportTouring community as been invaluable..thanks again.

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Robofavo

I have not kept up with the latest fuel "nannies". Mine is a Dobeck Techlusion from waaaay back when I bought the bike new,and they still sell an updated version. I have been very happy with it. I am sure the latest/greatest AF-XiED is probably better since it is much newer. If you use Seafoam you will need to change oil immediately since so much of the carbon and Seafoam will wind up in your crankcase. I would just get the latest and greatest AF-XiED or the Dobeck Techlusionand start there before jumping thru all these hoops. If you have service history on the bike you may want to check when the valves were last adjusted as well as throttle body sync. If it were mine I would buy a "nanny" (that is what I call these devices)and run the dickens out of it before I spent another dime on it. Try not to overthink it. The "remedies" are a pain in the posterior...I tried most of 'em ($$$$$$$$$) before I bought my Techlusion I am almost certain that this will transform the bike. I put one on mine 13 years ago....best money I ever spent on it. My Harley has one as well!

Edited by hal26
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Hi Craig - I have an '02 R1150RT. You are getting excellent advice here. Get the maintenance done first and ride for a while to get a feel for how she runs when everything is set correctly. In my case that step took my RT from being a rental to being a keeper.

 

I still had light surging in the 2K-3K range though. I could control it with a careful throttle hand, but after about 15K miles I'd had enough and Saturday (9/3/16) I installed an AF-XIED. I've only been on it for a couple hours since the install, but I felt no surging anywhere. It putted along between 2K and 3K with no drama. It ran smoother everywhere (It will never be as smooth as your ST1100). Power delivery from 2K to red line was very linear, no bumps, no dips, the engine spun up a little faster and 6th gear was actually useful at less than highway speeds. It was fun before but now it's REALLY nice to ride...

 

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Jackndeanie, Your experience with the XIED is the same as most who use it or the LC-2. Some also report a slight increase in idle rpm, which should be brought back down, many also report a lower exhaust note.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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HI Jackndeanie,

Thank you for your comments, I've located a factory mechanic in my area and will be working through the basic maintenance first as you have suggested. Fall is just around the corner (upper midwest is pretty nice for riding) and don't want to sideline my ride until Winter. I'll be working through the "kinks" late Fall and Winter and expect to have this pristine R1150RT ready and smoothed out for next Spring. I've really appreciated all the comments folks have posted. Have really been appreciating all finer qualities about this bike the more it's been ridden. The ergonomics is what has really been appreciated the most. Now I see what everyone has been ranting about all these years. Especially spending long days in the saddle - has been quite enjoyable. Will report back as I make progress. Happy trails!

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I did everything that was posted on this site and mine ran pretty good, then I purchased a Techlusion and installed it myself. Still running like a top today!

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