Final Drive took a dump today

I was so proud of my 2010 RT--it had just turned 60K. I just registered for the BMW-MOA mileage contest, and have earned my 400K badge last year.

Today wife and I were riding thru Red Canyon (outside Bryce Canyon NP), doing the Kodak-moment thing. Just before I mounted up, I happened to look at rear tire. Damn, Black greasy oil on the rear rim and tire. Rear wheel is a tad wobbly and not turning smoothly. The sure tell-tales of the dreaded rear drive failure.

Fortunately, we were only about 75 miles from home, so were able to trailer the bike back to its stable.

I haven't heard of many failures on Camheads. My 1999 RT had two FD failures; my 2005 crapped out at about 80K. Was hoping BMW had improved with Camheads. Apparently not. Or is it just me??

In the past I have had Anton Largiader @ Virginia Motorrad do the rebuild, with excellent results. Nice guy to work with. Will be calling him on Monday to see if I can get an appointment to ship my unit.

It's been a long, cold winter. My wife has a new CanAm, and is itching to do some long trips. Hope this doesn't keep us homebound too long.

Shouldn't BMW have 'replace the crown bearing at 50,000 miles' be a on the scheduled maintenance calendar?

I just had Anton rebuild the FD on my K75S. nice work. took a lot longer than anticipated though. two months. machine shop he uses in california was dragging their feet.

I was so proud of my 2010 RT--it had just turned 60K. I just registered for the BMW-MOA mileage contest, and have earned my 400K badge last year.

 

Today wife and I were riding thru Red Canyon (outside Bryce Canyon NP), doing the Kodak-moment thing. Just before I mounted up, I happened to look at rear tire. Damn, Black greasy oil on the rear rim and tire. Rear wheel is a tad wobbly and not turning smoothly. The sure tell-tales of the dreaded rear drive failure.

 

Fortunately, we were only about 75 miles from home, so were able to trailer the bike back to its stable.

 

I haven't heard of many failures on Camheads. My 1999 RT had two FD failures; my 2005 crapped out at about 80K. Was hoping BMW had improved with Camheads. Apparently not. Or is it just me??

 

In the past I have had Anton Largiader @ Virginia Motorrad do the rebuild, with excellent results. Nice guy to work with. Will be calling him on Monday to see if I can get an appointment to ship my unit.

 

It's been a long, cold winter. My wife has a new CanAm, and is itching to do some long trips. Hope this doesn't keep us homebound too long.

 

Shouldn't BMW have 'replace the crown bearing at 50,000 miles' be a on the scheduled maintenance calendar?

Afternoon BeemerBerg

Unlike the earlier 1100/1150 bikes the 1200 hexhead/camhead final drive doesn't have any preload setup so in most cases the final drive can be left on the bike & JUST the side cover removed.

Then about anybody with the correct flange puller & a heat gun can replace the crown bearing & seals then heat the flange & slide it back together.

You should be able to remove the side cover complete with spool & ring gear, then take that to your local BMW dealer (or independent BMW repair shop) to have a new crown bearing & seal installed (you can easily install the R/H side seal yourself)

Thanks for the quick reply, DR.

Today I removed the final drive from the bike without drama. Upon examination, I discovered a HUGE GLOB of black grease oozing out of the drive:

Just a year ago (15,000 miles ago) I took the bike to Las Vegas BMW to do the Flange Recall. Could the process of heating the flange to remove it have started the disintegration of the bearing seal? I would assume that excessive heat cannot be tolerated by the crown bearing?

Theory:

Extreme heat--> partial melting of crown bearing protective seal--> compromised integrity of seal--> seal failure releasing grease--> lack of lubrication + dirt & grime entering bearing--> total failure of bearing.

Yes, there was the tell-tail vibration coming from my foot pegs when I pulled over. And turning the disk is 'notchy' with a lot of uneven resistance.

Thoughts?

Thanks for the quick reply, DR.

Today I removed the final drive from the bike without drama. Upon examination, I discovered a HUGE GLOB of black grease oozing out of the drive:

 

Just a year ago (15,000 miles ago) I took the bike to Las Vegas BMW to do the Flange Recall. Could the process of heating the flange to remove it have started the disintegration of the bearing seal? I would assume that excessive heat cannot be tolerated by the crown bearing?

 

Theory:

Extreme heat--> partial melting of crown bearing protective seal--> compromised integrity of seal--> seal failure releasing grease--> lack of lubrication + dirt & grime entering bearing--> total failure of bearing.

 

Yes, there was the tell-tail vibration coming from my foot pegs when I pulled over. And turning the disk is 'notchy' with a lot of uneven resistance.

 

Thoughts?

 

Morning BeemerBerg

Yes, an improperly heated, or incorrectly installed, new steel flange could cause the bearing failure. I actually know of (2 )1200 failures shortly after the flange recall.

Some dealers just heat the replacement flange on the hotplate while removing the old one (just as hot as it will get during the removal time)--If the removal takes more time than intended then the new flange gets w-a-y too hot & that can effect the bearing or the bearing seals.

Also, I have heard of the replacement flange getting half way on then seizing so the tec heats the heck out of the flange while on the spline to get it to move all the way on (that surely can't do the bearing or seal any good?)

Well, you aren't the only one having rear drive bearing failures. I've had two rear drive bearing failures in the past 3 years. A 2007 GT and a 2011 RT. The rear drive shaft was fine. Both occurred at the 35k mile mark

The rear drive bearing was replaced both times. Why? Well it wasn't because the rear drive didn't have good clean 180ml of synthetic in it changed twice as much as recommended.The rear drive bearing is not in contact with the the oil. Most people think it is.

The BMW Mechanics I talked with would not give me a clear answer as to why they failed. Further discussion with some experts asked me how I rode. I said high (very if I can get away with it) speed, 2 up, with lots of gear. 49 l top case loaded etc. Under GVW though.

The reason the rear drive bearings from 2005 are crapping out with some riders?????? They can't stand the heat!!! and they fall apart. The rear drive bearing failures are more common than you think, but BMW refuses to give any extended warranty/coverage as they will with other less expensive items like the 2011 switches.

The oilheads had a better robust rear drive bearing design, and I rode my 1999 the same way. No problems and it now has 320,000 km on it.

If you ride a 2005 or newer machine, ride the speed limit solo, your bearing will be fine forever even if you don't change the oil.

Yes, I agree, the large rear drive bearing should be a must replace item at say 50k miles so that people don't get stranded like I have been.

Well, you aren't the only one having rear drive bearing failures. I've had two rear drive bearing failures in the past 3 years. A 2007 GT and a 2011 RT. The rear drive shaft was fine. Both occurred at the 35k mile mark

 

The rear drive bearing was replaced both times. Why? Well it wasn't because the rear drive didn't have good clean 180ml of synthetic in it changed twice as much as recommended.The rear drive bearing is not in contact with the the oil. Most people think it is.

 

The BMW Mechanics I talked with would not give me a clear answer as to why they failed. Further discussion with some experts asked me how I rode. I said high (very if I can get away with it) speed, 2 up, with lots of gear. 49 l top case loaded etc. Under GVW though.

 

The reason the rear drive bearings from 2005 are crapping out with some riders?????? They can't stand the heat!!! and they fall apart. The rear drive bearing failures are more common than you think, but BMW refuses to give any extended warranty/coverage as they will with other less expensive items like the 2011 switches.

 

The oilheads had a better robust rear drive bearing design, and I rode my 1999 the same way. No problems and it now has 320,000 km on it.

 

If you ride a 2005 or newer machine, ride the speed limit solo, your bearing will be fine forever even if you don't change the oil.

 

Yes, I agree, the large rear drive bearing should be a must replace item at say 50k miles so that people don't get stranded like I have been.

Morning Lester V

If heat alone killed those final drive crown bearings then about every rider that carried a load & rode fast in Texas or Arizona would be replacing those bearings monthly.

Heat might be a factor but it sure isn't the primary factor as there doesn't seem to be a direct correlation between heat, or speed, or load carrying on the 1200 bike final drive bearing failures that I have seen or know about.

A few things kill those 1200 bike crown bearings-- The bearing has no chamber vent so could suck some moisture in under the seal if a hot final drive was exposed to moisture (this seems to be more of a GS problem as some riders play off road then ride through knee deep cold water).

The BMW 1200 final drive does have a basic design flaw & that is a what we in auto industry call a design for failure. The crown bearing is a press fit on BOTH the spool & into the cover. That basically means that the spool OD must be machined perfectly, the cover bearing ID bore must be machined perfectly, & the bearing itself must be perfectly built in ID & OD & ball size. (that is a LOT of perfects that need to continually remain in check before & during assembly)

Obviously BMW seems to think that they can keep all those variables in check as they are still basically using the same design.

BMW is also kind of taking a blind-eye approach on this as they don't put any spool OD measurement specs, or cover ID specs, or bearing C factor specs in the service manual so dealer tec's can properly measure for incorrect stack up.

BMW obviously knows about the parts expansion as the temperature of the parts increase as they give a component temperature of 35°C as the max for testing bearing free play. What they don't give the tec's is a minimum bearing play cold.

This is probably the reason that when you asked your BMW mechanic about the failures he couldn't give you a clear answer as to why they failed (BMW doesn't give them the data that they need to measure everything with enough precision to find a parts stack up that is destined to fail)

The one thing that I have seen on some of the 1200 bikes is that on a number of early final drive failures (pre 30K) they have a repeat failure at around the same mileage. Now lately I have see a couple bearing failures that look to be due to incorrect flange recall work.

The other thing that could figure in here (especially in low humidity colder climate areas) is static electricity & tires with no static band. It's difficult to say on the motorcycle side but some automotive wheel bearing failures have been tracked back to rolling-tire static electricity build up then arcing back through the wheel bearing.

On the 50K bearing replacement-- I'm not sure how that would have kept you from being stranded as yours failed well before 50K.

Thanks much for your knowledgeable reply DR. This is the first time anyone has clearly provided reasons for my rear drive failures.

In my case, heat, as you say could be part or all of the issue. For me the water part may be a small factor re the failures as is the static electricity.

On my 07 GT the rear bearing blew apart causing other damage.

On my 2011 the inner seal weeped a small bit and the bearing had to be replaced (so said the dealer who had to order the parts and the tools to replace it) A week later and a large dollar outlay we left). No, BMW would not cover the cost.

When my 2011 rear drive was in the vice I spun the rear drive bearing. It was smooth but did not have grease or lubrication I expected. Any heat or antiwear ingredients must have been completely internal to the bearing itself.

I mentioned the inner seal leak and now plan to use the Castrol saf-xo, Syntrax non LS, or the Mobil 1 non LS. What do you think about this and it's chances of preventing inner and outer seal leaks/weeps so that I have to go through the mandatory bearing replacement when this happens?

Is there any possibility that BMW is not using the best quality bearing they could be? Sometime in the past I heard that there is a ceramic bearing that could be used as a replacement if heat is the issue.

Your thoughts on this please as my 2011 is now sorted out like I want (Wilbers etc) and I plan to keep until at least the 150k miles mark. I doubt that a BMW dealer would install a ceramic bearing but I'm sure someone has the skill set.

You are correct, doing a 50k mile bearing replacement wouldn't have helped me, but as the original poster mentioned, maybe him and others would be helped by this preventative maintenance, as it would be less expensive than having to pay for a full rebuild.

Thanks again DR, you are one of the reasons I am on here and donate to this site.

PS If you are the attending the UN this year a beverage of your choice is on my tab!

Morning Lester V

On my 07 GT the rear bearing blew apart causing other damage.--This can happen especially if the bearing ball separator disintegrates while riding at speed.

On my 2011 the inner seal weeped a small bit and the bearing had to be replaced (so said the dealer who had to order the parts and the tools to replace it) A week later and a large dollar outlay we left). No, BMW would not cover the cost.-- This one I have problem with as how in the heck did the dealer tec know this. A slight seep of gear oil into the bearing only dilutes the grease but the bearing still functions good, is quiet, & the rider would heave no reason to take the bike in for repair. Once the bearing gets to the point where the rider can tell it has failed it is WELL past the slight seep stage & the thing is growling & leaking so any signs of "slight seep" should be well covered up by excessive bearing play & large leaking.

When my 2011 rear drive was in the vice I spun the rear drive bearing. It was smooth but did not have grease or lubrication I expected. Any heat or antiwear ingredients must have been completely internal to the bearing itself. --Yes, the crown bearing on the 1200 bikes has it's own internal grease.

I mentioned the inner seal leak and now plan to use the Castrol saf-xo, Syntrax non LS, or the Mobil 1 non LS. What do you think about this and it's chances of preventing inner and outer seal leaks/weeps so that I have to go through the mandatory bearing replacement when this happens?--I never use & never recommend an LS (Limited Slip) gear oil. Nothing wrong with the gear oil itself but the LS additives are designed & blended to penetrate between those very tight heavy spring loaded LS clutch plates. About all LS additives are now synthetic but years ago the LS additive (back then the LS additive was added to the differential as a separate operation along with the gear oil) was a Sperm Whale oil (no longer made or used) was the BEST penetrating oil that I have ever seen as far as getting lubrication into tight joints or squeaky things. It was so good at getting into tight places that it was used to stop rocker arm to rocker arm ball squeaking on certain engines. I guess I haven't seen any documentation that the LS gear oils will wick under the BMW final drive seals but BMW is very specific on their gear oil recommendation & none are LS gear oil. Also keep in mind that the early BMW 1200 (re hexhead) final drives have no vent so as the final drive heats the gear chamber pressurizes so that can also add pressure to help the gear oil seep into the crown bearing.

Is there any possibility that BMW is not using the best quality bearing they could be? Sometime in the past I heard that there is a ceramic bearing that could be used as a replacement if heat is the issue.

Your thoughts on this please as my 2011 is now sorted out like I want (Wilbers etc) and I plan to keep until at least the 150k miles mark. I doubt that a BMW dealer would install a ceramic bearing but I'm sure someone has the skill set.-- Like most motor companies BMW probably specs the cheapest bearing that will do the job. BMW doesn't release the C rating of the bearing. I wouldn't be to quick to try a different type or different C spec bearing as that bearing is a basic press fit on ID & OD so you need a bearing that has very similar expansion specs. The bearing also needs the correct angular load carrying ability (seems like a LOT of testing involved to go to another bearing type).

You are correct, doing a 50k mile bearing replacement wouldn't have helped me, but as the original poster mentioned, maybe him and others would be helped by this preventative maintenance, as it would be less expensive than having to pay for a full rebuild.--Baring things like water crossings, or bike pressure washing, or poor workmanship during the flange recall the 1200 bikes have fewer crown bearing failures than the BMW 1100/1150 bikes but on the ones that I have seen fail (or know about failing) they seem to re-fail in about the same mileage as the first failure. So if your bike failed a bearing at 35K I guess I would install a new bearing at 30K then carefully split the outer bearing race on the removed bearing & do a full inspection.

Thanks again for the info DR.

Could you please give me your thoughts on the use of the ceramic bearing instead of the one supplied by BMW? i.e. it's availability and experiences so far?

Also, could you please give me your thoughts on the use of the AMSOIL gear oil and their long life gear oil 75w-90. Neither say they are the non LS that I am looking for, but they do not say LS. I guess I could go back to conventional gear oil, changed at 6k miles which would help with the possibility of the rear drive weeping, but some of my rides exceed that mileage and I would prefer to use synth.

Thanx much..

This is what I use for the final drive on my 2012rt. It does not have the limited slip additive. They state this in their description not to be used on LS differentials.

https://products.liqui-moly.com/fully-synthetic-gear-oil-gl5-sae-75w-90-6.html

Even though it's good for extended drain intervals I still service my F/D every 12,000 miles.

Morning Lester V

Could you please give me your thoughts on the use of the ceramic bearing instead of the one supplied by BMW? i.e. it's availability and experiences so far? --I have no experience with a ceramic bearing in the BMW final drive. The drive is designed around a conventional deep groove bearing with very specific performance requirements so I usually let others be the Beta testers when it comes to trying untested parts.

From many years working in the auto industry I have seen a number of supposedly better (new & improved) parts bring on more problems than the cure.

I have seen a fair number of hexhead 1200 bikes & now starting to see some camhead 1200 bikes go well or 100K on the original final drive crown bearings without any bearing failures so that seems to tell us that the OEM bearings can go the distance without issue if the drive is built to correct specs & the seals don't leak from the inside out or the outside in.

Also, could you please give me your thoughts on the use of the AMSOIL gear oil and their long life gear oil 75w-90 Neither say they are the non LS that I am looking for, but they do not say LS. I guess I could go back to conventional gear oil, changed at 6k miles which would help with the possibility of the rear drive weeping, but some of my rides exceed that mileage and I would prefer to use synth.-- That gear oil might work but I haven't ever tried it in the BMW 1200 final drives (it works OK in the transmissions). On the BMW final drives I try to stay with a BMW recommended gear oil as that is what BMW did their durability testing with so it shouldn't have any evil side effects.

Due to the many final drive gear oil changes per liter of gear oil even the BMW expensive gear oil is fairly cheap per change. The Castrol SAF-XO 75w90 is my personal gear oil of choice but now the with the Castrol Syntrax Longlife 75w-90 being available that specs out the same as the SAF-XO so that should also be fine. The Land Rover LNR 7591 (same as SAF-XO) should also be just fine.

Personally I'm not sure I would use a conventional gear oil in the BMW 1200 final drive as the BMW specs pretty well list synthetic gear oil. They don't specifically specify synthetic gear oils but all their recommended gear oils are synthetic.

Lots of other non LS gear oil's will probably work OK but I don't have the time or inclination to research them all so (personally I just use the gear oil mentioned above).

_________________________

Just to substantiate dirtriders comments on standard bearings - my 2011 rt is currently at 91,500 miles (90% of which mileage has been at 'elevated' speed) and the bearings are still fine. My k75 bearing began to fail at about 60k and my 2005 1200rt bearings were beginning to get rough at 110k miles. So I think the indications are that the newer r1200s may have better final drive arrangements these days. Considering ceramic types of bearings seems a bit of an extreme reaction to what may have been a unfortunate statistical anomaly early failure.

Cheers

Richard

Update.

My mechanic (who specialized in final drives, clear back to airheads) says that the bearing's outer seal had indeed failed, releasing all the grease onto the drive housing. The 'glob' was just beginning to fling out onto the wheel and tyre. Once the bearing looses lubrication, everything is downhill from there. I discovered the failure just in time to minimize damage.

He's not sure of the root cause, but asked if I used a pressure washer to clean the bike. Nope, never ever. Just garden hose & water. He said he's seen several FD and other bearing failures from Police Dept 'Authority' bikes, as they are required to keep their machines in a spotless condition. Cops take them to the local do-it-yourself carwash at end of shift, and drop in some quarters. . . .

Lesson: don't squirt ANYTHING in the direction of a bearing. Ever. GS's 'sloshing thru a stream" is probably OK. Rainwater is OK. Both are not coming at the bearing 'at force'.

DR--Thanks for the head's up on NOT using Limited Slip gear oil. Seems like most lubes on the market are LS. I will check my stock.