Jump to content
IGNORED

2003 R1150RT Rough Running


destes

Recommended Posts

Hi Everyone,

 

I'm having a rough running problem with my RT and I'm hoping that someone here can point me in the right direction.

 

On a recent trip from Ann Arbor Michigan to Interlochen Michigan, my 2003 R1150Rt suddenly developed a harsh vibration and lose of power. The rider behind me even said that he could tell right away that something had changed in the exhaust sound. We pulled over to take a look, and the following is a detailed description of what was done/looked at. There's a lot of detail here in the hopes it makes it a bit easier to help figure out.

 

First thing we did was check the plugs, pulled both out, both had spark. The right cylinder's plug was looking a bit crusty but the left one was normal looking. One of the guys said to check if one of the throttle cables had come out of the ferrul, but both cables were seated properly. At this point we decided to get of the road, find an auto parts store and swap out the plugs.

 

I limped to the nearest store and we swapped out the plugs, with no change in the running. We decided to look a bit deeper and took off the plastic on both sides. We found the vacumm lines on the bottom of the T/B were both dry and cracked. One of the riders had some vacumm plugs so we capped the lines and started it up. Still the same. We pulled both injectors and saw that they were both spraying fuel, and we could hear the pump start up when the ignition was switched on so ruled that out. The mixture screws were pulled out and checked, cleaned and returned, with no change again. It was found at this point that if we turned the right hand screw all the way in, there was no change at all in the rough running, but if we even turned the left hand screw a quarter turn, the engine would almost die. I'll mention here that the bike will idle, just barely though. This led us to think that it was definitely something with the right cylinder.

 

There wasn't much else we could do in the parking lot, with the tools we had on hand. I made my way to the nearest BMW shop to see if they could figure it out, while the other riders continued on north to meet up with the rest of the club. I got there around 4:00 in the afternoon, they closed at 6:00. I talked to the mechanic and said that if he could figure it out by closing time, great, but if not, I needed the bike ridable to limp home, a 2 hour ride. Here's what they did.

 

They checked the throttle sync and adjusted. Checked the valve clearances, they were loose and were adjusted to factory specs. Fixed the two vacumm lines that we had disconnected and capped. Found that the throttle body plate bushings are worn and leaking air. They hooked it up to the computer but didn't see anything out of the ordinary. The engine ran marginaly better, but was still rough and lacking power. I noticed that after limping home I had used almost a half tank of fuel to go approx 100 miles, so milage was crap also.

 

My thinking is that it might either be the coil or plug wires, I get sparks on both sides, but is it a good strong spark? Or the same thing with the injectors, I get spray on both sides but is it enough on the right cylinder? This happened all of a sudden, no real changes in riding, we were just cruising along the highway doing about 60mph. If someone can point me in the general direction, something I can test out or check, to help diagnose this, I'd be eternally grateful. Otherwise, I'm off to the dealer to let them fix it. Thanks in advance for your time and help.

Link to comment

Morning destes

 

 

As Lee mentioned a compression test would sure be a good starting place.

 

I presume that you have a single spark engine as you only mentioned (2) spark plugs? If by chance your engine is a twin spark engine (upper plug stick coils & lower plug conventional coil) then I would suspect the R/H upper stick coil going bad.

 

As a rule when a 1100/1150 BMW boxer looses power & starts running bad while running down the hiway the first thing I usually suspect is a split or leaking "U" shaped high pressure hose inside the fuel tank (loss of power, poor idling, etc) but that effects both sides equally. With your seemingly R/H side (only) issue that doesn't point so much towards that "U" hose but still worth a test.

 

To test the fuel pump & in-tank hoses just remove the fuel return hose at the quick disconnect, then on the return hose coming from the rear of bike use something to hold the inner check valve open, then point that hose into a container & while holding the check valve open turn the key on (you should get a couple of seconds of fuel coming out of the fuel return hose. If no fuel or very little fuel coming out of the return hose then suspect a split "U" hose or fuel pump issue. You should also have fuel coming out of the return hose with engine running (careful with this as you don't want a vehicle fire)

 

If you have a single spark engine then the very same coil sparks both sides so you can remove both spark plug wires from the spark plugs then measure the secondary resistance from one spark plug wire clear though to the other spark plug wire (measure from the metal end inside the spark plug wire boots)--you need to see somewhere in the 15K to 25K range (no open). If not in range then look for a bad R/H spark plug wire or wire pulled loose from ign coil.

 

Any chance at all that your bike has a Techlusion or other fueling modifier box?????? If so then suspect that thing might have moisture in it & try completely disconnecting it. (if moisture gets into a Techlusion it can REALLY screw up the fueling control)

 

It does sort of sound like a R/H cylinder issue but on the chance it isn't (JUST) a R/H cylinder problem then you might try disconnecting the o2 sensor for a quick ride & test. I have seen the o2 sensor pig tail fall down & get burnt onto the exhaust causing all kinds of engine runability issues. (or at least check the o2 sensor pig tail routing)

 

If nothing done in the last service to bring on the problem (always start your diagnostic thinking with what was done at last service) & you don't have a Techlusion full of moisture, & you pass the fuel return flow test then my thinking is a burnt valve so definitely do a compression test.

 

 

Link to comment

Thanks to the suggestions, I figured out that there was only about 40psi compression on the right hand cylinder. So now I guess I'm down to it being one of a few things, but at least I know what's going on, so I fell better about that. I'll see if my son's got a bore scope at his work and maybe I can narrow it down a bit further. I'm talking to a couple of the guys in the club who have home shops where I might be able to repair it on my own (with help). Hoping I can get to it this, or next, weekend. I'll be sure to post here when I find out what the problem is. Thanks again for the help.

Edited by destes
Link to comment
... there was only about 40psi compression on the right hand cylinder....

 

Sudden loss of power. Valves found to be out of adjustment. Now 40 psi in one cylinder. No visible oil smoke from the exhaust before or after the event?

 

It seems likely that the sudden loss of power is related to the low compression. So, what causes sudden loss of compression? Hard to imagine the piston rings giving away suddenly. And if you blew a hole in the top of a piston, then you'd probably pressurize the crankcase, and cause a number of noticeable problems. Seems more likely that you damaged a valve. That's my guess. With that and $5 you can buy a cup of coffee.

 

I was curious when I saw the title of the thread, because my 2004 R1150RT started running rough during my latest summer tour. My problem turned out to be Throttle Bodies that mysteriously shifted from perfectly synchronized to badly out of synch, gradually over a period of 3000+ miles.

 

I suppose the good news for you is that if you have a damaged valve, it should be pretty easy to repair. Keep us posted.

 

Cap

Link to comment

Morning Destes

 

Did you guys stay at Cycle Moore Campground. (is Steve feeling better?)

 

On your bike problem-- I doubt that you will see much with a bore scope as it's u-s-u-a-l-l-y a burnt (leaking) exhaust valve that causes the problems. If "0" compression then you might see a chunk missing out of the valve but with 40psi cranking compression it probably won't be real noticeable. (might even be a chunk of carbon caught under a valve margin)

 

A leakdown test will probably be way more productive than a bore scope (even a home brew leakdown test will probably easily show where the problem lies )

 

In any case before tearing that cylinder head off be sure to do some (lots of) research or ask lots of questions about the job.

 

BMW cylinder head R&R isn't a big job but some things can go very wrong if not done correctly, or with great care. Those things can add MAJOR work & expense to the job (such as, when breaking the cam drive gear bolt loose it is ever so easy to break a cam chain guide & in most cases that then requires engine removal & engine splitting to repair (correctly). (I guess what I am saying is: IF you get friends to help then make sure that they have experience in working on the BMW boxer--or at least understand the pitfalls that could cost extra time & money) .

Link to comment

Well, I think I've found my problem. I brought a bore scope from work, the test lab has a nice one that has a side facing camera as well as a front facing one. Through the side facing one I can see all of the valves and cylinder wall. Here's what I found.

 

BK8K0110.JPG

 

And here's a couple of other shots inside the cylinder.

 

BK8K0112.JPG

 

BK8K0113.JPG

 

My question now is this, is the carbon buildup caused from running lean? I'll mention that the bike has a Rhemus exhaust on it, it was installed when I bought it last year, and it currently has about 55,000 miles on it. There's no fuel modifier box on the bike. One of the things that the dealer mentioned was that the T/B bushing were worn and leaking air. Could this have caused the bike to run lean hence the carbon buildup, leading to the breaking of the edge of the valve? I looked inside the left hand side, just to look, and it has the same build up as the right, minus the bits you see in the pictures. With the piston at the bottom of travel, the cylinder sidewalls look OK, no scoring or gouges.

 

I guess I'll start tearing into it this weekend, get a better view of the damages, and start ordering parts. D.R., We have a couple of excellent builders in the club, plus my neighbor was a bike mechanic at a shop for quite a few years, so he's got all the tools I might need. Plus he's already offered to help out. :clap:

 

I'll keep everyone posted.

 

D.R. The rest of the club stayed at Cyclemoore, I limped back home from Greenville to Pinckney. I didn't hear about anybody named Steve, but Vince Reno fell out of his chair and had to go to the hospital, but I heard he was back the next day.

 

 

Link to comment

Lean running causes very clean combustion. Most likely you had oil getting into the combustion at some point.

 

Also, your bike doesn't run appreciably leaner with your after market exhaust.p since your Motronic easily adapts to extra air, if there is any.

Edited by roger 04 rt
Link to comment

 

 

 

My question now is this, is the carbon buildup caused from running lean? I'll mention that the bike has a Rhemus exhaust on it, it was installed when I bought it last year, and it currently has about 55,000 miles on it. There's no fuel modifier box on the bike. One of the things that the dealer mentioned was that the T/B bushing were worn and leaking air. Could this have caused the bike to run lean hence the carbon buildup, leading to the breaking of the edge of the valve? I looked inside the left hand side, just to look, and it has the same build up as the right, minus the bits you see in the pictures. With the piston at the bottom of travel, the cylinder sidewalls look OK, no scoring or gouges.

 

I guess I'll start tearing into it this weekend, get a better view of the damages, and start ordering parts. D.R., We have a couple of excellent builders in the club, plus my neighbor was a bike mechanic at a shop for quite a few years, so he's got all the tools I might need. Plus he's already offered to help out. :clap:

 

I'll keep everyone posted.

 

D.R. The rest of the club stayed at Cyclemoore, I limped back home from Greenville to Pinckney. I didn't hear about anybody named Steve, but Vince Reno fell out of his chair and had to go to the hospital, but I heard he was back the next day.

 

Morning Dale

 

Steve & Shirley own Cycle Moore, Steve was feeling pretty bad earlier this year when I was up there.

 

Worn TB throttle shaft bushings have very little effect on the BMW boxer fueling or running lean. At idle or just off idle the engine vacuum is highest & throttle plate is mostly closed so that is where the leakage is most obvious. (there isn't much engine loading at those throttle openings). At road speed/road load the throttle plates are open more so vacuum is lower & the percentage of throttle shaft leakage vs total air flow past the throttle plate is very small. Plus the o2 sensor corrects for any small air flow discrepancies.

 

Did you run your compression test with the throttle held wide open? If so do you remember what the L/H side compression was? If it is high then you probably should remove the L/H cylinder head & decarbon that side also. That way you will end up with matched compression on both sides.

 

As Roger mentioned it is usually oil use (oil burning) that causes all that carbon.

 

Have you opened the air box drain valve to see how much oil drains out the bottom?

 

Any chance that your air filter is very dirty or plugged up? That can cause oil to be sucked in through the crankcase vent system & into the combustion process.

 

On that valve burning-- that is usually/sometimes caused by a piece of carbon breaking loose & getting caught between the valve & valve seat causing a leak, then a hot spot, then a cut through.

 

Is your engine currently using much oil? If so then you might have a cylinder wall glazing issue-- If so then you might want to also remove the cylinders while you have the cyl heads removed to deglaze the cylinder walls (those cylinder walls are nikasil so are very very hard & difficult to deal with)

 

AirBox-2_drain_vent_zpsb48d8ac2.jpg

Edited by dirtrider
Link to comment

As I read your original post, I'm sure my thoughts were pretty close to what Lee was thinking (a nod of familiarity when he suggested a compression test). He and I, almost simultaneously, experienced this exact failure about two years ago. I picked up some great advice from him, DR, and number of other folks on the forum.

 

I chose to go pretty deep with my repairs (both sides, de-glaze the cylinders, scrub the pistons, new rings, new exhaust valves, completely re-build the heads), so kinda spendy and a fair chunk of down-time, but I've been really pleased with the results - engine runs much better.

 

Those are some awesome borescope pix. Must be a nice set-up.

 

I'm happy to provide any insight that I gleaned from my experience. Good luck wrenchin'.

Link to comment
As I read your original post, I'm sure my thoughts were pretty close to what Lee was thinking (a nod of familiarity when he suggested a compression test). He and I, almost simultaneously, experienced this exact failure about two years ago. I picked up some great advice from him, DR, and number of other folks on the forum.

 

I chose to go pretty deep with my repairs (both sides, de-glaze the cylinders, scrub the pistons, new rings, new exhaust valves, completely re-build the heads), so kinda spendy and a fair chunk of down-time, but I've been really pleased with the results - engine runs much better.

 

Those are some awesome borescope pix. Must be a nice set-up.

 

I'm happy to provide any insight that I gleaned from my experience. Good luck wrenchin'.

 

Wayne, a question. With the Nikasil barrels, how did you de-glaze them? As I understand it, Nikasil barrels can't be bored, etc? Did you simply run a honing stone through the cylinders? Is that enough to de-glaze?

 

thanks, RPG

Link to comment

Hey RPG,

 

Yes, I did a fair amount of reading on this, and there's the full range of thoughts out there about how best to deal with a Nikasil bore, because it's a super tough but very thin layer. Some say to not touch it at all, while others have a variety of recipes for de-glazing. I felt that I had to do something as my engine was using a fair amount of oil (at 47K miles). I'm sure that's what contributed to the excessive carbon build-up in the combustion chamber, and that build-up caused the the eventual exhaust valve failure. I bought my bike at 15K miles and I can only guess as to how it was treated during that time - specifically engine run-in.

 

I have to admit that I delineated a bit from DR's sage advice. He advised to use 360 grit wet/dry with mineral spirits (by hand), and then red ScotchBrite on the ends of the arms of a standard stone-type hone (between the stones and cylinder walls), using a drill to spin the hone, coordinating the stroke and drill speed to match the original cross-hatching.

 

In the end I opted to use one of those flex-hones from Brush Research (some people call it a dingle-ball hone). 240 grit aluminum oxide is specifically recommended for a Nikasil engine cylinder, sized a little larger than the bore - 4-1/8" dia size is what I used. Only 3-5 strokes clockwise, then 3-5 strokes counter-clockwise is recommended - again, coordinating the stroke and drill speed to roughly match the original cross-hatching. I also bought the corresponding bottle brush to clean the bores afterward. I saved a little money and got everything from EngineHones.com. The Brush Research website has some advice and instruction, but I think I actually got better info - even some Nikasil specific advice - off the EngineHones.com website. A little bit of Googling will also get you additional info to help you decide.

 

Some of my experience is in THIS THREAD, including some pix of my cylinder bores post de-glazing. I'll admit that I wasn't 100% sure of the outcome (definitely thought this through a few times in advance), but in the end I was very happy with how easy it was to accomplish, and even happier with the finish I achieved.

Link to comment
Hey RPG,

 

Yes, I did a fair amount of reading on this, and there's the full range of thoughts out there about how best to deal with a Nikasil bore, because it's a super tough but very thin layer. Some say to not touch it at all, while others have a variety of recipes for de-glazing. I felt that I had to do something as my engine was using a fair amount of oil (at 47K miles). I'm sure that's what contributed to the excessive carbon build-up in the combustion chamber, and that build-up caused the the eventual exhaust valve failure. I bought my bike at 15K miles and I can only guess as to how it was treated during that time - specifically engine run-in.

 

I have to admit that I delineated a bit from DR's sage advice. He advised to use 360 grit wet/dry with mineral spirits (by hand), and then red ScotchBrite on the ends of the arms of a standard stone-type hone (between the stones and cylinder walls), using a drill to spin the hone, coordinating the stroke and drill speed to match the original cross-hatching.

 

In the end I opted to use one of those flex-hones from Brush Research (some people call it a dingle-ball hone). 240 grit aluminum oxide is specifically recommended for a Nikasil engine cylinder, sized a little larger than the bore - 4-1/8" dia size is what I used. Only 3-5 strokes clockwise, then 3-5 strokes counter-clockwise is recommended - again, coordinating the stroke and drill speed to roughly match the original cross-hatching. I also bought the corresponding bottle brush to clean the bores afterward. I saved a little money and got everything from EngineHones.com. The Brush Research website has some advice and instruction, but I think I actually got better info - even some Nikasil specific advice - off the EngineHones.com website. A little bit of Googling will also get you additional info to help you decide.

 

Some of my experience is in THIS THREAD, including some pix of my cylinder bores post de-glazing. I'll admit that I wasn't 100% sure of the outcome (definitely thought this through a few times in advance), but in the end I was very happy with how easy it was to accomplish, and even happier with the finish I achieved.

 

Waynerd,

 

Just read your entire thread you referenced above. VERY NICE write-up and pics!! Your "Engine Quit" thread is a first class, blow-by-blow (no pun intended, but it works well here) on your top end odyssey.

 

Am very curious about your ring break-in experience and the long term results (oil consumption, compression differences, any re-carbonizing) especially with the very slight score you found after deglazing the cylinders.

 

One difference between your and destes' experience that puzzles me is why your engine lost total power, completely quit, while his kept running on one cylinder. It would seem that you would have had some kind of ignition on the good cylinder during the troubleshooting. Does the 1 year newer Motronic somehow sense a problem and shut it down completely?? If so, how did you get both fuel and spark but no ignition?? Please understand I'm NOT questioning your veracity, just trying to figure out, get a little more insight into these mysterious and enigmatic Teutonic trundels we love so much!!

 

 

Link to comment

Hey Lowndes,

 

Thanks, though I feel like I never really wrapped up that thread. The stuff I learned was the product of info I got from a bunch of different sources, along with some just plain "wrenching exploration". I'd really like to tie it all up.

 

So with running-in the new rings, I have tried to follow THIS ARTICLE from the FAQ section. I think I learned about it from one of Lee's threads. I've put about 5K on the rebuild and I still use some oil, though nowhere near the rate I was before. Sorry, I have not done a compression test (though good idea), and I have not inspected for new carbon build-up, though I will soon as best I can. I wish I had access to a slick borescope like destes.

 

One of the biggest improvements that I have seen since the rebuild (and I am totally thrilled) is the complete absence of any engine pinging. I dropped down to mid-grade and have observed absolutely no pinging under any condition. I know it's because I scrubbed off all that carbon from the piston faces and head - not from new rings - but I just want to really emphasize the huge benefit from doing this.

 

Yes, I was surprised that destes was able to limp home, and for such a long distance, with essentially the same damage. Maybe his exhaust valve didn't have as much damage? Though, I think he measured similarly low compression as me. You make a very good point, and I cannot explain the difference. Absolutely no offense taken with your questions. I'm happy to share what I can.

Link to comment

Hi everyone, so after a bit more reading , here and on other forums, I've decided that this is more than I can handle. I don't really have the space, or the tools to do this, so I'm going to drop it off at the dealer this week and let them fix it. Thanks for all the great information everyone, I've learned quite a bit. I'm bookmarking this and the other threads in here for future reference.

Link to comment

Weynerd,

 

THANKS for the follow-up!!

 

Maybe DR knows why yours totally quit.

 

The pinging or pre-detonation as I understand it, can be caused by several things; compression too high for the octane rating (caused by design or by carbon buildup reducing the chamber volume) and/or hot small points in the combustion chamber acting as "glow plugs". These can be carbon deposits on the piston or head, or spark plug electrodes or threads protruding. Looked like yours had the deposits.

 

Did you investigate the oil breather into the air box that DR described as a possible source for the carbon buildup??

 

 

Lowndes

Link to comment

Lowndes,

 

I could believe that the carbon deposits in my engine possibly contributed to both phenomena - higher compression and hot spots. The combustion chambers were very crudded up.

 

I've checked the airbox a few times. I always get about a 1/4 teaspoon whenever I pull the drain plug, including just tonight - not much - but something. I guess you could surmise there's not much because a bunch of it is getting sucked back into the engine. Tough to know for sure, though I have never noticed any oil film on the walls of the intake tubes or throttle bodies.

Link to comment

Wayne, stay with that break-in procedure.

 

I followed it back in '04 with my new RT. I switched to Amsoil synthetic around 12k, when it stopped using oil. Today, at 90k, I don't even bother to monitor the sight glass as it basically never changes between the 6k changes.

 

No pinging either.

Plugs are always nice and white (well, at least the main's are).

 

Just got a new car and I'm breaking it in the same way. We'll see how it does.

 

RPG

Link to comment

That first picture doesn't look like just Carbon build-up. It looks like the exhaust valve wall in the upper right has failed. I would take another look at that with the valve open instead of in the closed position to inspect both mating surfaces. You might get away with just a valve replacement if it has failed but I would want to know the shape of the valve guides and valve seat too.

 

You can be sucking oil due to the breather box being filled. Laying the bike over while still running or over-filling the oil at oil changes .... so can excessive valve guide wear.

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...