motofiala Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 2002 R1150R ~55,000mi Turn signals inoperable. Started with left not working, now both don't work. Switches at hand controls seem to be working. I was going to replaced the turn signal relay but it's priced at $160. Is it likely the relay failed? Is there an analog for this relay that will work just the same without the BMW price? Thanks in advance. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) 2002 R1150R ~55,000mi Turn signals inoperable. Started with left not working, now both don't work. Switches at hand controls seem to be working. I was going to replaced the turn signal relay but it's priced at $160. Is it likely the relay failed? Is there an analog for this relay that will work just the same without the BMW price? Thanks in advance. Morning motofiala Are all the turn signal bulbs OK? What doesn't work? Do ANY of the T/S bulbs light up when you push the handlebar switches? Do any of the bulbs light but just no flashing? Does your emergency flashers work? Give us a little more info & we can probably help you find your problem . If it turns out to be the flasher relay then they are usually a lot cheaper buying a used one on E-Bay. Added: a standard turn signal flasher unit won't work on your BMW motorcycle as your stock signal relay has (9) separate connections going into it. Edited April 8, 2017 by dirtrider Link to comment
motofiala Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 Thanks...I will check what you asked and let me know. Link to comment
motofiala Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 okay... emergency flashers work all bulbs work left turn signal control works [turns on left signal] right turn signal control doesn't initiate right turn signal turn signal cancel on right does not turn off left turn signal seems like the controls on the right side may be the issue? Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 okay... emergency flashers work all bulbs work left turn signal control works [turns on left signal] right turn signal control doesn't initiate right turn signal turn signal cancel on right does not turn off left turn signal seems like the controls on the right side may be the issue? Morning motofiala Yes, that is very possible. How far do you want to get into this? Do you have an ohmmeter or better yet ohmmeter with DC voltmeter? Link to comment
motofiala Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 I have the gear and always up for learning Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 I have the gear and always up for learning Morning motofiala OK, there are a couple of ways to go after this-- If you can somehow figure out what pins are what at the turn signal relay socket then we can do a lot of the testing there. If you can't determine relay socket pin numbers (or wire colors at those pins) then you will have to follow the R/H handlebar switch pig tail until you can access the connector. The relay socket pin numbers that you are looking for are #4 (TA) & #8 (TR) The #4 has a brown/white wire running to it & the #8 has blue/yellow wire running to it. If you can figure those out then with the key-off & the turn signal relay removed put your ohmmeter on the 200 ohm scale (or lower) then put one probe of your ohmmeter on a clean chassis ground (or neg battery post) then put the other ohmmeter probe on the #4 (TA) terminal in the T/S relay socket-- That should show open. Next, push the R/H cancel button, it should now show closed (very low resistance) If that part is OK then leave on ohmmeter probe grounded & move the other probe to the #8 (TR) relay socket terminal. That again should show open, now push the R/H turn signal switch & it should show closed (low resistance). If those are both working as above then a good possibility that you have a failing turn signal relay. If one or both don't operate as posted above then you either have a bad switch in the one that isn't working correctly or have a short or open in the wire on the one that isn't working. If you can't figure out the relay socket pins then you will have to access the R/H turn signal switch connector (just follow the wire harness down from the R/H handlebar switch area. On the switch side of that connector the brown/white to brown wire should show open-- then show closed when you push the cancel button. The blue/yellow to brown wire should show open then show closed when you push the R/H turn signal button. This should get you started & hopefully give you an idea on what to look for from the switches & connectors. Unfortunately I will be gone for length of time today & can't really say if/when I will be here online again today (might be tomorrow) -- I'm off on a rough single track dirt ride so don't usually take my laptop with me on those. Link to comment
motofiala Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 Thanks so much...I'll dig in and let ypu.know what happens Link to comment
motofiala Posted April 30, 2017 Author Share Posted April 30, 2017 Hi: I wanted to get back to you to thank you for your help. I don't think I am closer to resolution and it is possible I am not diagnosing the issue properly. I tested the harness after removing the relay with my multimeter. In order to understand what I should/should not see, I used the probe on each pin receptacle and then pressed the hazard button, l/h TS button, r/h TS button, and signal cancelling button. I saw no changes in the reading on the meter for any. I believed I should have seen something when pressing the l/h controls, but nothing. So, I may not be using the meter properly. Each time I re-install the relay everything is back to before: l/h TS button activates l/h TS lights, hazard button activates all TS lights, r/h TS button does NOT activate lights, signal cancel button does NOT turn off lights. Again, it is entirely possible that my lack of electrical knowledge/skill is causing me to misdiagnose the issue. At this point and while a pricey option, I am tending to simply paying to replace the relay with either OEM or trying the less expensive Kisan SM-5 signal minder...even though it may not even be the problem and it could be the switch or a wire... Again, thanks for your note to help me try to do this. I just wanted to let you know how things went on my end. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 Hi: I wanted to get back to you to thank you for your help. I don't think I am closer to resolution and it is possible I am not diagnosing the issue properly. I tested the harness after removing the relay with my multimeter. In order to understand what I should/should not see, I used the probe on each pin receptacle and then pressed the hazard button, l/h TS button, r/h TS button, and signal cancelling button. I saw no changes in the reading on the meter for any. I believed I should have seen something when pressing the l/h controls, but nothing. So, I may not be using the meter properly. Each time I re-install the relay everything is back to before: l/h TS button activates l/h TS lights, hazard button activates all TS lights, r/h TS button does NOT activate lights, signal cancel button does NOT turn off lights. Again, it is entirely possible that my lack of electrical knowledge/skill is causing me to misdiagnose the issue. At this point and while a pricey option, I am tending to simply paying to replace the relay with either OEM or trying the less expensive Kisan SM-5 signal minder...even though it may not even be the problem and it could be the switch or a wire... Again, thanks for your note to help me try to do this. I just wanted to let you know how things went on my end. Morning motofiala Your multimeter should work just fine-- just make sure it is set to ohms & a very low scale (like 200 ohms)-- then touch both leads together to verify that it shows 0 ohms (or very low ohms anyhow). Then if you can find the proper terminal locations in the T/S relay socket put the black meter lead on a good clean chassis ground point (or battery (-) post) & the red meter lead into the #8 socket cavity then press the R/H turn signal paddle (the meter should go to very low ohms then back to infinity when the button is released. Then put the black meter lead on a good clean chassis ground point (or battery (-) post) & the red meter lead into the #5 socket cavity then press the turn signal cancel paddle (the meter should go to very low ohms then back to infinity when the button is released. This should tell you if both the T/S switch is working & the cancel switch is working. Just make darn sure that the red meter lead is actually touching the metal terminals in the T/S socket. Link to comment
motofiala Posted April 30, 2017 Author Share Posted April 30, 2017 Dirtrider...I carefully checked the meter again and tested...here's what I found: Socket #1 - got a reading w/o pressing any switches #2 - no reading #3 - L T/S switch when pressed gives a reading #4 - no reading #5 - Hazard button when pressed gives a reading #6 - got a reading w/o pressing any switches #7 - got a reading w/o pressing any switches #8 - no reading #9 to #11 - I don't think there is a wire to these [per the wiring diagram there are only 9 wires in the harness #12 - got a reading w/o pressing any switches If I read your original note correctly, it appears the relay may still be ok but either the switch has gone bad or there is an issue with one of the wires, yes?...again, many thanks for your patience. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 Evening motofiala It does sort of point to open circuits. It could be the R/H switches but that would probably mean both the cancel & R/H T/S switch went bad at about the same time, & that kind of defies logic. Same with open wires, that would mean that both cancel & R/H T/S wires (circuits) went open at about the same time (again sort of defies basic logic) So the most local here is that the brown ground wire going to the R/H grip switch module has an open or has a bad connection at, or in, the R/H switch module. (at least that is where I would start looking anyhow) Link to comment
nrp Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) My 2000 R1100RT has a microprocessor based turn signal "relay" system. I say that because only a microprocessor could create the weird logic it does. It is possible that you have created partial leakage shorts in your wiring harness from salt intrusion that are enough to trigger all sorts of digital logic input errors with that solid state logic. The currents involved are probably a tiny fraction of a milliamp and more than one button may be thinking it is permanently grounded, when it is really just leaking to ground. When you say you have an open (button not pressed), what is the residual resistance to ground? If it is less than say a MegOhm (that's my guess, use a DVM), that could still be interpreted by sensitive solid state logic that the button is pressed. First try disconnect the battery for a few minutes. Then reconnect, allowing the microprocessor to boot up again. Do you get the same logic problem? If so, disconnect again and spray wash out the switches and the relay connector with fresh water, blow out with compressed air, then spray wash again with deionized or distilled water, then dry again with air. Connect the battery up again and see if the logic has changed. Maybe it will even work normally. I have fought this sort of thing on my R1100RT for years. It always goes out to lunch on damp days. I bought a Kisan replacement unit and it behaves the same way. Removing the Kisan (or the BMW) by itself rather than disconnecting the battery does nothing. Only a microprocessor could be so maddening. Edited May 1, 2017 by nrp Link to comment
dirtrider Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 Morning Imgnr It looks like nrp wants to take you in another direction on your troubleshooting. Your problem is just too complex to have 2 people working with you at the same time with different troubleshooting thoughts. So I will back out of this thread & let nrp work with you on this. If you need anything specific from me just give me a PM. Link to comment
Shiny Side Up Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 I'll just add this. I had a left turn signal issue on an FJR and suspected a relay as well. A good friend who works at a Yamaha dealer told me they have relays in stock but they all are collecting dust and have never sold one. He told me to look elsewhere for the issue - especially the wiring harness as they tend to develop wear spots as the motorcycle gets older and vibrations can cause the insulation to wear in places. Bingo found a spot by the triple tree where the insulation was completely worn away and a wire was exposed, touching a metal strength member. Accoding to the wiring diagram and color code... guess which wire it was and it went... Link to comment
nrp Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) Dirtrider...I carefully checked the meter again and tested...here's what I found: Socket #1 - got a reading w/o pressing any switches #2 - no reading #3 - L T/S switch when pressed gives a reading #4 - no reading #5 - Hazard button when pressed gives a reading #6 - got a reading w/o pressing any switches #7 - got a reading w/o pressing any switches #8 - no reading #9 to #11 - I don't think there is a wire to these [per the wiring diagram there are only 9 wires in the harness #12 - got a reading w/o pressing any switches If I read your original note correctly, it appears the relay may still be ok but either the switch has gone bad or there is an issue with one of the wires, yes?...again, many thanks for your patience. What type of DVM do you have? If it is a digital one, it should be able to verify both that the button press info is communicated to the signal module, and that there are not any sneak paths that are making the module think the button is already pressed when it isn't. Shiny Side Up raises a valid point about wire insulation wear and DR has already checked for wire continuity which is all good. But for the record, the pin ins of the module are: pin 1 - +12V switched when ignition on pin 2 - +12V always (presumably to run the 4 way flashers) pin 3 - ground to start left turn signals pin 4 - ground to release turn signals pin 5 - open? pin 6 - right side lights hot Pin 7 - common (ground) pin 8 - ground to start right turn signals pin 9 - ground to start 4 way flashers pin 10 - open pin 11 - open pin 12 - left side lights hot So we are dealing only with pins 3, 4, 8, and 9. The other pins drive bulbs (pins 6 and 12) or supply power to the module (pins 1 and 2). One of the power pins though (pin 2) is always hot - at least whenever the battery is OK. A microprocessor needs a sudden application of full power to properly initialize itself. To do this, you will have to disconnect the battery with the module installed, wait a few seconds, and then reconnect it. See if this fixes your problem by itself. On my bike, allowing the battery to go dead makes the module initialize incorrectly even on simple recharging. The module needs to be installed and then the battery lead connected to get a proper initialization (I think). If the above doesn't work we have to explore the operation of the four grounding inputs. Yes they all need to ground to less than a few hundred ohms BUT they also need to open to a high resistance, such as at least 1,000,000 ohms. Can you measure such a high resistance with your DVM? Verify that this is indeed possible. Note your fingers will conduct electric current for high resistance measurements You may have to use a clean pair of rubber gloves to prevent this. Let me know what you find. Edited May 1, 2017 by nrp Link to comment
motofiala Posted May 7, 2017 Author Share Posted May 7, 2017 Friends...I apologize...I usually only have time on the weekend to work on my bikes. Just wanted to let Dirtrider and others know that I resolved the issue. Without Dirtrider's help...I would have spent hundreds of dollars after guessing wrongly...he got me to focus. I found at the steering head that turning the handlebars to the right, all of the wiring on the right side was being pinched. On top of it, the covering on the wire bundles was cracked and fragmenting. Sure enough, when I took all of that off I found blue/yellow and brown cut...right at the pinch point. A little solder later...and it all works perfectly. I want to say that I am not the most confident mechanic...and I tend to procrastinate fixing things. But Dirtrider's instructions were so clear that with a little persistence on my end, I learned how to test if a relay is bad, how to make sense of wiring diagrams, and how to logically chase down the problem. I always felt electrical issues were out of my league...not anymore. Thanks again to ALL of you for your suggestions and to Dirtrider...truly appreciated and if you are ever in Cleveland Ohio, the food and beverage of your choice is on me. Thanks! Link to comment
dirtrider Posted May 8, 2017 Share Posted May 8, 2017 Friends...I apologize...I usually only have time on the weekend to work on my bikes. Just wanted to let Dirtrider and others know that I resolved the issue. Without Dirtrider's help...I would have spent hundreds of dollars after guessing wrongly...he got me to focus. I found at the steering head that turning the handlebars to the right, all of the wiring on the right side was being pinched. On top of it, the covering on the wire bundles was cracked and fragmenting. Sure enough, when I took all of that off I found blue/yellow and brown cut...right at the pinch point. A little solder later...and it all works perfectly.I want to say that I am not the most confident mechanic...and I tend to procrastinate fixing things. But Dirtrider's instructions were so clear that with a little persistence on my end, I learned how to test if a relay is bad, how to make sense of wiring diagrams, and how to logically chase down the problem. I always felt electrical issues were out of my league...not anymore. Thanks again to ALL of you for your suggestions and to Dirtrider...truly appreciated and if you are ever in Cleveland Ohio, the food and beverage of your choice is on me. Thanks! Morning motofiala Well done, That should hold up for quite a while but my guess is that eventually those wires will break again right next to the solder joint. That wire pig tail running from the switch to the bike side harness is designed to flex & bend over it's length. When a solder joint is put in the flexing part of the pig tail that put a hinge point in the pig tail so that stops the gentle bending & causes a break point right where the solder stiffness ends at the repair. I usually cut those broken wires out back as far as I can easily work going each direction then install a new length of wire to replace the piece that I cut out. I make the repair joints using splice clips & solder with heat shrink over the joint. This puts the repair joints far enough from the flex area to prevent future problems. Bottom line-- you are good for a while but if those wires break again (you will know where to look) then cut the broken wire(s) out & install a new piece of wire with the joints as far as possible from the flex point. Link to comment
nrp Posted May 8, 2017 Share Posted May 8, 2017 My apologies to DR! Sorry to have horned in on his solution. Glad we (he) got the problem solved. I'm gonna look at my steering head a little closer next time the fairing is off. Niel Peteresn Link to comment
motofiala Posted May 8, 2017 Author Share Posted May 8, 2017 I added some wire but I'll keep an eye on it. Link to comment
nrp Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 An update - My 10 yr old Kisan SM-5 had to be rebooted several times and just this summer refused to come alive after several power downs. The wiring checked out so I ordered a new unit from Kisan which works normally. I then busted open the old Kisan only to find evidence of water/salt/whatever? contamination on the circuit board which would explain the erratic behavior under higher humidity conditions. Although the module appears to be hermetically sealed, it definitely is not & I'm gonna find a way to more thoroughly waterproof the unit before there's any chance of any moisture exposure. How? I'm not sure but maybe WD-40 thru a small drilled hole would be a starter. And - if an older Kisan unit seems to hang electrically, break open the housing and rinse the inside several times in distilled water and bake before replacing it. I've done this with industrial electronics, furnace controls etc with good success. FWIW - My 2000 R1100RT has seen very little rain through the years, but the area is exposed to rear wheel spray. Link to comment
SKYGZR Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 I'm struggling w/ the same thing on the '96 RS. RH signal no go. LH is fine, Hazards only fire the LH side. Both bulbs on the RH side have been tested & confirmed working. So did the low ohm test on the relay plug, & both #4 & #8 each show open. When going w/ #8 & switch activation, shows 00.4 ohms. Have yet to pull the tank to trace from the switch, yet all the zip ties have been removed that might have caused any pinching/breakage. Wire scheathing is intact & not brittle or cracked. Currently "stumped".... Link to comment
nrp Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 I'm struggling w/ the same thing on the '96 RS. RH signal no go. LH is fine, Hazards only fire the LH side. Both bulbs on the RH side have been tested & confirmed working. So did the low ohm test on the relay plug, & both #4 & #8 each show open. When going w/ #8 & switch activation, shows 00.4 ohms. Have yet to pull the tank to trace from the switch, yet all the zip ties have been removed that might have caused any pinching/breakage. Wire scheathing is intact & not brittle or cracked. Currently "stumped".... More update for me. I tried the rinse and dry out etc of the Kisan SM-5 unit but was unable to get it to do anything at all. Replaced with a new Kisan which works normally. I have not yet figured out how to waterproof it though When you get an open - how open is it? do you have any residual conductance? or is it infinity ohms? Where do you live? Do you possibly h ave humidity or even salt water problems? Did this happen all at once, and never behaved properly ever after? Link to comment
SKYGZR Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I'm not dealing with any aftermarket unit. This is the stock system. No salt/grime/corrosion...connections are all clean @ the relay in the box under the seat. Link to comment
Twinsig Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 Dirt rider, Still fixing my old bike huh, (actually a buddy's bike). He calls me for help & misc parts from that old girl on the shelf. Literally. This time RT turn sig fail. Thanks DR! Link to comment
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