Oil Leak at engine housing and cylinder head - does this sound right to you

Hello All:

Long time lurker, first time cannot find an answer, so now I post:

I have a '97 R11RT that I bought four years ago with 1,800 miles. Now approaching 30k miles and I have oil leaking from where the cylinder heads bolts to the engine housing - both cylinders. I also have oil leaking out of bottom of alternator cover too. Not sure if they are connected issues or not. The local BMW shop simply says; "replace gaskets" and tell me it will be $2k to $2.5k to repair. (can't actually get them to give me a written estimate, but that's a story for another day)

An independent mechanic with BMW experience told me that if the engine gets real hot, the cylinder heads can loosen a bit when it cools. I did get it extremely hot one time in rush hour traffic last summer. It did start to leak late last summer. Coincidence? He said that the gasket is metal and that he could reduce the oil leak dramatically (possibly) by checking the torque on the cylinder heads. He said it might still weep, and I'd only have to wipe ups some oil a few times a year.

Does this explanation and repair idea make sense to you?

From my experience, a 20 year old bike, even with low mileage would benefit from checking the cylinder head torque. I have solved several head gasket oil leaks on various makes and models by simply re-tighting to spec. I'd say let the indy shop give her a go. And $2000-$3000 is prob. all the bike is worth. Hell, I paid 2K for my R11RTL last year with 7K on the clock and almost mint. And loaded.

Hello All:

 

Long time lurker, first time cannot find an answer, so now I post:

 

I have a '97 R11RT that I bought four years ago with 1,800 miles. Now approaching 30k miles and I have oil leaking from where the cylinder heads bolts to the engine housing - both cylinders. I also have oil leaking out of bottom of alternator cover too. Not sure if they are connected issues or not. The local BMW shop simply says; "replace gaskets" and tell me it will be $2k to $2.5k to repair. (can't actually get them to give me a written estimate, but that's a story for another day)

 

An independent mechanic with BMW experience told me that if the engine gets real hot, the cylinder heads can loosen a bit when it cools. I did get it extremely hot one time in rush hour traffic last summer. It did start to leak late last summer. Coincidence? He said that the gasket is metal and that he could reduce the oil leak dramatically (possibly) by checking the torque on the cylinder heads. He said it might still weep, and I'd only have to wipe ups some oil a few times a year.

 

Does this explanation and repair idea make sense to you?

Morning Colorado Jeff

Not enough info to determine if that re-torque will help or not.

First off we need to know EXACTLY where the oil leak is coming from. You say oil leak is coming from where the cylinder heads bolt to the engine housing?? The cylinder heads don't bolt to the engine housing as there is a cylinder bolted between the cyl head & engine housing.

If the oil leak is coming from the cylinder base gasket area or from the cylinder head cam chain cavity area then re-torqueing the cylinder heads will not help.

Also, with you having a 1997 1100 bike your model is right on the changeover of original cylinder head gaskets to the later Multi-Layered Steel (MLS) cyl head gaskets. 1100 engines built before (April 28, 1997) were more prone to head gasket leaks so were updated to the later (MLS) cyl head gaskets for customer leakage complaints.

Basically, before we can make an informed comment on whether or not a simple re-torque can/will help we need to know EXACTLY where the oil is leaking from. So any chance you can take a picture of your engine showing EXACTLY where the oil leak is coming from & post it here? Once we know exactly where your oil leak is coming from we can then give you a better idea on how/what is required to repair it.

Or, can you tell us what arrow below most closely points to your oil leak area?

D.R. is your man! I am curious to know if your also using full synthetic oil.

Well, I can't disagree with the more thoughtful comments from D R above. If you aren't comfortable tracing and finding the leak, I'm sure the shop could trace it down for you using dye and an ultraviolet light if necessary. Good luck.

Thank you for your advice eburr. You nailed it, that's close to all the bike is worth. If I pay the $2k to fix, then what? Sell it? Drive it until there's another $1k problem? Or sell it as is for next to nothing? I just want to ride...

They did the trace and showed me while it was on the lift. Unfortunately I cannot get them to email me the estimate, which would provide far more detail. When I asked the service manager to email me the estimate after he just gave me a rough, off the cuff cost; he said; "well, I suppose I could take a picture of the estimate..." Twice now he's failed to follow through on emailing me the estimate.

Good Morning D.R.: I took some images in the parking lot. If these are not good enough, I can remove the lower tupperware this evening and take some better images.

Left Side

Right Side

Where do I find the manufacture date?

Thanks D.R.!

MFG date on VIN plate on fork IIRC

Hi PAS: I am using BMW Advantec Pro SAE 15W-50, which as I understand it is a semi-synthetic oil. Need to find something cheaper, no doubt.

Thanks Bud, I did look there earlier and did not see it. I'll take a longer more thorough look.

Afternoon Colorado Jeff

The engine serial number should be stamped on a pad on the right side of the engine crankcase just below the cylinder. You can kind of see in there without pulling the plastic but I’m not sure if you can read the entire number or not.

In any case see what you can find. There will probably be 2 lines of number & some letters. On the 1100 bikes the engine serial number & build date might not (probably won't) match the bike's serial number on the frame.

The build week should be in that engine number somewhere (like 18/xxxx/xxx or something similar (depends on where bike was originally sent to)

In any case if you can decipher the number sequence anything up to 18 for build week would have the older leak-prone head gaskets, anything from 18 up build week should have the later (better) head gaskets.

In looking at your pictures I really can't tell much other than you DO have a leak.

It might not even be a cyl head gasket -- It m-i-g-h-t just be valve cover inner donuts leaking (seeping)-- the ones around the spark plug chambers.

If you look closely from the front of engine you should see a passage next to the exhaust pipe area that goes all the way back into the spark plug area. There is a rubber hat looking "O" ring in there that seals the valve cover around the spark plug.

If those hat looking "O" rings leak they can seep oil out the front through that open passage.

You need to clean as much of that oil leaking residue up as you can then watch where the oil is seeping from. (a presoak of WD-40 is good to loosen up congealed oil leakage stains)

Or possibly just replace those inner valve cover "O" rings then see if your oil leakage goes away.

Thanks D.R., I'll look for the manufacturing date and review the other ideas this evening. Much appreciated!

BTW, I called the BMW shop who was supposed to send me the estimate more than a month ago. He still hasn't finished it. He says he'll have it done around noon tomorrow. That should provide more details, which I will add once I obtain it.

At the dealership I worked at we did a LOT of head gasket upgrades back in 99-2000 on the early oilheads.

Gave a good chance to de-carbonize too.

That being said, my 1999 RT has about 54k and the left head gasket has been weeping for about 6yr now and I have no plans on replacing them until it gets worse.

BMW warranty used to have 3 stages of oil leak to describe leaks.

A weep, a seep or a drip. The weep/seep was noted on the paperwork but work wasn't done (in most cases) until it reached "drip" status.

The pics show drip to me but not so terrible ( if indeed H.G.)

Hi D.R.

It appears to me that the engine was manufactured in Sep '97, here's an image if you wouldn't mind confirming:

I checked the valve cover inner donuts. Could the oil come down that open passage and exit to the lower inside of the exhaust pipe? See area inside orange circle in this image:

The donut might be the issue if yes, otherwise it looks like the head gasket?

Here's the right side:

I got a good look at where the cylinder attaches to the engine block and there is almost no oil in those locations.

I'll clean it up before we ride on Saturday. The source may be more obvious then.

Thanks

Thanks for the input Tri750

At the dealership I worked at we did a LOT of head gasket upgrades back in 99-2000 on the early oilheads.

 

Gave a good chance to de-carbonize too.

 

That being said, my 1999 RT has about 54k and the left head gasket has been weeping for about 6yr now and I have no plans on replacing them until it gets worse.

BMW warranty used to have 3 stages of oil leak to describe leaks.

A weep, a seep or a drip. The weep/seep was noted on the paperwork but work wasn't done (in most cases) until it reached "drip" status.

The pics show drip to me but not so terrible ( if indeed H.G.)

Hi D.R.

 

It appears to me that the engine was manufactured in Sep '97, here's an image if you wouldn't mind confirming:-- I'm pretty sure that 09 means 9th week not 9th month. All the info I have says the engines were stamped with week of build not month of build. Unfortunately that would put your engine build prior to the 18th week where the new (re better) head gaskets were phased into production.

 

 

 

I checked the valve cover inner donuts. Could the oil come down that open passage and exit to the lower inside of the exhaust pipe? See area inside orange circle in this image:--I can't see the passages clearly in the pictures. Any signs of oil inside those passages?????

 

 

The donut might be the issue if yes, otherwise it looks like the head gasket?

 

I got a good look at where the cylinder attaches to the engine block and there is almost no oil in those locations.-- That tells us that the oil leaks are farther outboard so either head gaskets or donuts.

 

I'll clean it up before we ride on Saturday. The source may be more obvious then.--That is a good plan.

 

Good Morning:

I can't see the passages clearly in the pictures. Any signs of oil inside those passages????? I see no oil in the open passages, except in the area that I indicated inside the orange circle.

Thanks!

Hello:

The local BMW shop confirmed today that the head gaskets are leaking. I got a repair estimate for just over $2k. The independent mechanic said he'd replace the head gaskets for $1.5k, or do a valve adjustment for $250 and torque the cylinder head to see if that reduces the leak to a point where I'd only have to wipe it up a few times a year.

I certainly don't want to waste the $250, so do you guys in your infinite wisdom and experience think that checking the torque on the four studs might have a chance for some level of success? Or should I just bite the bullet and get the head gaskets replaced for $1.5k?

Thanks All for your input so far!

Hello:

 

The local BMW shop confirmed today that the head gaskets are leaking. I got a repair estimate for just over $2k. The independent mechanic said he'd replace the head gaskets for $1.5k, or do a valve adjustment for $250 and torque the cylinder head to see if that reduces the leak to a point where I'd only have to wipe it up a few times a year.

 

I certainly don't want to waste the $250, so do you guys in your infinite wisdom and experience think that checking the torque on the four studs might have a chance for some level of success? Or should I just bite the bullet and get the head gaskets replaced for $1.5k?

Evening Jeff

It sounds like your bike has the older style head gaskets. If so then I have my doubts that re-torqueing will do much to stop the oil leaking.

If it were my personal bike I sure would check the cyl head torque & if found loose then see if a simple re-torque would slow the leak. BUT, personally I wouldn't spend $250.00 to do that.

If you have access to a torque wrench & can judge a nut turned 1/2 of a turn then re-torqueing them yourself isn't that big of a deal.

Any chance that the original owner had the head gaskets replaced under warranty but never took the bike back for the suggested re-torque?

I have replaced a lot of head gaskets in my garage on v-twins, is it more complicated on these flat twins? If so, is it because of the cam chain?

Hey, Colorado Jeff,

YOU CAN DO a valve adjustment with the tools in the tool kit. It really helps to have a PAIR of feeler gauges to set BOTH intake and exhaust at the same time.

$16 will get a pair at BBY: BBY feeler gauges

The first time is the hardest, only because you are unsure. After that; EZPZ.

If you can operate a ratchet, YOU CAN retorque the heads yourself. The hardest part is setting the torque wrench to the proper torque setting. If you can set an alarm clock you can set a torque wrench. Sorry, that's the truth. Set the wrench, put the right size socket on it, push down smoothly until you HEAR and FEEL a "CLICK". There are some finer points, BUT THAT'S ALL THERE IS to it. Well, ok, you may have to convert NM to Ft-Lbf. Go to converterer

Here's one:

https://www.amazon.com/Locking-Extension-Sockets-contained-Bastex/dp/B01N0TKEAZ/ref=sr_1_2?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1489794127&sr=1-2-spons&keywords=torque+wrench&psc=1

The thing about tools is, as expensive as they are, they are SO much less expensive than paying someone else to do it. Also, you only pay for the tools one time.

Just my thoughts on it. But I enjoy doing this stuff on my bike.

Lowndes

Harbor Freight typically has torque wrenches on sale in the $10 range.

 

YOU CAN retorque the heads yourself. The hardest part is setting the torque wrench to the proper torque setting. If you can set an alarm clock you can set a torque wrench. Sorry, that's the truth. Set the wrench, put the right size socket on it, push down smoothly until you HEAR and FEEL a "CLICK". There are some finer points, BUT THAT'S ALL THERE IS to it. Well, ok, you may have to convert NM to Ft-Lbf. Go to converterer[/ur

 

Morning Lowndes

On the BMW 1100/1150 boxer there is a little more to it than that. Each nut must be initially backed off one at a time, then the torque wrench is only used for the initial low-torque starting point of 20nm. From there each nut must be clocked (exactly) an additional 180° total to properly tension the stud.

Still not rocket science but not a simple set, pull, click.

Regarding the above, THEN we would get the occasional bike where the studs were "pulled" by a previous owner or shop who cranked on a torque wrench until it clicked.

THEN there was the addional charge to install a Time-Sert .

So to the original poster, be aware of this pitfall as well.

If it were me, I would clean the thing up with Super Purple or Magic Orange or Green or whatever colored degreaser works for you, do your good ride this weekend and see how it looks Sunday afternoon.

If you can love with it for a while, great. If it's nasty oily already, I would get it fixed correctly.

Can. I ask what indi shop ? There are a couple I'm familiar with in Co.

Torque angle adapters are available from many stores for around 15 dollars. Learning to operate a torque wrench is pretty straight forward. Investing in these tools is very worthwhile if you intend to work on your motorcycle. I too would clean up the area and ride to see where it is leaking from. Spray foot powder works well to pinpoint leaks. Especially small leaks. Just spray on cleaned and dried area and check frequently.

Mike

Thanks DR, your opinion is much appreciated!

Hi Lowndes, thanks for the vote of confidence! As I get older, Dirty Harry's words speak to me even stronger; "A man's got to know his limitations" and for me, this is it. I am fairly handy and I do know how an internal combustion engine works, but if it isn't bolt on or bolt off (think water pump, starter, alternator, etc.), I am all thumbs. I've tried over the years because as a poor young man, I only could do it myself. However, it was rare that I could get it right if it was more sophisticated or requires some level of precision.

Having said that, I do hear what you're saying and appreciate your input.

Hi Tri750, the independent shop is in Loveland, on highway #34. It is called Rocky Mountain Motorsports.